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Saturday Open Thread

It's too beautiful to stay in Denver today, so I'm headed to Vail. There's lots to read and talk about in the blogoshphere:

  • Digby on Joe DiGenova (Mr. Victoria Toensing)'s "hissy fit" on Wolf's show yesterday while debating the terrific Richard Ben-Veniste. I can add from personal experience it is not an infrequent occurrence that he blows his stack, and it's very humorous to watch. Maybe Crooks and Liars will get the video up.
  • Peter Daou on Scandal Fatigue. I thought I was the only wondering what was so important about the British guy from Boston being arrested for his wife and child's murder that required 24/7 coverage from the cable news networks.
  • Raw Story and BradBlog (both with audio) on the She Pundit With Long Blond Hair's latest attack on Muslims. There's a reference to a comment by her about missing her opportunity to "kill" Bill Clinton, but I wonder whether she was referring to killing him or doing something else with him.

Coulter on killing Bill Clinton: (Responding to a question from a Catholic University student about her biggest moral or ethical dilemma) "There was one time I had a shot at Clinton. I thought 'Ann, that's not going to help your career.'"

  • Arianna connecting Bush's LA attack speech with a new play about Big Brother.

< Did Cheney Have Power to Declassify NIE? | Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued >
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  • Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 08:52:44 AM EST
    about missing her opportunity to "kill" Bill Clinton, but I wonder whether she was referring to killing him or doing something else with him.
    Could be she meant both. You never know. Whatever she's got that's corroded her frontal lobes might be contagious. "Bill, I'm going to [fill in the blank] you to death!"

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 08:59:26 AM EST
    PPJ, how's your week-end going? Hope you've got some good adventures planned.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:03:40 AM EST
    punisher, Last time I went fishing it was really boring. No nibbles all day. I gave up and went home. Something stinks, though. I'ts not me is it? (sniffing armpit, scratching head, frowning...) ;-)

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:18:24 AM EST
    edger, I hope you've got some good stuff planned too. Week-ends are a valuable commodity.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:21:41 AM EST
    you gotta be kiddin' me. MSNBC:
    Starr accused of sending fake clemency pleas Prosecutors: Ex-independent counsel fabricated letters on inmate's behalf


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:22:58 AM EST
    Here is a good one from Think Progress
    ONLINE POLL: 68% Find Jack Abramoff More Credible Than George Bush
    Amazing that the guy can get out of bed in the morning. A recent quote from the Maryland Republican House of Representative' s Retreat
    When asked about polls, Bush responded that if he worried about them, "I would be in the fetal position right now, which wouldn't be a pretty sight," one participant said.
    Good thing he for us that he could care less about what Americans think. Keep up the good work Georgie boy. The DNC should put you on their payroll. link via digby

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:29:13 AM EST
    Dept. of unsurprised:
    Male U.S. representatives with daughters are more likely to vote in favor of abortion rights and "more liberally on a range of women's issues" than male representatives without daughters, according to a working paper published this month in the National Bureau of Economic Research, the Washington Post reports... The report adds that the association between voting records and daughters superseded any party affiliation... (Morin, Washington Post, 2/8).


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:36:12 AM EST
    Punisher-Even if the daughter is gay?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:24:31 AM EST
    Well, Alan Keyes, who's never held elected office though he has been thrashed in a Senate election and GOP Prez primary, has disowned his gay daughter. Dick Cheney said that states should decide about gay marriage. A stance that it'd be hard to imagine him taking if his daughter were straight.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:36:23 AM EST
    punisher-odd that Starr would go to such trouble as Arnie and he work for the same masters. Does Arnie really need to justify a clemency decision with bogus letters? Perhaps they were worried that since Arnie is so unpopular and sure to lose the next election they could score a few points and make a comeback by portraying The Terminator as The Savior.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:59:38 AM EST
    Over at H&B, John Ciccilini has thoughts on the Olympics.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:04:16 AM EST
    punisher - When you reach my elevated years you will find that every day you wake up alive is pure velvet. Squeaky - Thanks for the news flash:
    Progessive blog doesn't like Bush.
    Well duhhhhhh. edger - Well, Clinton does have a suspect ticker. And yes. That is your upper lip.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:08:53 AM EST
    Quote of the day:
    "I support the free press, let's just get them out of the room." --George W. Bush, February 10, 2006


