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"Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering From PTSD

Remember the "Marlboro Man" Marine? He's now 21 and home from Iraq, suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

The photo of the 'Marlboro Man' in Fallujah became a symbol of the Iraq conflict when it ran in newspapers across America in 2004. Now the soldier has returned home to Kentucky,where he battles the demons of post-traumatic stress.

....The man in the photograph is James Blake Miller, now 21, and he is an icon, although in ways [Dan] Rather probably never imagined. He's quieter now -- easier to anger. He turns to fight at the sound of a backfire, can't look at fireworks without thinking of fire raining down on a city. He has trouble sleeping, and when he does, his fingers twitch on invisible triggers. The diagnosis: post-traumatic stress disorder.

How did the Marines' react to him becoming a recognizable symbol? They asked him to leave Fallujah to ensure he didn't die and become a public relations nightmare.

The Marines wanted to pull him out of Fallujah at that point, Miller said, not wanting the very public poster boy to die in combat. But he stayed.

After getting home, and being diagnosed with PTSD, the military wasn't done with him. They sent him to New Orleans to help with the Katrina disaster.

Finally, Miller went to a military psychiatrist, who diagnosed him with signs of post-traumatic stress disorder. Miller thought that meant he could not be deployed. But in early September, he joined a group of Marines headed to police New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

"I really didn't want to go. ... There was a possibility we would be shooting people," he said. "We could be going into another (urban warfare) environment just like Iraq, except this would actually be U.S. citizens. "Here we go, Fallujah 2, right here in the states."

Then they sent him to help with Hurricane Rita, where this happened.

One day, as Miller headed for the smoke deck with a Marlboro, a passing sailor made a whistling sound just like a rocket-propelled grenade. "I don't remember grabbing him. I don't remember putting him against the bulkhead. I don't remember getting him down on the floor. I don't remember getting on top of him. I don't remember doing any of that s -- ," Miller said. "That was like the last straw."

Finally, one year after his picture appeared, he got an honorable discharge. But his life is changed. So is he.

The man who left was easygoing, quick to laugh, happy to sit in a relative's house and eat and smoke and talk. The man who came back is quick to anger, they say, and is quiet. He still smiles often but does not easily laugh.

And when he takes a seat in his adoptive grandmother's home, amid her collection of ceramic Christ figurines, it is in a chair that faces the door. Mildred Childers, who owns those figurines, sees Miller's difficulties as a crisis of faith. She still remembers Miller's call just before the assault on Fallujah, and his terrible question: "How can people go to church and be a Christian and kill people in Iraq?"

Many of his fellow marines from Iraq are equally bad, if not worse straits. Just like the Vietnam vets before them:

Recently, some of his Marine buddies have been calling Miller up, crying drunk, and remembering their war experiences. Just like Papaw Joe Lee used to do when Miller was a boy.

"There's a lot of Vietnam vets ... they don't heal until 30, 40 years down the road," Miller said. "People bottle it up, become angry, easily temperamental, and hell, before you know it, these are the people who are snapping on you."

Jessica interrupted. "You're already like that," she said.

Miller's views on the war have changed a bit.

There was no time for such questions in Fallujah. But now, at night, when he can't sleep, Miller thinks of the men he saw through his rifle scope, and wonders: Were they terrorists fighting against America? Or men fighting to protect their homes?

"I mean, how would we feel if they came over and started something here?" he asked. "I'm glad that I fought for my country. But looking back on it, I wouldn't do it all over again."

In 2005, 317,000 vets were treated for PTSD. How is the military going to care for these soldiers in the long-term? They are casualties of war. A piece of them died over there. The cost of Bush's war just keeps getting higher and higher.

In March, it will be three years since the U.S. invaded Iraq. 2,241 (pdf) members of our military have died and more than 15,000 troops have been wounded in action. We didn't find Osama. Saddam didn't have meaningful ties to al-Qaeda or weapons of mass destruction. We took out a tyrant and saved some Iraqis, but look what we did to our own in the process.

Enough already.

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    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#1)
    by Punchy on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 11:43:34 AM EST
    In March, it will be two years since the U.S. invaded Iraq. THREE years, JM, three. Three really long, ugly-a** years. Lots of dead people, all for a "democracy".

