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Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed 11 Iraqi Civilians

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 05:28:34 AM EST
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Knights Ridder is reporting that Iraqi police and eyewitness reports say U.S. soldiers killed 11 Iraqi civilians during a raid, after herding them into a room. Among those allegedly killed were a 75 year old woman and a six month old infant. The raid was the result of information that an al-Qaeda member was at the house.

The villagers were killed after American troops herded them into a single room of the house, according to a police document obtained by Knight Ridder Newspapers. The soldiers also burned three vehicles, killed the villagers' animals and blew up the house, the document said.

Neighbors confirmed there was an al-Qaeda member visiting at the house that was raided. The house belonged to a school teacher and family member of the al-Qaeda member. The teacher was among those killed, while the al Qaeda member survived and was arrested.

Not suprisingly, there are differing versions of what took place.

According to police, military and eyewitness accounts, U.S. forces approached the house at around 2:30 a.m. and a firefight ensued. By all accounts, in addition to exchanging gunfire with someone inside the house, U.S. troops were supported by helicopter gunships, which fired on the house. But the accounts differ on what took place after the firefight.

According to the U.S. account, the house collapsed because of the heavy fire. When U.S. forces searched the rubble they found one man, the al-Qaida suspect, alive. He was arrested. They also found a dead man they believed to be connected to al-Qaida, two dead women and a dead child. But the report filed by the Joint Coordination Center, which was based on a report filed by local police, said U.S. forces entered the house while it was still standing.

"The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 persons, including five children, four women and two men," the report said. "Then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed their animals."

The reported autopsy results don't help the soldiers.

A local police commander, Lt. Col. Farooq Hussain, interviewed by a Knight Ridder special correspondent in Ishaqi, said autopsies at the hospital in Tikrit "revealed that all the victims had bullet shots in the head and all bodies were handcuffed." Efforts to reach hospital spokesmen Sunday were unsuccessful.

The article contains the text of the police report. Three of the eleven killed were children. A U.S. official disputes that the dead were handcuffed.

I'm skeptical that the soldiers shot and killed children at point-blank range. Maybe they fired on the house first which killed some or all of them, and then entered to collect the dead. But an investigation definitely should be conducted. I'm also wondering which unit conducted the raid -- was it Army or Special Ops?

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    • Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed 11 Iraqi Civilians | 56 comments (56 topical)
    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 03:02:10 AM EST
    I'm skeptical that the soldiers shot and killed children at point-blank range.
    I you have difficulties believing this kind of military behaviour, you should maybe read a historical account of what German troops did in Russia, especially after they began to realize Operation Barbarossa was no cakewalk. Or why not the conduct of American troops in Vietnam around 1970 when it became more and more evident which side was going to lose the war. The irony here is of course that the Germans initially were greeted as liberators in Ukraine. Nothing new under the sun...

