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Rove Waits on Pins and Needles

By Jeralyn, Section Valerie Plame Leak Case
Posted on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:32:02 AM EST
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Bump and Update: This just in from Karl Rove spokesman Mark Corallo [via e-mail in response to a question I e-mailed him]:

Nothing going on. I was told by several journalists who were down at the courthouse that the Grand Jury was not meeting today. Of course, the GJ may be meeting at the undisclosed location (as VP Cheney is out of town and not using it today...)

Thanks, Mark!

Update: Truthout Executive Director Mark Ash issues a "partial apology" regarding Jason Leopold's Saturday article.

The time has now come, however, to issue a partial apology to our readership for this story. While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story, we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it. As such, we will be taking the wait-and-see approach for the time being. We will keep you posted.

******
Original Post:

We are all, Karl Rove included, waiting on pins and needles. What do you think? Today, will an Indictment be announced or will nothing happen?

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    Rove Waits on Pins and Needles | 109 comments (109 topical)
    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dusty on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:41:55 AM EST
    At this point, if nothing happens I will be praying for Jason Leopold to come out of this mess unscathed.I will also buy a bottle of my favorite wine Friday evening and consume most if not all of its contents.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:46:04 AM EST
    Feliz Fitzo de Mayo? or Wait till next week... either way we will know today. Here's to hoping for the first one... George

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:51:40 AM EST
    if no indictment is forthcoming this week, there may be a simple explanation: Fitzgerald, through Rove, is after Cheney--and is willing to wait for it. Why not have Rove sweat it out? Rove's repeated requests(?) to appear before the grand jury would be sufficient evidence that his quarry is not handling the pressure--despite what what Big Media is selling us these days. How about next Friday, May 26th, along with Cheney in the frog march? I think it would be well worth the wait.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:29:00 AM EST
    "Are we there yet?"........"Are we there yet?".........."Are we there yet?"

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#5)
    by JK on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:53:16 AM EST
    There is a chance, albeit small and probably unlikely, that Rove changed his mind and decided to accept the plea deal (of course assuming the original story was true). That may be why nothing has (and will not) happen this week. Part of the agreement from Fitzgerald's end may be that he does not announce the indictment/deal publicly. TL had mentioned this as a possibility in the past. If true, this raises two questions: shouldn't rove resign if he has accepted a plea deal? and is this something that somebody, such as leopold, would have reported? I don't know. Just putting this possibility out there.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#6)
    by dutchfox on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:58:05 AM EST
    Who knows? We all may be proved right, or wrong. It's been an eye-opener for me to read the various takes on this case, but that said, it all boils down to what Jean Renoir said: "Everyone has their reasons."

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#7)
    by ksh on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:15:31 AM EST
    I'm beginning to think Fitzgerald is a plot to drive me crazy. Really, really hope the indictment happens today so I can stow the laptop.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:24:49 AM EST
    There is a chance, albeit small and probably unlikely, that Rove changed his mind and decided to accept the plea deal (of course assuming the original story was true).
    There's also a chance that Team Fitz hasn't even spoken to Team Rove this week or last, at all.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:17:03 AM EST
    Happy Friday!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#10)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:30:03 AM EST
    Fitzmas morning. The anticipation. "Throw me a frikkin BONE here. I'm the boss. I need the info!"

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:36:24 AM EST
    A few words from Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel for those in the MSM who claim have information supporting Jason Leopold and Truthout:
    And in the naked light I saw
    Ten thousand people, maybe more.
    People talking without speaking,
    People hearing without listening,
    People writing songs that voices never share
    And no one dare
    Disturb the sound of silence.

    Fools said I, you do not know
    Silence like a cancer grows. --Sounds of Silence


    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:45:13 AM EST
    It's 9:45 a.m. and there has been no media advisory from Fitzgerald. Folks, this aint happening, and it appears more and more they Jason and Truthout got it wrong. I don't think they lied, but Rove does not appear to have been indicted.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:45:13 AM EST
    It's 9:45 a.m. and there has been no media advisory from Fitzgerald. Folks, this aint happening, and it appears more and more they Jason and Truthout got it wrong. I don't think they lied, but Rove does not appear to have been indicted.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:51:26 AM EST
    Dem4Warner- I agree that it is starting to get late in the day for an indictment announcement. In addition, I have been checking the mainstream media and even RAWSTORY for ANY tidbit of news about an indictment and nothing... However, I am holding out hope till 2:15 p.m. (Eastern) - 11 a.m. Hollywood time That is the the approximate time that Fitzgerald announced the Libby indictment...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:59:02 AM EST
    Fitzgerald gave a media advisory at 9:00 a.m. in October. It said that the media could start setting up at 11. Nope, not happening today. I want some answers! (although I deserve nothing, really -- this has been good fun all week!)

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:03:06 AM EST
    A watched pot never boils...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:10:49 AM EST
    dem4warner - thank for bursting the bubble....but you are probably right....its looking more and more like Leo got punked....and so did we....I'm going over to truthout to raise hell Jeralyn, I think you previously stated that you hade spoken with Leo or at least corresponded with him....will you be talking to him and asking that he "out" his sources If Dem4Warner is right and Fitz made his announcement at 9:00 am for Libby, it stands to reason we should have heard something by now

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:14:18 AM EST
    If my blood pressure meds fail, will somebody TeVo everything today?