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:14:32 AM EST
    ppj-The poll was held by AOL. Hardly a progressive org.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:51:06 AM EST
    here is some fun for those who wonderWhat Happened to That Cartoon? Life as a unemployed cartoon seems really tough. via MetaFilter

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:58:23 AM EST
    It's just bizarre that AC can say the things she says in public and get away with it, where if I openly discussed shooting the sitting republican president I would be out of work and needing private security.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by cpinva on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:25:29 PM EST
    if coulter speaks, does it make a sound? you know, she just hasn't been the same, since that house fell on her sister.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:32:14 PM EST
    Squeaky, You know, I was almost impressed by Ken Starr. Your Starr/Arnie connection is very compelling. I had just read the AP story this morning and was quite confused as to what the heck might have motivated Starr to do such a thing. You have provided it for me. On another note: Looks like it's almost over for Arnie. Eating their own now. I hope the link works. Accessing the Sac Bee was like hacking into B of A. Difficult, but not impossible.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:33:17 PM EST
    Squeaky - Well, you didn't believe theirs on the funeral of CSK... edger - Yeah. I loved it. He just picked up three blue states.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:47:39 PM EST
    Che-Your link does work but free registration is required. Here a link to Bugmenot, a handy site for anyone who is too bothered to go through free registrations. BTW-I agree, Arnie's goose is cooked. He will just have to take his $800 mil and live somewhere else.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:57:06 PM EST
    Yeah, though I don't like Ann Coulter, my take on "had a shot at Bill..." was that she was attracted to him.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:13:07 PM EST
    my take on "had a shot at Bill..." was that she was attracted to him She likely couldn't have gotten anywhere anyway, with Bill or anyone else. It's probably healed shut by now...

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by john horse on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:14:19 PM EST
    According to the CIA expert responsible for coordinating intelligence on the Middle East, Paul Pillar, the Bush administration cherrypicked information in order to justify the invasion of Iraq and ignored warnings about the difficulties that would follow the invasion. Bush lied us into a war that has so far resulted in 2,267 Americans killed and 16,653 Americans wounded. You would think that when one of the top CIA Middle East experts makes these allegations that there would be a Congressional investigation. However, the Republicans also control Congress, so you know that there won't be any investigation. They care more about political power than they do about the lives of the American soldiers who keep paying the price for their folly and irresponsibility.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:14:40 PM EST
    The NYT gets the first picture of Abramoff & Bush. They picked this one out of three given to them. Wonder what the other looked like and why they did not print them as well. Guess they need to keep readers tantalized. A series perhaps? NYT via kos

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:21:53 PM EST
    For some reason the terms that bound the NYT were that the photos had to be published in B&W.Laura Rozen provides a link to Time who are reporting the news that the NYT photo waspublished, so I guess were allowed to print it in color

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 03:31:21 PM EST
    Anyone up for a good cry? Here is what Bush's lies and greed has done for two of our young and very brave men. NYT

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 04:20:20 PM EST
    Squeaky, from your link:
    Explosions have killed 1,123 American service members in Iraq and have wounded at least 10 times more [11,230], often with a devastating combination of injuries -- ruptured organs and severed spines, obliterated limbs and burst eyeballs.
    From IraqBodyCount:
    Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq: Min: 28403 Max: 32013
    Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt's advice to Iraqis who see TV images of innocent civilians killed by coalition troops:
    "Change the channel."
    Thanks george, thanks dick...
    "When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing." --Dwight David Eisenhower