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#2)
    by John Mann on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:06:35 AM EST
    What's all the fuss about? It was probably just a few bad apples pulling a kind of frat boy stunt, like a panty raid or something.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#3)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:32:52 AM EST
    "We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow" Walter Kurtz Ah the good old days are back. Fools.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:46:05 AM EST
    What, Me Lie?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:53:12 AM EST
    all the victims had bullet shots in the head and all bodies were handcuffed ?? Maybe they fired on the house first which killed some or all of them, and then entered to collect the dead.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:04:31 AM EST
    The question is, when were they handcuffed and shot? The US forces may have entered the house then retreated to let the gunship finish up the attack. This is all classic he said-she said stuff. Absent a US solider confirming it, I just don't believe it. Of course the Left will believe. Yes indeedy.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:23:17 AM EST
    The gunship could finish 'em in the head execution style? Nice try, Jim.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:25:27 AM EST
    "Absent a U.S. solder confirming it"??? Hmmm......... Jim, you've just given your hand away. You wouldn't trust this from anyone but a US soldier??? No Iraqi could convince you? These are police we're supposed to be entrusting the security of the country to, police who are supposed to be our partners. If you can't trust Iraqis, then your claims of the success of this "war" come into glaring question logically. By only trusting the word of the American military regarding events in another country, and you announce this bald bias loudly and clearly, you can't expect to be considered a genuinely thoughtful person in this debate. "American soldiers don't lie, only Iraqis do" is anything BUT the basis for a rational argument. Peace out, mi amigo.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:33:18 AM EST
    Of course the Left will believe. Yes indeedy.
    And of course the Right won't believe. No, indeedy not. Two can play at that idiotic game. Now if Knight Ridder's report had said U.S. soldiers came swooping in and put daffodils in the Iraqis hair and said a prayer with them, then the Right would believe that, no questions asked, and use it as proof of how wonderful the war is going. Your side can be painted just as stupid as you try to paint us, so don't even try.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:33:42 AM EST
    No Jews died in the Holocaust until himmler tells Jim so.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 09:59:35 AM EST
    Let's ask these people whether or not this "incident" took place. Turkiya Muhammed Ali, 75 years Faiza Harat Khalaf, 30 years Faiz Harat Khalaf, 28 years Um Ahmad, 23 years Sumaya Abdulrazak, 22 years Aziz Khalil Jarmoot, 22 years Hawra Harat Khalaf, 5 years Asma Yousef Maruf, 5 years Osama Yousef Maruf, 3 years Aisha Harat Khalaf, 3 years Husam Harat Khalaf, 6 months Oh, we can't. They're dead.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lora on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 10:43:53 AM EST
    Here are pictures of the dead. They are very graphic. pictures I have no comment. They speak for themselves.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#13)
    by Patrick on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 10:54:48 AM EST
    Taking any measure of satisfaction in some event such as this is what is sub-human. This is a perfect example of why making war against anyone is not something that should be taken lightly. Using cases like this for sensationalism or furthing a politcial purposes is sickening.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 11:12:30 AM EST
    charlie - The question is not if the are dead. The question is who killed them. Now you, and other members of the Left, automatically believe our soldiers did. I take the opposite position. To me the give away is the "hands tied behind ther back." Given our automatic weapons, etc., we would have not needed to have done that. I would guess they were killed by terrorists, with the bodies left where they fell. But as I said, the Left will automatically blame our soldiers. Yes indeedy.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 11:20:22 AM EST
    The question is, when were they handcuffed and shot? The US forces may have entered the house then retreated to let the gunship finish up the attack.
    Like I keep tellin' ya, Jim, ya don't always have to make it so easy. People will think you're takin' a dive like your buddies.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 11:37:59 AM EST
    Jim says he doesn't believe U.S. soldiers did it, but in PPJ's catch-22 world, he would be against any investigation. just like his defense of domestic spying, Bush didn't break the law, but no information will be given out on who Bush spied on. Ergo, in Jim's mind no evidence, no crime.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 11:47:53 AM EST
    Taking any measure of satisfaction in some event such as this is what is sub-human Nice try. You're confusing satisfaction with outrage.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 11:50:29 AM EST
    Nice try. You're confusing satisfaction with outrage.