    Thanks, I fixed it.

    Now is when we discover what all those magnetic ribbons really stand for.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Do we have any accurate numbers on Iraqi casualties, including those that have sought help for PTSD? I mean, I know them people r' different n' us, n' theyre all tareists, but I thought someone might have some info.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 01:29:13 PM EST
    Jondee, there is the Iraq Body Count Database, reported civilian deaths in the Iraq war and occupation. The Iraq Body Count Visual Aid has American Military Casualties, and Iraqi Civilian Casualties. There is also the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count. I'm not aware of any that have info re PTSD.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#6)
    by jen on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 01:36:53 PM EST
    These young people are going to need help. I am afraid they will not get the help they need from the VA. I guess their best chance is from the vets from gulf war 1 and vietnam.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 01:44:50 PM EST
    Political Cortex has good discussions on the subject and the commenters there are well informed. I found a reference there to a current (this month) article in Psychiatric Times: Hidden Combat Wounds: Extensive, Deadly, Costly. Jen, you're right I think. More help than they are likely to get from this administration, I fear.

    A recently released in-depth Pentagon study, coordinated by a retired general, concluded our military men and women are very seriously overstressed. Donald Rumsfeld responded by brushing the study aside as "nonsense" and went on to add his opinion that our troops were happy, healthy and--he actually said this--"combat hardened," thus proving himself to be so out of touch with reality that he actually makes his bureaucratic ancestor, Robert S. McNamara, look and sound like a reasonable man. Because of such deliberate indifference at the top of the military command structure, the men and women in the lower ranks are being recycled through Iraq and Afghanistan over and over, and the potential for serious psychological problems at some future time becomes greater and greater with each combat tour. The soldiers and Marines are young, energetic and healthy (i.e, if they're not dead or wounded) and they probably aren't able to see the problems taking root now. That's the thing about PTSD, it takes root silently, it is insidious and, like cancer, it takes a while to strike, but for those destined to suffer, eventually it will hit like an earthquake, a hurricane, and a flood all at once. Colonel/Congressman John Murtha recently said, in conjunction with his call for withdrawal of the American military from Iraq, that combat "sears the soul." He knows whereof he speaks. Soldiers and Marines have experiences, and record the most unspeakably horrible images in their memories, that will haunt them for life, regardless of whether they are volunteers or conscripts, regardless of whether they are strong or weak, regardless of whether they are conservative or liberal, regardless of whether they are devoutly religious or complete atheists. Readers of this comment section who are criminal defense lawyers who care about veterans should study up on PTSD. A year, or five or ten years from now--just as in the post-Vietnam 1970's and '80's--there is going to be a group of war veterans in trouble with the criminal law because of PTSD, and they are going to need knowledgeable, effective legal representation and, by then, as was the case with the Vietnam vets, the world will have forgotten the war, and the warriors will be pretty much on their own. Terry Kindlon

    Terry, thanks. That was my point in posting the article. These vets will need all sorts of help, and I worry that they won't get it.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 03:37:11 PM EST
    Terry - Let me add my thanks. I have known two, one a friend and one an acquaintance, veterans who have suffered for years. They have been in and out of hospitals, and it was only about 15 years ago that the medical profession started really recognizing/understanding. Especially if the person lived away from the major medical centers in larger cities. Jen - The VA is better now than it was, but we should keep them in our attention.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#11)
    by Rational on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 04:51:04 PM EST
    Wouldn't the first step in healing being that these people confess to the war crimes they have committed? If they had the moral fibre to not obey illegal orders and engage in an illegal war by illegal methods they would not be facing these problems. But thier obvious lack of ethics has lead them to commit crimes that, even these morally bankrupt individuals, are having trouble living with. So like any 12 step program or truth commission won't it be necessary for them to face the reality of thiers sins before they can even hope to get better?