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 05:17:04 PM EST
    Jane at fdl has followed digby's lead and asked her readers to find out stuff about Barbara Comstock. We have a female version of Karl Rove, perhaps nastier and more tenacious. She is a political operative who was
    appointed by Ashcroft to the Justice Department's Director of Public Affairs... [and] suspiciously left the DoJ on October 1, 2003 -- right on the heels of the Plame case being referred by the CIA for investigation
    She now is at the helm of the Scooter Libby Defence Fund. Jane describes her findings:
    I had no idea what a toxic waste dump the comments section would turn into as people went to work delving into the sewage pit that is her past.
    Her description is apt. We need to keep an eye on this one. Go read the rest.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 08:04:50 PM EST
    Wow, Barbara Comstock is an evil piece of work, isn't she? Sort of an older dried up Ann Coulter on steroids and PCP. Hmmmm... I wonder... noooo, it'd never work, would it? On second thought: Hey Barbara! Did you hear what Karl said about you?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 05:52:29 AM EST
    Good Morning, DA. Nice to see you here today. You're not around so much lately. Life is good?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:21:50 AM EST
    via stand strong at kos:
    Seven judges on a secret court have authorized all but one of over 7,500 requests to spy in the name of National Security. They meet in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record. Those spied on May never know of the intrusion.
    Would you believe that this is from FreeRepublic Nov 2000. From the comments section:
    This is beyond frightening. Thank you for this find.
    and
    This does not bode well for continued freedom.
    and this knee slapper,
    Any chance of Bush rolling some of this back? It sounds amazing on its face. Why didn't Wen Ho Lee just "disappear" into one of these Star Chambers, never to return?


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:30:14 AM EST
    punisher - Interesting and funny. Of course the Repubs have made a point that others have done it, so this isn't exactly news, beyond a more/less specific number. The question becomes, why did the court turn down the seven? What was missed? Were these international in part or totally domestic? You see, that's the problem. It is like other multiple event situations, except the judge is making the call, and if the judge is wrong, who will know? And the answer is, not even the people harmed by the attack. The problem us folks in the red states have is simple. Everyone understands, including the terrorists, about throw away cellphones, not keeping email addresses on the computer, using wiping programs, etc. But people make mistakes. People become sloppy. So what the NYT, the Demos and the other media, has done is emphasize to the terrorist how important it is to not make mistakes. As Porter Goss said. Outing this program has done incredible damage to our efforts to identify and stop threats before they come into the US. Some people need to be charged and tried.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:55:50 AM EST
    ppj: ...Outing this program has done incredible damage to our efforts to identify and stop threats before they come into the US. I know that you believe this, and you know that I think that it's implausible. What've you got on tap for this lovely day?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:57:45 AM EST
    ppj: Interesting and funny. on this, we are in agreement.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:03:30 AM EST
    You see, that's the problem. It is like other multiple event situations, except the judge is making the call, and if the judge is wrong, who will know? And the answer is, not even the people harmed by the attack. Your paranoia in this area is probably justified, Bushco would probably never voluntarily declassify any information that would make any branch of the government look bad.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:19:49 AM EST
    Dark Avernger - Ho Hum. You do know, don't you, that we are talking about a situation that happened pre Bush, so it is very possible that the 7 turned down by the FISA judge might have connected the dots on the USS Cole, 9/11, etc. You see, when you turn defense over to judges, you are turning it over to people who are appointed for life and are totally unaccountable for poor decisions. Even worse, they are not trained in either intelligence gathering or the military. Of course what we don't know is if the calls were domestic - domestic, or internatioal - domestic. If the former, as I have stated, I would demand a warrant. And, as the NSA has said, so would they. Both then and now. punisher - Lunch and then some $40-$80 Holde'em poker followed by a late dinner with a good friend. And yes, a nice bottle of wine. Life is good. You?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:56:05 AM EST
    jim, just bought some root vegetables at the local farmer's market that I'm going to roast to golden brown goodness and consume with lager. Am coordinating a 48-hour surgical strike operation on Vegas, assault team to consist of myself and 26 old friends, D-day in a few weeks. Got some prep to do for the coming busy week, and then this evening will coerce a friend to pay for dinner. Good luck with the hold-em'.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:01:40 AM EST
    Jim: Of course what we don't know is if the calls were domestic - domestic, or internatioal - domestic. If the former, as I have stated, I would demand a warrant. And, as the NSA has said, so would they. Both then and now. Interesting. So you finally acknowledge that in wiretapping domestic calls without a warrant, Bush broke the law?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:55:00 AM EST
    Jesurgislac - I have always said that what Bush said was this: Domestic to Domestic calls are not being covered by the NSA program. International to/from Domestic have. I have invited anyone to show me a case of Domestic to Domestic calls being covered without a warrant. Despite totally inaccurate claims by Demo politicans and various mmebers of the Left, no one has done so. punisher - Enjoy LV. And be careful to not arrive in a $35,000 car and leave in a $135,000 bus. ;-)