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:22:33 AM EST
    Funny how this defense lawyer site, where no violent criminal is ever truly guilty, fills with would-be prosecutors when the accused is a Republican/Conservative.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:23:21 AM EST
    For all I know, he might still give a media advisory. But it's now 10:15, and I doubt he'd want to hold a press conference later than 2:00 p.m. There is zero buzz. There has been no strong confirmation of anything Leopold wrote, but some very strong counter evidence presented. Byron York is no idiot. If he for a second thought that there was something to this story, he would never have staked his credibility or the National Review's on it. The left-wing blogosphere was doing a good enough job critiquing it as it was, and since it never made it to the MSM (there are probably fewer than 10,000 people who know about it!), there was no reason to lend it more credence by coming out so strongly against it. No, York, Goldberg, and others on the Right engaged this story to get some kicks at Leopold's expense. We would have done the same to them. Oh well. Maybe next week.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:47:58 AM EST
    dusty: Why on earth pray for someone who served up a dose of unadulterated bull -- that was almost instantly debunked as grossly implausible on its own terms -- to a bunch of people who, in their understandable zeal to see Rove get nailed, proved to be easy marks? Why pray for someone who, when confronted with very reasonable challenges and questions about the reporting, dug in deeper, moved the goalpost, claimed more and more sources, and in short simply compounded what increasingly appears to be an outright fraud, not some "innocent mistake" like being misled by his "sources"? (Oh, and what ever happened to the "I'll out my sources pledge?) If it was an innocent mistake -- like trusting "sources" telling facially incredible whoppers -- he has had more than enough information and evidence to admit the error all week. He didn't. He dug in deeper, got defensive. Moreover, ain't is a bit late to pray that he emerge unscathed? More than a little scathe has happened already -- and justly so. edger: Surely you can't be taking seriously JL's claim that MSM reporters heard information supporting his story and are just sitting on it. There are two possibilities here i can think of: (1) MSM reporters heard the exact same thing -- i.e., Jason's story -- and tried to verify it, without success; (2) he's just lying about this like everything else. Why the zeal to rehabilitate a thoroughly impeached witness, folks? It just hurts yur credibility (and TL's too). Speaking of which, i'm still at a loss to fathom why it is that TL gave this story as much credence (and airtime) as it did -- even stooping to flogging Wayne Madsen's complete whoppers (pretty sad when you need Byron York to point out the obvious flaws in that story -- lots of us already debunked it in the comments. I hate to say it, but this episode has made me a lot more skeptical of TL -- which I used to think was a smart site, with reasoned analysis, not a rumormill.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:59:29 AM EST
    Byron York is no idiot. If he for a second thought that there was something to this story, he would never have staked his credibility or the National Review's on it. York did not stake his credibility on what he said. He wasn't interested, I think, in convincing anyone who doesn't already take what he says as gospel. He was playing to the sheep. He was simply, and predictably, playing to the right and stoking his credibility with them. Same way people like Hinderaker do every day. York authored the book "The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy: The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President -- and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time". Where we see in Leopold a reporter trying to shine light on the circumstances of a serious problem, York sees a traitorous conspiratorial movement of leftwing crazies tearing his world apart. His smears of Jason Leopold are an extension of the thinking that drove him to write a book with that title.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:26:48 AM EST
    The ancients called this world Endurance.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:27:28 AM EST
    The latest headline at Raw Story: Lawyers say Fitzgerald's focus not outing, but coverup... Developing... No link yet for details.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:32:57 AM EST
    I miss the days when Rush and I used to sit around snorting coke and reading the latest unsubstantiated Drudge report that Kerry cheats on his wife, and reminiscing on good old Clinton days when the Clenis killed a man....You haven't lived until youve stared at the big Drudge light while high. How quickly the right blogs become the biggest skeptics out here in blogtopia(y!sctp!)...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:37:09 AM EST
    That's some scoop, there, Raw Story. Um, hasn't it been kinda obvious that Fitz has been focused for some time on the coverup? See, e.g., Libby indictment; reports of GJ testimony from Cooper and Miller; Fitz's statements at his presser. Kee-rist, he siad in plain terms that he was unable to get at the underlying crimes (vel non) precisely because of the coverup. Well, at least Raw Story isn't going out on a Truthout limb. Jason, how's about outing those sources, eh? Crickets.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:44:46 AM EST
    York appears to have gotten it right this time. And, as I said, he didn't even have to engage Leopold. The left-wing blogosphere was doing all the work for him. But he seems to have known there was nothing to the story, and thus took a particularly strong, fact-based stance against it. It was unnecessary for him to do so, but he did so nonetheless. Knowing he was probably right, he thought he'd add insult to injury and let the readers of the Corner get their kicks mocking an inside-the-left-wing-blogosphere story. Again, we'd have done the same.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:45:31 AM EST
    I want to suggest that people check out Steve Clemon's blog, the Washington Note and PollyUSA's diary on DailyKOS. There is some very interesting information to the effect that Armitage's testimony has helped Fitzgerald to focus in on Rove. Apparently, FWIW, Clemons is considered to have much more cred and contacts than Leopold and Madsen. Here's the link to PollyUSA's diary...you can get the link to the WashingtonNote there. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/19/102520/059

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:47:33 AM EST
    I think I've figured out how Raw Story works sometime. I read an article there yesterday and followed the link within it. Nothing's developing, it's all but done except for Raw Story's rewrite with another embedded link. Here's the deal The Washington Note Still, a cool place to bid some time and perhaps garner more info. Armitage appears to be the cooperative witness!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:49:26 AM EST
    I want to suggest that people check out Steve Clemon's blog, the Washington Note and PollyUSA's diary on DailyKOS. There is some very interesting information to the effect that Armitage's testimony has helped Fitzgerald to focus in on Rove. Dang! You beat me to the punch by 2 minutes. :)

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:52:17 AM EST
    mayan: That's an interesting story. Clemons is indeed worth paying attention to, although I think he got a little played by Inman on this "Armitage is the target of Fitzgerald investigation hogwash. Emptywheel at The Next Hurrah -- for my money one of the best news analysts on the web -- has a very good rundown/reality-check. Clemons has already backed off the Armitage-as-principal-target claim. The Armitage-as-valuable-witnees-against-Rove claim is interesting but I don't see why Inman would have any special window into that at all -- and I have trouble piecing together (from the admittedly fragmentary public record) a scenario in which Armitage has dish on Rove. Their circles were pretty independent of each other.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:56:34 AM EST
    SDangerfield, I don't think you read talkleft before this past week -- at least I can't recall you commenting here before. I suspect when this story is not in the news, we won't be hearing from you. Karl Rove is the subject of a grand jury investigation. MSNBC's David Schuster said a few weeks ago that Rove expected to learn his fate in about two weeks. I've covered the investigation since it began, writing over 400 posts on it. If you think it's not a legitimate topic to cover today, please go read another blog.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:04:01 AM EST
    There is zero buzz.
    That's my take as well. We don't know, or at least I don't think we do, that Fitz even met with the GJ either today or on Wednesday (or last Friday for that matter). Am I wrong about this? Looks like we're waiting til next week at the earliest, and the possible reasons for this are, I think, too many to even begin to speculate ...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:07:36 AM EST
    FWIW, the Raw Story "developing" has now "developed". A snippet:
    Late yesterday, Clemons received a barrage of responses from others closer to the case, including a lawyer to one who has testified, Clemons told me. These individuals vehemently disputed claims that Armitage was in legal jeopardy, saying that the erstwhile Powell aide had been nothing but cooperative in his appearances before the grand jury. According to Clemons' latest, Armitage testified three times before the grand jury. Those familiar with his testimony say he was "a complete straight-shooter" and "honest about his role and mistakes." "That said," he adds, "I have learned from several other sources that Richard Armitage was neck deep in the Valerie Plame story. According to several insiders, as soon as Armitage realized mistakes he had made, he marched into Colin Powell and laid out 'everything' in full detail."
    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:09:17 AM EST
    Dangerfield, it appears to me that Clemons is merely telling you what other Washington insiders are saying and he apparently took the conversation out further with today's update. I like this man's credentials:
    Greetings, and welcome to my website. During the days, I serve as Senior Fellow & Director, American Strategy Program, New America Foundation and, in my spare time, serve as Director of the Japan Policy Research Institute. I've also been encouraged by my great friend, Joshua Micah Marshall of talkingpointsmemo.com to start my own blog. So, connected here you will soon find thewashingtonnote.com, where I will more regularly comment on public policy debates that deserve attention. Until then, enjoy the articles and other items posted here.
    If Josh says he's cool beans, I've got a new bookmark.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:09:36 AM EST
    Okay, so really this Raw Story piece is just a rehash of Steve Clemons's latest.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:13:43 AM EST
    Also, there is this in Clemons's comments in response to an inquiry about whether he has been able to confirm the Leopold story:
    sylvia -- i have not been able to confirm jason leopold's story. all that i have been able to find is that there was quite a lot of activity at patton boggs -- but i don't know whether fitzgerald was there -- or whether this implied rove indictment -- or whether it was about luskin's own role. but the highly specific points offered by jason are things i have been unable to get at. steve clemons Posted by: Steve Clemons at May 19, 2006 11:42 AM