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimcee on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 05:21:36 PM EST
    Sadly PTSS is not new but on the 'plus' side it is recognised. Finally. I grew up with many WW2 and Korean vets who adapted to life with the best they could do w/o much help from the VA. They seemed to deal with us 60/70's kids with honest impunity. They were my hockey coaches who had survived horendous war situations; tail gunners who were sole survivors and men who had lost thier lower legs in combat in Korea. They were always gently honest with thier criticisms but really good coaches. Mr Miller's photo is iconic. So is the life of the man who was photographed. Soldiers have to come from somwhere. The story is less about soldiers that come home and have adjustment problems than it is that there are less of them and so thier PTSS treatment should be complete. Unlike in past wars where it was pretty much only for those that were driven to psychosis by thier experiences. Either way, whether he likes it or not, that was a great photo and I hope he gets the rights to it in toto. Perhaps whoever took that shot could send all thier receipts to Mr James Blake Miller. Somehow I doubt he'll see a cent of it. much more rare thing. More attention is being paid to those that do return home and hopefully that will help these soldiers.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimcee on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 05:26:34 PM EST
    Please allow me to add: 'As a'to my last post, last line. Pardons all around.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 05:27:28 PM EST
    rational, That's not too rational. And it's pretty cold hearted as well, I'm afraid. If there is any morality that needs considering here is it the morality of the (illegal?) and immoral leadership that immoraly sends these young men and women to fight an illegal war. The U.S is still a country where people grow up taught that the president is a leader, an honest man dedicated to preserving freedom, and defending the constitution, the country, and it's citizens. They grow up taught that one of the highest honors and services they can perform for their country and their families and neighbors is to don the uniform in military service in the trust that their leaders are honorable men and women, and fight and risk their lives for those leaders and those they leave behind at home. In this war Iraq they have been lied to and misled, surely, in the most immoral ways possible, by the people they have been taught since birth would never let them down, would give them every bit of support possible in the name of their country, as honorable leaders. Your outrage about a lack of moral fiber is understandable, needed, and right. But it is misdirected... give them a break. Most of them are just kids. Most of them are only in their twenties. Be angry. Be very angry. Justifiable angry. But direct it at the human monsters who have taken advantage of young minds and lives for their own profit.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 05:46:14 PM EST
    Regarding the legality of this "war"; The United States Constitution makes treaties that are signed by the government equivalent to the "law of the land" itself, Article VI, para. 2. Among the international laws and treaties that a U.S. pre-emptive attack on Iraq may violate are: · The Hague Convention on Land Warfare of 1899, which was reaffirmed by the U.S. at the 1946 Nuremberg International Military Tribunals; · Resolution on the Non-Use of Nuclear Weapons and Prevention of Nuclear War, adopted UN General Assembly, Dec 12, 1980; · Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; December 9, 1948, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the UN General Assembly; · Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, Adopted on August 12, 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War; · Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques, 1108 U.N.T.S. 151, Oct. 5, 1978; · The Charter of the United Nations; · The Nuremberg Principles, which define as a crime against peace, "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for accomplishment of any of the forgoing." To any AD military reading this: The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ. The orders you are receiving to deploy to Iraq are illegal. You will continue to fight for as long as necessary because there are not enough replacements. YOU are now the draftees, as are your brothers in the National Guard. It is your DUTY to refuse your deployment orders and stand down. The machines are rigged. We can't do it. It's up to you. Only you can stop the killing.

    rational: Wouldn't the first step in healing being that these people confess to the war crimes they have committed? experience with PTSD suggests not. "Trauma Focus Group Therapy" can be helpful and effective for the right PTSD patients at the right time. But to assume that what all PTSD patients need is to "get it all out" in some magical catharsis is wrong, cruel, and counter-productive. A VA psychologist has reported that:
    ...A number of authors have discussed potential negative effects of trauma focus therapy if patients aren't carefully selected. Retraumatization can occur if patients are unprepared to engage memories or if the process occurs too rapidly (16). Retraumatized patients simply "re-live" the event in therapy, feeling isolated and emotionally overwhelmed, re-experiencing a loss of control. Dramatic forms of dissociation may occur (1) and for some patients there is a risk of substance abuse relapse (17) or "flight from treatment." Judith Herman (16) has suggested that premature trauma focus therapy may result from a common fantasy of a violent, cathartic, rapid "cure," a fantasy sometimes shared by both patient and clinician, and also reflected in the exorcism myths of many cultures. Dr. Herman has suggested that the first stage of recovery from trauma involves establishing safety on several levels� before proceeding to remembrance of trauma and mourning, followed by the third stage, reconnection to others and to disavowed aspects of oneself.


