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Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have a Bomb

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 01:34:08 PM EST
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AOL news reports the passenger killed by air marshals in the jetway of an American Airlines plane in Miami was an 44 year old American citizen. His wife said he was mentally ill and hadn't taken his meds.

A witness said that the man frantically ran down the aisle of the Boeing 757 and that a woman with him said he was mentally ill. The passenger, who indicated there was a bomb in the bag, was confronted by air marshals but ran off the aircraft, Doyle said.

The marshals pursued and ordered the passenger to get on the ground, but the man did not comply and was shot when apparently reaching into the bag, Doyle said. Authorities did not immediately say whether any bomb was found.

CNN reports no bomb was found. Although the plane had arrived from Colombia, it was en route to Orlando. The man boarded in Miami.

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    Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have a Bomb | 86 comments (86 topical)
    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Gardner(a witness)said she heard the woman say her husband was bipolar and had not had his medication.
    A shame.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    This reminds me of the fatal shooting of the subway passenger in London. And, as in that case, I expect that once this shooting is investigated further, it will become clear that the federal air marshall's acted hastily and failed to follow proper procedure. But, as always, hindsight is 20/20.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#3)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    There are a few things you just dont do. You dont say you have a bomb (especially in an airport). You dont threaten an air marshal in a jetway. You dont reach your hand in a bag after you have an air marshall pointing a gun at you. Common sense. The air marshall didnt have time to do a mental evaluation of this guy. He did what he thought was right to protect his life and the lives of everyone within the potential danger zone.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    The air marshall didnt have time to do a mental evaluation of this guy. He did what he thought was right to protect his life and the lives of everyone within the potential danger zone.
    That doesn't make sense. He was coming off the plane, not boarding it. Assuming that he would have been able to get through TSA security in Orlando with a bomb in his carry-on luggage, it's also reasonable to assume that he would have detonated it on the plane. Given that a frantic woman was following him saying that this man hadn't taken his meds, this doesn't add up to "terrorist-with-bomb". It seems obvious to me that the air marshall was poorly trained, or was following faulty rules of engagement. Although not as bad as being pinned face down in a subway and shot in the back repeatedly point-blank by a cop, it is still awful. The air marshalls failed to manage the situation properly, and a man was killed.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#5)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Nicole, You must be the gold medalist at conclusion jumping. The points that peacrevol has made show that this shooting was completely justified. I agree though that other facts might surface which could change this conclusion but for now, ALL indications point to adequate justification.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    One other thing: I would be interested in knowing the race of the man who was shot.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#7)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    I withhold judgement, except to say that if the man did have and blow up a bomb, the air marshal would have been tarred and feathered. If he'd survived.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#8)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Scott, The man said he had a bomb, was acting in a threatening manner, wouldnt listen to the Marshall and began to reach into his bag. The fact that he may have been bi-polar doesnt alleviate the threat he posed. From one news account I heard, he is a US citizen of Costa Rican descent.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Obviously, this is disturbing and needs to be looked at. Although it should be said that shooting a person with explosives on them could just as easily detonate those explosives. There is no way to protect against everything. But we seem to think there is, and in the process are creating a hair-trigger mentality, as well as a bogeyman -- the "terrorist" -- as effective as the old "communist" was in maintaining the military industrial complex's profits and a state of perpetual war.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    I feel sorry for the air marshal. He was forced to make a split second decision which will be scrutinized at leisure by many people with many agendas. Only he knows if he made the right decision for the situation that presented itself. Scott, If the article is correct and he was shot in a jetway, he was already past TSA security. Surely you're not implying they are foolproof. Besides, who ever heard of a suicide bomber. That just doesn't happen right?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#11)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Um... how would this guy have gotten a bomb through the x-ray? Seems like a tacit admission that our security measures are worthless. Furthermore, if I wanted to blow up a plane, I would have kept my mouth shut. That said, I don't blame the air marshal, I'm sure this is exactly what he was trained to do. I blame our retarded obsession with protecticing the skies from nail clippers and people who say "bomb".

