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DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstration

By Jeralyn, Section Off Topic
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:19:07 PM EST
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A DEA agent is giving a talk to a group of kids. He brags about how professional he is, and how he's the only one in the room professional enough to carry a glock. As soon as the words are out of his mouth, he shoots himself in the foot.

The video is here. [hat tip NORML.)

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    DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstration | 51 comments (51 topical)
    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    I'm really reaching here, but I have to say something right-winged... This should help dispel the myth that government agents have an otherwise unattainable mastery over firearms. Give up your right to bare arms, citizen! If your life is in danger, call the government, and we'll send this guy to protect you. Therefore, the rest of us should have guns, too. (cough)

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:45:22 PM EST
    Actually I think the right-wing position would be to require people (especially women) to cover up their bare arms. However the right-wing doesn't have a lock on the right to bear arms, as TalkLeft has written about here.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:45:22 PM EST
    ...but Sean Hannity said guns are "only dangerous in the hands of criminals"... I know it is inappropriate but I find that story hilarious. I can't stop laughing.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#4)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:56:50 PM EST
    Saw this a week or so ago. Yeah pretty funny, now that you can look back on it, especially his timing. Couple things went wrong. He locked the slide back, but obviously doesn't remove the mag. The guy he showed it to, to make sure it was clear, is also to blame. Thank God no one was hurt. I also have to give him props for the way he handled it right after. Well, except for the part where he wanted to then show them another gun. I think I would have cut the demo short.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:06:38 PM EST
    When i was in the old Army 40 years ago, a youth guy did that, i will never forget the look on his face, poor kid was only 18 years old. but this guy is an ass, and he did it right in front of little ones how insane can insane get. class demonstration of "really stupid people",or suicidal can you get.?

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#6)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    P- “Couple things went wrong. He locked the slide back, but obviously doesn't remove the mag.” Yeah, aside from aiming a gun at his foot and pulling the trigger. After looking at it a couple of times I’m fairly sure the magazine is still in the gun. I’m wondering though, could you retract the slide, pull the loaded magazine, and then free the slide letting the single round just extracted from the clip chamber; and further, could you then discharge the gun without the clip in place? The whole thing is surprising as Glock makes a pretty safe gun; quasi-single action, trigger safety. This is the exact gun my father carries on duty and elsewhere, or at least did; he changes it up quite frequently.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#7)
    by roy on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:41:56 PM EST
    I’m wondering though, could you retract the slide, pull the loaded magazine, and then free the slide letting the single round just extracted from the clip chamber....
    Not exactly. Retracting the slide doesn't extract a round from the magazine, it extracts a round from the chamber. If the extracted round doesn't extract all the way, then freeing the slide can put that round back in the chamber.
    ...could you then discharge the gun without the clip in place?
    Yes, with a Glock and most others. Being able to fire without a magazine is a feature; you can remove the magazine and reload while keeping the ability to shoot (once).
    The whole thing is surprising as Glock makes a pretty safe gun....
    The gun is safe in that it does what it's told to, and doesn't second-guess the user. When the agent pulled the trigger, he said "shoot", and the gun obeyed. (I'm not an expert, don't bet your life on my advice) (Also don't anthropomorphize guns like me, it creeps people out)

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:49:55 PM EST
    So the implication of course is that all of DEA is inept. Why else post this? Nice subjective bend. I now understand why Ward Churchill's idiocy must be representative to all of the left. Personally, I think both of the people mentioned above are fools, but isn't painting a whole group a little below you? Perhaps a little more thought before you throw the next piece of meat into the hyena cage.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:54:47 PM EST
    So the implication of course is that all of DEA is inept. Why else post this? Maybe the implication (as with the posts a while back on the RF tracking devices in classrooms) is that we as a society need to be more careful about what government is doing around and to our children in schools? Maybe because its something TL thought would be interesting to her readers without any particular policy implications? Maybe because, as a criminal defense attorney, TL wants to establish in the public consciousness that having a gun in your hand, and having it discharge and hit something, is not equal to intending to shoot whatever is hit? I could probably think of a dozen other reasons.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:56:13 PM EST
    Well - there's someone who should hear about the difference between "implication" and "inference." Not a single thing is implied by the TL write-up, other than possibly the over-confidence the word "brags" seems to indicate. A lot can be inferred. Apparently timsantabarbara draws the inference that an entire Federal LE agency is inept, and then, not enjoying the inference, tries to put those words in TL's mouth by claiming they were implied. Nope. Sorry.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:59:38 PM EST
    OK, I agree with you on that point..We should be should be wary of those issues. And that agent, should be in some sort of remedial training or something that doesn't make the whole outfit look like fools. I am backing of of my complaint to its posting..