    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 06:00:58 PM EST
    rational - There are times in which I despair at the comments of those who will not sow, but who expect to reap. Your comments took me to that point. I must either curse you or bless you. In my youth and now, in my bad days, I would curse. Thankfully I can say, bless you. Those you offend are better off having you on the outside, looking in. May God love you. I can not. And may you never know the devils that dance in their heads. And may you someday understand the scarfices that they gave for you.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 06:03:17 PM EST
    And may you never know the devils that dance in their heads. Well put, Jim.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#19)
    by Rational on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 06:15:05 PM EST
    Haven't we been told that we have a "professional" army. No draftees but voleenteers who are better trained, better paid and conspiciously more ethicaly challenged. Part of being a professional is knowing the rules. An obligation if one is given a weapon and license to use it is to use it in an ethical manner. To argue that an excuse for bringing dishonor to our country is that they were "just obeying orders" is unacceptable. After all the hype about the advantages of a "professional" army to claim that these people are innocent naifs who have been mislead is hypocrisy.

    You got that right, edger. Plato is reported to have said, "Be kind to everyone you meet. They are engaged in a difficult battle..." That goes for our vets, our commenters, bloggers, politicians, taxi drivers, and everyone else. When I forget this rule and am unkind, I've always come to regret it.

    You got that right, edger. Plato is reported to have said, "Be kind to everyone you meet. They are engaged in a difficult battle..." That goes for our vets, our commenters, bloggers, politicians, taxi drivers, and everyone else. When I forget this rule and am unkind, I've always come to regret it.