    Actually I'm not. Your being so defensive about it might be indicative of some deeper feelings or confusion on your part.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lora on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 12:01:42 PM EST
    Jim, from the Miami Herald (on line): ''Troops were engaged by enemy fire as they approached the building,'' said Tech. Sgt. Stacy Simon, a military spokeswoman. ``Coalition forces returned fire utilizing both air and ground assets.'' Now, given that in this same article, the US admits to at least four people, including women and a child, being killed in this raid, and taking the most pro-US look at this situation, do you honestly think they would be dead if our soldiers hadn't gone in there and shot and bombed - "flattened" - the house, as described in the above-mentioned article? Now, this was a raid. Our people went in there and started it. They shot and bombed, possibly without knowing who, besides the alleged Al Quaeda operative, was inside. Or, if they knew, they didn't care. Again, using the most pro-US version of this story, our people chose to use deadly force on a building which contained women and children. I hope you at least have a problem with that.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    Patrick, Who exactly is sensationalizing this story?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 12:32:58 PM EST
    Your being so defensive about it might be indicative of some deeper feelings or confusion on your part. Thank you Dr. Freud. Maybe you should be clearer. Remember, you're writing and not speaking.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 12:55:47 PM EST
    rojopelo521... And of course the Right won't believe. No, indeedy not The difference is that we (leaning to the right) don't (or should I say won't) automatically assume these soldiers guilt...like you on the left do. We just find it ironic that you jump on our soldiers immediately, but are more than willing to give scum like Moussaoui a pass... It kind of gives us a chuckle is all... Lora sez.... Troops were engaged by enemy fire as they approached the building,... So what are they suppose to do... run away? Now, this was a raid. Our people went in there and started it. You are kinda contradicting yourself here Lora! If they were fired upon as they approached...I'd say the other guys started it. (And... BTW, just in case you've missed it...we are at war...so battles like this are commonplace. You get word that the enemy is over there....and you go over there to check it out) our people chose to use deadly force on a building which contained women and children I guess their ESP wasn't working too good that day? (Live bullets whizzing by your head has a tendency to screw that up ya know..) Actually ...our people returned fire (used deadly force as you put it) after they were fired upon. How about this Lora... how about if you are so concerned with women and children being killed in cases like this... why not write to your buddies in Al Quida and ask them to be more mindful of this when they fire at our troops? Maybe they should try and get the women (who they treat like cattle anyway ...and BTW, I don't hear any of you libs squawking about that FACT) and children out of harms way first! But, let's not blame them for any of this...it's ALL our fault. So, just so we all can get this straight... The next time any troops are fired upon... they should run away... then make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that: #1 - The people shooting at them really mean it and are actually linked with Al Quida. (Other wise there is no reason to fire back... right?) #2 - There are no woman and children anywhere near there. Before they decide to act... Right Lora? Sounds so simple doesn't it?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 01:01:10 PM EST
    BB wrote:
    So, just so we all can get this straight... The next time any troops are fired upon... they should run away... then make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that: #1 - The people shooting at them really mean it and are actually linked with Al Quida. (Other wise there is no reason to fire back... right?) #2 - There are no woman and children anywhere near there. Before they decide to act... Right Lora? Sounds so simple doesn't it?
    I've got an even better solution: Why don't we just bring all of our troops home and then we won't have to worry about who we are shooting at anymore. Pretty simple, huh?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 01:51:59 PM EST
    If I say Operation Phoenix and School of the Americas does that mean Im taking joy in these kind of events? After all, it makes Bush look bad and the left just hates Bush for no reason. Theyre all just haters who hate.Plus,theyre full of hate for America, the troops, and Bush.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 02:03:58 PM EST
    Here's an excerpt from a Vietnam vet about the last quagmire the U.S. got itself into and the cost of "doing business":
    I have learned a lot about the human capacity to adapt to evil, to accept it, to [make it routine], to call it by pretty names. To forget what is inconvenient and to lie about the rest. I am not being cynical, but realistic--two seconds' worth of examination of widespread public attitudes towards "our" government and "democracy" will show anyone who's not in total denial, that the things I am pointing to are simply business as usual. The war taught be about business and the price of doing business; the photograph of My Lai is a good illustration of what routinely is not shown to us: the cost of doing business.
    Sixties Narratives

