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Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for Chaplains

By TChris, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 08:57:33 AM EST
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by TChris

The Air Force Academy, after being sued for proselytizing cadets, announced that it rescinded an obviously unconstitutional “code of ethics [for chaplains] that endorsed the practice of evangelizing military service members who are not affiliated with any specific religion.”

The code of ethics - issued by the Air Force Chaplain Service in January 2005 - includes the statement: "I will not actively proselytize from other religious bodies. However, I retain the right to instruct and/or evangelize those who are not affiliated."

Unaffected by the Academy’s action is a similar code of ethics authored by the “National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces, a private organization of religious bodies that provides chaplains to all of the military services.”

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    Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for Chaplains | 21 comments (21 topical)
    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    charley, The chaplains are still free to exercise their religion, they just aren't free to infinge upon others' freedom. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Which nowadays means the government cannot prohibit the free exercise thereof. When somebody proselytizes in his capacity as a government official, like a chaplain, he prohibits the free exercise thereof of whoever he proselytizes to. So, in this case, prohibiting proselytizing prohibits prohibiting the free exercise thereof. It's not only Constitutional, it's Constitutionally required.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    Char-you have aced the Fascism 101 course. Are you going to enroll in the advanced course where you can learn the leatest on torture and medical experimentation on those who engage in "left thinking."
    "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character"
     Joseph Goebbels
    The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over"
     Joseph Goebbels

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    charley, I think you're using the broad definition of "proselytize" and I'm using the narrow one. I agree that it would be unconstitutional to prohibit chaplains from simply discussing their beliefs with non-believers. My point is that the chaplains can and should be prohibited from using the coercive tactics of which they've been accused. Whether it's correct to call any of it "proselytizing" is an important question for the lawyers, but not an interesting one for me.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#4)
    by TChris on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    Wrong again, charley. The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that the First Amendment rights of public employee are limited by their governmental employment. For instance, can a public school teacher exercise her right to religious freedom by instructing public school students about her religious views? No - McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 (1948). Can public school teachers exercise their religious freedom by leading their students in prayer? No - Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962). Can they read the Bible over a public school intercom? No - Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Can they lead prayers at public school graduations? No - Lee v. Weisman, 112 SCt. 2649 (1992). Can public employees exercise their freedom of religion by displaying a nativity scene in a governmental building? No - Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989). And so on.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    TChris, I don't think we'll be hearing from Charley again on this thread. Then again, maybe he'll take the bait. Good work, my friend.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#6)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    Yes, Dadler, TChris seems to have the law on his side, which in my estimation is kinda sad.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    Ironically (since 'most everyone has access to religion if they wish) you can reasonably assume that "unaffiliated" folk are that way because they damn well choose to be--ergo, they're likely to be the people most likely to kick and/or sue your superstitious ass if you come around trying to proselytize them. The chaplains in question probably would have had more luck going after one another's flocks, but hey, professional courtesy and all that.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:55 PM EST
    Char-I know it is hard for you to think but, the issue here is institutionalized wingnut evangelical proselytizing to soldiers who are not interested in the message. Is that what you are calling free speech? The soldiers who do not want to hear the 'Free speech' were not free to walk away from it. Forced religous indoctrination is not protected by the constitution especially by government instittions, Ever hear of the seperation between church and state?
    "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character"
    -Joseph Gobbles You are showing off the foundation of your, 'well built character'. Bush is very pleased with your progress.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#9)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Squeaky said: Joseph Gobbles.. heh..heh Sorry.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    char-So is calling someone a jew derogatory these days or you having a nostalgic slip back to 1936 Germany.
    The younger son, still a cadet, has been called a "jew" and other derogatory terms,
    As you are unwilling or unable to understand the issue of this post you fall back on your Gobbels training manual regarding propaganda:
    ...... it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over"
     Joseph Goebbels

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Squeaky, How many times are you going to repeat Goebbels's point about repeating points?

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    roy- I will repeat repeat and repeat until the technique falls back into the dustbin of history where it belongs. When thre quote is used as an antidote for propaganda it amounts to the oft repeated line: "never again!!"