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:48:20 PM EST
    I have always said that what Bush said was this: Domestic to Domestic calls are not being covered by the NSA program. But you have no idea whether or not he is telling the truth, and given that he has deliberately avoided the legal oversight required, it seems likely that - as usual - he's lying to cover his tracks. Incidentally, again, even if the calls were placed overseas, that doesn't mean they wouldn't require a warrant: a US citizen does not cease to be a US citizen just because they placed an international call or went abroad. So, except for your very idiosyncratic definition of citizenship - you are acknowledging that Bush broke the law.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by john horse on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 04:40:12 PM EST
    Has anybody noticed how announcements by the Bush administration of terrorist plots seem to coincidently follow politically embarassing news for the Bush administration. Keith Olberman has. Here is his list of 13 of the "coincidences". Maybe we can add a #14 with the LA attack.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:14:02 PM EST
    Crooks and Liars has a video up now of British Soldiers in southern Iraq laughing it up while kicking and beating Iraqi children with batons and fists on the street... The cameraman, a UK soldier, can be heard laughing and urging his fellow soldiers on while he films the beatings.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:35:07 PM EST
    You do know, don't you, that we are talking about a situation that happened pre Bush, so it is very possible that the 7 turned down by the FISA judge might have connected the dots on the USS Cole, 9/11, etc. Yes, it's possible, but it's even more possible that the 7 turndowns happened to have no connection to any of the incidents you mentioned, and so your hypothesis, to use the words of the fictitous DA Hamilton Burger, is 'wild speculation', nothing more. Here's what George Will, that noted America-hating, terrorist-hugging leftist had to say about this subject today:
    The Administration says talking about this(the NSA monitoring)tips off the enemy. Now, the idea that our enemies think that the most technologically sophisticated nation in the world isn't using all its' advantages to eavesdrop on them is peculiar. In 1978 we passed FISA. That alerted them, if any alerting was needed, that we were indeed listening in. Passing the Patriot act alerted them what we were going to do or not do. What I do not understand in this whole bizarre week we just had George, our arguing about the NSA survellience. The administration said it was desperately important to pass the Patriot Act. Under the President's sweeping assertion, not to say monarchical assertion of executive powers, which is to say when the executive branch says we're at war the executive branch essentially shuts down the other two branches, given that, at least 24 provisions of the Patriot Act are superflous, why would they need this legislation?
    Even worse, they are not trained in either intelligence gathering or the military. Oh, really?
    The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (or FISC) is a U.S. federal court authorized under 50 U.S.C. § 1803 and established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (known as FISA for short). Its jurisdiction is to oversee requests for surveillance warrants by federal police agencies (primarily the F.B.I.) against suspected foreign intelligence agents inside the United States.
    Link A court that oversees intelligence gathering has no training in intelligence gathering? LOL! Of course what we don't know is if the calls were domestic - domestic, or internatioal - domestic. If the former, as I have stated, I would demand a warrant. And, as the NSA has said, so would they. Both then and now. PPJ, the NSA was linked to domestic survellence a month ago, and you were silent on the subject, not that there's anything wrong with that.......