    rational, you expressed similar and equally unsympathetic points in another recent thread about vets returning home and suffering with PTSD. It can be hard to tolerate, but is a fact that a person can be, simultaneously, both culpable aggressor and sympathetic victim.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 06:31:44 PM EST
    to claim that these people are innocent naifs who have been mislead is hypocrisy They have been "memed" into it since birth. Yes, we all have the responsibility to make judgements about the rightness or wrongness of what we do, and of what we are asked to do, and ordered to do. Some can see through the memes. For some it takes a little longer. For some, it never happens. They did not, and they would not, have sent themselves there had they not been taught since birth that the president, not the man(?) holding the office, but "The President of the United States of America", is an honorable and moral and true man. The man(?) currently holding that office is not a man:
    ...the yo-yo president of the U.S.A. knows nothing. He is a dunce. He does what he is told to do, says what he is told to say, poses the way he is told to pose. He is a fool. This is not the time to have a bogus rich kid in charge of the White House. ...if the president lies and acts giddy about other people's lives, if he wantonly and stupidly endorses mass murder by definition, he is a loud and meaningless animal with no functional intelligence and no balls.
    Give the kids a break. Focus on who sent them there.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 07:02:51 PM EST
    Jim: in my bad days, I would curse. OT (I think), but I hope for you that the good days outnumber the bad.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 07:21:40 PM EST
    rational - These men and women have not engaged in debates within the coffee shop of the web. Their desires aren't to prove how smart they are. They answer a simple calling. To defend and fight for their country. As you have judged them, I hope that some day you will be judged. I hope that you have their courage. But I do not believe that you will.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#26)
    by Rational on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 07:55:25 PM EST
    "... both culpable aggressor and sympathetic victim." I absolutely agree. I do have sympathy. On a purely pragmatic level I know this is/will be a pain spread through the body politic. Society will "pay" for this one way or the other. (personally I prefer that we do so with hospitals/clinics rather then jails.) But Reinholdt Niebuhr's describition of "carnivorous sheep" is the example that I fear. The myth of the military as the "innocent victim" scares me. Victim yes but innocent I think not. The history of similiar myths in the past does not bode well. I dread that if we do not face this "myth" that it will be the source of more victims every day that will keep us on a tread mill that will bankrupt us financially, morally, in international relations, at home and in our homes. Historically that has seemed to have been the case. So mea culpa if I seem callous I simply am concerned what the result will be if we accept the image/"myth" of the military being completely blaimless "innocent" victims.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 08:11:48 PM EST
    "... both culpable aggressor and sympathetic victim." I absolutely agree. I do have sympathy... I simply am concerned what the result will be if we accept the image/"myth" of the military being completely blaimless "innocent" victims. No one is completely innocent in this, rational. Not the troops, not us, not the president, not the society, not the country. And I think myself and others here saw only condemnation, and no sympathy, in your earlier remarks. Now we can. At least I do, anyway. The others will speak for themselves. On a related note, I know as well that I learned some things about myself tonight in this thread. I hope everyone did... Peace.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 08:26:26 PM EST
    Dear Rational, I'm sure you have lived the most perfect lifestyle that has never hurt anyone or any thing. You've never eaten a slice of beef as it might hurt a cow, never caught a fish because of thier pain on the hook, never pulled a weed because it was the destruction of life for your imperialistic gardening desires. You have never tread on a trail into the wilderness as it might frighten a deer or compress a worm. As a matter of fact you had never caused your mother pain upon your birth and have never argued with your father. You were the perfect student who only used recycled paper because you couldn't harm a tree. You've never driven an automobile because you might harm an animal while behind the wheel and besides you would never stoop so low as to endanger the world with those hydrocarbonistic ways. No, I'm sure you are perfect. You live in an unheated house wearing clothes made only from humanely derived fabrics. You eat only the veggies that you can guaruantee were humanely raised and killed. You walk everywhere never even taking mass transit lest you might willfuly consume something that might hurt someone, something somewhere. If not you, yourself are a mercenary and a hypocritical one at that. You use a computer to communicate on this thread so you use electricity which was probably generated from fossil fuel. So you have contributed to what some would call the 'War for Oil'. And so according to you, you deserve to rot in Hell because of your voluntary use of energy to fuel your rants on this site. Funny how rationizing things becomes irrational, eh? Sheesh.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 08:27:57 PM EST
    On a related note, I know as well that I learned some things about myself tonight in this thread. I hope everyone did... Peace.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#30)
    by Rational on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 08:38:22 PM EST
    Not being perfect I do see sins much like I see speeding. 5 miles over is "not right" 30 miles over is "wrong". So I admit to my lack of perfection but that does not reach taking a man's family hostage, after he surrenders, in uniform, torturing him and then murdering by suffocating him in a sleeping bag. So sorry No.

    rat, I just think it's weird that you keep choosing the threads that are about soldiers who are suffering from mental illness to express your anger. It's misplaced.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#32)
    by Rational on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 10:56:19 PM EST
    It is not anger that drives me. It is these threads that is creating the "framing" of the myth. So it has been that these sort of myths must be challenged in the beginning to limit the damage they may cause. In the 20th century alone started with the Czar using this type of myth to start a pogram against Jews after the the defeat in 1905. Through the German military being "stabbed in the back" to after WW I to justify WW II through to the myth of victory in Viet Nam being stolen by the press and liberals that feeds the parania of the neocons today. So I am worried that after we leave Iraq a failed state as a suzientry of Iran the myth being created here of the liberals preventing our poor innocent military from winning will cause yet another murderous rampage in the future. To exalt those who are all to willing enablers of this shame with out facing up to the reality of the military's role is to invite further blindness of ethics and help indoctrinate another cohort to the idea that "obeying" orders excuses all sins. No let us help those in trouble but in the same manner that we would try to rehabilitat a criminial who committed a crime as a result of peer pressure from the mafia, gangs, or other groups. No I do not accept heaping praise on them for their moral failure and then try to help them become "normal". Just as with any criminial or addict I feel that without a recognician of the crimes rehabiliation is impossible.

    Rational, these people are liberals. They don't believe in personal responsibility.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#34)
    by jen on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 04:23:50 AM EST
    rational, They have been changed. They are in pain. Is spitting on them going to help anything? You want them to see the error of their ways? Maybe they need to regain sanity first, mmmm? aaaah f**kit. These kids need help. There is no other consideration.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 05:20:50 AM EST
    These kids need help. There is no other consideration. Exactly, Jen...