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 02:05:46 PM EST
    Lora - Perhaps I was too naunced for you. My comments addressed the people who, evidently, were executed. BTW - From the news story you quote:
    ''Troops were engaged by enemy fire as they approached the building,'' said Tech. Sgt. Stacy Simon, a military spokeswoman. ``Coalition forces returned fire utilizing both air and ground assets.''
    The part in bold means that the enemy fired first.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 02:09:52 PM EST
    BTW - From the news story you quote: ''Troops were engaged by enemy fire as they approached the building,'' said Tech. Sgt. Stacy Simon, a military spokeswoman. ``Coalition forces returned fire utilizing both air and ground assets.'' The part in bold means that the enemy fired first.
    Why should anyone believe what the military has to say about this event after what we know about the lies that were fed to us about other events, such as Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman? I'd say let's have an independent investigation, but know that doing so would just be wasted words.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 02:30:05 PM EST
    Jim:
    This is all classic he said-she said stuff.
    Yes, it is. And until the military investigate the incident seriously, that's all it will be. Apart from the photographs of babies shot in the head, of course.
    Absent a US solider confirming it, I just don't believe it.
    It really doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what the Iraqis believe. They're the ones burying their dead and planting roadside bombs to kill American soldiers. The problem is that the military have zero credibility. Which gets people killed. Read the statement by Ben Griffen, a British SAS soldier who had seen action in Northern Ireland, Macedonia, and Afghanistan, before going to Iraq, quoted by Jesurgislac above. He refused to continue fighting alongside the Americans, and among other things had this to say:
    Their attitude fuelled the insurgency. I think the Iraqis detested them.
    That's the bottom line. Babies shot in the head -> roadside bomb -> soldiers blown to pieces. What you believe is totally irrelevant.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 04:02:46 PM EST
    "Perhaps I was too nuanced." Whats nuanced about a talking points zombie who practically humps Terri Schiavo in print (subsequently dropped like a hot potatoe), while hypocritically excusing and ennabling mass butchery? Any nuance you express originated somewhere else first. Like out of Hannity or Jeff Gannons a**.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 04:25:55 PM EST
    When do the war-crimes trials begin? Never, I suspect. They should be under way now.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 04:26:19 PM EST
    jim, you wrote"Lora - Perhaps I was too naunced for you" that is incorrect, it should have been nuanced. I think what you had was a freudian slip. What you were really thinking was "Lora-Perhaps I was too nauseating for you."