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:31:33 AM EST
    Bush to Wipe Out EPA Databases, Close Libraries to Hide the Record of Industrial Polluters
    Hidden in Bush's reprehensible 2007 budget plan is a proposal to shut down the EPA's network of libraries - a network that is used not just by the EPA's own researchers but the public as well. Not only that, but Bush wants to -LITERALLY - wipe out 50,000 documents stored in the EPA's electronic catalog. Guess who uses the EPA library more frequently than perhaps any other group? EPA enforcement staff. Without the databases, there will be no way to support pollution prosecutions and monitor the history of a industry's pollution pattern. Thus, if enforcement officers try to take their case to court and make it stick, they will have one damned tough time proving a history of offenses. from Cheryl Seal Reports - Need to Know News


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:39:39 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - I wait your proof that the NSA has been involved with domestic to domestic phone call surevilance without a warrant. Your link doesn't do that. BTW - Having jurisdiction does not mean that they have training in the military or in intellifence gathering. Jesurgislac - And you have no proof he has. I think a US citizen overseas is governed by the laws of the country he is in.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:19:35 AM EST
    I wait your proof that the NSA has been involved with domestic to domestic phone call surevilance without a warrant. If you had read the link, you would've known that:
    According to the documents, the Pledge of Resistance-Baltimore, a Quaker-linked peace group, has been monitored by the NSA working with the Baltimore Intelligence Unit of the Baltimore City Police Department....The documents came as a result of litigation in the August 2003 trial of Marilyn Carlisle and Cindy Farquhar. An NSA security official provided the defendants with a redacted Action Plan and a redacted copy of a Joint Terrorism Task Force email about the activities of the Pledge of Resistance activities.
    Also: However, the NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations" without explicit written permission from the Attorney General. Now, you think that after violating USSID 18, they wouldn't be wiretapping domestic calls because? And I note that this is the second time you've made your assertion about the FISA judges without any links, even something from newswacx.com or worldnutdaily.com would be welcome at this point. Want to try for a third time?
    For it's

    one

    two

    three strikes

    and you're out

    at the old ballgame.



    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:50:09 AM EST
    ppj, how did the hold-em go yesterday?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:17:02 AM EST
    Expects U.S. to Attack Iran in Late March
    A senior Russian parliamentary official and leader of the ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Vladimir Zhirinovsky believes that a U.S. attack on Iran is inevitable, he has told Ekho Moskvy radio station. The date for the strike is already known -- it is the election day in Israel (March 28). It is also known how much that war will cost," Zhirinovsky said. He went on to add that the publication of Prophet Muhammad cartoons in the European press was a planned action by the U.S. whose aim is "to provoke a row between Europe and the Islamic world".


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:35:59 AM EST
    Jim, you keep trying to claim that outsiders have to prove Bush hasn't been wiretapping domestic calls without a warrant. Doesn't work that way. It's Bush's responsibility to show a properly constituted authority (which is the FISA court) that at no time has he broken the law. Specifically, he needs to be able to show that he has wiretapped no domestic calls without a warrant - which he has so far refused to do - and he needs to be able to legally justify wiretapping calls made from the US to an international number, or vice versa, without a warrant - which he has also so far refused to do, except on the dubious grounds that he's the President and he's allowed. I think a US citizen overseas is governed by the laws of the country he is in. Really? And the US government is entitled to deal with a US citizen in another country according to the laws of that country? So when a US citizen is in Saudi Arabia, it's the US government's job to enforce Sharia law on her? As I said, that's an interesting view of US citizenship you have.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:36:14 AM EST
    ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Vladimir Zhirinovsky believes that a U.S. attack on Iran is inevitable,... Though he prefers to refer to Iran as Southern Russia...
    ...has advocated restoring Russia to its previous imperial borders (including Finland and Alaska),