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 08:33:54 AM EST
    rational writes:
    No I do not accept heaping praise on them for their moral failure and then try to help them become "normal". Just as with any criminial or addict I feel that without a recognician of the crimes rehabiliation is impossible.
    Are you against all wars, or are you just against this war? You are starting to sound like a Bush Hater At Work. Either way, the freedoms you so richly enjoy have been purchased over the past 230 years by men and women like those you denigrate. I am embarassed for you.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#38)
    by Rational on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 09:33:41 AM EST
    I am against illegal wars pursued by illegal methods. It is the thugs in uniform today who by relying on the Nuremberg defense that disrespect and dishonor the sacrifice of those who wore those uniforms with honor in the past. It is in the name of those that I bring up the shame of today. Yes I agree that the soldiers are hurting. But remember this is a "professional" army that is, on the average, older and with more training then any force the US had fielded in any previous major combat. So young as they may appear they are not truly "kids" if they are "kids" for gods sake take the guns away from them since children should not be allowed to play with guns. I agree the soldiers are "hurting" but they are hurting, in part, from self inflicted wounds. If we are to ignore the destructive behavior that lead these people to create thier own hell why do we not expect them to create another and another? As I said yes give them treatment but in the same manner that we would should be giving treatment to a gang banger, drug addict or any other soul in pain as a result of bad moral and ethical decisions. I think that we should try to rehabilaitate them for society's sake and thier own well being. Obviously any individual who have voleenteerly joined a group think that justifies torture, hostage taking and murder needs help. But ignoring, or even extolling, the crimes they committ is no way to help.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 11:24:43 AM EST
    My guess is that "rational" is a shill and voted 3 times for Bush. Not worthy of a comment or an argument. Shameful, this man's condition and even more shameful that we did not have to be in Iraq. Iran, who is more a threat than Iraq ever was, and who is more fitting of a regime change, will continue to pursue a nuke while we waste away in Iraq. Prior to jumping into Iran though, we should disarm North Korea and change that awful regime first. Why on earth we went and attacked the country that posed the least threat to us in light of Iran and N Korea's behavior over the past 20 years is beyond comprehension.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 12:00:27 PM EST
    Jlvngstn: My guess is that "rational" is a shill I agree, after his last post above. He's repetitively expressed the opinion that PTSD is a moral failing, and made no effort to hold the administration accountable for the war and the personal hell of PTSD these soldiers find themselves in. Simple tactic. Shift the blame to the victims. Same as the attitude towards Lindy England and Graner. Sure what they did was wrong. Would they have done it without encouragement from and even direct orders from superior officers, who are in the same bind, all the way up the chain of command, chain of responsibility, and chain of accountability... which ends at the commander in chief, who currently is "a loud and meaningless animal with no functional intelligence and no balls"? Simpler answer. No, they would not have. And no, they would not be now coming home either dead, or physically or psychologically maimed, if they hadn't been sent to Iraq by and for the profit of these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today.

    Is Rational aware that many people in New York who were there during September 11 experienced PTSD symptoms? Was that their fault too? Rational is sadly playing into the "few bad apples" argument. It conveniently lets the architects of wars off the hook... Meh. Rational seems to be a troll, all right, probably just hoping for evidence that lefties are heartless soldier-haters. (By the way, it's "their", not "thier", not that good spelling would help your argument.)