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 05:26:25 PM EST
    Actually, TL chose to identify the guy specifically as a DEA agent and not an (anonymous) "cop," and then chose to negatively describe him as "bragging" in addition to the obvious scorn the self-shooting would evoke. Given TL's view of the WOD, I think her intent is clear. She's happy that a DEA agent made a fool of himself. Note that I don't in any way think she would have been happy had some tragedy have resulted.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 05:28:49 PM EST
    Maybe we should all be grateful that the super cool glock was pointed at the floor at that most "innadvertent" moment and not at one of the students. WTF is someone, ANYONE, doing with a loaded gun in a class room? Was Atlanta not enough of a wake-up call?

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 05:35:46 PM EST
    I am backing of of my complaint to its posting.. timsantabarbara Didn't you get the Never Admit You're Wrong on the Internet memo? Seriously, tho, well done. More like you and the "Internets" would be a much more civil place (places?). .

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 05:43:14 PM EST
    You should have seen the other demonstration out back, when he was feeding little Latino girls to his Doberman. That went off without a hitch. Anyhow, any gun expert knows the protocol is to immediately reload, and shoot the other foot.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 06:49:38 PM EST
    Maybe a hand or a nose, instead of the other foot, would be more instructive and less redundant. I mean once you've seen a DEA agent shoot his foot, well.... And, didn't this happen before? Like a year ago or longer, or is this the same incident? .

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 06:58:31 PM EST
    Paulie, As always, you make no sense.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 07:02:35 PM EST
    Such demonstrations can be safely carried-out with Dummy rounds (ie. Cartridges with all propellant and primers taken out. For added safety, the side of the Cartridge case is perforated with a pin hole).

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 07:31:58 PM EST
    That's why I have an old fashioned .38 SPL revolver. They don't misfire like that.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 07:44:52 PM EST
    Watched the clip and I don´t know whether to laugh or cry. It freaks me out to watch him act so casual around a deadly firearm. I think it was no missfire. After holding up the gun and letting the slide go back in that "cool" kind of movie-style manner, he proceeds with pointing the gun at his foot and pulls the trigger to get that "cool" empty mag *click* sound. Except something goes wrong..

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:24:48 PM EST
    btw, ain´t that the same cool guy starring as the Predator? The resemblance is quite staggering.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 10:11:42 PM EST
    Now I know all DEA guy are gang members. god help the people of this non nation. and to che's lounge, thank god he didn't kill one of the kids, and cp help!

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:47:43 AM EST
    Bos sucio: "As always, you make no sense." You express no shock, no concern, that an agent of the government goes into an elementary school AND DISCHARGES THEIR WEAPON IN AN UNCONTROLLED MANNER endangering the entire class. That's because you're a gun *ssh*l*. You see as a humorous contretemps, correctable with a few gun tech notes. ANY of those children could be DEAD. The principal should offer their resignation. The agent should be retired. But to you it's a joke! Ha-ha, people die! And so it's no surprise that you think yeehaw! is a foreign policy.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:18:00 AM EST
    The sad thing is this clip has been making the rounds on white supremacist sites as an example of how "Stupid" black people are. It's in fact, an example of nothing of the sort. Just like the Nichol's case was not about whether or not the deputy was female. In both cases it had everything to do with poor training or preparation, and a lack of common sense.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:28:48 AM EST
    I thought this clip was hilarious, not for the fact that he shoots himself, but that he tried to play it off -- then asks for an assault rifle while everyone yells "put the gun down!". Who demonstrates gun safety with a loaded gun? Anyway, I had a "fun" childhood experience learning about guns. My dad was showing my brother and me how to use a handgun (unloaded, of course). Sometime after the demo was over he reloaded it, but left it within my reach. I picked it up and, luckily, only put a hole through a chair and into the wall. Any higher and it would have gone through the window and into the neighbour's house. Lesson learned. Guns...uh, yay? =/

