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Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawal

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 09:08:52 AM EST
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by TChris

Despite administration protests that it is "irresponsible" to suggest that the U.S. should establish a timetable for withdrawing from Iraq, the idea finds support among Iraqi leaders.

Reaching out to the Sunni Arab community, Iraqi leaders called for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces and said Iraq's opposition had a "legitimate right" of resistance.

Shouldn't an administration that has frequently labeled post-invasion Iraq a sovereign nation respect the wishes of its leaders?

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    Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawal | 26 comments (26 topical)
    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    The Iraqis must be reading the political climate here in the States. Seems they might have been hesitant to ask us to leave for fear of offending or angering the superpower, but now with obvious support in the US for withdrawal they are taking advantage of the opportunity -- which they obviously see it as. What this says about their desire to have had us leave earlier is profound.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#2)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Shouldn't an administration that has frequently labeled post-invasion Iraq a sovereign nation respect the wishes of its leaders?
    Which leaders? TL glosses over disagreement among Iraqi leaders. I guess we should only respect the wishes of the leaders who want a timetable, and ignore the wishes of any who want a more flexible plan. And notice they don't say which leaders. That's not the WaPo's fault, since the statement was anonymous. But if they're not elected officials, this is a non-story. If they are elected officials, but don't represent a consensus, then it's important, but they still don't get to override the democratic process. If we get a request for a timetable from a referendum of the people, or from a consensus of elected officials, then we should comply. Short of that, the request does not necessessarily represent the will of the Iraqi people. ("Consensus" has to be loosly defined throughout; it's a matter of who has been given what authority through elections)

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#3)
    by fafnir on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Oops! I guess Chalabi forgot to pass along Cheney's memo.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    As to the legitimacy of the participants, we are the ones who put this meeting in motion, so it's hard to complain. Beware of what you wish for seems the most apt description. From the article:
    The gathering was part of a U.S.-backed league attempt to bring the communities closer together and assure Sunni Arab participation in a political process now dominated by Iraq's Shiite majority and large Kurdish minority.
    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Oops, meant to add that it seems the Iraqi solution to the "Sunni problem" is to get us out of there as quickly as possible; while we seem to hold stubbornly to the opposite (stay UNTIL the "Sunni problem" is solved). WE are a big part of that problem. And for an Iraqi solution and reconcilliation to genuinely take place, it is clear the Iraqis believe we need to leave FIRST.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#6)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Um yes. Sovereignity would be a good thing. A respect for it would be simply astounding. More at Us versus Them

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Which leaders? Leaders from all sects:
    Leaders of Iraq's divided Shi'ites, Kurds, and Sunnis
    [...]
    The conference was attended by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Iraqi Shi'ite and Kurdish lawmakers, as well as leading Sunni politicians.
    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    I'm surprised by the lack of posts on this thread. This seems a pretty major development. Oh well...

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Anyone else notice the iraqi plan for withdrawal is almost identical to Murtha's?

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Sailor - nearly the same, yes. Curious. Dadler - There seems to be a loud silence from the WH over it also. Curiouser...

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#11)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Can anyone come up with a few quotes about how the US claimed that we would leave as soon as iraq wanted us to?

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Sailor - it appears that Bush said it himself, back in January:
    WASHINGTON, Jan. 27 – President Bush said in an interview on Thursday that he would withdraw American forces from Iraq if the new government that is elected on Sunday asked him to do so... ...asked if, as a matter of principle, the United States would pull out of Iraq at the request of a new government, he said: “Yes, absolutely. This is a sovereign government – they’re on their feet.”


    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ambiorix on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Washington Post May 14 2004 Powell Says Troops Would Leave Iraq if New Leaders Asked

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    141 more times, in case there is any doubt about the meaning of absolutely: "Yes, absolutely"