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Char-When there is a institutionalized code that forces adherence to a particular religious doctrine, individuals that reject the group think are shunned and attacked. The claim that derogatory remarks to Cadet Weinstein had nothing to do with either his lawsuit or the evangelicals is absurd, it is the whole point and the ruling centers around evangelical hostility to the 'other'.
    I am sure when the younger cadet talks of being called a "jew", it either has a less than complimentary adjective attached to it or isn't in the context of being complimentary. Either way, it has nothing to do with evangelical christianity.
    I do not have a copy of
    the wit and wisdom of the reich available for ready use
    but I do have a thing that must be unfamiliar to you. It is called the internet and search engines such as google. WTF are you talking about. It is you who wants to limit god talk to one point of view. All others such as muslims, according to you, are savages.
    if all this "god" talk makes you uncomfortable, there are countries where it would be suppressed. like M-NYC, you could beat up or even stone those who proselytized. just not here.
    Your reference to stoning in M-NYC is incoherent as usual. Glad that you have used up your propaganda ration for the day.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Charley, That's nice and all, but when you get right down to it, there's a war to fight and Jesus ain't gonna win it. I'd rather the minds of our soldiers remain uncorroded by organized religion.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#15)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    frankly, all of you are wrong, on the basis. charley clearly doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground, so i expect little, if anything, from him. TC i expected better from. to whit: the chaplain corp falls under the same rules as every other member of the military. that they are chaplains doesn't negate that they have very clearly given up some constitutional rights, freedom of speech being one of the biggies. they also fall under the UCMJ, chaplains or no. as commissioned officers, they have an even greater obligation to ensure that the rules and regs are being followed. their unwanted prosletyzing does not contribute to overall good unit cohesion, an absolute necessity in the military, regardless of branch. you kind of want your plane driver, navigator and mechanic all working from the same page, not pissed at each other over religious differences. i see this as having far more dangerous consequences for unit readyness than the gay/not gay issue. when was the last war started over homosexuality?

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#16)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Charley knows the law better than T-Chris. The term "jew" is a slander. The non-religious can be beaten with sticks until they pray. What a "Charlie"!

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Charley, From what I can glean, the Tucker case dealt with all religious materials posted or displayed by rank-and-file government employees. Not coercive activities by government employees in leadership positions, as we're discussing here. It also hinged on wether a reasonable person would interpret the banned activities (i.e. hanging a cross in one's cubicle) as government endorsement of religion. The court said no. At the Academy, the chaplains are accused of using their authority to organize cadets to convert or harass others on religious grounds. I interpret that as a government endorsement of religion; whether I am a reasonable person is another debatable point.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#18)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    Roger, have you seen Woody Allen's skit on being super-sensitive to the word "Jew"...funny as hell. Jew never saw that? Jew gotta be kiddin..... Growing up in The Bronx I loved watching the thin-skinned wilt under the most tame ethnic teasing imaginable; Irish off the boat were irate at "donkey" or "mick" but the Irish-Americans could give a rats ass. Italians were very tender no matter what was said. Puerto Ricans didn't really care what was said....bad MFers. Blacks were alot like the Puerto Ricans, they weren't overly sensitive. Albanians would kill you if you looked sideways at them. Which I saw. The Jewish guys I knew were pretty sensitive, only because they got it from their parents. I remember thinking they were being restrained from hanging with the riff raff of the neighborhood. Their parents were right because last I heard they were Drs, dentists, movie producers and {gasp} lawyers.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#19)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    LWW, It's rough, but we survive ;-) Charley, You found a case, not quite on point, congratulations! T-Chris gave you a treatise. He's been before the US Supreme Court. If I remember correctly, Scalia agreed with his argument. Your dismissal of his lesson to you makes you look less than serious.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#20)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:56 PM EST
    This is not specific to the Air Force at all, but when I was little, going to Sunday school in a mainstream church, we heard that God loved us, Jesus loved us, we loved each other. I could live with this. Until the religious nuts came along and ruined everything with their sick, twisted, psycho problems with sex and punishment and suffering all tied up in a neat bundle to be forced on us whenever possible. I am now an atheist and there is no going back. Except for my little Christmas creches for old times sake.

    Re: Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for (none / 0) (#21)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:57 PM EST
    Sorry Charlie, you dont see the similarity between school kids, and live in students? You remind me of these guys who go to court pro se, and often end up incarcerated to get a psych eval! I will refrain from responding to your posts in the future, unless I think someone is actually being misled. Get help, it is not a weakness to admit mental illness

    Air Force Academy Withdraws Code of Ethics for Chaplains | 21 comments (21 topical)