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Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:48:49 PM EST
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Smoking Gun has the Indictment of the two Duke Lacrosse players. Reading between the lines of this statement from Duke University today, the two indicted players have been suspended.

So, two young men, accused but not convicted, have their faces and names plastered on television screens and in newspapers across the country, are required to post $400,000. secured bonds and get kicked out of school, based on allegations by an accuser who is allowed to retain her anonymity and her privacy.

This is like Alice in Wonderland. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

As to the Indictments, if you look at the motions to seal them, you will see they were submitted on April 12 and granted by the Court on April 13. The grand jury didn't return the Indictments until April 17.

Also, the DA says in the motion to seal that if the defendants are convicted, the minimum sentence in the mitigated range is 144 - 182 months in jail.

< Reporters File Motions to Quash Libby Subpoenas | Judge: Not All Sex is Reportable Abuse >

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    Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged | 148 comments (148 topical)
    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#1)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:07:37 PM EST
    ok TL, so we can expect you to identify the accuser here, right? let's be realistic, the pendulum has swung in the extreme opposite direction in this country, with respect to sex crimes. eventually, i hope, it will come to rest in the middle, where it should be. for the moment, there isn't much these guys can do, other than carry signs around with the accusor's name on it. not sure what good that will do. should they be found innocent, if it ever actually goes to trial, which i'm putting money on never happening, maybe they can sue all parties concerned. probably not. and if they did, the accuser has nothing anyway.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:18:56 PM EST
    From last thread: AZBall:
    Keep in mind it has been proven that wealth has little to do with happiness.
    And it has even less to do with this alleged rape. Chew2:
    Over half of the lacrosse team attended private schools.
    So f**king what!!! Absolutely, utterly irrelevant. You show your true colors. You aren't interested truth or even the facts of the alleged rape. It is just a vehicle for you to feel less insecure about yourself. You just want to see someone who had a different life than you, perhaps one that you wish you had had or have, fall, irrespective of truth. It is pure envy, pure jealousy, outright shameful and downright pathetic. It is appaulling that anyone thinks this case is about wealth. It is sickening that anyone thinks because someone had a privileged upbringing they are presummed guilty. Look in the mirror and admit to yourselves that you not only hope for a fall, but you will have true joy from seeing anyone who has obviously had a different upbringing and lived a different life than you, go through this experience, whether deserved or not. You are pratically wetting your self in anticipation of a fall from grace. You want it so bad, becasue the it will obviously make you feel better about your own pathetic self. THe richer or smarter or better looking they are, the greater the climax. But guess what, no matter what happens in this case, your joy is fleeting as you will still wake up everyday uphappy deep deep down because you are feeling sorry for yourself because everyone else has it better than you. booo hoooo sniff sniff. This is psychology 101 material. Evidently, Horatio Alger is a criminal, not a symbol of success and light of inspiration.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#3)
    by BigTex on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:20:01 PM EST
    Grow up man. Posts get edited for length. She reserves that right up front.
    TalkLeft reserves the right to edit all e-mail and posted comments for content, clarity, and length.
    Source TL - Its become gut-check time. Have you made a decision on whether or not to release the alleged victim's name and photograph? The court is apparently unwilling to offer any protection to the accused here. The court did not issue a gag order. The accused are now fair game to be smeared in the media with at least tacit approval (not in the legal sense) from the court that set bail. This battle shouldn't be played out in the media, with the current irrational sex crazed state the country is in, a media war is inevitable. That being the case, it's better to level the playing field. Hopefully wide circulation of her name and photo will prompt the court to issue a gag order and stop the media circus in its tracks.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:29:49 PM EST
    Have you made a decision on whether or not to release the alleged victim's name and photograph? I don't believe that TL would do that if it was available.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:45:58 PM EST
    TalkLeft has consistently advocated that the rights of the accused be respected, and that's an attitude that I share in large part. But there is nothing particularly illegitimate about this prosecution, and no reason that these people deserve their turn in the Nancy Grace barrel o' justice any less than her other hapless victims. And it seems like a lot of the people (not TL) who are outraged about the treatment of the lacrosse players restrict their outrage to this case, not to the general practice of trial by media. And there's simply no justification for the selective outrage, because it isn't significantly different from the others (apart from having defendants that people with right-wing sensibilities are more likely to sympathize with). Put simply: what are the odds that a person outraged about the treatment of the lacrosse players was equally outraged about the treatment of Michael Jackson (who was acquitted, and whose accuser was at least as unreliable as the one in the Duke lacrosse case)?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#6)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:53:18 PM EST
    TALKLEFT DISCLAIMER REITERATED I don't immediately assume there is an aspect of race involved in these issues, but until I get a satisfactory answer as to TL's rather manipulative handling of the available evidence, I'm going to keep pounding this... relentlessly. Because obviously I and others have uncovered something that without further elaboration leads us to conclude that there is something seriously amiss. If you display aspects of prejudice and bias, much better to have people call you on it, so you're forced to face it and deal with it, as opposed to letting it go unaddressed and unexamined.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#7)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:57:35 PM EST
    kth Thanks for helping me to make my point about the racial aspect of this issue. Which I initially discounted to some degree but am definitely rethinking now. PS stop watching Nancy Grace, that garbage has no redeeming social value and will wind up rotting your brain.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:04:48 AM EST
    Aaron see here for when a post of mine has been edited for length. You have made clear your unhappiness of editing your post due to length. Is there any reason you must continue to complain?
    Perhaps you should get the facts before you shoot your mouth off.
    Pot, meet kettle.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#9)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:05:50 AM EST
    Kalidoggie Interestingly, you blast me for making generalizations, then blast me by making generalizations. Do we need to change our meds? True, wealth has nothing to do with their guilt OR innocence. However privilege is privilege. Question: if a heinous crime is alleged from a small group of guys - do we have the right to ask for any upstanding atheletic representative of his university to cooperate with authorities? Do we have the right to ask this of anyone from the community whether they live in privilege or poverty? Do you think that if these guys were poor we'd call them hooligans? Yep. I'm just calling them rich hooligans. We all know they exist - they have the perfect role models. By the way - for all those complaining about how the accused is being protected: her name is all over the internet - just not on sites who care about being shut down. Apparently she's been forced out of her house. That said, it's to be expected and we can't feel any more sorry for her. If there is anyone still drinking the koolaid that nothing torrid happened that night - change your meds. For those of us who reasonably understand that something torrid did happen: remember that the gal has gone on record with her story - one that will undergo scrutiny. There have been 41 boys who were involved who have taken advantage of the system which presumes innocence and protects them (especially those who can afford the advice of expensive counsel). Finally, by the looks of the mansions that those boys come from, I look forward to the gal extracting huge payoffs.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#10)
    by MarchDancer on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:34:10 AM EST
    Am I the only one wondering why on earth these two young men (three very soon says the PA) are being charged with these horrendous crimes if none of their DNA matched?! Of course, we used to try rape suspects without the benefit of DNA testing, but I'm left to wonder: did the PA lie to us? As I court reporter I once sat in on an identification process of a rape suspect. He was so adamant about his innocence, that the victim agreed to appear at his First Appearance behind a blanket with a hole in it to take a look at him. She pulled off the blanket, ran to the man and began crying and hugging him. It's not him, it's not him, oh I'm so sorry you had to be put through this! Do you believe that a PA today would allow his witness/victim to agree to such a drama at the request of the Public Defender? Women were horribly abused first by their rapist/abuser, then again in the courtroom. All of their pasts were to be testified to. So women refused to press charges. Now we've forgotten that there are women who will bring these charges for any number of reasons against innocent men. What if those young men were on scholarships and came from my rural city? $400,000 bail! That's either $40,000 their parents will never see again or...I need some help here. I don't remember all the ways bail can be made. Both sides will pay for this evening of "fun" for the rest of their lives, as will the two children of the single mother dancer. I'm filled with sorrow for all of them and their families.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#11)
    by Aaron on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:36:05 AM EST
    Big Tex I'm far less concerned with the deletions then I am with the underlying motivation for those deletions. The passive aggressive overtones are difficult to overlook in light of the seeming unconscious bias being displayed . Again I and others seem to have perhaps hit a nerve that should be looked at more closely by the owner of this site and those who comment and visit here. I just want to make it totally clear that there seems to be more going on than some are willing to admit or recognize. Lawyers and people concerned with the law should always be interested in seeking the deeper truths which underlie these issues. I'm not interested in continuing to harp on this subject, but if I'm going to singled out for special treatment and then be ignored, that leads me to conclude that I'm most probably on the right track. The truth will out in the end. As long as someone is willing to keep looking for it.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:08:41 AM EST
    Marchdancer, You wrote:
    Am I the only one wondering why on earth these two young men (three very soon says the PA) are being charged with these horrendous crimes if none of their DNA matched?
    No. But the answer has not been hidden from view either. These two young men were positively identified by the accuser. And the prosecutor believes that the fact that dna is not left behind is not an indication that no rspe occurred. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is the way it's getting put. Whether that view is supported by modern forensic experts probably is a question better answered at trial than in private meetings with defense attorneys as a matter of social propriety. The medical technicians who examined the victim found bruising consistent with a rape having occurred. Is that assessment falsified by the absence of dna? We'll know soon enough, but my guess is that those technicians, at present, are still considered witnesses in good standing by the prosecution. For a reason.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:03:28 AM EST
    "Sentence first, verdict afterwards." Uh....not quite. The sentence for the crimes charged is 12-15 years. If the media had not had a field day re: the wealth, race, priviledge etc. issues the names would not be all over the place - there would have been a more quiet investigation. These are serious charges, and while the accused should be considered innocent, they must also defend themselves. As for the school, they have a responsibility to all their students and a reputation to maintain. And they have the right to suspend students in trouble with the law. Heck, other schools are suspending students for saying they are gay. The college near my neighborhood can punish students who park in the neighborhood. The team was already in trouble and it is pretty obvious that despite pressure, the coach had little control. The whole team was drinking underage. And hiring (and being rude to) strippers does not show your respect for women. So I have a hard time thinking of any of these guys as totally innocent. Rape, we'll see. Being obnoxious frat boys who were due for a shock, oh yeah.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:07:45 AM EST
    Poor players, I am so distraught at the abuse they have suffered at the hand of the justice system I am going to leave work and go home and cry. Not really, TL is giving them enough love for the entire world. At best these players are a walk on the wild side and their bad behavior and lifestyles have finally caught up with them. If they are innocent maybe this will be a wakeup call and they will morph into decent human beings. If they are guilty I hope they are convicted, receive max sentences, repent and be welcomed back into society, or fail to repent and rot in hell.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:32:56 AM EST
    Hear that barking sound? This case is now officially a dog. Unless Nifon has some bombshell evidence not yet leaked, this one is over. It is interesting that in this hi-tech world we now live in, that people's whereabouts can be so accurately proven, and in this matter, technology will prove innocence. Also, I was interested to hear the accuser's cousin's comments this morning on Good Morning America. When asked if money played a role in this, she stated that first the criminal proceeding had to conclude before money could be considered. And then she said that the accused wouldn't do this for money since she made a good living as an entertainer. Of course, the money is already flowing. Free tuition, lawyers seeking book deals, interview fees, etc.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:50:25 AM EST
    TL - Despite my deep reservations about what really happened that night, I would prefer you not publish her name. I would definitely view this as a situation where "2 wrongs don't make a right". I am cognizant that these young mens' lives are at stake here, but they have already been indicted and I believe that the judicial process will should play itself out. The amount of negative publicity all of these young men have endured is disgusting and in no way consistent with responsible journalism. I love this site and respect you immensely and irrespective of your decision I will continue to support and visit this site regularly. I for one am appalled at the coverage and the depictions of these men as spoiled elitists. It is funny, I have seen a lot of trashing of "elitists" or "wealthy white kids" and how their entitlement led to this. This form of judgment is as ridiculous as someone asking "where are the values of the accuser and her parents that she would grow up to be an escort/stripper?" The morality sword cuts both ways and being that the upper class represents a small fraction of society it is much easier to blame/hate them. I don't want to know who the woman is any more than I want to know who the men are. This case should never have made national news and these men are forever stained, guilty or innocent.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#17)
    by cowboyx on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:59:25 AM EST
    I'm not interested in continuing to harp on this subject, but if I'm going to singled out for special treatment and then be ignored, that leads me to conclude that I'm most probably on the right track.
    Don't ya think that if you were being censored, all your rants in this thread would be deleted? It makes no sense to try to silence someone and then allow them to rant about it. Use some logic here. Perhaps you should have used those pixels to repost your deleted post into smaller chunks. I'm surprised you have to be told things like that. Regarding pre-sentencing. Yes, punishments are being handed out already during before the day in court. Even with a bondsman, $400,000 bail is a hell of a lot. $60,000 is 15% of this sum...typical bond fee IIRC. But they're Duke students, coming up with 60 grand in a pinch is a cakewalk for their families, I'm sure...'cause wealthy people have bales of $100 bills laying around the estate. Suspension from school, surely that is deserved too, after all, even if they're innocent, they're not since they have the lack of respect for the law to drink underage, and the lack of respect for women to hire them as strippers. But, 90% of all rapes go unreported. How is a statistic formed based on the lack of data to support it? Sex, drinking...they must be punished for their sins, I guess. Thank whatever gods may be that there are people like the TL crew that at least some people understand what the law is supposed to be, that can view things impartially.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#18)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:09:57 AM EST
    TL you wrote on a previous thread:
    Libby, the accurate term for the complaining witness in a rape case, which you call "victim" is "prosectutrix." I think "accuser" is an accurate term, since she is not a victim until a jury or court determines she has been raped.
    Does the court/jury decide if she was raped or if the accused was the one who raped her?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#19)
    by Rich on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:11:34 AM EST
    One of the indicted (Finnerty) has a prior from a gay bashing incident (see last week's Washington Blade). Perhaps the other guy also has something that makes him easy to indict. My own guess is that this is one of those cases where no one is an angel. TL is an advocate and is naturally going to look for holes/strategy in the prosecution case. Which is different from being Nancy Grace and wanting everyone hung.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#20)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:13:50 AM EST
    Tl, You're sounding like that yucky Nancy Grace now. Calling for vengeance and appealing to the resentments and prejudices of all the conservative white men. Kalidoggie: I noticed you left out the bit about the two accused living in multimillion dollar homes, and the fact that I stated that I wasn't sure whether wealth had anything to do with them being agressive sobs. And what's with the Horation Alger bs? Thse kids didn't earn anything, they were born with those privileges.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:14:42 AM EST
    If they are innocent
    If they are innocent, it's all ok because they learned a lesson Jade? You seriously underestimate the harm caused by a false rape allegation.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:15:44 AM EST
    Not saying these charges are false, just potentially false.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#23)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:30:45 AM EST
    Don't know if this should be in this thread or the one below. Did Nifong know that Seligman allegedly wasn't at the party but indicted him anyway? If so, he should have more evidence. "We were actually hoping that she would pick names that we know were not at the party, and it would appear she did exactly that," said Kerry Sutton, the lawyer for a team captain.." "A court filing by the district attorney's office on March 23 indicated that Mr. Seligmann was one of five players who investigators had been told were not at the party." NYT