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#32)
    by Lora on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 05:16:37 PM EST
    Jim, and BB, This shooting and bombing - was - a - raid. By - our - people. I don't think this fact is in dispute. Which means, our soldiers were *raiding* the house in question. Hello! You'd think people might just fight back if someone is raiding their house! There is no inconsistency in saying that our soldiers raided a house, and returned fire. My point stands. Our soldiers raided a house (ours was the first aggressive act), got shot at, and used deadly force, completely obliterating the house, and recovering, at least, by our own account, 4 dead people, of which 3 were women and a child. And...yes, if our soldiers are going to raid a building and plan to use deadly force in response if the inhabitants attempt to defend themselves, they should find out who is inside. And if there are civilians, or there are likely to be civilians inside, they should use other tactics. This isn't any wacko left talk, this is how our soldiers should conduct themselves. Think about it. If Al Qaeda operatives obliterated a building containing innocent civilians while trying to capture a target, we would all be rightfully horrified and outraged. We would NOT say, oh well, they were shot at, so of course they would bomb the place to rubble. We would call them terrorists, which they are. And no, BB, I have NO such buddies, and you should be ashamed for suggesting such a thing.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 06:24:55 PM EST
    the real reason for the Iraqi war http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=483&row=0

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#34)
    by Lora on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 06:30:44 PM EST
    Jim, Yes, it appears that at least some of the individuals inside the building were executed. If our soldiers knew that (and didn't do it) you'd think the news report would have said, something like, "US soldiers discover mass execution of Iraqi civilians during raid," or some such. But...the report just says that the building was "flattened," and the Al Qaeda operative was captured, with no mention of discovering any execution-style victims beforehand. So, giving it the best read for our side, it would seem as though they shot and bombed away, either unaware, or in spite of, the fact that there were women and children within, whether alive or dead.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:04:52 PM EST
    I've got an even better solution: Why don't we just bring all of our troops home and then we won't have to worry about who we are shooting at anymore.
    Pretty simple, huh?
    Remember who you're target audience is. It kinda has to be.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#36)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 08:02:32 PM EST
    bigunit12, Palaste nails it on a regular basis. Great writing.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    Al - The military has zero creditability only with the Left. The rest of us believe that it cares about the truth and fights by the rules. jondee - What?
    .... who practically humps Terri Schiavo in print (subsequently dropped like a hot potatoe), (Makes comments) ...originated somewhere else first. Like out of Hannity or Jeff Gannons a**.
    Really? Do you expect any rational person to think you have a point to make? I mean besides the one......I hate PPJ? BTW - I have this mental picture of you stomping your foot and yelling as you wrote the above.... "Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. I'm gonna eat some worms" ;-) Enjoy the rant. And I didn't know you went to the same school as Dan Quayle. Lora - I doubt if the soldiers "knew it." There probably was a lot of smoke and noise, and after the building collapsed there wasn't a lot of digging around in the rubble. That's a good way to trigger a secondary explosion and get your self killed. The other point to consider is that if they had handcuffed and killed these people, why did they leave the evidence behind? Try asking yourself that question. Your bias is plain. You hate Bush, are anti-war, or at least this war, and automatically accept any thing that makes the troops and the US, look bad. charlie - Your military strategies leave a bit to be desired. Try to think about this. We announce and immediately start to withdraw 130,000 troops. The terrorists would then start a mass killing effort against the Iraqi civilian population, killing thousands upon thousands, in an effort to seize control through intimidation. The current government fights back, the army and police forces splits into fragments. Riots occur and thousands of common criminals start robbing and killing almost at will. The utilities quit functioning, food distribution is non-existent and medical service is almost nil. In the meantime we lose control of the airport, so we can only leave through Kuwait. Iran, thinking they have a free hand, launches an attack across the Iraqi border, cutting off our troops and attacks them. Iran also attacks Israel, and is joined by Syria. Egypt declares itself neutral, but thousands of "volunteers" rush to join the fight, taking their "stolen" military equipment with them Badly out numbered and seeing the US wavering between asking Iran for peace while we withdraw or using our superior technology in an all out war effort, Israel goes nuclear against Iran and Syria. Russia, seeing a chance to get what it has always needed, a warm water port in the gulf, condemns the US and Israel and promises retaliation. It attacks Israel with nukes, promising the US safety to withdraw, war if we don't accept. How many dead, charlie? Ready to roll the dice?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 10:17:09 AM EST
    Your bias is plain. You hate Bush, are anti-war, or at least this war, and automatically accept any thing that makes the troops and the US, look bad.
    And someone we know also carries around a bias plain to see. Someone who loves Bush, is pro-war, and especially this war, and automatically defends anything the troops and the US does so that they look good.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    My military strategies, eh? Who put 'em in that fix, Jim? There's already 2335 or so dead of ours and counting after that phony blitzkrieg last week. It's actually higher but if they're in the air on the way to Germany when they check out they don't count. Then there's the 25000 or so wounded and maimed for life. I see no point letting them stay there any longer than they have to getting caught in the middle of a civil war. It was a mistake from the beginning. Why compound it for the sake of some moron's pride? They're not the ones dyin'. Then there's the 100,000 or so Iraqis that've been killed in the last the last three years, but it's clear you repos don't give a damn about them. You figure it's an honor for them to be killed by us instead of Saddam. So, you've been dodgin' my question. You keep gripin' about the polls. Is it your contention that the American Public is solidly behind the War in Iraq and in Shrub's Corner? Yes of No? Spit it Out.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:49:20 AM EST
    The military has zero creditability only with the Left. The rest of us believe that it cares about the truth and fights by the rules.
    The military's list of lies so far (feel free to add to this list): Jessica Lynch Pat Tillman Haditha Abu Gharib Guantanamo Bay Bagram . . . and all the incidents that we, the public, don't know anything about yet, just for starters.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 12:18:54 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ at 10.48 AM - You seem to have a tad little overblown conceptiom about the actual impact of the American presence in Iraq. What if the American troops went back home and nobody noticed?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lora on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 12:28:46 PM EST