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Actually, we might want to wait for facts, so far all we have is an AM and DHS saying the man said he had a bomb.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#13)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    I dont know the ROEs for air marshalls either, but these days, if you have somebody saying they have a bomb in an airport, you take them seriously. It doesnt matter if he was boarding or arriving. It is clearly plausible that someone may ride a plane with a bomb with intentions to blow up the airport when they arrive. It's also conceivable that he could get a bomb past lax security. Perhaps that doesnt seem typical, but then again neither is ramming planes into the side of buildings. Also, when he's reaching into his bag, the air marshall has seconds at most to ask and answer all of these questions.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Scott F - What does his race have to do with this? et al - When bad things happen they happen very fast. The Air Marshall took the correct action. That someone was screaming he had a mental problem had nothing to do with him not being shot. a. The person could have been working with the suspected/announced bomber. b. If not, how could the person be 100% sure he had no bomb. c. Why should a reasonable person try to figure out the above in, probably, less than a minute. I'd bust the Air Marshall if he had not have shot him. Dadler - Yes, it could. Of course if you didn't kill him, he would kill many others. Now lean back and take your time in composing a response.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Jim, My larger point would be, and of course I'm opining here, but I doubt that any serious expert on suicide bombers would tell you this guy fit any profile other than mentally ill and not likely to be carrying anything other than an addled mind.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Add Jim, Essentially we're saying we don't have the ability to train Air Marshalls to profile "perps" as loud and obvious and this guy was. That is, to profile them for what they are -- ill, but no threat. If we can't I.D. the obviously mentally unbalanced, then how can we expect to I.D. the genuinely savvy terrorist?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#17)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    So, a man flailing his arms and yelling he has a bomb is not a threat to those around him? I think the marshall should have given him a time out and a cookie.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Um... how would this guy have gotten a bomb through the x-ray? Seems like a tacit admission that our security measures are worthless.
    Did I read correctly that the flight originated in Columbia? Does Colombia screen as thoroughly as the U.S.? While I don't think the security screeners are wothless, I'm certainly not saying they are foolproof either. They only get a few moments to screen each carry on and it's not a stretch to admit they might miss something, even something obvious.
    Furthermore, if I wanted to blow up a plane, I would have kept my mouth shut.
    I guess all bombers are like you then. Or maybe, mentally ill people are incapable of detonating a bomb. Either way, I'm not betting my life on it.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Demo, Who is saying give him a cookie? But this is a guy who didn't hurt ANYONE. Say you have a bomb and run and you get shot. What is the logic. If he has a bomb, why isn't he just detonating it? Because a person who tells you, I will bet my honky ass, is not a person with a bomb, but a person with a very ill mind. If we can't properly profile the obvious head-case, how on earth can you expect the genuinely savvy and able terrorist to be stopped by a Marshall?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#20)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Random points:
    • Terrorists are quite capable of pretending to be mentally ill, and would do so if we had a "don't shoot people who act mentally ill" policy.
    • Shooting a bomb is less likely to detonate it than pushing the button on the detonator is.
    • No security system or policy is perfect, including TSA x-rays, so it's useful to have redundant layers.
    • How many people would you have to trick, bribe, or coerce to smuggle something through security? I don't fly much, but I think the answer is "2 or 3".
    • If we see as much covering-up and misinformation as London put out after shooting that Portugese dude, I'm going to be p*ssed but not surprised.
    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Roy, Why on earth would a genuine terrorist pretend to be mentally ill to draw attention to themselves? This guy was already on a plane. Already in the airport. He would've just detonated the bomb. It just doesn't add up. We're not talking about protecting ourselves from "terrorists" here, but protecting ourselves from the mentally ill and bombless. It's the complete ILLUSION of security. The well-trained and marginally imaginiative "terrorist" isn't gonna be caught with this kind of weak and unimaginative game.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    When the London shooting first hit the news, the initial articles included all sorts of "justifications" for the shooting, most of which turned out to be false. I am fairly confident that the alleged justifications for this shooting will eventually be proven to be false and/or exaggerations as well. Law enforcement *always* offers evidence in support of a decision to shoot and kill a citizen. What other option do they have? But, that doesn't mean that because they allege that their actions were justified, or because you read their postion in the paper, that it is fact.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Dadler - My point was that the Marshall didn't have time to have an internal debate. And suicide bombers, by definition, are not rational. I'm sorry. If someone starts screaming they have a bomb and starts running off a plane, on a plane, or through the nearest concourse snack bar.... I wan't him shot. Instantly. Immediately. Right then. No waiting. And make it a kill shot. There is no second chance if the Air Marshall makes the wrong choice.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#24)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Why on earth would a genuine terrorist pretend to be mentally ill to draw attention to themselves?