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#42)
    by Rational on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 02:45:30 PM EST
    I do not believe that PTSD is a moral failing. What I do believe is that for people to voleenteerly go into situations where it is a given that many of them will suffer from PTSD and that the situation they are going into is comparable to a criminial activity that any treatment will require a recognition of the poor judgement that lead them there. As a society it is necessary for us to recognize that to nurture a group of people whose moral and ethical compasses are so awry that they can justify torture and murder is threatening to the society as a whole. Just as Sicilians recognize that noble as the mythical origins of the Mafia may have been to continue to escuse their bad acts in the name of a myth is damaging to the society as a whole. So must we recognize that to have a military that are willing participants in an illegal war and engaging in such uncivilized behavior as hostage taking, torture and murder is damaging to our society. PTSD strikes the guilty and the innocent. Just as any malady it should be treated. But in the cases of those who have courted this malady by engaging in bad acts so should education on the error of thier ways be part of the treatment. The same way that a herion addict suffering from hepatitis or a sex worker suffering from a STD so must the military accept that they are not innocent victims that are having this plague visited upon them. Treatment by all means but as with any other illness that is a result, in the case of the military in Iraq, of criminial behavior the behavior has to be addressed as well as the symtoms of that behavior. I agree that those giving the orders have just as much, if not more, culpability in these crimes but the Nurmeberg defense that one was "just obeying orders" does not absolve those on the ground from guilt.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 02:47:00 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - If you can not find it in your heart to condemn the comments put forth by rational you have my full and complete sympathy. And your attack on my defense of the people who have fought and died for our country seems a bit much to me, but others can decide that. I decline to argue with you. I would make one samll comment. What facts would you like me to bring forward that haven't been brought forth by Terry Kindlon and others. My comment was merely that I found him out of line and that I was embarrased by him. Your attempt to call that a personal attack is laughable.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 03:20:15 PM EST
    et al - Actually rational has been been here before. His positions are the same, and it appears that he wants to post on a thread that contains comments about problems of returning service men and women. Is he a shill? I have no idea. My past creates such a bias in me that I would say no. He sounds like an over the edge person inflamed by the rhetoric of the left.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#45)
    by Rational on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 04:38:12 PM EST
    No I am not a shill, a troll, inflamed by anything other then logic or whatever else you wish to label me so as to ignore the issues being discussed and hide in a coccoon of jingoism and emotional tripe. If we do not learn from the past we will repeat it. I worry that our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren will be offered up as sacrifices after having been manipulated by the same John Wayne we can do no wrong lies. Do people buy into the "few bad apples" theory? I do not. I would have greater peace of mind if I could but no it goes beyond a "few bad apples". The failure of the military to instill enough ethics and morals into the soldiers so that when they have the moral fortitude to say NO when they are given an illegal orders such as to torture and kill prisoners. Does any one seriously deny that torture and murder under orders are occuring? We can not have it both ways. We can't say that it is unfair to buy into the theory of a few bad apples because it relieves the guilt of the political and military masters while at the same time claiming that the soldiers are innocent victims. They voleenteered. They supported a war monger twice. Someone is actually on the ground committing these crimes. Evil as I believe this junta is a don't think that rummy et.al. would deign to get thier hands dirty by committing the actual deeds they order/suggest/condone. So treatment yes but acknowledge that any organization that can take "normal" people and make them willing participants in such obhorent behavior is a dangerous and ethically bankrupt institution. To ignore and deny the sins being committed is to condone them. I do not condone torture. I do not honor torturers. I do not condone the murder of prisoners. I will not praise those that commit murder. I do not condone the idea of hostage taking. I cannot accept those that do. I hope we could learn from our mistakes but it seems all to obvious that too many wish to hide the crimes of this war and rather then face an uncomfortable reality prefer to retreat behind behind a haze of emotionalism mixed in with the fog of jingoism. I go back to a simple truth. This is an illegal war pursued by illegal methods. Participants in a crime are criminials. That such criminials need help is obvious. But treatment cannot be successful until the guilt of the crimes are acknowledged.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 04:47:04 PM EST
    This is an illegal war pursued by illegal methods. Participants in a crime are criminials. And the people who started this war? Cheney, Bush, PNAC, et al? Your suggestions are what, exactly?