    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:13:45 AM EST
    SDangerfield (or should I say, GingerMan), the situation is maddening and very reminiscent of the well-known Sufi teaching story, the Blind Men and the (appropriately) Elephant. A whole bunch of people looking at different aspects of the same thing and describing entirely different creatures. We are so decidedly NOT in the "know." We are almost entirely in the dark and left to parsing through others' discarded tea-leaves and entrails to scry some divination of the "truth" Given that we don't really have a clue as to what Fitzgerald has garnered in his GJ testimony, subpoenas and depositions, every story seems to be a plunge into the turbid waters of the rankest of speculation. Still, it's one of the greatest games in town at the moment and fun for the whole family! And I have MAD PROPS for Fitzgerald for running the investigation this way. It's frustrating as hell but infinitely better than the tabloid that Ken Starr purposefully ran. Incidentally, I agree with you about emptywheel and Clemons. Loads of respect...and to PollyUSA as well as some others at firedoglake and Kos. Intrepid and incisive under impossible circumstances.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:15:56 AM EST
    SharonW: No aspersions toward Steve meant at all. He did, last night anyway, get a little taken in by what he thought was good dish from Inman re Armitage being a target, which he (Clemons) has I think acknowledged proves to be not so hot. On his beat, Clemons is great. I don't altogether agree with his politics (he's pretty hawkish) but he does fabuous work. His dogged pursuit of Bolton had, I think, a measurable impact on the Bolton hearings, if one could measure these things. It's worth a trip to Clemons's archives for the period running up to and including the Bolton hearings if you have some time.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:21:18 AM EST
    Fatalism all around. Perhaps Fitz is merely not in the game of verifying blogger scoops by indicting when they say he will. Could be he's waiting just so he can maintain, re-establish that level of control regarding an indictment. I doubt he likes leaks and chatter, and why wouldn't he just wait a little longer so HE could be the one deciding, not Leopold or whomever's scoop.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:25:51 AM EST
    Yo, TL! Way to snap SDanger's suspenders! Even if we don't get Rover indicted today - and it's looking that way - it seems we've gotten something shaken loose vis-a-vis the Armitage story. Plus, it keeps head-above-water my bet in the Rover Pool.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    Your suspicions notwithstanding, this has been an at-least daily stop for me for more than a year. I got exercised about this story in particular -- and delurked accordingly -- when I began to see what i regard as an alarming degree of credulity being displayed by a site that I respect and look to for solid analysis. (I've raised similar concerns at otherr sites that I respect as well, like FireDogLake--which jumped ot the conclusion that Bob Lenhard's appointmennt to the FEC was some kind of payoff to his wife, Viveca Novak.) [remainder deleted.]

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    TL: One further postscript. I really don't want to get into a peeing match here, but you've responded to a challenge not made. I have never said nor implied that the Plame case is not a legitimate topic. None of this discussion has been about the legitimacy of the topic. It's been about the legitimacy of a particular "story" -- which appears to be entirely or almost entirely a fabrication -- that this site pushed with great gusto, and defended. I think there were many reasons to treat that story very warily sitting on the face of the story. As I learned more about the author fo the story, those concerns multiplied geometrically. I think that the judgment to give this particular story airtime (and lend it more legitimacy than it warranted) is a meet subject for criticism and debate. If you are saying that any such criticism and debate is unwelcome on your blog, consider me gone. I'm finding your defensiveness here eerily reminiscent of Leopold's.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    Mmm, I like what I find reading backwards in his site. He's my new go-to-guy for the Washington rumor mill. And apparently he also noted the fuss at Patton & Boggs, so that part of Leopold's story has some merit. This part was good, too, as many of us have tried to figure out why there have been so many bouncy appearances by Rove this week:
    A week before the 2004 presidential election, Rove was decidedly despondent. His numbers showed him that John Kerry was likely going to win, but the furor about Teresa Heinz Kerry's comments about Laura Bush as well as a last minute Osama bin Laden video gave momentum to a turn-around that Rove saw unfold in the last few days before the race. According to those around him, his mood turned cheery and upbeat, really rather than falsely up, and TWN reported this. Likewise, before the Libby indictment -- about a week before -- when Libby had received a letter notifying him of his pending indictment and Rove had not, Rove's mood reportedly shifted from utter despondency to a much more positive mood. And this indicator proved correct and was also reported on TWN before the five count indictment was handed down. Rove missed the bullet that day, and Libby was taken down. I don't have a good read on Rove's spirits today, but what is suspicious is the degree to which the White House spin machine has gone out of its way to show Rove as calm, in control, witty. . .up. He was ebullient -- too much so -- in his AEI speech today. And AP is pushing a line that Rove's retainers are in unison divulging how "unfazed" the guy is about the Fitzgerald investigation.
    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:31:20 AM EST
    SD, you said I'm invested in Leopold's story and that is patently false. I have never said Leopold's article is correct. As you pointed out, I tried to verify it by communicating directly with Corallo and Luskin. It is worth discussing. And my interest in it has been from the legal point of view. Could the events have occurred as described. I've tried to point out details that don't make legal sense to me. So, please, don't ascribe to me positions I haven't taken.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:40:23 AM EST
    William Pitt, editor of Truthout, has a discussion going over at Democratic Underground you might want to check out.
    truthout was right on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, yesterday and today. We will still be right tomorrow and Friday, no matter what the goddam unbelievable lapdog mainstream media has to say (or more to the point, doesn't have to say) about it. I understand your frustrations at the way this has played out; in fact, I call your frustration and raise it a billionfold. There are good reasons for this, and those reasons will be made clear when everything comes out. Those good reasons haven't made the process easier.