    Wild-ar*ed speculation follows: Maybe he's a little freaked out about his impending death and making some bad decisions. Maybe he had a few cocktails on the plane. Maybe he's trying to cast himself as a lone nut to confuse Intelligence. Maybe he's genuinely mentally ill in addition to being a suicide-bomber. Maybe he's trying to show how stupid Americans are if we can't even stop a loud obnoxious bomber who calls attention to himself. Maybe he's just not very bright. Obviously none of those apply here. But, you did ask.
    This guy was already on a plane. Already in the airport.
    Blowing up on an airplane disables that plane. Blowing up in an airport, with a big enough bomb in a strategic location, may disable many planes. And if some witnesses survive, that might enhance the "terror" part of the attack.
    The well-trained and marginally imaginiative "terrorist" isn't gonna be caught with this kind of weak and unimaginative game.
    Should we design our security to stop well-trained and imaginative terrorists, but leave holes for slow-witted amateurs?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Jim, I beg to differ, a suicide bomber is hyper-rational. How do you think they succeed? How do you think a serial killer succeeds? By NOT drawing attention to themselves. When our policy seems capable of only shooting to kill the mentally ill or completely innocent, my faith in its ability to I.D. and apprehend or foil a genuinely trained and motivated and savvy "terrorist" is nil. Like I've said, it's the absolute ILLUSION of security.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Does Colombia screen as thoroughly as the U.S.?
    Actually, Columbia screens much more thorough than teh US, they've been dealing with it for a lot longer. We don't know the facts, all we know are what gov't officials have told us. They could be heroes, they could be trying to cover up their mistakes. In the case of the London 'terrorist', the brit gov't lied repeatedly, and the guy was not only not a terrorist, he wasn't wearing, acting, doing anything that the brits originally said. Once again, we don't know the facts, all we know are what gov't officials have told us. Please stand by.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Dadler, You presuppose that he was a terrorist and not just some nutbag who wanted to detonate a bomb. Terroism is political, not necessarily the only reason to detonate a bomb. I submit that a nutjob with a deathwish can be just as dangerous and deadly as a terrorist, and unfortunately that air marshal did not have the luxory of endless debate.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Roy, Look, I have no doubt, in today's hair-trigger environment, that a guy like this is gonna get shot. I don't like it, and think -- which is my main point -- that it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TERRORISM PROTECTION but with "protection" from the mentally ill and ultimately harmless. This incident reflects, in no fashion, the ability of an Air Marshall or anyone else to stop a geunuinely motivated "terrorist". It reveals their ability to shoot first and think later. That takes no training whatsoever. And if you think that many terrorists could possibly freak out, or if even one might, then shouldn't we also see that reveals a humanity that can be tapped by other means than war?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Patrick, You make my point for me. The entire subtext of this thread is "he coulda been a terrorist". But let's just say he IS a nutjob who wants to detonate a bomb. What's the difference? You're still not talking about protecting anyone from anything here. If all our policy really does, and this is all it's really done so far, is make us more paranoid, have a quicker hair-trigger, and only really shoot the odd mentally ill person, then how do we keep doing the same thing over and over. Dying for your country means more than on a battlefield. We all should be more willing to die right here in the good ol' USA, in a random act of violence, than allow the FEAR of a random act of violence to turn our free society into a police state of papers and checkpoints and constant suspiscion.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#30)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    TSA will never admit it but the security screening of passengers isn't all that great. More annoying than useful. At best they make people feel safer.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#31)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Dadler, That's not my subtext, if he was acting as he did, then he was a threat. That's the only subtext I'm using. Dying in a random act of violence is one thing and you have a point there, but dying in a potential random act of violence that could be avoided by shooting one persons seems dumb to me. I might also add that it is even more justified when that act is portrayed as one that has the potential of killing and injuring many.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#32)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    All of the facts aren't in yet, but I'll be curious to see if this case fits the pattern of the past five years where law enforcement has escalated the use of force in subduing suspects. Much of that escalation in the use of force appears to be nothing more than on-the-spot punishment. There's been a lot of 5, 6, 7 year old school kids unjustifiably, and sometimes repeatedly, tasered by police just for being unruly kids. These kids were easily dealt with prior to the advent of tasers. Tonight's news showed a video of a 64 year old woman getting tasered while sitting on a seat in a police department. The cop seemed to be enjoying himself. Riding the subway and "looking like an arab" could be a death sentence. The escalation of unnecessary force by law enforcement is a by-product of both a lack of accountability and a lack of common sense. Things are likely to get much worse before it gets better.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#33)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Just a couple of points: 1- this guy got on in Miami, then started running off the plane, talking (or yelling) that he had a bomb. It has been terrorist 101 since the '70s to have a member of the ground crew put weapons/bombs on planes for the terrorists to recover. 2- Killing yourself to blow up a plane is not entirely rational. Others in line for their plane asked the desk agent not to let Richard Reed (shoe bomber) on the plane because he acted "crazy" 3- I am with Patrick regarding the Marshall, he will most likely have problems second guessing himself for years 4- How much time did the marshall have to make his decision? Not long is my guess Sad case, but the mentally ill are always in danger when they are off their meds and comitting anti-social acts