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:50:01 AM EST
    Aaron, get over it. I've had my posts deleted here (for stepping on one of TL's understandable rules) but all in all, TL has one of the more sensible and saner discussion forums around. I've been banned from several sites, right now a well known "moderate" constitutional law professor blogger has taken to deleting my posts at random, as she is so pissed about a joke I made about her and about the questions I ask her on her blog. If having a comment deleted is upsetting to you, then post the entire comment on your own blog, and here, and include a link back to you blog. If TL edits your post, no harm, interested readers can find the entire post back on your site. Have you said anything of substance on this yet?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#25)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:53:29 AM EST
    Jlv, Wonderful post. TL, Indeed the media circus is shameful. However, as you yourself said, the accuser's name is on the internet. Not hard to find, yes? And while her name and picture aren't out on the front page yet, intimate details of her lifestyle that would be considered damaging to anyone's reputation have been well covered for weeks. You know it's just a short time before her name and face will be out front, and those details connected. Privacy and anonymity? No. Verdict first? Then you should be objecting to Duke's policy toward students accused of a felony. Also, the defense lawyers have done everything in their power to discredit the accuser's story in the press. How's that for verdict first? Forcible rape is a violent crime. What do you think is the appropriate amount of bail? Reminder: 92% of rape accusations are authentic, according to the FBI. While there is variation in the estimated percentages of unreported rapes, the numbers are high and there is back-up for them. Of the number of reported rapes, many fewer actually go to trial. Of those, even fewer result in convictions. I don't have time to look up numbers and sources now, but the trend is real. It's very difficult to be absolutely sure about an ID of a stranger. Whoever reported 100% accuracy, Nifong maybe, was irresponsible in my mind, or else there was another reason for stating it that way. NIfong says there is evidence to support that a rape and assault occurred. Apparently the grand jury thinks so, too. What do we know that proves that wrong? Nothing, yet. So, really, what's the beef?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:04:23 AM EST
    Apparently the grand jury thinks so, too.
    Grand Jury proceedings are a joke. The saying, "Any prosecutor who wanted to could indict a ham sandwich", is unfortunately, not far off the mark.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:07:03 AM EST
    As to the Indictments, if you look at the motions to seal them, you will see they were submitted on April 12 and granted by the Court on April 13. The grand jury didn't return the Indictments until April 17. On the last page, the motion to seal, I certainly see the date of April 12th, but I am not sure where you see April 13th. I see a stamp that indicates they were filed on what looks to me to be April 18th. ?? Can you be more explicit about what you are saying here? I gather you are saying that the process is presumably Grand Jury, submission to court, granting by court; but how unusual or out of line is this? Who actually is supposed to write the indictment and enumerate the charges, the DA or the Grand Jury? What does "granting" actually mean, and why would a court grant the indictments before the Grand Jury "returned" them?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:11:00 AM EST
    Because I swing a low-hanging fruit: Aaron, delusions of grandeur much? On one hand it could be said that the defense is attempting to try this case in the media. Usually we frown upon this kind of behavior. But in this case, who can blame him? Given that the information he is providing the media appears legit (as opposed to creating cockamamie alibis and such) is only compounded by the fact the DA has been belligerent when it comes to reviewing evidence (like the photographs), I think he has no choice.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:14:27 AM EST
    In defense of the Duke policy of suspending students accused of felonies or where a dangerous situation may occur.... In the late 70s, I attended a small college in California. The college re-admitted a student that had withdrawn a year or so earlier for psychological reasons. They knew of his problems when they readmitted him. I do not know of any steps they took to monitor his behavior. I do know that one morning he stabbed and almost killed another student. And I know that it took her a very long time to recover physically, and she eventually withdrew from the school. So Duke's policy is understandable, and almost certainly a product of their attorneys. But I really can't imagine the school doing anything else. I think their suspension is more understandable than the canceling of the season.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#30)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:36:08 AM EST
    JPT, The motion to seal the indictment is made by the DA to the Judge and the order sealing the indictment is granted by the Judge. The order sealing the indictment isn't shown in the smoking gun set of documents far as I could tell so I'm not sure where the April 13 date comes from. Presumably the order itself would have to be sealed otherwise it would defeat the purpose of secrecy. The actual indictment is issued by the grand jury after presention of "evidence" by the DA.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#31)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:39:33 AM EST
    To put the fairness of the Duke suspensions in perspective, I wonder how many here would want Barry Bonds suspended from baseball should he be indicted for perjury.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:51:33 AM EST
    chew: Don't be so quick to equate. If Bonds did in fact perjure himself, it dealt with performance enhancing drugs - which have a direct relation to his on-the-field life. Even though an indictment obviously doesn't equate to a conviction, the case can be made much easier that a suspension would be appropriate. In the Duke case, criminal charges are being sought against (at most) three players. Thus far, only 2 have been indicted. Even so, weeks before the indictments were handed down, the school effectively "suspended" all 47 lacrosse players - even those who were not implicated in the allegations. The Duke administration acted prematurely in an effort to appease certain specific and vocal groups.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:55:52 AM EST
    Does the court/jury decide if she was raped or if the accused was the one who raped her? As I understand it (and IANAL), the jury, as the finder of fact, gets to decide both if a rape occurred and if the accused were the rapists.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#34)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:58:55 AM EST
    chew2, Please note the collective public uproar calling for Bonds to disappear from baseball and recant his records. All without a perjury indictment. Also please note that the cases are a bit different, one has to deal with cheating in a sport and the other is a crime of violence. It's right to suspend someone who is suspected of being violent in order to protect the rest of the students.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:03:18 AM EST
    I can imagine how devastating a false allegation of rape can be. However, it sounds like some of these boys need a wake up call. Gay bashing, openly using racial slurs, date rape, underage drinking (both were under 21), and general bad behavior. If they are innocent, or just lucky to weasel out of it, maybe they will reform their bad behavior and do something positive with their life. Without this may be they would have have continued to accelerate their bad behavior and gotten into worse trouble.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:05:06 AM EST
    Jade: So you're saying, in a sense "they had this coming" or "they asked for it"?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:10:03 AM EST
    Kalidoggie, let me respond to your reaction about some people's prejudices against the wealthy. I would definitely say I have a prejudice - I remember a while back on some blog or another it was asked what group do you have a knee jerk prejudice against? My first thought was frat guys, followed by rich people. But this is really not about jealousy. I come from a pretty darn well to do family, as does my husband (like my father-in-law owns a plane kind of wealthy). We both walked away from that lifestyle because we were disgusted by much of what we saw in it. What bothers me about many (obviously not all) rich people I have known isn't that they lived a different life than me, it is the sense of entitlement they carry around with them, especially the children of the wealthy. It is as if they think having more money makes them better people, deserving of the good things in life, and everyone else are just the little people to be used and exploited as they see fit. And the kids of rich people often exhibit the apalling laziness only seen in someone who knows their future is assured, and that the rules everyone else plays by don't apply to them. This is obviously a prejudice, it is not accurate for many, many people, and it is wrong to categorize an entire group, just like any other prejudice. Just wanted to explain that it is not jealousy that is driving anti-rich prejudices. Oh, and in my time living in Durham, and my husband's 6 years at Duke, I met more people who fit my stereotype than at any other time in my life.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:22:56 AM EST
    The team was warned, the coach was warned, yet they continued to have drunken parties, one of which led to these events. While I appreciate TL's protection of the accused, and I understand that the women came to the party (to be paid for dancing scantily clad) of their own accord ... the Duke athletes and their coach bear a large responsibility for creating the situation that has led to these charges. Coach was warned last year on players' conduct By Rocky Rosen, The Herald-Sun April 18, 2006 4:42 pm DURHAM -- A high-level review of the men's lacrosse team's disciplinary records last year prompted Duke's athletics director to warn the coach his team was "under the microscope" and that players needed to improve their conduct, the director said Monday. At the time, the team's reputation nationally was for winning games. Today, the team stands disgraced, with two players indicted on still-undisclosed charges stemming from an alleged gang rape at a team party, the season terminated and the coach forced out of his job. Although the team's reputation for drinking and debauchery has drawn attention since the rape allegation last month, an explicit warning to Coach Mike Pressler about the team's behavior has not been previously revealed. The warning followed a review by Tallman Trask III, Duke's executive vice president, of the team's campus disciplinary records. Trask, who oversees the athletics department, called in Athletics Director Joe Alleva to discuss his findings.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:33:55 AM EST
    Another prime example of how a concerted media campaign can engineer reality for a significant segment of the populace. As with Natalee, O.J, Sam Shepherd, Leopold and Loeb cases like this are so sensational and "sexy" only because the beautiful people - the protagonists of One Life to Live and Survivor are implicated. And we all know how potentially earth shattering that could be. Meanwhile, fifty young Americans and God knows how many Iraqis have died and been maimed in Iraq in the last couple of weeks, our barely elected and barely holding onto reality president is threatening to start another war, and the outcome of elections that could strongly influence the destiny of the nation hangs in the balance. You'd never know it. But, thats just one slobs opinion.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#40)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:41:19 AM EST
    The judge's order sealing the indictment was dated April 13th. Nothing out of the ordinary with that.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:43:21 AM EST
    Chase (such a nice ivy league kinda name, I like it), Seems like they were on a one way road with nothing good at the dead end. With a few exceptions: if you play with matches you will eventually get burned or start a fire. If you overeat and under exercise you will get fat. Have repeat unprotected sex you get pregnant, get a disease, or both. Engage in repeat bad and/or illegal behavior you catch a bullet or a case. At this point it is what it is. I hope young college students (especially athlethes) take heed and let this be an example of what bad behavior can lead to.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:55:57 AM EST
    Can you imagine if,(God forbid) Tom murdered Katie, or, sexier yet, Katie killed Tom after finding out he'd been carrying on a torrid afair with L. Ron Hubbards former personal pilates instructer/astrologer? Aside from the ice caps melting, severe disturbances in the earths magnetic field, and every formally compelling issue of the day evaporating like a diaphanous mirage?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:07:36 AM EST
    Jade: Thank you for complementing my name! I wish I had worked just a little harder in high school and actually attended an Ivy, but that's neither here nor there.
    With a few exceptions: if you play with matches you will eventually get burned or start a fire.
    Wait for it...
    Have repeat unprotected sex you get pregnant, get a disease, or both.
    Wait for it...
    Engage in repeat bad and/or illegal behavior you catch a bullet or a case.
    How about being a stripper? Being an escort? A prostitute? Using your ("blame-the-victim") logic, couldn't you some how say "people that illegally sell sex, either on a stage or in a bedroom, sometimes have the demons of the industry catch up with them"? Where you hope college kids learn their lessons, I hope strippers and prostitutes learn their lessons and get out of the business! Nothing good comes from selling sex!