    Jim, Whoa. Yes, I am anti-this-war. However, I do NOT just assume that our troops are bad, and everyone else is good. And my feelings about Bush are not part of this thread. Please don't make assumptions about them. I am saying that to act with deadly force without regard for civilians who might be in the way is a serious issue, and one I would hope and expect soldiers everywhere, and ours in particular, would try like anything to avoid. From the report of our own military, it is difficult to conclude that they cared about civilians in this particular raid. That is my only point here. I am NOT saying that our soldiers shot these people on purpose, although I don't believe we have enough information to say for sure. So I am drawing as unbiased a conclusion as I can, based on our own military's report. I have not seen anything that would seriously contradict that, unless it would make our military look even worse. I have chosen not to go there. So leave my presumed bias out of it.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Using cases like this for sensationalism or furthing a politcial purposes is sickening.
    I would think murdering people is sickening, publicizing it to stop the murder is healthy. The bush regime has no compunctions about using pictures of POWs to try and make a political point.
    The other point to consider is that if they had handcuffed and killed these people, why did they leave the evidence behind?
    1) They blew up the building to cover the crime. 2) Since they have successfully murdered, tortured, and lied about it before, why think a coverup is necessary? and of course the standard strawman everyone expects from this commenter:
    The terrorists would then start a mass killing effort against the Iraqi civilian population
    1) Complete speculation assuming facts not in evidence. 2) The iraqi people ARE the insurgency, and have been since the brits founding of the country in 1923.
    The part in bold means that the enemy fired first
    No, it says that the military said it fired first. They've already lied about the number of dead, and no allegations should be 'investigated' by the party who the allegations are against. Plus, 'the enemy' is a rather glib assessemnt, considering the US are the invaders, and did so under false pretenses.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 03:18:22 PM EST
    charlie writes:
    My military strategies, eh? Who put 'em in that fix, Jim?
    charlie, it doesn't matter. They are there. Accept reality. Now re-read what I posited and answer the question. How many dead? Are you ready to roll the dice? Are you ready to chance a major conflict? Come on charlie. Try and keep up. mar writes
    You seem to have a tad little overblown conceptiom about the actual impact of the American presence in Iraq. What if the American troops went back home and nobody noticed
    ? Huh? Let me see. Regime change. New democratic government. Millions voting...Thousands killed in the process... Actual impact? Nobody notice? Help me here. Do you really have a point to make? Sailor - Sorry, first they would have removed the handcuffs, and then blown the building up. BTW - The rest is a rather trite attack on the troops. I thought you claimed to support them? Oh well. Lora - Rules of engagement are normally set that you can fire back if fired upon. Civilian deaths are always terrible. If you have studied war, you will find that in ancient times the SOP was to kill everybody. That slowly decreased over the years, with some notable exceptions of the Moslems and the Huns who also liked to kill everybody... anyway, it was probably lowest in the eighteenth, nineteenth and early twentieth century when wars were fought by armies standing up and shooting at each other at relatively short ranges. Civilian deaths were more likely to be caused by the associated disease and starvation. The flu pandemic during WWI killed millions, but is generally not associated with the war. WWII saw a huge increase in civilian deaths due to the bombing done on all sides, plus the huge swath cut across Europe and the Soviet Union. Vietnam, fought by guerillas and regulars is difficult to measure, although the genocide of Poll Pot and the millions killed by North Vietnam's re-education camps, etc. should be noted. Currently we have a generation of "smart" weapons. This means we probably kill 80% less than we would have otherwise while doing what needs to be done. I know that is meaningless to the "20%" but I think it demonstrates our desire to do the job as painlessly as possible. And yes, it is terrible. War is. War has been. War will be. In the meantime, feel free to condemn our troops while ignoring the car bombs, booby trapped dolls, IED's and, every now and then, a beheading, or more accurately, the sawing off of a living persons head. After all, we wouldn't want to be judgmental, eh? Might hurt their feelings.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 03:58:37 PM EST
    The polls are all biased,(its part of the liberal media conspiracy). And everyone that visits his compound in Idaho supports the war.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:19:20 PM EST
    "War is. War has been. War will be." Chickenhawkus Americanus speaks. Plus its cheaper than viagra.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#48)
    by Lora on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:58:07 PM EST
    Jim, I thought it was obvious that I have no respect for the atrocities committed by the terrorists. However, that doesn't mean we give a free pass to our soldiers to do whatever, because the terrorists are so atrocious. They shouldn't say, "oh well, what's a few dead babies -- hey, y'know, we're under fire out here and we can't be checking all the houses we raid, and hey, they were probably sympathizers anyway, we gotta teach this town a lesson! It ain't a picnic out here. If they shoot, we're gonna bomb 'em!" That's the kind of attitude that loses hearts and minds, treats civilians as just in the way, or perhaps really enemies, even the children, and sets our side up to kill casually, without making every effort to spare innocent lives. Because the terrorists are evil, all the more reason for us to act in a highly principled fashion. And if we can't do that -- we need to rethink why we're even there. Is the price of killing innocents worth a few more captives? Will we not continue to inflame the citizens against us and in the end drive more and more into the arms of the terrorist organizations? For whatever reasons got us into the war, these sort of actions will only make it worse for them and for us. This is just one example; how many more are out there? The only reason this got any press, I suspect, is that there are pictures, and it couldn't be ignored or covered up.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:33:35 PM EST
    Lora writes:
    I thought it was obvious that I have no respect for the atrocities committed by the terrorists.
    No, it isn't obvious at all. Did I miss a srong condemnation?? Oh yeah, one "If al-Qaida..." Lora. The terrorists have been using car bombs against civilians for months. How many times have you condemned them? Inquiring minds want to know. As for "innocents," besides the children, how do you know how many were "innocent?" Like it or not pur strtaegy must be to raid locations that we believe to contain terrorists. If we don't do that then we are giving then an open inviation to fight when they want and kill when they want. And that is a receipt for disaster. Think about it. charlie - Yup, just one of the crew, I am, I am. And I love it when I ask you a hard question and you react with BS attacks. If you can't answer, why not just say, "Sorry, but I can't keep up.... but I'm pedaling as fast as I can." Jondee - I did 10 years in Naval Aviation and attended my share of Memorial Services. So let me remind the world of your service. What was it? None? Thought so.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:43:19 PM EST
    Nice try, Jim. So, Spit it out. Does America love Shrub or not? Am I goin' too fast for ya, fella?