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    this guy got on in Miami
    Not according to most reports. Again, let's wait for the facts.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Dadler writes:
    Dying for your country means more than on a battlefield. We all should be more willing to die right here in the good ol' USA, in a random act of violence, than allow the FEAR of a random act of violence to turn our free society into a police state of papers and checkpoints and constant suspiscion.
    Amazing statement, Dadler. And one of the more rational and profoundly sane statements I've seen or heard in too many years. Hear, Hear.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    I wonder if the Air Marshal would have been armed with the dreaded, hated and opposed Tazer if this guy would still be alive today. Hmmmm?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Billy Boy, He might still be alive today, if half the country hadn't been (and still is) quivering and whining and pissing and crapping themselves, with their brains seized by programmed fear fanned to a white hot blaze by a "leadership" laughing all the way to the bank at the sheep lined up behind them, a "leadership" who can't even protect them from muggers or a burglars, much less protect them from terrorists. "The government cannot protect you from terrorists. But this is precisely their justification for all the anti-freedom laws being passed - to ostensibly 'protect' you."

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#38)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    I doubt the taser would have been a force option that was one would choose against a person claiming to have a bomb. While a bullet is unlikely to detonate an explosive device unless it's the result of some "deadman's switch," 50,000 volts might not make the situation stable. I admit I'm not an electronics expert, and despite the low amps I wouldn't want the volts involved based on the popularity of electronic detonation devices. Any experts out there with other info?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    The taser isn't an option for a life-and-death situation because a taser isn't a sure thing. I personally know a man who had to be tasered 4 times in order to get him down so police could arrest him (drunk, violent, threatening children). Another pulled off the leads while getting zapped. The taser is an option to use when there are backups available. So if you have a belligerent drunk who attacks anyone trying to approach him and who doesn't have anyone within reach, the taser (or pepper spray or another incapacitant) is perfectly understandable because, if the situation escalates, there's still the gun. If it's a situation like a potential suicide bomber, or someone coming at you with a weapon intending to kill you, you use the force required to stop the danger in the least amount of time with the greatest chance of success. In that type of situation, it's a gun.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#40)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    If the reports this evening's news are correct, the marshals (there were two according to the report) didn't fire until he reached into the bag that he claimed had the bomb. If the report is accurate, it seems they waited until the last moment to fire the shots. The problem for the marshals is that they are dealing with the unknown. Assuming a rational bomber, he would wait to detonate when he was at crusing altitude to hopefully bring the aircraft down. The story of him being mentally ill is plausable. Why else would he run off of the aircraft, as opposed to taking it down, or at least detonating in confined quarters with high population density? A mentally ill bomber is exceptionally dangerous as they are likely to detonate whenever, rather than at the point that will cause the most damage/death. Accepting that he was mentally ill, the marshalls had no reasonable alternative other than to shoot. Maybe there is no bomb. Maybe it is a small bomb that will kill only the would be bomber. Maybe it is a large bomb that will damage/destroy the aricraft and injure some or all on board. Regardless, in the face of the unknown, and the distinct possibility that the would be bomber was in fact mentally ill and reaching in the bag with the bomb, the rational decision is to shoot. Had tazers been available, then yes that would have been the better option. But with the two options be shoot a would be bomber and let him get what he claims to be a bomb, you have to protect the public.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    all we can do is speculate until the complete story is revealed, unless it gets swept under the rug. regardless, since the guy wasnt a terrorist and there was no evil plot, i send my condolences to his loved ones. bad things can happen in tense situations, and its unfortunate it resulted in the death of an american, a human being. hopefully no children witnessed it.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    The latest gem reads thus: "If someone starts screaming they have a bomb and starts running off a plane, on a plane, or through the nearest concourse snack bar.... I wan't him shot. Instantly. Immediately. Right then. No waiting. And make it a kill shot." Yes, if I see a crazy guy running through a snack bar I want that place riddled with machine gun fire. Hell, why take any chances, just blow the damn place sky high to make sure he's killed right then and there. Hmmmm...sounds like our foreign policy. Anyhow, let's all get back to masturbating to snuff flicks, shall we? TTFN Whizzy.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    So... 1) Guy running around acting crazy in an airport. 2) Someone saying the guy is off his meds. 3) Crazy guy saying he has a bomb in a bag. 4) Marshall yelling 'hey,stop,dont' whatever. 5) Crazy guy reaches into bag. ...yeah, I'm holding my breath too bracing for an explosion, and hoping somone shoots this nut, probably as is everyone else in the vicinity at that moment. You don't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre, or 'bomb' anywhere else, do you? How many times per day do you even say 'bomb'? Why the hell would you do it in an airport?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Well...maybe because you're nuts and off your meds? Seriously...or not so seriously...this is 2005 and twenty years ago I'd have thought that by now we'd certainly have come up with a more high tech way of disarming crazy people/terrorists than the old-fashioned hail of bullets. Where are those Star Trek phasers that can be set on "stun" for these type of situations? Why has technology failed us here as badly as it has with the primary way to stop the spread of STDs?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Nobody should second guess the air marshall, but we can second guess the policy. The air marshall was doing the job he was hired to do, assuming he acted within the accepeted protocol. The air marshall policies should be reviewed to see if this tragedy could have been avoided. I can't help but think...couldn't somebody just tackle the guy and see there was no bomb? The shoot first mentality worries me.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    It was amazing to read through these posts and see the usual suspects take the usual positions... Righties...shoot the bastard Centrists...Shooting probably justified but unfortunate lefties...another example of American policies run rampant I'll take the central position that what is society to do? You can't protect citizens without making decisions and in this case the decision was a tough one. No tougher then 1000 cops face every year or our Soldiers in Iraq face daily? Is he or isn't he really going to do what he says he's going to do. Should I wait and find out or should I end this now? Tough decision. Some larger moral argument or policy argument is misplaced in this circumstance. This could have happened at a bank, or a mall, or a football game. If their is armed security and you threaten the populace through your actions or words you should understand that you might get shot. If you are too crazy or ill to understand then that's a tragedy but an unavoidable one.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    PPJ...So if I'm discussing the MNF game with the guy next to me on a flight and mention the bomb that Mike Vick threw, or how I got bombed on bourbon watching the game, and the air marshall five rows back only hears bomb he should start shooting? It's not that far-fetched. I overheard 2 guys discussing politics at a Jets game last year, the word terrorist was used, and the two guys spent the game locked up. Got thing they weren't discussing politics on an airplane, they night be dead. My only point was that the procedures should be reviewed to see if the shooting of unarmed mentally disturbed people can be avoided. Isn't that something worth striving for? Maybe it couldn't be avoided in this instance, you or I don't know that. I worry about your cavalier attitude in regards to human life sometimes.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Jim, Great quote by Patton (and I do admire that man from a military perspective) but it doesn't fit as a response to Dadler's statement. What country are the "terrorists" dying for? The answer is none. They are dying for a cause. And they are already more than willing to die for that cause. I know this quote is overused but a more appropriate response to Dadler's statement is: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Ben Franklin, One of the founding Fathers of the United States of America I hope this is what Dadler meant by his statement.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#49)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Actually I thought Kdog's comment was very appropriate. I Even find myself in agreement with Sailor which is about as far as I'm willing to go. (I'll be putting my lightning rod helmet today, as I'm sure it will strike me now) BTW, I had no idea that Gen G. Patton was an air marshal. I knew he had gotten in trouble, but not that he was demoted that far down.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    To paraphrase General Patton: “Nobody ever won a war by dying for their country. Wars are won by making the other guy die for his country.” You are willing to watch other peoples sons and daughters die in an unwinnable war of profit trying to preserve your way of life... in a vain and selfish hope that you can avoid risking your own life for you and for them, demanding and retaining the freedoms your country offers you... while at the same time allowing the freedoms you ask them to die for be slowly eroded a day at a time till none remain. I see... that's big of you.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Dying for your country means more than on a battlefield. We all should be more willing to die right here in the good ol' USA, in a random act of violence, than allow the FEAR of a random act of violence to turn our free society into a police state of papers and checkpoints and constant suspiscion.
    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Excellent quote edger.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    OK, there's a bit more info in, and it leads to more confusion. CNN is reporting that "Dave Adams, a spokesman for the Federal Air Marshal Service, said Alpizar had run up and down the plane's aisle yelling, "I have a bomb in my bag." Yet apparently no other passengers heard him say that. "Beshears said he did not hear Alpizar say anything. "He just was in a hurry and exited the plane," he said.