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#45)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:25:49 AM EST
    [people who sell sex] sometimes have the demons of the industry catch up with them"?
    You mean like the increased chances of getting raped? Hopefully, Jesse Jackson comes through with his scholarship offer and the alleged victim will be able to quit her two month job of stripping and escorting, and will be able to devote her full time to her college studies and caring for her kids.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#46)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:30:18 AM EST
    "A court filing by the district attorney's office on March 23 indicated that Mr. Seligmann was one of five players who investigators had been told were not at the party." And now MSNBC shows some of the pictures of the party clearly showing Seligmann there. Just take note of the number of people involved, the level of impairment, lawyers get involved - boys worried about what their parents will think. I'm getting afraid the DA will never be able to sort through all this. That being said, he has a duty to the accuser/victim to proceed.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:42:34 AM EST
    So if they are found innocent, they can always sue the city for malicious prosecution.
    Do juries have a new option when deliberating in criminal cases? I thought juries could find "guilty" or "not guilty"? Is there now an "innocent" option? I didn't think so.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#48)
    by peacrevol on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:01:24 AM EST
    Why do we have to report anyone's name? Why cant it just be a nameless, raceless, faceless story about jane doe accusing tom dick and harry of rape? I just dont see why it makes any difference at all. The class issues and racial issues are either created or magnified by the press to try to earn a few extra $$s.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:07:37 AM EST
    Seligmann's defense looks pretty good - after reviewing his taxi driver's written statement, his ATM receipt, and his cell phone records, it looks like he and a friend (presumably another LAX player) left the party at around 12:19AM or earlier. Supposedly Nifong's requested DNA tests will be coming back today, so maybe there will be some new news today.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    I hear you Jade...it's fairly obvious these aren't choir boys. But being a dirtbag isn't a felony.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:24:41 AM EST
    kdog, funny, they both went to private catholic schools, they very well may have been choir boys. At some point, anyway.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:41:33 AM EST
    Posted by tiger April 19, 2006 10:42 AM So if they are found innocent, they can always sue the city for malicious prosecution. Do juries have a new option when deliberating in criminal cases? I thought juries could find "guilty" or "not guilty"? Is there now an "innocent" option? I didn't think so.
    Boy you sure showed him Tiger. Grrrrrr...

