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China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S.

By Jeralyn, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 11:51:20 AM EST
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The 1,000th execution in the U.S. since 1976 when the death penalty was restored will take place Friday in North Carolina. Kenneth Boyd is unlikely to receive clemency.

Only China, Iran and Vietnam held more executions in 2004 than the United States.

It would be a welcome miracle if every Governor decided they did not want their name and legacy to become a footnote in history whereby they were known more as the Governor who okayed the needle on the 1,000th prisoner in the U.S. than for their good works.

We've already had one, Gov. Mark Warner in Virginia. If we could get a second with Mike Easley, the Governor of North Carolina, and then Gov. Mark Sanford in South Carolina where another execution is planned Friday, it could become a movement. Just like in Alice's Restaurant.

Update: It's a pipe dream. N.C. Governor Mike Easley has denied clemency. From now on, he will be referred to on TalkLeft as "Mike Easley, the N.C. Governor responisble for the 1,000th execution in the U.S. since 1976."

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    China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. | 23 comments (23 topical)
    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    *cough* per capita *cough*

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    and *cough* per capita murder rate *cough*

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    I'll feign surprise that TL didn't raise nearly this much of a ruckus over execution number 999.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    I'm against the death penalty, not because of any great love for these murderers but because it's not imposed fairly; more because of a lack of money than of race. Rich people don't fry. What troubles me is the same people who are aghast at the death penalty have absolutely no problem shrugging off thousands of late term abortions (infanticide) every year in this country. Any attempt to put a stop to it is met with a fervor matched only by the same people's determination to save these murderers. I just don't get it.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    for killing his estranged wife and her father in 1988 in front of his children.
    Kenneth Boyd's crime, if it happened the way it is described, was a horrible, disgusting, savage and inhuman crime and should not go unpunished, by any stretch of the imagination, and the reflexive emotional desire for retribution is common and understandable. The aim and purpose of justice is not retribution, however, in my opinion, but is conflict resolution, the improvement of human interaction, and the general improvement and evolution of human societies.
    Restorative Justice is based on the Socratic/Platonic philosophy of shifting the focus from appearances to essences, from visible forms to invisible ideas and values. Restorative Justice returns to the Golden Rule, doing unto others as you would have others do unto you, of each of us doing what’s ours to do. Restorative Justice rejects the Paradigms of externally controlled societies, rejects the retributive model of justice, and rejects the reward-punishment model of societies. Restorative Justice is a paradigm that has been and is still practiced by many Native peoples, and emphasizes the redress of injustice by means of understanding, compassion, and mutual resolution.
    I think, and again here it is only an opinion, but one I suspect would likely be supported by fact and statistical records, that most murders are committed against someone related in some way to the murderer, and are not likely crimes that will be repeated, invalidating in those cases any claimed deterrent effect of CP. LWOP, with sufficiently robust security, is I think a more realistic solution, as emotionally unsatisfying as it may be. To those who would support CP, I would ask: Why? What is the real motive for such a desire? Who benefits from it? And how?

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    Just to get you all riled up.... Illinois is now seeking the death penalty for this slug... (Dugan)... who admitted to killing two women years ago and bargained his way down to 'life'... but now through DNA, is linked to the rape & murder of a 10 year old girl 20 years ago. (moving his murder list up to 3) Anyone think he deserves to live? If it was my little girl he killed.... he'd be dead already!

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#7)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    I like LWW am more opposed to the death penalty because any Government is incapable of applying it properly. It takes too long to execute the people who deserve death because the risk of killing someone who is innocent while small is not worth giving up the system as it stands. The flip side is the old west where lynch mobs and instant hangings ruled the day and the fact that a few innocents were probably hanged was for society worth the deterent. To edgar I will say that capital punishment is "inteded" to deter anyone who is thinking that killing their cheating wife is a good idea. Sure most people may only kill one person but the likely case that most people are one time murderers is not a reason to deter those people from commiting murder in the first place. I cannot say honestly that capital punishment deters murder because I don't know and I feel it probably breaks even compared to life in prison. Far more likely is the thought in a persons head "will I get away with this, or do I care" is far more likely what goes through people's mind when they commit murder.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    BB..."Does he deserve to live?" is not a valid question. No human being can make that judgement, or so my Christian friends tell me. The gift of life is not limited to the deserving. If so, there might only be a few thousand people deserving enough to live on the whole planet. The question is should we grant the state the right to legally kill. I say no, the potential of an innopcent man being killed far outweighs any benefit. And to me, the deterrent argument is so bunk. The last thing on a murderer's mind while committing the act is "What will happen if I'm caught?"