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:04:59 AM EST
    WTF is someone, ANYONE, doing with a loaded gun in a class room?
    Exactly Che. If I had a kid in that school, I'd be raising holy hell. No guns in schools shouldn't only apply to the students. So the implication of course is that all of DEA is inept.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:07:02 AM EST
    Continued...hit post in error. I don't think that was the implication of the post...but If you look at the DEA's track record in reducing drug traffic, I'd certainly call the agency inept. Not their fault though, prohibition is an impossible task.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#30)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:13:00 AM EST
    “what was this moron doing with a gun in a school classroom to begin with?” As you may or may not know, almost all school resource officers carry guns. I checked all the usual resources; DOJ, CDC, etc., I can’t find a single incidence of a school resource officer’s firearm involved in an accident, student, teacher, or officer on the business end. What I did find; a school resource officer at the infamous Columbine High School engaged the murdering students with his firearm; action two potential victims credit with distracting the gunmen just as they were about to execute them. I’m not so concerned that cops carry guns into schools. I’m concerned this cop carried a gun into a school. Further, I want to know if he has been relieved of the duties that require him to use a firearm, as he is clearly incompetent.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#31)
    by cp on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:49:26 AM EST
    pig, as usual, sort of interesting, and always irrelevant, comments. the story wasn't about a school resource officer, but a visiting dea agent. i have two children in public school, complete with resource officers. they don't, as a rule, go into classrooms and draw their weapons for "show and tell". perhaps, this nitwit dea agent shouldn't have, either. actually, as i think about it, he should have been arrested, for violating both state and federal laws, regarding firearms on school property, since he was not assigned to the school, nor was he officially responding to a request for help from either the school officials or the school resource officer. at minimum, he's obviously way too stupid even for the dea. they do have standards. granted, they're pretty low standards, but standards nonetheless.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:52:37 AM EST
    Yes what is a fool with a gun doing in a classroom? well most DEA, guys are fools! come on the more i see this video the more i see bin laden winning the war on Terrorism. is that really a cop? and what was he doing with a gun in the classroom? showing the other gang members how to shot people? must be a new government policy? and in the foot, what a pension he will get! Bush wins one more armed conflict for god. In The Classroom on top of that. "mom a cop just shot his foot off" "stop lying" son(1959) "mom a cop just shot his foot off" that's normal son don't think about that any-more just be good and ask your bush to keep you out of the war on terror when you become 15(2010) Amerimex the land of freedom, and the land of shootings in the classrooms, third world.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#33)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:13:06 AM EST
    “pig, as usual, sort of interesting, and always irrelevant, comments.” In my estimation it was relevant. There seemed to be a string of comments, beginning with yours, in the seam of “guns shouldn’t be in school, period”. Perhaps this wasn’t your exact sentiment; if so, certainly disregard my comments. Sort of interesting? Interesting enough to elicit a response; you should place a bit more value on your time. “perhaps, this nitwit dea agent shouldn't have, either.” We know he shouldn’t have; he discharged it unintentionally. Luckily he shot himself; in fact I find it a particularly satisfying that, while cavalierly discharging his firearm in a classroom, he shoots himself.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:47:08 AM EST
    If the mook HAD shot a kid, I'm sure he would have just planted some cocaine and a gun on him/her. Then he would have gotten a medal!