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:44:46 AM EST
    You don't reveal the victim's name because too many rape victims are threatened once charges are filed. And this happens whether the media is involved or not. When supporters of the accused are willing to give up that behavior, publishing names of the accusers will become legitimate. Until then, releasing the names only creates a situation where young women are forced to find protection to participate in the prosecution of an alleged crime. No other type of accuser must endure what too many victims of rape wind up enduring. You can dress this little pig up however you want - Kobe's accuser endured death threats until she relented and dropped charges. How many of us would pursue charges thrust into the circus she met? Who in their right mind would accuse a celebrity, particularly a sports star, of rape now knowing what's going to happen to you? As someone who didn't follow the Duke case, other than the occasional news break segments I saw, the overwhelming impression delivered by the media to the casual viewer is that something very wrong was allowed to happen to these boys. I just heard about the email last night, but the media made sure to make clear that the prosecutor is running for re-election and there was no DNA found on the dancer. What's clear is that something happened - I do not know what it was. Keep the victim's name out of the media until this case is resolved. The only reason to include the name is to begin and endorse the thuggish assaults the accuser will inevitably endure. If the boys are found not guilty, her life will be plenty miserable for a long, long time. As for these boys, other than the horror of being falsely accused, their lives won't suffer in the least. Whether they're found guilty or not, they'll be heroes in an awful lot of corners. Fortunately, their families are well connected, and that will provide everything they need to restore their lives to the affluence and comfort they have always been destined for. Without conviction, ultimately their futures will not be altered.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:00:15 AM EST
    You mean like the increased chances of getting raped?
    Well yes.
    Hopefully, Jesse Jackson comes through with his scholarship offer and the alleged victim will be able to quit her two month job of stripping and escorting, and will be able to devote her full time to her college studies and caring for her kids.
    Hopefully the good Reverend Jackson will come through will a scholarship for more strippers and prostitutes who would like to go to college.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:23:23 AM EST
    I love how people are jumping on the "underage drinking" as evidence of lack of character on the part of the accused. Apparently it is expected that no one will drink until their 21st birthday. Irrespective of the law, who actually believes that drinking is evidence of serious problems? The percentage of highschool students who drink is far north of 50%, never mind college students. It isn't like Natty Lite is consumed solely by Seniors, or that all those liquor stores are there to serve some fraction of 1/4 of the population. Let's be real. A substantial majority of all students, and all people out of highschool but under 21, drink alcohol with at least some frequency. A very substantial portion of that same population use marijuana. It's called the American College Experience. Spring Break, touring Europe, etc. To start hyperventilating over the evilness of consuming alcohol is not only hypocritical, incoherent, and evidence of a lack of perspective, but identifies you as a Dean Wormer type who is completely incapable of engaging in adult society. On to productive discussion... Given the apparent timeline from MSNBC, one accused overlapped at the party for about 15 minutes with the victim. That's not sufficient time for the accuser's narrative to be true. First iceberg hit for Nifong. As to the lack of DNA: if they only did an OB/GYN exam, then it isn't conclusive. If they took other material (such as from under the fingernails), that would be more dispositive, as a rape victim is almost assuredly going to scratch her attacker somehow or collect hair, and therebye have some DNA to collect. So a lack of DNA is likely to create reasonable doubt, while a lack of collection beyond an OB/GYN rape kit is evidence of incomeptence and rush to judgement, and thus reasonable doubt. Second iceberg for Nifong. Things aren't good for the prosecutor. I'm generally supportive of prosecutions, especially the MJ case (past behaviour made the story credible, and the complete whackjobness of the accuser's family went hand in hand with allowing your kid to be anywhere near MJ, so kind of a wash in terms of credibility). This case just looked too much like Tawana Bradley, especially the media jumping in on privilege and Slate's calumnies against lacrosse and all lacrosse players. Given the so very close proximity to the primary, every fairminded person has to take a skeptical view of this circus. Nevermind what you believe about the victim or the accused, a high profile case 6 weeks before a primary and an indictment 2 weeks before the primary, are not ingredients for a thorough, cautious, careful, and rational evaluation of evidence. Somebody needs to hang quickly, and if you can exploit underlying feelings in the electorate, so much the better. This would be the case in any town-gown situation unless there were exceptional ties between the school and the community. Ignore race and class and the motivations and pressure on the prosecutor are the same. I do love the fact that they got $400k bail. Seriously, that's big money for anybody. Though I imagine that both families just put up the house and thus didn't pay a bondsman (upper middle class and up don't pay for bail bonds, we pay bail with either cash or assets).

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    Chase- I have suggested a fund raising plan for the victim on several occasions here on this site. I wonder of those who are absolutely certain she was assaulted (many on this site) how many are willing to commit to her financially so that she can get therapy for the alleged attack and to help her get out of stripping altogether. I have not seen or heard one progressive caring defender of this woman take up the issue of setting up a fund for her (on this site). Is it that it is merely a talking point for debate and they do not care about the woman personally, or is there a moral stigma with her employment that prevents any of them from stepping up here? I don't think the NAACP should bear the responsibility on their own as the passion this has stirred in defense of this woman surely can translate into a fund to assist her in recovering from this tragedy. Or is this issue merely a talking point to further an agenda and bring attention to how poorly upper middle class white men behave?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:43:19 AM EST
    freaktown, does this mean you are going to contribute $200 to her wellness fund?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:09:40 PM EST
    AZ most of my comment were to Chew2 who is seems more extreme on the wealth issue. J.B.
    This is obviously a prejudice, it is not accurate for many, many people, and it is wrong to categorize an entire group, just like any other prejudice. Just wanted to explain that it is not jealousy that is driving anti-rich prejudices
    . I respect that you at least admit your prejudice. However, "entitlement" or wealthy has nothing to do with this alleged rape. To say so is like saying that because she was poor it was OK to rape her or she deserved. Both are absolutely wrong. Chew2 thinks these boys should be found guilty because their parents or families at some point in time were succesful at what they did and how they grew-up. A logical extntion of this attiutde is to ban all inheritence. This is pathetic jealousy and envy. Evidently, to Chew2, an alleged rape is the precursory to wealth re-distribution.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    Jlv: If a "fund" is so collected and the allegations turn out to be false, why not donate the money to the Duke Lacrosse Booster Club, or a similar scholarship fund for the boys who (should this come to fruition) have had their names and faces raked through the mud?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    I think that character evidence should work both ways in this case. I think the prior gay bashing should hold weight- a violent crime with a motive involving some sense of superiority and treating a victim worse than an animal. I also think that her history should hold weight- we already know that she is capable of making very poor drastic decisions (the police chase thing) and perhaps she has lied about sexual assault in the past, who knows? This is all extremely relevant. How else is a jury supposed to decide on the likelihood that he/she had a motive to rape/lie? The rape shield law personally bothers me- for one thing, only someone who can afford a big shot lawyer even has a chance to get past it. I would be interested in taking a poll on who thinks Kobe commited a crime. I think the majority feel that he didn't. And yes, "something (bad) happened" that night. I lost some respect for Kobe, but I sure am glad that he will be lighting it up in the playoffs as opposed to rotting in prison somewhere. My point is, Kobe would be rotting in prison somewhere if he didn't have the big money to hire attorneys who could expose the alleged victim's prior sexual exploits and establish a pattern of behavior and a motive that would indicate that the sex was consensual. I think these guys should be afforded the same rights.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:31:59 PM EST
    Chase, that is exactly where I was headed. I think some of the guys may have behaved liked buttheads but until the trial is done, I will work under the assumption of innocence. I have just seen a lot of blowharding here about the victim and zero action. If there is a real concern for this woman and her recovery it would only seem natural to me that those demonstrating such confidence relative to the veracity of her complaints, would also be establishing a fund to help her.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:37:20 PM EST
    Chew2 thinks these boys should be found guilty because their parents or families at some point in time were succesful at what they did and how they grew-up.
    Kali, This is a mischaracterization of what Chew2 stated. The comment was on the economic status of the Lacrosse team. I don't know Chew2's beliefs on the guilt of the accused, but if chew believes the accusers story that she was raped and assaulted by three members of the team, then it would be reasonable to infer that the economic status may have given the players a sense of entitlement leading to a belief that their actions would go unpunished. Chew2's entire post you are refering to is below:
    Apropos of whether the Duke lacrosse team are economically and socially privileged, and not commenting to what extent this is relevant to whether they might me arrogant sobs."Mr. Finnerty and Mr. Seligmann grew up in million-dollar homes in affluent communities and attended all-boys Roman Catholic prep schools." NYT article. You would think they would have gotten a rigorous moral education there. Over half of the lacrosse team attended private schools.blockquote>

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:37:26 PM EST
    Chase, I agree with you being a stripper is also going down a dead end road to trouble. I know of people who did it to get through college, get great jobs, and lose it because clients remember them as strippers and will not take them seriously and want side perks. I always counsel people who consider it by telling them it is a past you can't erase, it will keep coming back to haunt you. Hopefully, she has seen her last day as a stripper and being a Wal-Mart greeter will seem like a better deal.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:42:32 PM EST
    Hopefully, she has seen her last day as a stripper and being a Wal-Mart greeter will seem like a better deal.
    Is that all a college education will get a person these days--Wal-Mart greeter?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:47:20 PM EST
    Here's an interesting take on the future of the case from a Sports Illustrated legal expert:
    SI.com: Will this case go to trial?
    Munson: Yes, probably in February or March 2007. There won't be a settlement. When you're talking about an alibi, you don't have much leeway to negotiate out of case -- 95 percent of criminal cases are negotiated, but this isn't one of those cases. These guys come from wealthy families and have the money to fight it.
    Also Munson puts forth the idea that the 3rd player/accused that Nifong keeps referring to is in negotiations with Nifong to get immunity or leniency for his testamony against the other two players.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:52:09 PM EST
    District Attorney Mike Nifong said Tuesday he also hoped to link a third man to the alleged attack soon, but he said that person had not been "identified with certainty."


    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I hear you JL. You planning on hanging around TL for another year until the trial starts?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#68)
    by burnspbesq on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:09:53 PM EST
    Dear azbballfan, Your username makes your prejudices plain as day. Please back away from the keg of schadenfreude, and go back to listening to Jim Rome, which seems to be more your speed than the serious discussion of serious issues that folks are trying to have here. Thanks for stopping by, and as the Cameron Crazies like to chant at the end of games, "Drive home safely."