    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:41:39 AM EST
    The calm before the storm. Be patient, but outraged - feel the burn. ;)

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:01:26 AM EST
    I have to pee! Are we there yet? This is a real suspenseful journey! It's Friday already! Are we there yet! I don't know about you but it's driving me crazy!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:18:54 AM EST
    Thanks for the William Pitt link. Makes it sound well worth the wait. If true, I am glad that Leopold got it out. Otherwise the impending announcement would be exciting but a lot less rich because we would never have known that there was a delay.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:05:00 PM EST
    SD- I've agreed with you for the last week, and I'm in the same boat as you as a delurker. I've been reading this site twice a day since October, but I'm just now jumping into the comments because of what I saw going on with the Leopold story. I respect all of the commenters here, but I do think that some of them remain overly credulous and too willing to make apologies for JL's shoddy reporting. But I think your attack on TL is completely unwarranted. This has been the best place on the web for the Leopold/Rove story this week -- and I for one appreciate TL reporting the bare facts of her conversations with Luskin, Corallo, York, and Leopold. She presented the Madsen report with due skepticism. And if you read her posts and then read the comments here, you were better informed than anywhere in the blogosphere. I do have one point of disagreement with TL: If Leopold's sources lied to him, or leapt to false conclusions, or in any other way misled him, it is in some measure his fault for bad reporting. He either trusted his sources without sufficient skepticism, or he reported their guesses as fact, or he claimed his sources had closer access to the story than they actually did. (Or he outright lied.) We ought to hold him accountable for it as we would any other reporter.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:23:02 PM EST
    As for William Pitt: truthout was right on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, yesterday and today. We will still be right tomorrow and Friday, no matter what the goddam unbelievable lapdog mainstream media has to say (or more to the point, doesn't have to say) about it. That statement is false on its face. Truthout reported as fact (not speculation) that Rove was indicted, that he was given 24 hours to get his affairs in order, and that an announcement would come this week. 24 hours (by any measure) elapsed, and an announcement did not come this week. So truthout cannot be "right" Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and forever. I'm sure Pitt is frustrated at the way this has "played out," but Leopold reported to us as fact the way it would play out, so if it has played out differently, he was wrong. Maybe it's not a big deal that he was wrong if he was correct on the underlying fact that Rove was indicted last Friday. (I'm dubious, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.) But you cannot argue that truthout was "right." That's just not an operative statement and should not be treated seriously.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    w0551-Isn't it plausible that no announcement was made for reasons that will be soon apparent? It is not like this admin believes in playing by expected rules or common practice.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:38:32 PM EST
    Certainly, it's plausible. I'm just saying you can't say "truthout was right" under the circumstances. One big problem with Jason's reporting (for the last six months that I've been following it) is that he attempts to score credibility points by predicting things that are about to happen. He's not a speculator, he's a reporter. If he predicts that an announcement will be made, and an announcement is not made, then you can't say "truthout was right." Leopold should make smaller claims in his articles if he's not confident that they will play out as he says they will. And if truthout has additional facts as to why an announcement was not made -- which Pitt implies -- why aren't they reporting them? I also don't think the administration is calling the shots here. Fitz is. (At least, I hope he is. Otherwise things are about to get very scary.)

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:48:47 PM EST
    So here's how Leopold is going to play this... Rove accepted a plea deal... after he was indicted... in an unprecedented legal move by Fitzgerald... because Rove is going to finger Cheney... like Leopold has been writing since VIPS started shutting up about it in October... I can't wait to hear the Leopold speak. In a perfect world, he would divulge all of his sources, but I know it's not going to happen. He's going to spin this, I can just feel it. Surprise me Jason, please.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:55:32 PM EST
    Mark Corallo - American Patriot or Liar and Right Wing Hatchet Man - Up Close and Personal:

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:59:23 PM EST
    w0551
    If he predicts that an announcement will be made, and an announcement is not made, then you can't say "truthout was right."
    Here is what leopold said about an announcement:
       An announcement by Fitzgerald is expected to come this week, sources close to the case said. However, the day and time is unknown.
    Hardly definitive.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:19:02 PM EST
    You're right, Squeaky. Point taken.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:20:24 PM EST
    In view of this , why would anyone believe anything Leopold says without independent confirmation? The Duke AV has more credibility and I don't believe her. Con men exploit this sort of desperate will to believe.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:02:00 PM EST
    It is now 5:00 PM May 19th. No Fitzmas. This has had me ready for smelling salts since last Sat. This is getting out of hand. If nothing happens period, I mean never, I may have to require a suicide watch for myself. I guess Fitz has his own schedule and doesn't cater to my wants or needs. I wish he did and this would be over.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#61)
    by theologicus on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:02:19 PM EST
    I'm crushed, crushed. I will not place my faith in Jason Leopold's predictions of the future, or anyone else's, ever again!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#62)
    by fireback on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    SDangerfield, I could not disagree with your more regarding with your comments about TL. Interestly, they remind me of the current administration's bashing of the messenger, not the message. I think TL has gone out of her way to provide factual, legal perspective. When you consider all of the facts surrounding this article: 1) Leopold's editor 2) Supposed single sourced MSM reporters (allegedly) 3) The risk to Leopold's career and the editor for being wrong 4) Madsen's report and past reports There is plenty there to at least provide a place for inspection. Not to mention, as I have said before, you should have the wisdom to know that these types of small non-MSM reports imply the existence of some imperfection. Let's say that one of his sources was an attorney who worked on the same floor who eye-witnessed Rove and Luskin present. Suppose another was a receptionist who misunderstood the difference between "will indict" and "has indicted". Would you not want this information? Of course. Yea, its not Deep Throat, but its important. As I've said all along regarding yours and others skeptism. Your problem is not with the report or reporter, its with you inability to see that somethings are taken literally and some not. To me, the meat of the story was that their was a meeting on Friday and an indictment was virtually guaranteed. Which by the way has not been disproven.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#63)
    by fireback on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:23:37 PM EST
    Lastly, it is extremely unlikely that TO's editor and Leopold were in some way intending to be fraudulent. Maybe duped, maybe poorly sourced, but not fraudulent. If the former is true, that's a story that needs diasection on its own.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#64)
    by fireback on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:25:58 PM EST
    Damn it, I wish I'd proofread more often.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:42:12 PM EST
    The Left may well be on Pins and Needles. I very much doubt that Rove is the least bit worried. You don't find it the least bit odd that none of this reporting has hit the media?