    Alpizar's wife also followed him part of the way down the aisle, then returned to her seat saying, her husband was sick and she needed to get his bags, Beshears said."     I'm starting to smell a rat. (feel better Patrick? ;-)

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    kdog, Also my mistake. The quote is Dadler's words, from "Posted by Dadler at December 7, 2005 05:17 PM" It is a gem. But, I forgot to include attribution. Sorry, Dadler.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Dadler's statement sums up my feelings of the last few years exactly. Very very very well said.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#56)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Still arguing from the assumption that official statements are basically true: The policy is not "shoot anybody who says they have a bomb". The Marshalls attempted to detain him with threats, ordering him down, and didn't shoot until he took specific action which they mistook as dangerous. This suggests that saying "bomb" in casual conversation on a plane may ruin your day, but not automatically get you shot.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#57)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Dadler, Yes, I misunderstood your point w.r.t. real terrorists yesterday. And I concede that so far the deadly force policies have resulted in one innocent death and no attacks prevented. Nor will shooting in a situation just like this one prevent the sort of organized attack over which we currently have our panties in a bunch.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    This is the continuing saga of this country becoming a police state. This is murder by cop. I ask this: if this man cleared security, isn't it reasonable to question whether or not he REALLY had a bomb? If not, then my assumptions about the TSA screening process is correct. It's all smoke and mirrors. What the holy hell are we going through this screening exercise for, if the government's own agents are going to assume it doesn't work?? The terrorists most definitely "won" on 9/11/01. This country has been on fear footing ever since. And this fear is fed by the Bush regime and everyone in law enforcement. They want you to be scared everyday. It's how they consolidate and keep power. It's how they control the citizenry. Fear. It's become the end of a free society.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    A couple points, my mother is (very) bipolar and my brother, until about 2 weeks ago, was an air marshall. I'm very sceptical that this disorder would cause this guy to say that he had a bomb or that it would cause him to run off the plane, etc., in such an irrational manner. He clearly had some problems, of course. Also, air marshalls are not cops. Specifically, unlike cops, they don't spend their days, day in and day out, dealing with the opposition. They spend almost every day schlepping luggage, eating airline food, trying not to blow their cover with the passengers they're sitting next to, and trying not to be bored out of their minds. I think dealing with this killing will be much harder for the two air marshalls to deal with than it would be for a cop who spends many (most) of his days dealing first-hand with the criminal element. Wrt this shooting, my understanding is that the goals of the air marshalls has been changing from one of on-flight protection to that of ensuring that no one gets aboard who would become a danger. Let's hope that change is successful and happens sooner rather than later.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#60)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    About 10 minutes before departure, still during the boarding process, Alpizar "uttered threatening words," informing nearby passengers that he had a bomb in his backpack, said Jim Bauer, special agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshals Miami office.
    That is quite a bit different than
    Dave Adams, a spokesman for the Federal Air Marshal Service, said Alpizar had run up and down the plane's aisle yelling, "I have a bomb in my bag.
    And once again, no other passengers have said they heard him say that. Now
    James E. Bauer, agent in charge of the air marshals' Miami field office ... said that before Alpizar ran off the plane, he "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb."
    Quite a bit different than their original story. And again:
    CNN reported that Mr Alpizar had not run off the aircraft but had walked off following a request from the air marshals.