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#69)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    Thanks Peaches for trying to explain. Kaliedoggie seems bent on dishonestly and purposefully mischaracterizing my statement so he'll have someone to argue with. Best to ignore such dishonest arguments. BTW I think that a sense of entitlement that may come from wealth is only one small component of any possible team attitudes that might, and I emphasize "might", have lead to an assault or sexual assault. The fact that many were drunk (some passed out in the photos), loud and aggressive (based on reports of their prior campus drinking behavior and arrest records), tribal in their goup behavior and loyalites, espressed racist (according to the second dancer, and Bissey), and degrading attitudes towards woman and strippers (the famous email) all were possible enablers of an assault or sexual assault on a black erotic dancer if one in fact occurred that night.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:20:09 PM EST
    Where are todays DNA results? I think the defense lawyers are going to drop one or two bombshells this week, as soon as they get that DNA back. I watched the interviews last night, and they all had smirks on their faces, if I was the DA, I would back away from this thing very fast.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    SUO - I think so, how about you? Chew2 - Interesting theory. What if someone said that the false allegation comes from hatred of the white lacrosse players based on a racist society and anger with being forced into becoming a stripper because these are the very men who will not give her a good paying job when they reach management. Why can't an argument be made that her anger towards men and the wealthy has driven her to seek a pay day that is slightly larger than $250 per session and having to fellate verbally abusive men to make ends meet? Why can't an argument be made that her financial struggles and her theft of a taxi cab and subsequent fleeing and eluding police officers caused her to seek financial gain with a false allegation? Why can't someone ask her father, "where were the family values when raising her that made her choose to become a stripper? As long as the men are going to be stereotyped and presumed guilty, they have the right to question her character and motives. And recently, at least 3 women have falsely accused college athletes of sexual assault that was proven to be completely fabricated as the athletes were smart enough to videotape the encounter and provide the tape to the police. Not a darned soul on this site has any idea who is telling the truth here and the sense of "entitlement" cuts BOTH ways.....

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#72)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:47:14 PM EST
    Jlv, Maybe I'm missing something here, but I have not seen "certainty" expressed on these boards, with the possible exception of one or two of our most extreme posters. Although folks may have an opinion about the case, there is room for doubt, and people have been pretty careful about how they present their arguments. General, sometimes heated, discussions about rapes and false accusations have occurred here, but IMO they haven't indicated a belief that there was definitely a rape or that the accuser is definitely lying in this case. I for one don't know who is telling the truth. I have an opinion about it, but I am far from certain. That's how I'm interpreting most of the other posts here as well.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#73)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:54:10 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, You can make all the fanciful arguments you want. I'll confine myself to the specific facts in this case. I personally have nothing against strippers or escorts. I thnk sex work should be decriminalized. I'm not a big fan of family values, nor am I attempting to raise other people's children. But since you are, why don't you take the parents of Ryan McFadyn and Colin Finnerty to task as well for their hateful behavior. I gather you are one of those politically conservative white males I have been commenting about whose resentment of undeserving black folks and woman bubble so close to the surface in their comments. BTW I have seen very few comments, maybe none, that presume either the team as a whole, or the two accused are in fact guilty of rape. We all know that there are two sides to this.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#74)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:29:36 PM EST
    I gather you are one of those politically conservative white males I have been commenting about whose resentment of undeserving black folks and woman bubble so close to the surface in their comments.
    JL? Conservative? I gotta read these threads more often. That's a good one! In my experience, he's fairly competent at pointing out inconsistancies and other faults in an argument, but I wouldn't label him as a conservative. Opinionated, yes! ;-) Wrong? Only, when he points out my faults or inconsistancies. Everyone needs a nice clean label to make them fit into the pre-existing pigeon-holes of someone elses mind.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    Chew2 wrote:
    why don't you take the parents of Ryan McFadyn and Colin Finnerty to task as well for their hateful behavior. [...] BTW I have seen very few comments, maybe none, that presume either the team as a whole, or the two accused are in fact guilty of rape. We all know that there are two sides to this
    You obviously don't count yourself who clearly just stated a presumption of guilty. Ignorance is bliss. Here's how that statement works in court...Objection. Presumes facts not in evidence, improper opinion and prejudicial. Move to strike. Sustained. Limit yourself to the facts, please.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:44:43 PM EST
    I correct myself. I mis-read Chew2 post and realized it was the email boy and a reference tot he DC fight. Appologies. See...it is not so tough to admit a mistake.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 04:28:36 PM EST
    Not a darned soul on this site has any idea who is telling the truth here
    The players claim that none of them had sex with the accuser. I'm pretty sure that's the truth, because if it's a lie, it's a stupid and risky lie. If the rape exam had found one drop of semen, or one pubic hair, with a player's DNA, the lie would be exposed and the players would be nailed. If the rape did happen, it would be much safer for the players to claim that the accuser agreed to sex. Then it would be her word against theirs, nothing provable either way, with the deck stacked in all the ways made possible by wealth and high-priced lawyers.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 04:42:08 PM EST
    Jl, I don't think so. At some point the "I'm right, you're wrong." of TL has got to grow old. No?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:08:42 PM EST
    Rex Little wrote:
    The players claim that none of them had sex with the accuser. I'm pretty sure that's the truth, because if it's a lie, it's a stupid and risky lie.
    I would think that the FIRST line of defense would be for everyone to try hiding in the crowd. Anybody who went to the trouble of admitting that they actually had sex with one of the dancers would be unnecessarily drawing attention to themselves, no? The people who have been accused, buy the way, are not the same people who claimed that they did not have sex with the dancers. These two haven't said a word. Almost everything we know about this case is hearsay. We know what the dancer's story is through a search warrant that paraphrases her. We know what these boys say through their lawyers. There's still plenty of room for surprises.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:32:50 PM EST
    chew2 bro...you've got jlvngstn all wrong. I hold his opinions in high regard, he takes each issue on its merits ignoring rigid ideologies. well said jlv.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#81)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:02:48 PM EST
    burnspbesq Yea, so I'm a basketball fan. So what? I've pointed out in previous posts that part of the problem Duke's lax team faces was that this hit the press after DSPN had their basketball team on every night for six months. Unfortunately at the end of the season, they proved yet again to be overrated (a favorite chant of those crazies). Your reference to Cameron Crazies actually points out another reason why there may be some malicious glee out there. Classless students who don't understand the game that well. Does anyone remember when Maryland's Herman Veal was cleared of sexual assault charges only to have panties and condoms thrown on the court? Their favorite chant of "A**hole?, A**hole?" It's too bad, because Coach K runs a good program and recruits and teaches upstanding citizens. I respect the way he runs the program. Certainly you are one of those lovers of Duke basketball. Too bad you didn't make it too far in the tournament this year, losing to a Big Baby. Anyway, this is not supposed to be a sports posting site - keep those posts on the sports forums.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:38:13 PM EST
    To answer some of the earlier commenters on this thread, I don't plan to publish the name of the accuser at this time. If it turns out she has falsely accused these lacrosse players, or some other development convinces me that it's relevant to the discussion, then I will. But I do resent that the defendants names are plastered everywhere while her's is not. Her name is available on some sites.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#85)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:02:38 PM EST
    I think both the accuser and the second dancer are going to make very good witnesses.
    If the accuser was under the influence of some substance at the time, especially if it was the date rape drug, her identification of any assailant will be suspect. Eyewitness identification is hard enough as it is without any mental or memory impairment. As someone commented on another blog, all those 6 ft white preppy boys may look alike to a black person. So she may have been assaulted or sexually assaulted and we'll never have good evidence of who did it unless the DA can can crack the wall of silence by those who were present.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:53:45 PM EST
    msnbc [reprint deleted, please just link and make your point. You repeatedly post long excerpts of transcripts.]

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:13:38 AM EST
    Chew2,
    So she may have been assaulted or sexually assaulted and we'll never have good evidence of who did it unless the DA can can crack the wall of silence by those who were present.
    I recognize that a team that never gives up is hard to beat, but I can't really imagine that ALL the lacrosse players not charged plan on taking the fifth or going the contempt route come trial. Normally one would expect in ANY group that size to find at least one person cognizant of the simple duties of citizenship. I may be underestimating the level of hatred the players have for the dancer and her rights before the law, however. It is not uncommon for teams, particularly teams of young men, to behave badly together. Right now I think of the Duke case as the metaphorical equivalent of the My Lai massacre before Hugh Thompson entered the scene and trained his rifle on Calley and his men.. Thompson died this year, a pariah to many who served in Vietnam, but a hero to students of ethics the world over. The rights that Thompson defended at My Lai, and that Calley denied, aren't the same rights that the Duke boys are currently (and arrogantly, it should be added) denying to the dancer by hiding behind their wall of silence ... but are they less sacred? Whether she is making up her story or not, this poor black woman has a right to the whole truth and nothing but. That's not even close to what she's getting. That's the one thing we can all agree on.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#82)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:23:26 AM EST
    I think both the accuser and the second dancer are going to make very good witnesses. See Rita Cosby transcript April 18, 2006 [Please do not reprint transcripts here. This space is for comments.]

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 01:36:27 AM EST
    From Nick O'Hara's mom:
    "I know my son was brought up with some ethics," she said. "He'd have stepped up to the plate and said, "This is not right' if it had happened. He also takes exception to the fact that it's being said that kids stayed silent. They didn't stay silent, they came out and said that nothing happened."
    Comment: Saying "nothing happened" is not the same as "remaining silent." That point is well taken. O.J. for example, didn't remain silent during his trial. He claimed he was 100% not guilty, as I recall. Opinions are wonderful, even if they aren't the sort of thing jurors, police, or society concern themselves with when they determine the legitimacy of a complaint. They're more interested in observations. That's what the lacrosse players are keeping to themselves. So technically, I agree with Mrs. O'Hara. The "wall of silence" doesn't quite capture the ethic that the Duke students are exhibiting. Perhaps it should be renamed a "wall of shill."