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#47)
    by Rational on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 05:26:43 PM EST
    "And the people who started this war? Cheney, Bush, PNAC, et al? Your suggestions are what, exactly?" There is not a prison foul enough or a punishment odious enough for that trash. In an ideal world they get turned over to the Iraqis as prisoners to try and punish appropiately. Lacking an ideal world "Nuremberg" style tribunal. In reality they will get off scot free and the press will hail them and the soldiers they have condemned to emotional hells will hail them as looking out for the average grunt. Just as the rethuglicans rewrote history to become the hero's of Viet Nam while those who served ( i.e. Gore, Kerry, Murtha) were painted as traitors and poseurs. I do not think that even Dante could imagine a hell to do justice for thier crimes.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 05:37:39 PM EST
    I see. I then apologize to you for my post of 1:00PM And apologize for using a too often used tactic of making you deny accusations, and for the accusations themselves.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 05:53:15 PM EST
    To all: I said last night that I've learned some things about myself in this thread. My treatment of rational was in some senses no better than, and to be painfully honest, lowering myself to use, the tactics so often and continually used by by bushco and by the wingers here, of making acccusations to force people to deny them. It is an ugly tactic, and I am not at all proud of myself for using it here. If we become what we fight against, we have no right to condemn an opponent for what he does.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 07:41:39 PM EST
    rational writes:
    I go back to a simple truth. This is an illegal war pursued by illegal methods. Participants in a crime are criminials. That such criminials need help is obvious. But treatment cannot be successful until the guilt of the crimes are acknowledged.
    "Okay, you guys in the back! Got the rack ready? Branding irons hot?" "Judge not less you be judged," dear rational.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 07:46:50 PM EST
    rational - BTW - The basis of your complaint is the war is illegal. It is not. So you can posture all you want, but you have no basis in fact.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 07:50:27 PM EST
    rational may not be a shill, but he is a joke. If he were serious he wouldn't be making his complaints and accusations on a thread that is about mental illness. There are plenty of threads on this website that are actually about the war and war crimes. Serious conversations about his expressed concerns would be on those threads, or if he can't wait for one, on an open thread.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 12:50:03 AM EST
    DA, Bush himself could walk out on stage in front of a room full of cameras and reporters, state unequivocally that "The war against Iraq that I initiated was and is an illegal war of aggression by all international and generally accepted definitions. But when I took office in 2000 I issued a secret signing statement defining my intentions regarding the constitution, internationl law and treaties, stating that as president I am not obligated to follow any of them." And Jim would roll over to have his belly scratched.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 07:44:19 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Congress acted and there are around 20 UN resolutions... I assume you have forgotten those. And yes, others may not agree. You and they have the right to be wrong. Even Germany who we spent years defending can disagree. Of course as Alito will be confirmed today it appears that foreign laws will have much less influence on us than they have had, or might have had. And yes, he is condemning any and all that served. Note that he did not answer my question.
    Are you against all wars, or are you just against this war?
    An answer of yes to the former would be an understandable position. The latter is only selective morality and based more on frustration at a perceived loss of power than any real loss. edger - Nice demonstration of Goodwin's Law. punisher - People who take rational's tact are not new. Regardless of attempts by some to rewrite history military people were spit at, cursed at, etc., during Vietnam. Perhaps he is just more honest that many. You can't be for the troops and against the war anymore than you can be for the carpenter and against the house. One is the product of the other and neither can exist without the other. I rarely make this point becaise I understand that many think they can and emotional positions are mostly unchangable. But we can all be for the troops after their battle is done.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:23:16 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - You can, and often have, claimed a variety of things. My position is simple and remains the same. rational's comments regarding our forces, and especially the one suffering with PTSD, are unacceptable to me. That you fail to condem them speaks volumes about you.

    Re: "Marlboro Man" Marine is Home and Suffering Fr (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 07:24:24 AM EST
    This paragraph from the VVA in "A Short History of PTSD: From Thermopylae to Hue, Soldiers Have Always Had A Disturbing Reaction To War" is a good description of the psychological state of American society since 9/11, and may help in understanding much of the insanity that seems to have overtaken the country in it's support of the policies of the bush administration since:
    We also know PTSD doesn't confine itself strictly to the war experience. Samuel Pepys was an Englishman who lived in London during the 1600s. His surviving diary provides an excellent record of the development of PTSD. In writing of the Great Fire of London in 1666, Pepys recounts people's terror and frustration at being unable to protect their property or stop the fire. Pepys writes: "A most horrid, malicious, blood fire. . . . So great was our fear. . . . It was enough to put us out of our wits."