    Mr Doyle said he could not confirm whether that was the case.
    This is sounding more and more like the London subway incident. (aside:jeebus, is jack bower really in charge, or did they make that part up too. With this admin it is so hard to tell truth from fiction;-) My prediction: The cops shot down an obviously mentally ill man while his wife ran behind him yelling he's mentally ill. Anytime the gov't changes their story so fast and so often we should all question it. The Air Marshalls, rather than the highly trained, best shots image they bragged about are actually deficient in training and humanity. Anytime you expand your work force by 100x they can't meet the same standards as when you had 33. From their manual "The marshals train in New Jersey, learning to abide by the principle: "Dominate. Intimidate. Control." That pretty much sums up the daryl gates method of policing. It doesn't work. Shouting at a mentally ill person rarely has a good result. BTW, my last prediction was that the repubs would drop the investigation of who leaked classified info about the 'black sites' gulag.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Just curious, it appears that no one on the plane heard him say he had a bomb. this reminds me of the: Pat Tillman story Jessica Lynch story Iraq's wmd were sent to syria Osama and Hussein smoked fatties together the US is safer as a result of the war on terror Take your pick. I feel badly for the marshall if the guy did in fact say he had a bomb, the marshall has to live with that the rest of his life and i cannot imagine having to deal with that. However, I thought it suspicious yesterday when not ONE passenger was claiming to have heard the bomb threat....