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#88)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 04:24:06 AM EST
    Why did the players that were interviewed tell the police Seligmann was not at the party?
    According to a filing made by the district attorney's office, the residents of the house where the party took place told police that Seligmann was one of six players who did not attend the party.
    If true, it is odd that the accuser photo IDs a player that the party hosts claimed was not at the party and photos show he was at the party. It sure is a good thing the players cooperated with the police. Their denial that the Seligmann was at the party is going to turn out to be a good piece of evidence - consciousness of guilt.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:54:38 AM EST
    "The players claim that none of them had sex with the accuser. I'm pretty sure that's the truth, because if it's a lie, it's a stupid and risky lie. If the rape exam had found one drop of semen, or one pubic hair, with a player's DNA, the lie would be exposed and the players would be nailed. If the rape did happen, it would be much safer for the players to claim that the accuser agreed to sex. Then it would be her word against theirs, nothing provable either way, with the deck stacked in all the ways made possible by wealth and high-priced lawyers." Wow! I didn't think of that. That is right, there is no way under these circumstances that anyone that raped her would say "I didn't have sex with her" They would at least say that they got a lap dance or something the try and explain their dna being in her pubic area, don't you think? That's pretty strong! Good point lil rex

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#90)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:14:14 AM EST
    nbc17.com
    "Anybody would be so proud to have them as their sons," Ann Jandal said, choking back tears. "The (district attorney) never looked into where these boys would be that night before they would pull them into jail, charge them and plaster their pictures all over the country."
    I wonder if Ann Jandal is proud of Collin's assault arrest? I read the guy he and his high school lacrosse buddies called "gay" and beat on might sue them in civil court. That might make for some interesting discovery. Nifong's gonna want to check that out. How did Ann Jandal expect the DA to check out their alibis before arresting them if the players weren't talking to the police? Oh, wait, the hosts of the party did tell the police where Seligmann wasn't that night - at their party. OOPS! Turns out that was a lie. The DA asked anyone with information to come forward. If Finnerty and Seligmann weren't at the party when they think the assault could have occurred, they could have given that information to the DA. They chose not to. No one talks - everyone walks? Well, we got two perp walks out of that strategy.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:23:03 AM EST
    Thanks Patrick, SUO and Kdog. I appreciate the kind words. I don't think I have ever been called a conservative, yet I have been called flaco blanco for quite some time. Chew, it would appear to me you have only read one thread on this topic and it is important to note that there are several and on those threads there are several posters calling for the rich whiteys heads. I have consistently not taken sides on this issue only have demonstrated that the sword cuts both ways. There have been constant digs at the young men specific to their upbringing and financial status. When a poor african american athlete is accused of rape, many people will resort to family values and uprbinging and entitlement which is of course all a crock of crap. There are rich and poor and middle class buttheads, no particular class of people has any more or any less. I would argue that the wealthy have better legal representation which leads to less convictions, but to make an argument of entitlement either way is irresponsible and prejudicial. You cut and paste a "preppy white guys" comment from another "blog" in an effort to purport that it is not your words, simply anothers explanation of rich white kids. Why not tell us what you feel as opposed to how someone else does? I could go back and cut and paste all the attacks at these young men, but I simply do not have the time today. Also, I have no issues with strippers or the morality of the job, I am an atheist and do not find anything objectionable about a womans body or her right to take her clothes off for money, nor do I have any qualms with a mans' right to do so. What I do have an issue with is when one side of a legal equation is plastered all over the media prior to being found guilty and stained forever irrespective of innocence or guilt. SUO - I love your opinions, I really don't care who is right or wrong, I mean I have been calling Patrick a dunderhead for 2 years now and I find when he is not commenting on an issue, I miss his words. There have been a lot of folks coming and going here and the mainstays make it all worthwhile. Besides, if the demos take the WH in 2008, won't it be fun to see the parallel arguments on this site to see if the stances are principled or political?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#92)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:29:18 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    Wow! I didn't think of that. That is right, there is no way under these circumstances that anyone that raped her would say "I didn't have sex with her" They would at least say that they got a lap dance or something the try and explain their dna being in her pubic area, don't you think? That's pretty strong! Good point lil rex.
    Yeah, like when Clinton said,"I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." I mean he never would have said that if he thought his "genetic material" could possible show up on that woman's clothing. But, it did. People a whole lot smarter than the players in this case, with a whole lot more to lose, take risks that could alter their lives and when caught they lie about it.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:30:48 AM EST
    Lora, if there is no "certainty" why release the mens names and photos etc? go back through the 5 threads or so here and get back to me.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#94)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:30:52 AM EST
    PB, The time to crack the wall of silence is before bringing charges, not at trial. The DA may have charged the wrong assailant, and it's highly risky to just subpoena witnesses to testify at trial without knowing what they will say. I believe it would have been possible to subpoena some team members to testify before the grant jury, and their testimony could have been compelled by grant of limited immunity, but I could be wrong about that. Re: the semantic quibbles over "the wall of silence": The players have refused to speak to law enforcement. Some lawyers purporting to represent some or all of them, have claimed "no rape occurred" not that "nothing occurred". That's sort of like AG Gonzales or Bush claiming tha the "U.S. doesn't torture" and you'll have to take our word on it.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#95)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:54:28 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, If you want to hyperventilate about unfair and resentful attacks on the Lacrosse team members because of their wealth and privilege then you should get a room with Kakidoggie. That's not my fight. Re: the word "preppy": it referred to the clean cut upper (middle) class white suburban look which apparently characterizes the Duke lacrosse team. They don't affect the skater or punk look. If you see some unfair class or gender prejudice there against the rich and privileged then crusade on for truth and justice. That's not my fight either. As it happens those observations were made by some redneck columnist in the Duke student newspaper.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:03:23 AM EST
    Yeah, like when Clinton said,"I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." And were it not for the utterly bizarre decision of Monica to save a semen stained dress in the back of her closet, he would have gotten away with it. These kids are charged with brutally gang raping a woman for thirty minutes. She fought back so hard her finger nails broke off. They raped her in the ass. And you are going to honestly tell me that these guys are gonig to believe that no DNA would have come back from that? It didn't add up from day one, and now we have the photos, phone calls, and taxi driver which bascially exonerate the one player. I do think a crime was committed that night. But it seems pretty clear that the DA and police are searching the wrong campus.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:06:21 AM EST
    Yeah, like when Clinton said,"I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." I mean he never would have said that if he thought his "genetic material" could possible show up on that woman's clothing. But, it did. People a whole lot smarter than the players in this case, with a whole lot more to lose, take risks that could alter their lives and when caught they lie about it.
    good point but... It's not the same thing, Clinton had no reason to think that they would do a rape test, it was a fluke that there was evidence. This accused rape wasn't like a guy jumping out from a bush and attacking a woman, it's more like a date rape in that it's easier to explain away dna than to deny it. With them saying that there was no sex that night, even one pubic hair found on her would have sunk them.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:07:12 AM EST
    whoops spanked

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#99)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:07:51 AM EST
    Some time back, a commenter mentioned a possible reason for the defense attorneys withholding possible exculpatory evidence until the DA went public with the names of the suspects. It was that, if he found the first three weren't there, he'd give the alleged vic the team picture again and tell her to pick three others. I'm sure there are ways to "suggest" she look harder without telling her we need three new guys since the first three won't fly. Anybody in this house of defense lawyers want to assert such at thing could never, ever happen in a prosecutor's office? I once, poking around for plot ideas, asked an attorney if you could withhold slam-dunk exculpatory evidence (I was in Spain that month and I have fourteen different ways to prove it) until the actual trial is going on. Apparently not. My concern was that, if the prosecutor found in advance he couldn't convict you of some heinous crime, he'd simply let you out of jail at three in the morning and say nothing. Forever after, you'd be the guy who certainly did it but .....something. Apparently the defense attorneys have managed to split the difference effectively.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#100)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:11:00 AM EST
    chew2 posted:
    Some lawyers purporting to represent some or all of them, have claimed "no rape occurred" not that "nothing occurred".
    Players' parents are quoting their children saying, " Nothing happened." abcnews.go.com
    Brian Loftus, of Syosset, N.Y., the father of two players on the team, told ABC's "Good Morning America" on Tuesday that he approached one of his sons and asked him about the alleged attack. "I asked him 10 times. I said, 'Did anything happen?' Both my sons ... all they ever told me was 'Dad, nothing happened. Nobody did anything,"' Loftus said.
    AP wire
    "I'm not an emotional person, but every day I cry. I have tears in my eyes. I feel like the world's been pulled underneath my feet," Loftus said. "My kids, when you hear them sobbing on the phone that their lives are destroyed and you hear other people saying the same thing you wonder what went wrong. And we know nothing went wrong. I cannot stress that any more. Nothing happened that night.
    wtnh.com
    "He says 'Ma, nothing happened and players are being accused of rape'. I said, 'What? Rape?' and he said 'We had to all go, the whole lacrosse team except for one person and give DNA'. I asked why he had to give DNA and he said 'That is what we were told to do'," says Foula Theodoridis.
    Matt Zash's attorney, Kerry Sutton, seems to be speaking on the players' behalf here: sports.espn.go.com
    Another defense attorney, Kerry Sutton, said that numerous e-mails written in the hours after the woman said she was attacked support the players' claims that nothing happened that night.
    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#101)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:15:52 AM EST
    Posted by GUNSHY April 20, 2006 08:07 AM
    whoops spanked
    Hi GUNSHY, It has been my experience on this board that not many commenters are willing to admit they are not 100% right 100% of the time. In my humble opinion, you are to be commended.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:33:00 AM EST
    Hi GUNSHY, It has been my experience on this board that not many commenters are willing to admit they are not 100% right 100% of the time. In my humble opinion, you are to be commended.
    Thanks for commendation, but I don't think I deserve it, I was just that bogan444 had beat me to the point. I know what you mean though, many hard headed people here huh :)