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:51:59 AM EST
    The sad thing is this clip has been making the rounds on white supremacist sites as an example of how "Stupid" black people are. aahhh, now I understand this post by PIL - he hates black people: Posted by: Paul in LA on March 17, 2005 06:43 PM You should have seen the other demonstration out back, when he was feeding little Latino girls to his Doberman. That went off without a hitch.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#36)
    by cp on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:33:34 PM EST
    you're right pig, i wasted 30 good seconds, that i'll never recover, responding to you. your estimation is wrong. school resource officers and a dea agent are not mutually inclusive, and your comparison of the two was totally irrelevent to the issue at hand: a moron, posing as a highly trained dea agent, allowed into a school classroom, where he proceeded to shoot himself (only, thank goodness), in the foot. this, versus the school resource officer, who would have known better, and was not, in any event, involved in the incident.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:35:54 PM EST
    This post's title should be "real-life cop imitates Barney Fife!" As for the 2nd Amendment, I admit it's tricky. I do believe the 2nd Amendment was originally passed to protect individuals' right to bear arms, on the theory that a Second American Revolution might someday be necessary. But defenders of an individual's right to bear arms should keep in mind who are most likely to avail themselves of that right, and who are most likely to find themselves on the wrong end of a gun barrel. Remember, a Second American Revolution has already been attempted. We now call it the Civil War. Furthermore, weapons technology has advanced in ways the Founders could not have anticipated. Does anyone seriously believe the 2nd Amendment should be interpreted to protect individuals' right to bear nerve gas, radiological weapons, or anthrax? After all, it just says "arms," with no limitations or exclusions based on the type of "arms." So, while defenders of a broad interpretation of the 2nd Amendment may be, technically, correct, I'm quite thankful our courts have hewed to the narrower interpretation of protecting only the states' right to organize and arm militias.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#38)
    by Walter on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:42:51 PM EST
    Todays lesson, class...this is my rifle, this is my gun....this is for killing, this is for fun.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#39)
    by roy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:11:11 PM EST
    The agent made multiple serious mistakes. He deserves to be disciplined and severely mocked. He deserves to have been shot in the foot. However, this seems to be an isolated incident. If cops in general, or DEA agents specifically, are spending any significant time educating children about guns, accidents will eventually happen. Maybe more safeguards should be added, but I wouldn't want to end useful educational programs based on one accident among many sessions.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#40)
    by roy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:26:56 PM EST
    Furthermore, weapons technology has advanced in ways the Founders could not have anticipated. Does anyone seriously believe the 2nd Amendment should be interpreted to protect individuals' right to bear nerve gas, radiological weapons, or anthrax? After all, it just says "arms," with no limitations or exclusions based on the type of "arms."
    Similarly, speech over the Internet is not protected. Homes within skyscrapers can be searched without a warrant or used to house soldiers without consent. Data stored electronically can be seized without a warrant. iPods can be taken for the public good without just compensation. Those accused of computer crimes are not entitled to a lawyer. Slow electrocution is not cruel or unusual punishment. I'm not arguing (or believing) that Americans should have free access to anthrax or even machine guns. But too often Fed Gov uses technology as an excuse to weasel out of its restrictions. Those freedoms are ideals to uphold, not obstacles to work around.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:03:13 PM EST
    but I wouldn't want to end useful educational programs based on one accident among many sessions
    . As someone who has been through the DARE program, I can assure you these programs are neither educational or useful. At best they are irrelevant, at worst they are harmful, or in this case potentially deadly. I pretty much agree with your second post...I feel we should always err on the side of freedom.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#42)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:15:32 PM EST
    “keep in mind who are most likely to avail themselves of that right” Criminal use of a gun isn’t covered by the second amendment. Usually when folks argue from the perspective of likely criminal activity it is in defense of a blanket restriction in order to make firearms rare, and therefore difficult for criminals to obtain. “Furthermore, weapons technology has advanced in ways the Founders could not have anticipated.” I don’t agree. Base firearm technology is essentially unchanged; powder, slug, barrel. Of course modern guns are more powerful, accurate, and efficient. Something I imagine the authors had seen reflected in many technologies of their times. And certainly they didn’t expect firearm technology to have coincidentally peaked at the drafting of the constitution; that would be uncharacteristically unreasonable. “After all, it just says "arms," with no limitations or exclusions based on the type of "arms."” I think a reasonable means of deciphering the intent of the framers is to compare the text against the colloquial meaning of the time. At that time arms was taken to reference those weapons an infantryman may carry in battle. In my estimation, if a revolution were warranted, a population armed with simple side arms would be entirely capable of a successful revolution.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:56:54 PM EST
    I think a reasonable means of deciphering the intent of the framers is to compare the text against the colloquial meaning of the time. At that time arms was taken to reference those weapons an infantryman may carry in battle. In my estimation, if a revolution were warranted, a population armed with simple side arms would be entirely capable of a successful revolution. All toher arguments aside, you have to admit thats a little bit ridiculous of a claim that simple side arms can win a revolution. Though one might mention the military's generally poor showing in Iraq in the insurgency, the number of troops, weapons, and resources available in Iraq, would be a pittance compared to what would be mobilized against the possibility of armed insurrection in America.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:01:20 AM EST