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:55:14 PM EST
    theologicus: I will not place my faith in Jason Leopold's predictions of the future, or anyone else's, ever again!
    Men occassionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry on as if nothing had happened. -- Winston Churchill
    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:02:22 PM EST
    Humor Me... Baby Steps Let's pretend for a moment - that I am a special prosecutor - have an evil doer (for these purposes we will refer to him as Official "A") - by the short ones - on charges of lying to investigators, perjury, and obstruction of justice - all very serious crimes - with someone going to jail - it is not me. Naturally, Official "A" is an unhappy person - very unhappy - all the money in the world - his good looks - powerful friends - high priced defense lawyers - can't help him beat this rap. Also pretend - there might be other evil doers on my radar - Official "A-" and Official "A+" - that this special prosecutor - is building cases against as well. In exchange - for Official "A's" cooperation and testimony - in helping bring these other evil doers to justice - hypothetically - I just might cut Official "A" some slack - on one or more charges - at sentencing. [More than 90 percent of federal defendants plead guilty. Some do so during the pretrial phase as part of a plea bargain, in exchange for the prosecutors' dropping some charges or recommending a more lenient sentence.] Naturally - as a special prosecutor (remember, humor me) - I have presented evidence - before a grand jury - on more than one occasion - finding of probable cause for grand juries - necessary to issue an indictment - is a relatively low standard of proof. Finally - imagine - 12 of the 23 jurors - have already voted to indict Official "A" - consider the proposition - that I might want to keep that information secret (e.g. "sealed") - use it as leverage - to negotiate with Official "A" - and his lawyer - for unconditional cooperation - to bring all the evil doers to justice. In a perfect world - this would be - swell.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:05:35 PM EST
    Hi everyone....just something to consider while waiting for Fitzgearld to indict rove....the longer it takes for an indictment to be handed down the greater the risk roves trial will not be over before bush leaves office , which means a greater chance bush will not be able to pardon rove.. So while it is a bummer rove is still not been brought to justice.. the longer it takes Fitzgearld to build a case against rove the more justice "we the people" will receive...keep the faith!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:17:36 PM EST
    Damn my technical incompetence! (It's almost as bad as my typing.) I once again didn't mean to double post that already overlong comment. It's chutzpah to expect anyone to read it once. Apologies all around from the department of redundancy department.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:33:11 PM EST
    SD... I too have been visiting this site for over a year but never posted until this week. I think when we are living through another Watergate it's valuable to get a legal viewpoint on developing events.... and it's very generous of TL to provide this kind of professional insight. Interesting that you and I have such widely differing perceptions of the same exchange. I thought TL's postings were "fair and balanced" throughought... pointing out various flaws in the story from a legal standpoint (sealed indictments, suspicious/puzzling order of events, questioning the "secret service detail," etc.) And TL though not a reporter by trade, even went to the trouble of contacting the principals by telephone to question the story's veracity... an act of courage for which I was exceedingly grateful. Of course TL was caught up in the overall excitement, and no doubt will rejoice as much as any of us at the news of Rove's indictment. After all, the proprietor of this website makes no pretense of being a disiniterested reporter with no political bias. Just look at the title of the blog, for goodness sakes! I love this site, and I greatly admire Ms. Merritt and appreciate her generosity in providing such detailed and knowledgeable information.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#71)
    by Dusty on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:44:51 PM EST
    emdee..I agree with you..thanks for saving me the time of typing it out. Ms. Merritt does provide a great service for those of us not in the legal profession.Her site was one of the first I linked to when I started my blogging.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:45:08 PM EST
    New statement just posted at truthout.org: The Rove Indictment Story as of Right Now By Marc Ash, Fri May 19th, 2006 at 04:23:39 PM EDT :: Fitzgerald Investigation (2 comments) On Saturday afternoon, May 13, 2006, TruthOut ran a story titled, "Karl Rove Indicted on Charges of Perjury, Lying to Investigators." The story stated in part that top Bush aide Karl Rove had earlier that day been indicted on the charges set forth in the story's title. The time has now come, however, to issue a partial apology to our readership for this story. While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story, we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it. As such, we will be taking the wait-and-see approach for the time being. We will keep you posted. Marc Ash, Executive Director - t r u t h o u t mailto:director@truthout.org

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:46:58 PM EST
    What is a "partial apology?"

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#74)
    by LibraryLady on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:04:34 PM EST
    What's "out in front of the news cycle"??

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:13:34 PM EST
    I've deleted SD's latest comment. The story is not me but Karl Rove. He already expressed his thoughts earlier. I've saved it so if he wants it back, I can e-mail it to him. Thanks to those of you who expressed your satisfaction and appreciation of my reporting on the developments this week -- it is much appreciated.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#76)
    by rilkefan on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:23:58 PM EST
    I for one found that comment topical, even though I happen to disagree with it - I haven't been reading these threads religiously and the claim was new to me.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#77)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:26:40 PM EST
    Back to the wait...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:34:54 PM EST
    PARTIAL APOLOGY: "I'm not sorry to be sleeping with your husband because we really love each other, but I am sorry to have hurt you." OUT IN FRONT OF THE NEWS CYCLE: "You mean your husband hasn't told you about us yet? OOOOOP-sie!"