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#51)
    by Lora on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:24:02 PM EST
    Jim, So sorry you couldn't tell. Perhaps I didn't make it clear. I've felt it every time I have read about any of their brutal attacks on innocent people, and I suffer every time I hear that another of our soldiers has been killed by senseless violence. So, just for you, let me say it. Now you will know, without a doubt, my feelings about the terrorists, including all those who have been using anything -- car bombs included -- to make unprovoked attacks against anybody. All right? I CONDEMN THE TERRORISTS. There. This does not excuse our soldiers from acting with due caution and preserving civilian life as much as possible. If you don't know if they are innocent, there are other methods besides flattening their house. And the children - ARE - innocent.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:24:54 PM EST
    charlie - You need to start thinking. Bush doesn't care. He isn't into polls. The real issue comes in November and in '08. So far all you've done is spout off jingles about the past. You need to catch up, charlie. Lora - Thanks. Now. Given that we are there, and given that we can't leave without killing thousands, what would you do besudes condemn the terrorists? Who, BTW, don't give a damn what Lora, or PPJ, think. They'll just keep on killing until they are killed, or until they win. Lora. You can't pet snakes. All they want is to eat the mouse.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:46:49 PM EST
    Jim, I finally agree with something you said!!!!!
    Bush doesn't care.
    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:33:26 AM EST
    Bush isn't into polls, eh, Jim? Nice try. He's more into polls than anyone in history. What the hell do ya think measure effectiveness and strategy for November and 2008, sport? Comin' up on the right. Again.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#55)
    by Lora on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:01:00 PM EST
    I don't know, Jim, but killing children's not it.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:20:28 PM EST
    ppj - I suppose you earned an Iron Cross in the trenches too. You wouldnt know the true meaning of 'service" if it crawled up inside you and lodged in your small intestine.

    Re: Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed (none / 0) (#57)
    by Andreas on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:10:07 PM EST
    TL wrote: "I'm skeptical that the soldiers shot and killed children at point-blank range." TL still seems to have illusions regarding the character of the war and the character of the US military.
    US Congressman John Murtha said on Wednesday that a Pentagon investigation into the deaths of civilians in Haditha, Iraq, last November will show that US Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood." Murtha (Democrat, Pennsylvania) was referring to a probe launched into a November 19 incident in which at least 23 civilians--including seven woman and three children--were gunned down by US troops. Haditha is a predominantly Sunni town 200 kilometers northwest of Baghdad in Anbar province. ... "I understand the investigation shows that in fact there was no firefight," Murtha said, "there was no explosion that killed the civilians on a bus. There was no shrapnel. There were only bullet holes inside the house where the Marines had gone in." "One man was killed with an IED [improvised explosive device]," he added. "After that, they actually went into the houses and killed women and children."
    Witnesses, video document massacre in Haditha US Marines killed Iraqi civilians "in cold blood" By Kate Randall, 20 May 2006

    Report: Iraqi Police Say U.S. Soldiers Killed 11 Iraqi Civilians | 56 comments (56 topical)