    I have no problem with a law enforcement officer having a gun on school property. Cops aren't just cops when they are on duty. It's a 24/7 thing. I do have a problem with a "bad ass" trying to teach these kids something about guns while disregarding every known safety rule. If you are assigned a weapon, you should know how to load and empty it safely. You always treat a gun as though it is loaded. You *never* put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to fire the weapon. This idiot should be fired. But the problem lies with the single idiot... not the federal agency he works for or with the gun he carries.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 04:12:03 AM EST
    I thought it was funny for one reason - I've been hearing from the anti-gun lobby that only cops are responsible enough to have guns. The dea agent even implied the same thing right before he shot himself. Now as to the serious side of the incident he violated a few very basic rules of firearms handling, the two most relevant being he failed to point the firearm in a safe direction & he put his finger on the trigger when he didn't intend to shoot. The type of firearm was irrelevant: he'd have done the same thing with a revolver because he neglected those very basic rules. As to having guns in schools - the press doesn't make much mention of it but around 30% of school shootings were stopped by civilians (i.e. non cops who are, despite some of their attitudes, civilians) who used firearms. In each & every case they had to leave school property (where they parked) & retrieve their weapon & come back. It's speculation on how uch quicker they could have stopped each incident if they'd not have been denied their Right to carry. In Israel they had aproblem with school shootings. Then they armed the teachers. They don't have a problem anymore. So it makes more sense to not restrict someone's Right to Arms for "the sake of the children" when the potential for protecting the children is more plausible than th potential for harming them. As for the utility of the 2nd amendment - look ay war centers on one thing & that's real estate. You cannot win a war w/o controlling the land. The u.S. military would be formidable if it ever came to an us v. them thing (assuming all the military would go along) but A: the deterent factor of armed civilians is not to be underestimated when a government contemplates something bad & B: it'd take ten soldiers to nuetralize the effect of every armed civlian in an actual fight (assuming the civilians were smart & used guerilla tactics). The military would eventually be succesful if they kept it up long enough but at a very high cost which no one wants to pay. So think of it as a very very effective deterrent & hope it never has to be put to the test. On the framers not knowing the technological advancements in arms - look, the principle behind it was that every man be armed as every soldier. In 1776 that meant muskets w/ bayonets. Today that means M-16's w/ bayonets (although the M-16 is a poor choice & there are much better options but that's another topic). As long as the individual has access to the same type of individual weapons the military has then we're cool. Any argument that it only meant to protect muskets is flawed if it doesn't also argue that the military should also go back to muskets. But look in the body of the constitution. See that line about calling up the militia & granting letters of marque? Know what a letter of marque is? It's authorization for a private (not public but private) warship to engage ships of another nation. Civlians had cannon back then. They have cannons now (although they're heavily regulated by an unconstitutional heap of laws witht he NFA of 34 at the bottom) & Lord willing they'll have cannons in the future. Privately owned cannons were used in many battles during the American revolution. Hell I recall seeing an old ad from aPhilly paper int he early 1800's for hand grenades. So the framers woul dnot be shocked at the level of technology we have in pribately owned arms today - they'd be shocked that they're as restricted as they are. Any military issued individual weapon should be available w/o restriction to any citizen. If a citizen is too untrustworthy to handle arms then he should be seperated from society - not having everyone else penalized for a small minority's potential malicious behavior. Oh but yes - this idiot )dea agent) should be fired. As should every cop who causes a negligent (not accidental - there's no such thing) discharge resulting in inury. & they happen more frequently than you'd think. I'd wager more frequently than in the civilian world.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#46)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:49:42 AM EST
    “you have to admit thats a little bit ridiculous of a claim that simple side arms can win a revolution. … would be a pittance compared to what would be mobilized against the possibility of armed insurrection in America” First, keep in mind how difficult it is for a foreign military to control a restive population; a population with which they have no common values, history, or family. The US military is voluntary, and further, a great deal of it reserve. I simply don’t see the bulk of these folks mobilizing against the US population. If anything I see them mobilizing in support. Our military is stretched thin in Iraq (~22mil) and Afghanistan (~25mil); that’s like only California and Texas. But for the sake of argument, lets say someone was convinced to drop a MOAB, a tactical nuke, or a chemical weapon on a US population center (as I type this I’m even more convinced of it’s implausibility); all support within the military would immediately vanish. Think of the riots that transpired from an abusive and heavy handed police presence, now imagine what would happen if tanks were rolled into LA or Chicago.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 09:09:40 AM EST
    Base firearm technology is essentially unchanged; powder, slug, barrel. Of course modern guns are more powerful, accurate, and efficient. PW, I'm going to give you a chance to qualify that statement before I launch into a comparison between muskets and Tek 9's.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#48)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:29:45 AM EST
    “PW, I'm going to give you a chance to qualify that statement before” Well, not much to qualify. Modern and old-timey guns alike still use the same base technology/ principle. Gunpowder is ignited; gasses compressed by confinement in a barrel force a projectile out. So your hang up is how the authors would ever have imagined advances culminating in a tek 9? ~1630, standard flint lock, a significant advance from a simple fuse enabling relatively rapid fire and increased aim. Ten years later riffling was introduces to all arms, particularly handguns, increasing accuracy significantly. ~1690, the breach-loading rifle was invented, again increasing the rate of fire significantly. ~1730, hammerless flintlock, ~1760, double barreled shotguns, paper cartridges were now common. From this point on it really picks up; ~1810, percussion caps were invented; this leads to needle fire cartridges. Revolvers are now possible with then-modern manufacturing, and on, and on. Again, I doubt the authors were under the impression that gun technology had peaked coincidentally at that time, or would soon stagnate. What would you envision, perhaps a sunset clause on the 2nd?