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#103)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:33:09 AM EST
    bogan444 posted:
    And you are going to honestly tell me that these guys are going to believe that no DNA would have come back from that?
    All I'm saying is smarter people have done stupider things. It has been reported that the three players that were questioned told the police that Seligmann wasn't even at the party. Seems to me that lie is easier to prove than the "no sex" story. Could have been a harmless oversight. I wonder if only one of them said he wasn't there or if all three of them denied he was there.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#104)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:41:23 AM EST
    Hi GUNSHY, I mean this part:
    good point but...
    'round these parts, if you disagree with someone they don't even give that much. TalkLeft finds some pretty suspect reasons to delete my posts. If she likes what you have to say she'll correct your link, if not she'll delete your whole post and site the "bad link." She just deleted on of my posts for quoting too much of the linked article. I try to only quote the parts pertainent to my comments, but then other commenters snipe. "Why did you leave this sentence out?" She wasn't content to delete the entire quote, she deleted my commentary as well. Aaron was right about her selective editing.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:46:44 AM EST
    'round these parts, if you disagree with someone they don't even give that much. TalkLeft finds some pretty suspect reasons to delete my posts. If she likes what you have to say she'll correct your link, if not she'll delete your whole post and site the "bad link." She just deleted on of my posts for quoting too much of the linked article. I try to only quote the parts pertainent to my comments, but then other commenters snipe. "Why did you leave this sentence out?" She wasn't content to delete the entire quote, she deleted my commentary as well. Aaron was right about her selective editing.
    Bulls**t I have had posts edited for length and I was agreeing with her on the topic. Quit your whining.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#106)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:13:00 AM EST
    Quit your whining.
    Just stating facts. I've done word counts on posts that I think she will edit and compare them to some of Tex's posts that are still standing. The "dissenting" post is indeed edited, and Tex's is left standing. I've seen her correct links and I've see her delete a whole post for "bad links." It's not hard to guess which posts will get which remedy. I've seen her edit a post of a "dissenter" and a post of Tex's within in minutes of each other. Tex's was left twice as long as the "dissenters". That example is still on the board. I've been studying her editing. I have screen shots that illustrate my points. I'm not making this stuff up. It's her board she can do what she wants, but don't think she isn't controlling what her readers read here. Hi Tex, I'm not picking on you. I have no problem with your posts, it's just that they tend to be longer than the posts of other commenters she edits "for length."

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:34:15 AM EST
    Thanks for the welcome, inmy. I have some questions about this case I was hoping someone would know, 1. Did the line up when the two guys were identified include known innocents or did she just pick two guys from the team? 2. Has any of the team confirmed or denied the racial slurs that were reported?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#108)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:34:25 AM EST
    Just stating facts.
    Even so, you should still quit your whining. Your humble opinion is coming accross loud and clear as has Aarons. It is her site and she runs it very well. If she has a bias in her editing, you can just forgive her for being human and go on and make your point with further posts that meet her length requirement. Its a judgement call. She hasn't given an exact word count and no one wants her too.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:49:07 AM EST
    TL Deleting the Rita Cosby transcript was an odd decision...it was a good read.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#110)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:54:55 AM EST
    Gunshy:
    1. Did the line up when the two guys were identified include known innocents or did she just pick two guys from the team?
    From what I've read, the full details haven't been released (read: leaked) thus far. I did read something that indicated the accuser identified the two by scratches on their body. I'll try and track down the article when I have a moment.. if someone else knows where it is, I would be much obliged.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:00:00 AM EST
    Can anybody tell me that if the accuser is found lying, will there be any effect on the strength of the rape kit as the main supporting evidence in future rape trials, since in this case, apparently the rape kit could not determine the timing and whether the sex is consensual or not? Also, could anyone explain what could the rape kit show? Can some OB/GYN tell by the degree of the swollenness of the tissue how long when the rape may have occurred? After all, the woman got the rape kit collected about 2 hours after the alleged rape, and I believe in many rape cases, victims do not go to the hospital immediately after the rape takes place? If this has been discussed in some other thread before, please kindly point me to the discussion. I've been interested in the significance of the rape kit in a rape trial, and I don't know if people interested in feminist politics would worry about the fact that the rape kit, like the DNA test in this case, may also be deemed as inconclusive evidence for rape cases? Thank you in advance for any illuminating comments.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#112)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:00:50 AM EST
    Peaches posted:
    Its a judgement call. She hasn't given an exact word count and no one wants her too.
    Peaches, You are missing my point. Word count, bad links, and "language" are TalkLeft's stated reasons for deleting posts, but if take a look at what stays and what goes you will see she is using her "rules" to control what facts and opinions she allows her readers to consider. I have screen shots of deleted and edited posts to compare to posts that are still standing that prove my point. Just stating facts.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#113)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:16:40 AM EST
    she is using her "rules" to control what facts and opinions she allows her readers to consider.
    I get your point. I even understand your frustration. But, it is her site and she does get to make and enforcde the rules. Both sides of the issue on this thread have been well represented and we know where TL has a reasonable bias for the accused, because she is a defense lawyer. So, I get that you have facts and can back it up with screen shots. However, TL still is a fabulous blog that allows many to make their points and have some quality discussions along the way. You just need to get over it--because it is not that big of deal and the readers are not missing out on a whole lot due to her biased editing. Again, we your humble opinion has come accross loud and clear despite your stated facts So, quit whining

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#114)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:23:10 AM EST
    Peaches posted:
    You just need to get over it--because it is not that big of deal and the readers are not missing out on a whole lot due to her biased editing.
    Due to her edits and deletions, you don't know what you are missing. Who's whining now, Peaches?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:31:47 AM EST
    No offense to either of you but for everyone else's benefit, why don't you drop it (or move it to an open thread)?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#116)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:33:20 AM EST
    ABC interviewed the taxi driver. It's looking more and more like he, at least, is innocent.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#117)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:34:11 AM EST
    ..."he" being Seligmann...

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#118)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:35:30 AM EST
    Who's whining now, Peaches?
    Gee, I don't know. Me? There is not a whole lot more light that can be thrown on the subject by either side. All, I am saying is you should let it go. If you can't - go somewhere else. Because you are starting to get annoying and on this thread I happen to fall on your side of the issue - that is, my sympathies lie with the accuser and not the accused. But, you, as was Jesurg and Aaron, are too full of yourself. You think too much of the information at your disposal. Well, information is cheap. We can get it anywhere. Make valid points and people will listen. If they get edited, try it again. Just don't whine about the host.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#119)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:36:22 AM EST
    Chase posted:
    No offense to either of you but for everyone else's benefit, why don't you drop it (or move it to an open thread)?
    Peaches admitted Talkleft's editing is biased. I'm done.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#120)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:39:16 AM EST
    Chew, I find no need to hyperventilate over the issue, and have stated on this blog that there are more pressing issues in our society that should be covered. You used the word preppy with a limited caveat while simultaneously purporting no bias. Your classification of the author of the comment as a redneck is disturbing. Although Patrick and I make strange bedfellows, he certainly wraps it up quite nicely
    Everyone needs a nice clean label to make them fit into the pre-existing pigeon-holes of someone elses mind.
    Thanks P, could not have said it better myself.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#121)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:40:32 AM EST
    jlv, I read 'em all at least once. I'm not gonna go do it again. The release of photos has to do with what's legal or not legal, not whether they are innocent or guilty. I don't know how I stand on the photo issue. I would personally prefer that no photos of anyone be released. Responsible citizens will treat the accused as innocent unless proven guilty. Regardless of my opinion, that's what I will do. I hope and expect the responsible commenters here will do the same.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#122)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:43:15 AM EST
    Peaches, My sympathies lie with the truth. I don't know who is telling the truth here.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:44:34 AM EST
    Lora, fair enough.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#124)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:57:24 AM EST
    The accuser says the rape occured when she went back into the house at which the neighbor states he saw her attempt to re-enter the house at 12:30am CNN has released a new timeline of one of the suspects and a taxi driver that received access to the taxicab company's computer and verified records of: 12:14 Call to Taxi Service 12:19 Cab picked up suspect and friend 12:24 Wachovia ATM receipt 12:29 Drove them to Cook-Out restaurant 12:41 Taxi driver drove suspect to dorm, where the Dorm security system showed suspect checked back into dorm at 12:41am

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#125)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    This is intriguing. Wonder who the second pickup from the house was? Cabbie says passenger talked about stripper snip...
    In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person "said in a loud voice, 'She just a stripper."' Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn't "have any information about what was going on in the house." "When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. ... It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, ... I have no idea."
    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#126)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:36:06 AM EST
    tiger, Nice link. There is an additional link there to an "Abrams Report" with some interviews with some attorneys and such with the release of this new timeline and information. The D.A. better have more evidence than the 'rape kit' results, or his career is over. The more details that come out, the more I question the validity of the charge.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#127)
    by azbballfan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:36:23 AM EST
    Despite feeding the public's undying urge to see evidence before a trial, the public release of evidence is a travesty of the justice system. That being said, realistically, it's going to happen. The taxi driver said he liked the $25 tip. I wonder how big of a tip he's gotten afterward? Before we go quoting taxi drivers, let's wait until the evidence proves he was called. I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy or anything, but let the evidence be presented. (I know, the defense attorneys claim that they have these records already, but they also said in statements made to the police that Seligman wasn't at the party at all that night. They later leak pictures proving he is.) So far, we have a lot of talk about evidence, with little direct evidence to evaluate. I'd suggest reading the testimony of the accuser/victim and Kobe in that case. In the midst of so much speculation that both sides were boldly lying, I was suprised to see how much those testimonies corroborated a story which at the end of the day amounted to whether or not she said no. They both agreed that the kissing/foreplay was consensual - she tells him she's got a tatoo on her lower back - he asks to see it - she turns around and raises her skirt - and that's where their stories start to differ. Ao at the end of the day, it was a date rape case.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#128)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:41:44 AM EST
    Before we go quoting taxi drivers, let's wait until the evidence proves he was called. I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy or anything, but let the evidence be presented.
    Does this count as evidence?
    Almostafa's Sprint cell phone bill, which was reviewed by ABC News, shows an incoming call from Seligmann's phone number at 12:14 a.m.