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#79)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:42:04 PM EST
    I've deleted SD's latest comment. The story is not me but Karl Rove.
    I did not understand the personal vehemence towards JL or TL. What is the point? Very repetitive and non productive. SD is not alone in the knicker twist Leopold set off. I don't get it. Must be over my head. I for one am grateful that you posted JL's article. Great discussion has come from it. An important piece in the string you have created here. Thanks.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:25:23 PM EST
    TL, "I've deleted SD's latest comment. The story is not me but Karl Rove. " I find that very distrubing, and sad. I was fortunate enough to have read SD's thoughful and well articulated criticism of your coverage of this JL/Rove affair and agree with his analysis. If you thought he was wrong or even out of line, why not offer your rebuttal, or you can simply ignore him. But to delete his post entirely, how very republican of you. I have to say I'm quite disappointed in you; that's a shame because I've been a fan of your blog and make it a point to visit daily, but no more. A very dissapointed ex talkleft fan.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 04:07:57 AM EST
    SDangerfield, in the first sentence of his first post in this thread referred to Jason Leopold as "someone who served up a dose of unadulterated bull" , and to Jason's article as "almost instantly debunked as grossly implausible on its own terms" with no reasoning or evidence whatsoever offered for these statements, and referred to TL commenters as "easy marks" in the same sentence. From these initial unfounded premises he moved on to the rest of his statements which carried an underlying insolent tone, and were for the most part simply defenses for his insulting opening statements, blanket unsubstantiated accaccusations of lying on the part of Leopold, e.g. "he's just lying about this like everything else", outright dimissal of opinions other than his own, e.g. "Surely you can't be taking seriously JL's claim that MSM reporters heard information supporting his story and are just sitting on it", where those opinons differed from his own, e.g. "There are two possibilities here i can think of", to finishing that comment by accusing Talkleft of being a rumour mill for discussing Jason Leopolds story. In later comments he criticized Tallkleft for even discussing this topic, with a thinly veiled suggestion that Talkleft should give Leopolds article no coverage: "I think that the judgment to give this particular story airtime (and lend it more legitimacy than it warranted) is a meet subject for criticism and debate", It was pleasantly suprising Jeralyn that you let him go on as long as he did. You showed much more tolerance for dissenting ideas than he deserved and than he would have or would have wished you to unless they were his. I wonder if SDangerfield had burned any books lately?

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 04:44:13 AM EST
    Whether or not Rove's people played Leopold, I bet they would love to see some of the bitter accusations flying around here. Yes, I'm disappointed the story appears not to have been true, and am pretty unhappy with truthout's "partial apology," but I think overall TL handled this whole thing really well, and this is still my favorite site. I definitely appreciate all the time and analysis put into the whole Plame thing here. (And all the discussion over how to handle a story like this has been pretty interesting and informative.) Maybe deleting SD's comment was a bit over the top, but whatever - it seems like time to just take a deep breath and move on...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:09:16 AM EST
    If Rove raped that stripper he needs to be in jail. Oh, wait. Wrong thread. In any case I think the Dems need to focus on ideas. The focus on Rove will not win you elections. A waste of energy. Sad. Because the country really needs a sane opposition party. If this story was planted by the right they have accomplished their purpose. If it was planted by the left- what were they thinking?

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:15:10 AM EST
    PJF, The pleading you refer to happens most frequetly in drug cases. Why? When it comes to drugs most juries are hanging juries.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:29:55 AM EST
    The one thing that keeps coming to my mind while I read over and over the calls for Jason Leopold's head... How many times in the past has he been wrong on what he's reported? How much do we all know? I don't know enough to comment with certainty...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:38:25 AM EST
    Living in an extended state of excitement and tension is very unhealthy. If someone dies, will the wrongful death suit be against Fitzpatrick, Rove or both? ;-)

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#88)
    by cmpnwtr on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:31:59 AM EST
    A short comment on this story and the emotional reactivity of blogosphere participants...There is a great desire for some semblance of justice and accountablility for the Bush administration, and its primary strategist, Karl Rove, where there has been none up to this point. Karl Rove was the architect of the PR campaign to promote a tragic war with tragic outcomes based on lies. Karl Rove has been the architect of an effort to dismantle what little safety net, environmental protections, and civil liberties we have in this country. He is the Goebbels of our time. So we look for a champion where we can find one when we have been abandoned by the corporate info-tainment media and the Congress. Patrick Fitzgerald is our champion. And we look for an Edward R. Murrow where we can find one. I don't know if Jason Leopold's story is true. Time will tell. But I know I can't let my passing disappointment degenerate into name-calling or recrimination. We are in a fight with authentically malevolent forces in our country who are undermining the freedoms, the constitution, and the what remains of the values of a humane and democratic social order. So let us not poison the nest of the blogosphere with our rage. This is a truly democratic and accessible forum where mutual support and dialogue can promote inventiveness and courage in the struggle against a tyranny that threatens our civil liberties and planetary peace.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:39:18 AM EST
    Jsaon Leopold may have been right that Rove was to have been indicted this week. The circumstances may have been changed by events or through machinations we know nothing of. Jason Leopold may have been wrong. He may have misinterpreted things his sources told him. He may have been truthful and honest in his reporting. His sources may have misled him, either because they thought they were giving him accurate information, or because they may have themselves been misled by other sources who either may have thought they had real information or who may have been fed lies by others who knew they would pass them to Jason's sources as fact. We can speculate forever on what happened here. As I see it, the greatest danger that may come of this is that the quality of new reporting by the MSM with their golden handcuffed reporters, the real media and independent journalists beholden to no one, and the blogosphere, may deteriorate through the fear that there will from now on be absolutely no way to have 100% confidence in sources in future it it turns out that Jason Leopold was set up. Some here have suggested that Leopold's article was intentional lies and fabrications. I think that is the least likely possibility, if for no other reason that he could not possibly hope to gain from such. As I said the last Monday May 15:
    There's an elephant sitting in the middle of the room that I see some are doing their squirmiest best to avoid looking at.
    Why would anyone lie knowing that he'd be caught at it and damage his reputation?
    The uncomfortable truth of it is that no one would, unless completely off his nut. Which is why the swiftboating of Jason Leopold and the impugning of his professionalism, ability and credibility, and the portraying of him as drug damaged and incompetent began and is growing. Standard Rovian tactics. Demonize the messenger. At all costs avoid addressing the issue or considering the message. If Jason didn't lie, then either his sources did, or his sources themselves were lied to... If Jason didn't lie, then either his sources did, or his sources themselves were lied to. And the ramifications of that are obviously too uncomfortably close to the bone for some to accept.
    The poisonous atmosphere that we've all been living in for the past six years since these Orwellian aliens hijacked this society has finally brought us to this.
    "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible because there will be no words in which to express it... The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no thought as we understand it now."
    Something has died here... and we will all be held responsible by the wrongful death suit that has been filed against the entire society by this situation.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:46:50 AM EST
    Newspeak...