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:59:32 AM EST
    Thanx PW, I think you spared TP from embarassing him/herself.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:28:26 AM EST
    Oh my god! The video was soooo funny. What a dope.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 08:14:23 PM EST
    Well, I hardly know who to respond to, there's so much activity on both sides. Firstly, the militia were NEVER envisioned to be state controlled. In fact, the assumption that the militia would always remain unaffiliated civilians is the basis for the modern day 'Draft'. Congress is calling up the militia, to do combat as regulars. Certainly having a draft number didn't make you 'National Guard'. Secondly, as much as people seem to think gun technology influences the applicability of the second amendment, I have yet to see an additional constitutional amendment revising it, and as such, the 'supreme law of the land' states, quite clearly, that the civilian populace should be armed in the manner of a military. (This is also backed by the common perception of the day that a standing army was the sign of a tyrant, so you'd have to call up your civilians to GET your weapons. I'm not sure that standing army thing has changed as much as we'd like.) As per the cop, or DEA agent, I saw a man pull the slide, which, depending on the brand of gun, may or may NOT eject the round, and it seems it didn't... Remove the mag, hand it over to an assistant, drop the slide, and fire. At no point did I see him touch the safety. This IS indeed highly disturbing. I think it can be raped multiple ways to get whatever moral you want out of it, so my two bits are as follows: Let this be the thought that comes to mind next time someone tells you that people shouldn't have privately owned firearms, because only the police and military receive enough training to 'properly handle' such things. I'm active duty Navy. I read our incident reports every friday. I've heard of dozens of people who think that clearing their weapon involves the trigger, for some god only knows reason. In fact, the only shooting incident my parents ever had at their IPSC group was an off duty parole officer, who, interestingly enough, shot himself in the pocket, shattering his keys. I think I actually saw that person posting while searching the internet about this article, oddly. He carried a .45 slug in his leg for a month before they realized the blood wasn't from his keys stabbing him when he fell. As to why he was carrying in the buiilding, this is a DEA agent, on duty. He can't be on duty unarmed, and I fail to see 'leave it in your car in a school parking lot' as a choice, either. That said, he should INDEED have had a dummy to show to the class. They don't teach sex or drug education with hookers or tweekers, either. Gun education, as with sex and drug ed, are good ideas. They're all meant to put a little bit of scare into you, as to unintended consequences, and rightly so. Some kids still had to be the ones to touch the stove, but 'careful, that's hot' was never a bad idea. Ok, so priorities satisfied, now onto the humor... Yeah, it was friggin funny watching his timing on that shot, and even better when, on the full length clip, you realize he's said 'now this gun isn't loaded'...BANG and then tries to get the assault rifle (AR-15? I couldn't see) and says to the kids "Oh no, don't worry, it's unloaded!" Fool me once, shame on you, and all that... Fool me twice, and I'm the first guy knocking that dude off his feet. Hope this hasn't been too long for anyone. If they want to ask me any questions, this is also my yahoo name. :)