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:43:37 AM EST
    1/23/06 What is the response of Iran to the U.S. or Israelis threat?
    "We have our sensors in place in the U.S., Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, and most Arab countries. We know ahead of the time when they are coming, and since Mr. Bush has given American democracy along with the preemptive strike as the right of everybody in the world, we are going to use it and use it effectively. We are present in most of the military briefings of the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. As soon as we see that it is imminent we hit them and hit them hard... Whether the U.S. or Israel attacks us, we will consider it as Israeli attack since we know how much power they have over the U.S. political and decision-making system." If the attack happens, that will trigger the nuclear efforts of Iran. We will definitely go underground and speed up nuclear weapon production, since there will be no choice except to have them and have them soon. Right now we do not need nuclear weapons which are a liability rather than an asset, because we do not have hostile enemy which we cannot smash when we want to. The country has been able to stand on its feet for the last 2,500 years and will do so in the future. Look at the last war we had with Iraq, which by the way, was shortest war we had during the last 200 years." More...


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 09:02:23 AM EST
    Monday, February 13, 2006 The fantasy prevailing in the White House and the Pentagon (and among some pandering Democrats in Congress) is that the U.S. can cripple Iran's nascent nuclear weapons development program by aerial bombardment of its enrichment facilities and scientific centers, and that this can be done at little cost or risk to the U.S. In fact, the doctrine of legitimate response to attack gives Iran a wide range of responses to any attack, which should make Americans very leery about playing such games. If the U.S. were to bomb an Iranian nuclear power facility, Iran would have the legal right to do the same to vulnerable American nuclear facilities. And while the U.S. might do its attacking with B-52 bombers, stealth aircraft or missiles, Iran could accomplish the same thing with trained commando units. ... This is an administration of chickenhawk policymakers and leaders who have never met a war they didn't weasel their way out of, and who seem to be trying to compensate for their youthful cowardice and lack of patriotism by displays of wanton violance and aggression. If they aren't stopped, they could well be responsible for losing a few more American cities by the time Bush's second term mercifully ends.


    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 10:21:00 AM EST
    How You - Yes, You - Can End the War --by David Swanson, February 13, 2006

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 10:41:14 AM EST
    edger-some very good ideas at your link. I do not agree with the impeachment issue though. Yes I believe he has done acts that easily qualify for impeachment but until we either control the house or are guaranteed stray republican votes it is not only a wasted effort but can backfire at the voting booths in November. That is where out efforts need to go. The polls look like we can do it. As long as we win 86% ( I think that is the number) of the races we can have a majority. Than by all means let the impeachment proceedings flow.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:28:07 AM EST
    Squeaky, Here's a few songs you might like. ;-) (to the tune of Santa Claus is Coming to Town) You better not shout Or raise an outcry Or try to dissent I'm telling you why Gonzales is coming to town More here -> Rove Carols (pdf)

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:48:37 PM EST
    ppj's idea of selling weapons to Al Queda and using the profits to overthrow Hugo Chavez is starting to grow on me. I mean, that Chavez is a commonist too aint he?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:02:13 PM EST
    And yeah, you said it; you just dont realize it.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:33:54 PM EST
    Squeaky: Yes I believe he has done acts that easily qualify for impeachment but until we either control the house or are guaranteed stray republican votes it is not only a wasted effort but can backfire at the voting booths in November. I agree with you on this. I am concerned though that a democratic house and senate, and perhaps not even an democrat as president in 2009, may help the situation that has developed very much:
    "winning in November" doesn't by itself undo a constitutional order that's gelled. Divided government can still operate within a new constitutional order that's been established by one party... winning back Congress in November is still of great interest, but it may only be effective in temporarily stopping the advance of the damage that can be done under the new order. It may very well be that it simply is not capable of reversing it, since it will no longer be a matter of repealing statutory law, but rather one of reversing new constitutional understandings and precedent.