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    I have a few observations. The first is that, even if an individual boards a plane inside the US, if the flt originated outside the US, then the possibility that a bomb was carried on or hidden in the checked luggage at the origination point can't be discounted. It would be very easy to carry the accompanying detonation device (ie cell phone) through US security. Another observation is that one tactic a team/cell of terrorists could use to flush out the presence of Air Marshalls would be to create a situation that would cause them to respond. If the diversion could lead the responders off the air craft,then all the better, as it would make the job of seizing control of the aircraft easier for the remaining terroists. Neither of these scenarios were in play here, but the Air Marshalls didn't have the advantage of hindsight. I agree with many of the posters that this is a very unfortunate situation.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    The latest reports have the wife yelling that her husband was sick in spanish...but also that one of the marshalls speaks spanish - I would imagine probably the one who used to be a border guard. Who knows if that marshall was still on the plane when the wife was yelling this. They also report that after the marshalls chased the guy onto the jetway and told him to stop and lay down, that he turned and approached the officers saying he had a bomb as he reached into his backpack. The last part, about him refusing to submit to authority even when the cards are stacked so highly against him (in fact, doing the exact opposite of what the two guys with pointing their guns at him are telling him to do), does sound more like the actions of someone who's bipolar, so I retract my earlier comment. A freaking tragedy.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#64)
    by Tom the Barbarian on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Many years ago, I worked in a support role for several police agencies (communication technology). This guy also fits another profile that police officers dreaded, the person who wanted to commit "suicide by cop". In other words someone who wished to die but wanted it to be by another's hands. While rare, these kind of folks would place police in impossible situations where there was no right decision.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    tom, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Try following the above links.
    one other thing: I would be interested in knowing the race of the man who was shot.
    Does anyone else think the marshals would have been so quick triggered if he was white?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Mac – Patton’s comment is spot on because it emphasizes that the purpose of a war is to kill enough of the enemy to win, not to get yourself killed in some half-assed attempt to show how noble you are. As for Franklin’s comment, I agree. The problem is I see no particular loss of liberty in taking reasonable precautions against terrorist attacks. And before someone whips out the old “detainee in GITMO” comment I specify that my heart belongs to my countrymen and that it is their rights that I worry about. Democracy does walk a fine line. BTW – I hear Dadler’s sentiments tossed around a lot now days, mostly by people who I suspect have never gotten closer to death than their morning commutes. They are also the same people who claim to support the troops, but not the war. The fact that such a comment contains mutually exclusive positions seems to never enter their mind. CharlieO writes:
    This is the continuing saga of this country becoming a police state. This is murder by cop.
    The above obviously written by a man who thinks the Air Marshals have a “Time Machine” that allows them to stop everything while they consider what is happening. Edgey – See my comment to Mac. Especially the last paragraph. And I again note that I did my share. Something I don’t think you have done.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Jim,
    Mac – Patton’s comment is spot on because it emphasizes that the purpose of a war is to kill enough of the enemy to win, not to get yourself killed in some half-assed attempt to show how noble you are.
    Patton's quotes are spot on for a conventional war. The "war on terrorism" is not a conventional war.
    As for Franklin’s comment, I agree. The problem is I see no particular loss of liberty in taking reasonable precautions against terrorist attacks.
    I don't call expanding the government's power, specifically the Justice Department, to pry into any US citizen’s personal affairs for any reason without getting a warrant, reasonable. I don't call the Patriot Act reasonable. I call it one of the most irresponsible pieces of legislation by democrats and republicans. The potential for abuse as a result of the expansion in power that the Patriot Act has given the Justice Department is itself a loss of liberty for every American Citizen.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#68)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Gee guys, I hate to be a killjoy, but the thread is about an American killed by the TSA, not patton, and not you.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Sailor, you are correct. My apologies to the forum. I will try and make sure that this doesn't happen again since I know that it detracts from the topic of discussion. Again, my apologies.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#70)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:48 PM EST
    Then, a few minutes before the plane was to pull away, Alpizar bolted up the aisle and onto the jetway, where two air marshals confronted him.
    "He was belligerent. He threatened that he had a bomb in his backpack," said Brian Doyle, spokesman for the U.S. Homeland Security Department. "The officers clearly identified themselves and yelled at him to 'get down, get down.' Instead, he made a move toward the backpack."
    as opposed to
    They asked the gentleman, 'Drop your bag, drop your bag. Come to the ground. I'm a federal law enforcement officer. Police. Drop your bag,'" Adams told CNN.
    Unfortunately, we have to wait for the autopsy to find out how many bullets they pumped into him, because DHS refususes to say. Funny how they can immediately lie about what the victim said, but they have no idea how many cops and how many bullets were involved. Gee, check the freakin' empty chambers! This whole thing is really starting to stink.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:48 PM EST
    PPJ: "And I again note that I did my share" Yes...your share of masturbating to snuff flicks. More than your share, most likely. Sailor: "This whole thing is really starting to stink." Of course, I am just as shocked...SHOCKED...as you are! ;)

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:49 PM EST
    "...Lonny Glover, national safety coordinator for the Association of Professional Flight Attendants. "As the man came forward it was obvious that he was upset," Glover said. "That's when one of our attendants at the front of plane told him, 'Sir, you can't leave the plane.' His response, she said, was 'I have a bomb.' It was at that point that the air marshals gave up their cover and pursued him out the door and up the jetbridge." Another report has the couple extremely upset because thieves in Peru stole the wife's money, passport, and other items - perhaps including Alpizar's medication - just before they were to board their flight home.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#73)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:49 PM EST
    On the broad topic, a lot of significance is attached to the "B-word" in airline security. Has any real bomber ever actually said "bomb" in an airport or on a plane?

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#74)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:49 PM EST
    Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner.
    Also, he wasn't wearing a back pack, it was a fanny pack worn in front. And you can't 'drop it' unless you reach for it. 'Lonny Glover' wasn't there, and seems to directly dispute what the gov't is now claiming. Another oddity, how could the flight attendent have heard that when by all other accounts he was running up the aisle and his wife was running after him and shouting he was sick. I beleive at this point that the feds murdered an innocent brown skinned man and are lying like hell to cover it up.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:49 PM EST
    Maybe the victim figured that was the only way to get off the plane...To say the "B" word. Not to bright, but it seems clear this guy wasn't all there. I'd ask why he wasn't allowed to leave the plane? In a situation where you have a guy freakin' out like this...I'd say the best thing you could do is get him off the plane, not send him back to his seat or give him a lecture on airline policy. Let the obviously mentally ill guy leave the confined, tense airplane and deal with him in the terminal. Once again, my only hope is that the TSA does a thorough review to see if a similar tragedy can be avoided in the future.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#76)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    suo, do you have links? I haven't been able to find the
    Another report has the couple extremely upset because thieves in Peru stole the wife's money, passport, and other items - perhaps including Alpizar's medication - just before they were to board their flight home.
    While we may interpret the accounts differently, I'm still interested in reading all these accounts. TIA.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    LINK

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#78)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    Thanks suo. That article was one I had not seen.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#79)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    Posted by Sailor at December 7, 2005 03:54 PM Actually, we might want to wait for facts, so far all we have is an AM and DHS saying the man said he had a bomb.
    Then on December 9 at 1223 pm
    I beleive at this point that the feds murdered an innocent brown skinned man and are lying like hell to cover it up.
    Why'd you have to go and do that? How much investigation could have been done between then and now and be reported accurately by the press? And just when I was starting to agree with you. P.S. No lightning, but I almost got killed by an old lady wearing those 5 inch wide sun glasses. This horse is well beaten.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    This is the continuing saga of this country becoming a police state. This is murder by cop.
    Please watch your step as you are about to fall off of the left hand side of the earth. ...and take your meds!