    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#129)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:48:18 AM EST
    The accuser also said she was raped for 30minutes and that the attackers grabbed her from behind and broke her fingernails while she was fighting them off. Yes, the defendants who were wearing short sleeve shirts and still didnt leave any DNA under those fingernails. She also claimed to be raped for 30min after re-entering, but there was 'AT BEST' 7min from when she was at the back door trying to get in, and then leaving in her car. The DA has also publicly decreed a crime occured and placed guilt to the Duke Lacrosse team which he should not be doing. Both the DA and Def attorneys are playing a media game, and the DA is losing. If Vegas were taking bets on the final outcome on this case... Not Guilty/Dismissal would be 4:1 right now. The DA jumped the gun and used it as a polotical showcase. He is regretting it now and will regret it even more in the future.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#130)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:55:42 AM EST
    AZ Wrote:
    The taxi driver said he liked the $25 tip. I wonder how big of a tip he's gotten afterward?
    I read a couple stories that said the FARE was $25 and he liked the big tip, NOT that the tip was $25.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#131)
    by azbballfan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:59:44 AM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one: Thanks for the link. I'll admit that the evidence now indicates Seligman did leave the house sometime around 12:19. We still have to be wary about statements the defense team makes out of court. It's a shame that the defense team didn't wait until the appropriate time to present this evidence. All it does is taint any future jurors. I'll give you that the DA may have the wrong guys - but now at least hopefully they will get statements from the boys which will help them figure out what did happen. It's unfortunate in this case that the DA has to file charges in order to compel the players to talk.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#132)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:00:04 AM EST
    kali: Read the above link. The fare was $17 and the tip was $25. Wish I could tip like that...

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#133)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:03:42 AM EST
    The taxi driver said he liked the $25 tip. I wonder how big of a tip he's gotten afterward?
    Actually, what the driver is quoted as saying is...
    COSBY: And how much of a fare was it? How long were you with them? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 30-35 minutes, and they asked me how much it is. I told them about $17, $18, and they gave me--Reade, I believe, he gave me $25. COSBY: So they gave you a pretty big tip? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very big tip, yes. COSBY: Is that why it stands out in your mind? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, because I'm with them a long time, they make my car smell. That's the only reason I have them in my mind.
    I have little doubt that the cab driver will be called as a witness in this matter. The fact of the second pickup, the time of the second pickup, who the second pickup was, and what this person said is potetnially very pertinent. (Were there two people picked up on the second fare or, was this person alone and talking on a cell when he reportedly made the comments???)

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#134)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:12:51 AM EST
    Tiger asks:
    (Were there two people picked up on the second fare or, was this person alone and talking on a cell when he reportedly made the comments???)
    Rita Cosby April 19. 2006
    I thought this was very powerful, that the cab driver said the second call that came to the house was the following--and this was not the first call with Seligmann. This was when he picked up four other boys.


    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#135)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:14:57 AM EST
    azbballfan, I think the guys were picked up by the cabbie at 12:19, and they were picked up a block and a half from the house, so they must have left the house at least a couple minutes earlier. Seligmann, anyway, seems likely to be innocent of the charges. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, Finnerty's lawyer has in exculpatory evidence.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#136)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:17:12 AM EST
    imho, I think your link is wrong.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#137)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:19:01 AM EST
    The 1 fact we do have is that the accuser positively identified Seligmann as one of the rapists. Now people are suggesting it was someone from the 2nd cab pickup instead of who the actual accuser said did it... why? Where is the logic to that?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#138)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:20:43 AM EST
    Hi sarcastic unnamed one , You have to scroll down almost 2/3 of the way. It's the the second interview of the night. Thanks for the heads-up though.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#139)
    by demohypocrates on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:23:32 AM EST
    It's unfortunate in this case that the DA has to file charges in order to compel the players to talk.
    If the DA did that he should be disbarred.
    It's a shame that the defense team didn't wait until the appropriate time to present this evidence.
    If this fella is in all likelihood innocent of the crime he is charged with, then when is the appropriate time? What paragraph of the Constitution says "arrest first, sort out later"? You need to keep that bloodlust in check.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#140)
    by demohypocrates on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:27:15 AM EST
    p.s. my above comment is directed at azbballfan

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#141)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:32:14 AM EST
    imho, found it, thanks. I'll quote this from the interview, only because I was involved with some other posters on the same subject a few days ago...
    NONA FARAHNIK, FRIEND OF DUKE SUSPECT: I've actually heard, similar to Sylvie, that they were actually very concerned because of the state of the strippers that there might have been a dispute about paying her, that they were worried that her pimp would come after them, and they weren't sure really how to handle the situation.
    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#142)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:35:35 AM EST
    Jlvngstn, Yikes!! the use of the term "preppy" with only a "limited caveat". The PC police are out in force. Next time I'll be sure to use a "full caveat" and a link to the Abercrombie and Fitch catalogue. My humble appologies if I've violated some unspoken "caveat" rule. I'm new here.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#143)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:36:39 AM EST
    b1fcs said...
    Now people are suggesting it was someone from the 2nd cab pickup instead of who the actual accuser said did it... why? Where is the logic to that?
    I'm not sure who you are referring to with your above statment, but what I find intriguing about the second fare is not necessarily that someone in that second cab ride may have been inovoled in any attack (although that may turn out to be the case) but that from what little we have heard out of the cab driver, it might not be unreasonable to opine that, at the very least, someONE in that cab has knowledge of something very untoward occuring at the party.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:37:58 AM EST
    Sure, how about an apology for the redneck accusation?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#145)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:48:09 AM EST
    jlvngston, You mean there's a "redneck" rule too? Is that with a full caveat or can I get by with a limited caveat?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#146)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:07:20 PM EST
    They can save themselves trouble in the id process by simply linking the dna from the rape to the appropriate persons.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#147)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:31:47 PM EST
    While we're playing the wild speculation game...
    someONE in that cab has knowledge of something very untoward occuring at the party.
    Maybe that untoward occurrence was a drunk (or drugged) belligerent stripper who wouldn't perform. Maybe his comment was a statement of disgust for having spent $400 for nothing.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#148)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 04:32:37 PM EST
    Maybe that untoward occurrence was a drunk (or drugged) belligerent stripper who wouldn't perform. Maybe his comment was a statement of disgust for having spent $400 for nothing.
    Could be. Perhaps if any of these guys (the party attendeess) had told the investigators of this disagreement/disappointment, then things would be very different today? There is a LOT we don't know at this point but, we do have good reason to suspect that the only three guys who were interviewed by police, lied to them. snip... According to a filing made by the district attorney's office, the residents of the house where the party took place told police that Seligmann was one of six players who did not attend the party. If this is true then one has to wonder how it is that the woman identified a player, who the party hosts claimed was not at the party...yet the photos show he was at the party. Why the disparity?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#149)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 12:28:20 PM EST
    Wow, I just saw there are 148 comments on this thread, time to close them down. I usually close them at 100. Regarding the numerous comments about my editing, yes, it is selective. But it is not based on point of view. It's based on my perception of length and repetiton of the same point in earlier comments by the same poster, taking up too much space with a transcript instead of just posting the link and sentence or two, allowing those interested to follow the link, my mood at the moment and my time constraints and the number of times in a day I see the same person commenting on the same topic, making the same points. See the definition of chatterer in the comment rules. This blog is a hobby. I get angry sometimes when I'm short on time and have to spend whatever time I have moderating comments instead of blogging new articles. I know my editing is far from perfect, but so many commenters do get the rules right that I suspect the ones who don't just don't want to take the time or don't care. In which case, neither do I and I use a heavier hand in editing. I also edit out what I know to be false facts that have not been reported -- such as in this case, those who claim the evidence shows a rape was committed-- as I don't intend to allow TalkLeft to be a source of misinformation. That being said, all of you are free to email me with a comment that should be deleted or one I've unfairly deleted. Keep a copy of your comments to send to me if you think I've deleted it unfairly and I'll consider reposting it. Just, please, try to keep your comments a reasonable length, learn how to post links (instructions and easy buttons are in the comment box) and don't reprint more than a few paragraphs of a news article or transcript. There are copyright rules and bandwith issues to consider. If you are commenting ten times a day or more, you should consider making a paypal donation. I do give more latitude to those who financially contribute, even small amounts if done regularly. Again, TalkLeft is not the Government, it's a personal site and while there is no first amendment right to say everything you want as many times as you want, I appreciate all of you who take the time to contribute with a comment.

    Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged | 148 comments (148 topical)