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:34:01 AM EST
    I suggest that the term 'swiftboating' be replaced with 'leopolding'. Jason - that is no slur against you, and probably not what you would have wished for as a legacy. But it would be a reminder that you fought for free unfettered speech.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:38:36 AM EST
    Kitt - How are you? Haven't seen you around in awhile. Hope all is well. Now will Rove be indicted? Let me see..... A major Repub player in front of a Washington, DC Grand Jury..... He will be indicted even if Christ appeared and says he's innocent. The real question is, will he decide to fight. I hope he does because this is all a contrived political deal, and someone needs to make enough noise for the world to see it for what it is. We have forgotten that the SP is not claiming that a "covert" agent was outed, which is the claim the Left first made, and the reason for his existence as SP. No, now we claim that they committed perjury, etc... Shades of Bill Clinton and what Is, IS. In the meantime, I'm enjoying watching the crowd slather and scream. Kind of sad, though, watching the "new" journalism destroy itself. I had high hopes for it. And that was for "both" sides.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:39:39 AM EST
    Not to make everyone throw up their hands in a "Oh not again" moment, BUT, there is an interesting post over at Wayne Madsen's site this morning. The point is to keep thinking, keep engaging, don't lop off the heads of the people who are really trying just yet. It may turn out that only 10% of Jason's article or Wayne's post are accurate, but while we're busy getting pissed at them, we've taken our eye off the ball. I may be disappointed that their reporting hasn't panned out but I'm not going to throw them overboard. Thanks TL. You never take your eye off the ball.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#96)
    by Kitt on Sat May 20, 2006 at 10:47:16 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ May 20, 2006 10:38 AM
    Kitt - How are you? Haven't seen you around in awhile. Hope all is well.
    I started a new job 3 months ago - someone here had to work in order to fund your social security check ;) - AND it was during the day. Now, I'm back to 2nd shift (whew!) so I can hang more on the computer! Well, certain blogs that is. Plus - I'm not into worrying over the Duke case. I'm more into ousting the evil Bush administration, but you already know that. Which is why I'm just calmly waiting for Karl's indictment - whenever it may come, it's fine with me.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#95)
    by Sydnie on Sat May 20, 2006 at 10:53:22 AM EST
    TL, I have a general question that you might have some perspective on that could be helpful, if you would be so kind and helpful to address it for me. A "lawyer" on DU has made the statement that "Prosecutors are visited by defense counsel; not the other way around. That's just how the dance is done." when presented with this report on Fitz's previous visits to Luskin's office -- " Nov. 7, 2005 issue - Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's decision not to indict deputy White House chief of staff Karl Rove in the CIA leak case followed a flurry of last-minute negotiations between the prosecutor and Rove's defense lawyer, Robert Luskin. On Tuesday afternoon, Fitzgerald and the chief FBI agent on the case, Jack Eckenrode, visited the offices of the D.C. law firm where Luskin works to meet with the defense lawyer. ... In any case, Fitzgerald made another visit early Friday morning--shortly before the grand jury voted to indict Dick Cheney's top aide, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby--to the office of James Sharp, President George W. Bush's own lawyer in the case, to tell him the president's closest aide would not be charged." That was from - this report which was also discussed here So, my question is ... why would it have been reported that Fitz did, indeed, go to those lawyers offices if it is "never ever done"? In your experience, is that portion of the story, in both cases of the previous report and the one we are discussing now, impossible? Could Fitz have gone to those offices without it raising eyebrows if it was "never ever done"? I don't recall anyone challenging that story when it was reported in almost all the major news outlets at the time. Could it have happened as reported or not?

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 11:01:12 AM EST
    Since everyone is still waiting, and waiting, and waiting, it seems that this is worth consideration, even if it is peripheral to the bigger story. And, I hope I'm not violating a copyright by copying it over here; I don't know the rules yet. (From TheNextHurrah) By DHinMI I had hoped Jason Leopold would just go away. It's clear from his own statements in various places that he's struggled with some substance abuse and mental illness issues. He has my sympathy for this. But he's now become a bigger story because he's made such grandiose claims about having deep sources all through the government and somewhere among the investigators or investigated in the Valerie Plame outing. [Please go over to Next Hurrah to read the rest. The preferred practice is to link to the blog you are citing and quote a short paragpraph and then post your comment about it. ]

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 12:36:36 PM EST
    No, now we claim that they committed perjury, etc... PPJ, who is "we"? Are you speaking for the Red Staters again, or are you channelling the 'Silent Majority'? FYI, the charges against Libby include one count of obstruction of justice and two counts of making false statements to federal investigators. Wikipedia on Scooter Libby Also, Rove may be in deeper doo-doo:
    Although some legal pundits felt that Rove was unlikely to have been in violation of the narrowly-worded Intelligence Identities And Protection Act -- in fact, the CIA's original "crimes report" submitted to Fitzgerald apparently did not mention the Act[69]-- many others argue that by compromising Valerie Plame's position, Rove may have broken one or more federal laws. According to John W. Dean, a FindLaw columnist and former presidential counsel, Rove is likely to have violated Title 18, Section 641 of the United States Code, which prohibits the theft or conversion of government records for non-governmental use. [70] In 2003, this law was successfully used to convict John Randel, a Drug Enforcement Agency analyst, for leaking to the London media a name of someone that he believed the DEA was not paying enough attention to in a money laundering investigation (Lord Ashcroft) . In a statement to Randel, United States District Court Judge Richard Story wrote, "Anything that would affect the security of officers and of the operations of the agency would be of tremendous concern, I think, to any law-abiding citizen in this country." Having pled guilty, Randel's sentence was reduced from 500 years in a federal prison, to a year of imprisonment and three years of probation. This may be seen by Bush's political opponents as setting precedent for the prosecution of similar leaks, and Karl Rove is likely to face greater consequences than Randel if indicted for violating Section 641. Whereas Randel leaked sensitive information about an individual whose name could be found in the DEA files, unlikely to affect the national security of the United States, it is argued that Rove may have leaked the identity of a CIA agent, an expert on weapons of mass destruction, at a time when the United States had gone to war based on the perceived threat from such weapons. Attorney and Watergate whistleblower John W. Dean observed that even if Rove didn't technically break the specific law barring the exposure of a covert agent, the administration has almost certainly run afoul of Title 18, United States Code, Section 641[71].
    Karl Rove Wikipedia