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#81)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    Patrick, the gov't has now made several statements that are contradictory. Facts still aren't in, but that doesn't seem to stop them from spewing 'facts' that are mutually exclusive. Maybe the MSM misquoted them ... every time. From AM's to DHS to the WH, the story keeps changing. In my experience when the gov't, instead of saying 'we are investigating and when we find out we'll let you know', says definitely this happened ... no this happened, no ignore that, this is what happened, then I call BS. P.S. It's the old ladies in 5" THICK glasses you need to worry about;-)

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#82)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    Sailor, I'm certainly not saying trust the gov't, but I think it's wise to wait. I think the 24-hours news cycle it to blame for much of the conflicting statements. At this point we're all at the whin and mercy of someone else's interpretation.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    Here's some eyewitness testimony: "The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am." Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb." "This was wrong," McAlhany said. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead." Seems him and his wife were returning from missionary work: Neighbors said the couple had been returning to their home from a missionary trip to Ecuador. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organization said in a statement. And fear not air travelers, the gov't got things in check: David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said he thinks the shooting may prove more "reassuring than disturbing" to the traveling public his organization represents. "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business," he said. But...err...ya gotta be prepared for a little ruff handling: Armed police boarded the aircraft after the shooting, with some passengers in hysterics. McAlhany said he remembers having a shotgun pressed into his head by one officer, and hearing cries and screams from many passengers aboard the aircraft after the shooting in the jetway. ---------------- Hey Patrick, wouldn't that be a cool job? You get to terrorize any people you suspect of being terrorists!

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    What a long list of BS.... Funny how most of the lefties on here want to immediately 'hang' the air marshalls. After all, we all know the general "lefty" rule is that NOBODY is responsible for their actions...it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault. A guy acts insane...threatens other people and it's someone else's fault he's now dead! Dadler.... It just doesn't add up. We're not talking about protecting ourselves from "terrorists" here, but protecting ourselves from the mentally ill and bombless. I see you have ALL the answers... so I would suggest you do your civic duty and sign up. You obvoiusly would have made that snap decsion the "right" way and would now be a hero! And, if you are ever wrong, you can follow in Edgar's footsteps..... We all should be more willing to die right here in the good ol' USA, in a random act of violence, than allow the FEAR of a random act of violence to turn our free society into a police state of papers and checkpoints. Unfortunatey, though.... several hundred other people would die with you....but that's the way it goes huh? BTW....if you are travelling with someone who is bi-polar, (especially your spouse) wouldn't you make sure the meds were taken!

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#85)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    BB, I don't have all the answers, I have strong opinions forged from soul-searching and imagination. And I don't snark and make childish snipes at people anymore, not even PPJ, because I've learned dialogue is more important than monologue. I listen to their arguments and address what they say. So...how do you think gunning down the mentally ill and ultimately harmless serves any public good? It requires NO training, and you or I could do it. Thinking this has anything to do with protection from genuine bombers makes no sense to me. Use logic and tell me how it does. I've lived in the ghetto and on welfare, my friend. I've HAD guns pointed at me in anger, right here in the U.S.. Thought I was gonna die both times and pissed my pants, literally. You ever had a shotgun barrell two feet from your face? You ever had a Glock pointed at you by a gang member you assumed was going to blow your head off? I KNOW what it's like to think you're going to die, right on the streets of your own nation. More than once. And I didn't call for a police state. You ever work in an inner-city school and try to teach kids whose parents are drug addicts? Where gang shootings could be heard clearly from campus? Don't blow smoke unless you know your ass can back it up. I don't need to follow my corrupt and incompetent leaders, like a good totalitarian subject, to serve my nation. I only need to use my free American mind and follow my conscience. So...you're not willing to die here in America for your freedom? You don't understand the difference between setting up a fear-based police state and courageously toughing it out? Have a fun time judging more people you don't know, don't attempt to know, and know nothing about. At least I make the attempt to engage you. I feel none of that from you with this post. Peace, my fellow free American.

    Re: Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have (none / 0) (#86)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    bb, try reading an above timeline about how the gov't kept changing their stories from the 'man running up and down the aisle shouting he had a bomb' to 'he only said it in the jetway where we were the only witnesses.' to "According to law enforcement officials, he "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb." doesn't the changing story bother you? Shouldn't there be some agency besides the one involved investigating it? sounds just like the brits lies about the subway 'terrorist' they murdered.

    Air Marshals Kill American Who Claimed to Have a Bomb | 86 comments (86 topical)