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#15)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:22 PM EST
    Not only do Iraqis leaders want a timetable for US withdrawal, they also said that Iraqis have a "legitimate right" to kill US soldiers. There is no doubt that the handwriting is on the wall. Rather than stay there for decades, as Condaleeza Rice and others have suggested, we will start to "cut and run" within two years. When we do withdraw, I'm sure the Bush administration would like to try to spin it but it looks like the Iraqis aren't allowing Bush to save face. How sad that after 2,000 lives lost, the only thing we have to show for it is a government that thinks it was it was ok to kill those Americans.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    The leaders of Iraq, and yeah Roy the statement made in Egypt was ok'd by a majority of the officials in the new Iraqi government, have stated it is time for U.S. troops to leave and that attacks against U.S. and foreign troops are ok as long as civilians aren't killed. Sounds like they want us gone and it is time to listen. But people like Roy, Patrick, PPJerk, James Robertson, and all of the other winger sleaze that love to slum around here will obfuscate and find another reason to keep our troops there in Iraq. But it seems the Iraqi people have spoken and they have determined that the mission has been accomplished. Time to pack up and bring our folks back home where they belong.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    But people like Roy, Patrick, PPJerk, James Robertson, and all of the other winger sleaze that love to slum around here will obfuscate and find another reason to keep our troops there in Iraq.
    I've read the article four times, and the answer to "which leaders" still seems ambiguous to me. Ditto whether those leaders were elected. Ditto whether the elections gave them any authority over the matter at hand. It seems I am, at worst, illiterate. But with PiL gone, "winger sleaze" may be the worst insult we get. Refreshing.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    Sheesh, there's something ambiguous about THE PRESIDENT OF IRAQ!? BTW, the iraqi nat'l assembly was elected in a country wide election. The pres, PM etc. were elected by the assembly. They are the gov't of iraq, they meet with coalition folks, they meet with bushco, they are the gov't of iraq. try using google sometime.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:24 PM EST
    These are the limits of Iraqi "freedom and democracy". They are NOT ALLOWED to freely and democratically tell their occupiers when to leave.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#20)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:24 PM EST
    I pre-apologize for length:
    BTW, the iraqi nat'l assembly was elected in a country wide election. The pres, PM etc. were elected by the assembly. They are the gov't of iraq...
    Where have you read that the conference was composed primarily of Assembly members? I know the president and PM attended; where have you read that either supported the demand for a timetable? The PM commented on when it might be time, which is not a demand for a pre-set time. Here's what I've read:
    The Iraqi government will be represented by President Jalal Talabani, Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari and National Assembly chief Hajem al-Husseini in addition to Deputy Presidents Adel Abdel Hadi and Ghazi Yawer.
    They weren't the only elected officials, but the others were serving on behalf of their factions, not in their capacity as officials.
    Groups and political forces invited to the meeting include Massoud Barzani, the president of the Kurdish enclave, former premier Ayad Allawi, former member of the ruling council Adnan Pachachi, deputy prime minister and head of the Iraqi National Congress Ahmed Chalabi, Riyad Nouri, the leader in the party of Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and the Shiite Higher Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.
    Barzani and Pachachi are not government. I don't know about Nouri. More delegates are named here. I checked a few; some are government, some are not.
    Sunni factions attending the meeting include the Islamic Iraqi Party, the Committee of Muslim Ulemas, the Congress of the People of Iraq represented by Adnan Dalimi, the National Dialogue Council as well as independent Sunni figures.
    Sounds to me like they're bringing in leaders of political factions, not just government officials. Some delgates are both, some aren't. So we can call Dalimi (not government, best I can tell) a "leader" in the same sense that we can call Ralph Nader a "leader". It's true, but doesn't exactly represent the outcome of the democratic process.
    try using google sometime.
    Yeah, the more I Google the less impressed I am. In addition to the issues above: the main point of the conference was to involve groups who are underrepresented in government. That undercuts the notion that they represent the will of the people. But I do need to correct myself on one point: the demand for a timetable was not anonymous. I misread.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    roy, as is typical of those who support the continued occupation of a supposedly sovereign nation, makes a rather weak and specious argument while trying to save face. Hey, here's an idea: how about having a national referendum for the people of Iraq to vote on how and when they want the occupying army to leave their country? Do you think that should be allowed, roy?

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Ernesto:
    Hey, here's an idea: how about having a national referendum for the people of Iraq to vote on how and when they want the occupying army to leave their country? Do you think that should be allowed, roy?
    Yes, absolutely. To quote myself on Tuesday:
    If we get a request for a timetable from a referendum of the people ... then we should comply.
    Ditto a request to leave ASAP, jumping up on down on one leg. I would love for them to have a referendum. Democracy is still fresh over there, which makes the connection between leaders (elected or otherwise) and the Will of the People tanacious. A referendum bypasses that problem. And I suspect voter participation on the referendum would be very high. It wouldn't be easy to pull off, though. The terrorists would be motivated to attack voters to skew the results, and any American firepower deployed to stop those attacks would be seen as voter intimidation.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    roy, be careful what you wish for. From the CATO Institute:
    According to the Telegraph of London, a poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defense found that 45 percent of Iraqis believed that attacks on coalition forces were justified at least some of the time, and a staggering 82 percent of those polled indicated that they were "strongly opposed" to the presence of foreign troops.
    I couldn't get the Sunday Telegraph online, perhaps others can.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Sailor, This the Telegraph article you were looking for?
    • Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province; • 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops; • less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security; • 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation; • 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened; • 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces. The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Thanks edger! And to belabor the obvious; if you are the average iraqi and you have less electricity, less drinking water and are more likely to get tortured or killed than before the americans invaded it would be hard to understand why you would want the occupiers to stay.

    Re: Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawa (none / 0) (#26)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    roy, be careful what you wish for.
    No need. I don't have any burning desire for Americans to stay in Iraq, or to keep the pullout goal-based rather than timeline-based. It's just my opinion that it's the best way to stabilize the country. But even setting aside the (totally legit) sovereignty issues, that approach just won't work if the Iraqi people oppose it. And, heck, I'm not even registered to vote in Iraq.

    Iraqi Leaders Call for Timetable for Withdrawal | 26 comments (26 topical)