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:11:42 PM EST
    Crisco,
    How many times in the past has he been wrong on what he's reported? How much do we all know? I don't know enough to comment with certainty...
    Read Tim Grieve on this. He gives a good round-up:
    When we wrote in December 2005 that we thought some of Leopold's work for Raw Story was implausible, Raw Story editor John Byrne posted a response in which he defended much of Leopold's reporting but said that three stories hadn't been confirmed: a report that Cheney aide John Hannah was "given orders by higher-ups in Cheney's office to leak Plame's covert status and identity in an attempt to muzzle Wilson"; a report involving the Plamegate role allegedly played by Rove assistant Susan Ralston; and a story published days before Scooter Libby was indicted that said that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald had asked the grand jury to indict Rove; that Fitzgerald had asked the grand jury to indict Libby on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and outing Plame; and that two other government officials were likely to be indicted as well. When Libby was indicted the following Friday -- not that Wednesday or Thursday, as Leopold's reporting had predicted -- Libby wasn't charged with outing Plame, Rove wasn't indicted at all, and there was no sign of the two mystery officials.
    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:16:51 PM EST
    We have forgotten that the SP is not claiming that a "covert" agent was outed, which is the claim the Left first made, and the reason for his existence as SP. No, now we claim that they committed perjury, etc...
    Quoth Patrick Fitzgerald: "That talking point won't fly."

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:16:52 PM EST
    Kitt - Well, us seasoned citizens do appreciate your kicking into the SS fund.... The one thing I have never been able to understand about the Left's hatred for Rove is that it seems so misplaced. Kind of like The Joker hating Robin more than Batman... ;-) Maybe the thing is if they admit that Rove is just an implementer they would have to understand that Bush really is smart, rather being as dumb as they wish he was....

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:27:25 PM EST
    Batman and the Joker. Every once in a while the childish fantasy life of the cowering, anti-thought Right comes full into view.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:38:12 PM EST
    PPJ mistakes the fact that the Democrats take Rove seriously when he states that "bipartisanship is date rape" for the emotion of hatred, which PPJ, a mild-mannered sort, doesn't engage in himself.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:01:10 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - "We" are the mystic few who know how to summon you at will from your dark lair... (I mean a Dark Avenger has to have a dark lair..) You write:
    PPJ mistakes the fact
    Is that like your other invention, "survelling?" Jondee - Excuse me while I chuckle at your usual inability to make a rational comment.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:16:45 PM EST
    Though I wouldn't exactly trust either Leopold or Madsen as reliable sources, Madsen's post of this morning 5/20 not only reaffirms the claims about Gonzalez hearing the Rove indictment from the grand jury and Rove being informed of it at Luskin's office on 5/12, but he seems to imply that something further occurred that derailed the expected announcement, noting that, though the grand jury apparently didn't meet yesterday, the dockets contained a hearing for "U.S. vs. sealed" with the Libby case judge and a few hearings listed as "sealed vs. sealed" with another judge. Does any legal eagle here know or understand what "sealed vs. sealed" might mean? Yeah, it's all just idle speculation, but the dark insinuation seems to be that the WH/Rove legal defense team might have launched a counterattack challenging the status of the special prosecutor himself. Also, now that Comey, who appointed Fitzgerald, has left the administration, does anyone recall just who took over as the official to whom Fitzgerald is answerable, since his position is only protected by administrative directives and is not enshrined in law? (My recollection is that the woman? nominated for the post did not look good.) It doesn't seem illogical, given, at least, how incredible this administration is, and given both the dire political implications of a Rove indictment just now and the fanciful legal theories of executive power that the WH puts forth, that they might just go for broke by attempting to quash the indictment, (which other more credible sources have thought likely), by attacking and undermining the position of the special prosecutor). Idle speculation, of course... I hadn't read this site before, but following this story this week, I've found Ms. Merritt to be the most credible, even-handed and knowledgeable of those who dared to comment on it. Good job!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kitt on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:35:06 PM EST
    The one thing I have never been able to understand about the Left's hatred for Rove is that it seems so misplaced. Kind of like The Joker hating Robin more than Batman... ;-) Maybe the thing is if they admit that Rove is just an implementer they would have to understand that Bush really is smart, rather being as dumb as they wish he was...
    Oh now, Jim...and we were getting along so well! Ah - Karl is 'The Implementer' whilst George is 'The Decider.' Koo-koo Kachoo.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:44:00 PM EST
    For those wondering what the partial apology is, Salon's Tim Grieve called Truthout's Marc Ash to ask:
    Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday. That it didn't happen was a cause for concern, Ash said. In addition, Ash said that he's uncertain about some of the events leading up to and following the meeting that supposedly happened last Friday at Patton Boggs. Ash said he isn't sure now when the grand jury voted to indict Rove, although he said he remains confident that it did so before last Friday. He said that he isn't sure what's going on now to warrant keeping the alleged indictment under wraps, although he suggested that it must mean that Rove's team is cooperating with Fitzgerald somehow.


    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 03:19:03 PM EST
    I'm writing a new post about the sealed cases and Madsen's latest report now. As soon as I finish it, I will close comments here and invite you all to continue the discussion there.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#108)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 05:37:06 PM EST
    Is that like your other invention, "survelling?" Your inventiveness can be seen at work here. Hey, PPJ, if you want to be my secretary and manure spreader for my garden, you'll need to test for the first position, but you've proven from your posts here that you're uniquely qualified for the latter, just bring a shovel and I'll even let you listen to Fox radio news on your 5-minute breaks :>) Is that all you have today, PPJ, snark and not one talking point from A**rocket, worldnutdaily.com and newzwacx.com? You'll get no Rove points with such obviousy negligence, Pooh-Poohed Jim. Better luck next week!

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:16:49 PM EST
    Ok, I've changed my mind about writing on the sealed cases and Madsen's latest report for now. I've decided to wait until there is some other reporting that suggests my analysis may be accurate. Otherwise, it's just more speculation.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:24:20 PM EST
    aw..... what a dissapointment, I guess it is prudent after what we saw last week.

    Re: Rove Waits on Pins and Needles (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:11:43 PM EST
    I just started a new thread based on Tim Grieve's Salon interview today with Truthout's Marc Ash. Since there are 100 + comments here, I'm going to close comments here and invite you all to the new thread to keep the conversation going if you wish.

    Rove Waits on Pins and Needles | 109 comments (109 topical)