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:06:43 PM EST
    Get ready to ream me if you want. This video shows the product of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION laws. I am a white cop in Miami. I am not a racist or supremacist. I know I'll get replies of those who disagree. #1) Does this DEA agent sound articulate? Does he speak with proper grammar? Does he sound like a college graduate or a GED recipient? He's an embarrassment to the DEA, an unprofessional idiot. #2) why does this agent unholster a loaded firearm in a filled classroom? Don't dispute whether or not he should be armed and in a school, he is after all a law enforcement officer. But unholstering a loaded firearm in a school when there is no threat present reflects poor judgment. #3) why does he not know how to properly "make safe" his weapon? He shouldn't have had it unholstered in the first place, but why does he not know to remove the mag prior to pulling back the slide and ejecting the chambered round? #4) why does he allow himself to be videoed if he is a DEA Agent? He's a show off as is obvious from his comments. #5) why does he pull the trigger of a weapon that he believes he unloaded? There is no reason that would necessitate that. Glocks don't just go off. The trigger was pulled, period. He doesn't know the functions of his weapon or safe weapon handling practices. #6) why after shooting his foot does he continue preaching? Get medical attention fool. Poor judgment, again. #7) what number of brain cells did he use when he determined it would be acceptable to go on with his demonstration and handle/show more weapons, a rifle, to an already terrified classroom of citizens? In the name of "equality" and "fairness", I have seen black people get hired, assigned specialized positions and get promoted through the ranks over other more qualified people who are not black (not just white, but Latin, oriental, etc etc). There are many professional and qualified black people, people who possess COMMON SENSE, something this DEA agent did not. HIRE THEM, PROMOTE THEM and do it because they are individuals who possess the ability to do a job, not because there is a percentage/qouta to fill of a certain race required. This agent was hired because he was black. He is an embarrassment to the DEA, the black community, and himself. He is a product of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION hiring, and he shows it at its worst. He is a danger to the community. I believe the DEA suspended him for 5 days as a result of this "accidental discharge." Dismissal from duty as an agent would be more appropriate because of 1) poor judgment and 2) insufficient intellectual ability to carry out the duties of a Drug Enforcement Agent. But then of course he could claim it was because he was black.

    Re: DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstrati (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 09:19:51 AM EST
    I agree with Police Officer from Miami 100%. Black or white, this guy is incompetent and should not have been hired in the first place.

    DEA Agent Shoots Self During Class Demonstration | 51 comments (51 topical)