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    kdog:
    The last thing on a murderer's mind while committing the act is "What will happen if I'm caught?"
    That's a very clear one sentence argument against the deterrent argument. A mind filled with the rage needed to murder is not thinking beyond the moment...

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    edger, if you believe "a mind filled with the rage needed to murder is not thinking beyond the moment." That's an amazing statement. If you really believe that you are clueless about how clever some of these guys can be. There's nothing crazy about them. Just bad people.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    As I understand it, being enraged beyond the ability to reason is a defense against being sentenced to death. Not an absolute one, though. Premeditated murder -- implying the capability if not the effort to consider consequences -- is more likely to result in being sentenced to death. And repeated murderers... maybe the first time you just lost control. But looking around and noticing that you've murdered somebody should be an indicator that you need to make some changes in your life, and you're wholly accountable for the consequences if you fail to do so. (I oppose the death penalty only because I don't trust the gub'mint, and I'll tolerate a few slime living in prison as the price for keeping the government in check)

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    "a mind filled with the rage needed to murder is not thinking beyond the moment." LWW, You're right, partly. I was referring mostly to those crimes of passion where a murder of someone related in some way to the killer is committed in the heat of anger, which I suspect most are.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    edger, as roy said crimes of passion are usually not prosecuted as CP crimes. Texas and Florida not-with-standing. Yeehaw.....

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Good point LWW..it's not fair to lump the whole US in with the likes of China and Iran. The post should be titled..."China, Iran, Vietnam...and Texas/Florida"

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    I believe the general standard for CP is that the murderer shows "utter disregard for human life." Whatever that means. Crimes of passion, heat of anger, etc., do not qualify as far as I am able to find out. This reminds me of the (many) discussions of sex offender registration where some people continue to think (wrongly) that you are forced to register for minor offenses like public urination or shacking up with your 17 year-old girlfriend. No. Like the RSO lists, CP is reserved for the worst of the worst. Be for or against CP as you wish, but don't kid yourself that it is applied to otherwise good people who just got a little overheated and made a boo boo. (Please don't start in about RSO's - it was just an example of something similar to make a point.)

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    sarcastic, If RSO lists are reserved for the worst of the worst, then why are there individuals on some of these lists for possession of child porn? I don't mean distribution, just possession. These folks have not created a violent act against a child. Doesn't seem like the worst of the worst to me. No molestation or rape, just possession of contraband.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    I have four daughters and five sisters who have children. If a guy who likes young girls pornographically is busted for it, I think people should know. Someone like this living around my family or anyone elses should be identified. No brainer.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    LWW, My point was that SO lists are not reserved for only the worst of the worst as sarcastic has pointed out. Sorry, but possession of child porn is not in the same league as rape and molestation. One is a physical act against another person, the other is not. Bad comparison by sarcastic in my view.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Kenny Boyd has taken responsibility for his crimes. I have more sympathy for him than for Tookie Williams. I am against the death penalty on principle. I'd like to see a national moratorium on the death penalty -- right after Tookie is offed.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#20)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    macro, apparenty you don't have kids or you have a large collection. I love this stuff about Saint Tookie, nominated for a NPP. I noinated my buddy Vinnie for the same thing. So Vinnie is a Nobel nominee.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    LWW, All I was trying to do was point out how poor I thought sarcastic's comparison was. What is apparent in your last post is that you don't know me.

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    macromaniac makes a good point... possession of child pornoagraphy is in fact a thought crime. Based on the standards defined by the courts on the topic of pedophilia, those standards applied to murder, would result in most Americans being locked up, or, at the least, be forced to tell their neighbors "I am a convicted thought criminal. I had thoughts about killing my boss. I even sketched a cartoon on my laptop about it. Ever since the state decided that possession or even viewing of certain materials was enough evidence to prove that I was capable of committing the crimes depicted, I am now a criminal, guilty of murder by vicarious attachment to a few pictures and words."

    Re: China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    If you own, posses or use child pornography you are commiting a real crime because you are helping an illegal industry through your purchasing or viewing of child pornography. Ponography is fine in my view when it comes to adults because they can make their own choices but no child can decide for themselves whether it's a good idea to be involved. I don't know if it is as serious as actually commiting the crime but it's in no way acceptable and you can't tell me that it isn't a slippery slope. Case in point did anyone see the Dateline special on internet predators. Scary stuff. Average Joe's showing up to have sex with minors they met on the internet. That all starts with the viewing and purchasing of ponography.

    China, Iran, Vietnam....and the U.S. | 23 comments (23 topical)