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Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo


The AP reports:

Prisoners wielding improvised weapons clashed with guards trying to stop a detainee from committing suicide at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the military said Friday. The fight occurred Thursday in a medium-security section of the camp as guards were responding to the fourth attempted suicide that day at the detention center on the U.S. Navy base, Cmdr. Robert Durand said.

Detainees used fans, light fixtures and other improvised weapons to attack the guards as they entered a communal living area to stop a prisoner trying to hang himself, Durand said. Earlier in the day, three detainees in another part of the prison attempted suicide by swallowing prescription medicine they had been hoarding.

Time to listen to the U.N. and the wise counsel of other nations: Close Gitmo.

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    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:27:18 AM EST
    TL: I gotta say (I think I have before, elsewhere) that closing Gitmo is just what the Unitary Decider wants to do. It has served its purpose - to establish the precedent he can lock people away and keep them in a hole away from even the pliant judges of the D.C. Circuit. At least until he's able to move the Senate to pass legislation sort-of legitimating what he's already done. Having served its purpose, Gitmo can be closed now, for immense PR value, while the unfortunate schlubs consigned to the tender mercies of incommunicado detention in secret CIA prisons elsewhere can welcome their fellow detainees being shipped in from Gitmo. Cynical? Yeah - but it's not to cynical for the Unit and his boys. I thought after 5 years of their crap, we (the world at large) would have learned that when they do something that seems humane and right, it's usually part of their gaming the system for their next outrage. Closing Gitmo now would, in the long view of history, be wrong. This, because it would allow burying the precedent into the law and into history, without any contemporaneous correction - via legal means. Gitmo is a pustule on the body politic which needs to be opened, drained, debreded, cleaned, and healed by exposure to disinfectant, sunlight and fresh air. Close it now, and that pus spreads its infection through the body, to its ultimate detriment.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:30:26 AM EST
    They should build homes or a luxury apartment building in NYC or the location of their choice, give a beefy lifelong stipend tax free to all the scapegoats at Gitmo who were rounded up as window dressing for the WOT. At the bare minimum.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:44:09 AM EST
    Gitmo is a pustule on the body politic which needs to be opened, drained, debreded, cleaned, and healed by exposure to disinfectant, sunlight and fresh air. Close it now, and that pus spreads its infection through the body, to its ultimate detriment
    There seem to be many pustules festering under the cover of national security. With that context in mind the Acne Administration needs a twelve step program as it is clearly addicted to cosmetics.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:51:08 AM EST
    I don't get it. Was UNITED STATES v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, 407 U.S. 297 (1972) overturned?
    When the Executive attempts to excuse these tactics as essential to its defense against internal subversion, we are obliged to remind it, without apology, of this Court's long commitment to the preservation of the Bill of Rights from the corrosive environment of precisely such expedients. 13 [407 U.S. 297, 332] As Justice Brandeis said, concurring in Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357, 377 : "Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty." Chief Justice Warren put it this way in United States v. Robel, 389 U.S. 258, 264 : "[T]his concept of `national defense' cannot be deemed an end in itself, justifying any . . . power designed to promote such a goal. Implicit in the term `national defense' is the notion of defending those values and ideas which set this Nation apart. . . . It would indeed be ironic if, in the name of national defense, we would sanction the subversion of . . . those liberties . . . which [make] the defense of the Nation worthwhile."
    How can the Bill of Rights be so conflicting?

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:12:09 PM EST
    Another question, how can Bush "determine" without due process? Without due process, all he can do suspect. Here's the relevant part:
    the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:12:26 PM EST
    ProzacNation: If you read some of the legal documents Abu Gonzo and his minions have put out to justify various of their programs, they have sought at every turn to avoid and vitiate U.S. v. U.S. District Ct. In the 50-some page memorandum late last year justifying the warrantless wiretapping, they were citing to the Court of Appeals decision in U.S. v. U.S. District Court (overturned by the Supremes) as authority. In one or more of the government's legal briefs in Padilla, they went so far as to redact quotes and citations from U.S. v. U.S. District Court, claiming they had to be redacted so the pleadings could be publicly available - I don't think they ever went so far as to claim the opinion as being classified, but I wouldn't put it past them. I've said elsewhere, without U.S. v. U.S. District Court, you don't get to U.S. v. Nixon, and I don't mean that in a political way. I mean it in a purely legal scholar way: District Court is a necessary precedent to support the conclusion of Nixon that the President is subject to the laws of the land and must obey the Courts. Thus, beyond the mere utility of wiretapping everyone and all the information derived that way, conducting the illegal domestic wiretapping and data mining and getting away with it tends to vitiate the strength of District Court as precedent, and consequently the value of Nixon as precedent. Weakening Nixon as precedent, then, is yet another attack on the judicial control over the Preznit - he doesn't have to obey no stinking court orders if Nixon is no longer viable precedent. And we get to the point where what ex-Preznit Nixon said - "If the President does it, it isn't illegal" - becomes de facto the law of the land, regardless of what the books say. There was a lot of thought that went into this administration's programs and the strategy behind them. If one were to think this was merely a response to 9/11, I'm sure they would discover otherwise. One simply can't make all this sort of legal thought up on the fly, nor can it come about - i.e. work through the courts and bureaucracy - without extended groundwork being laid and so on. The Nixon admin. refugees from thirty years ago have been honing these ideas ever since.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:44:44 PM EST
    ProzacNation - Gitmo is not part of the US CJ system. Sorry about that. Scribe writes:
    District Court is a necessary precedent to support the conclusion of Nixon that the President is subject to the laws of the land and must obey the Courts.
    The Executive is an equal member of the three branches. If you decide that it must "obey the Courts" then you have placed the courts above it. The Constitution provides the only punishment for a President, and that is impeachment. The House is the Grand Jury/DA and the Senate the Jury. And no one else. So, if you think the President has broken the law, feel free to contact your Congressman.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:01:44 PM EST
    In their shoes....I'd do the same.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:17:41 PM EST
    Thanks for the further explanation, scribe, and your conclusions support what my lay research is finding. What gets me is that most conservatives do not what is going on or what is at stake. If they did, they would object as did this Conservative Public Defender: YASER ESAM HAMDI; ESAM FOUAD HAMDI, as next friend of Yaser Esam Hamdi. His brief is written in mostly plain language, as if for the public, and it is very scary. Do the Freepers know what the neocons are doing? I think not. Most actually love liberty, or claim to, and would cringe if they knew. At this rate, if some Freeper happened to be domestic terrorist, the President could put ALL freepers in jail until they proved their innocence. Something else that is disturbing is that the neocons are so arrogant that they think all presidents will be Republican and will support their subversion of the Bill of Rights. Please, people, read the above PDF file. He eventually got to see his client, but it took years of battle. Lest some think him a bleeding heart liberal, there is Hamdi, Moussaoui Attorney Describes Court Battles. See, even Conservatives can say, "Give me liberty or give me death."

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#10)
    by Al on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:16:45 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Gitmo is not part of the US CJ system. Sorry about that.
    Stalin:
    The Gulag is not part of the Soviet CJ system. Sorry about that.
    Hitler:
    Auschwitz is not part of the German CJ system. Sorry about that.
    More PPJ:
    The Executive is an equal member of the three branches. If you decide that it must "obey the Courts" then you have placed the courts above it.
    The Executive is responsible for obeying the law, not the Courts, just like any private citizen. And yes, PPJ, hopefully Bush will be impeached and convicted some day.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:03:33 PM EST
    My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works ye Mighty, and despair!

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#12)
    by Andreas on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:41:01 AM EST
    Whatever actually occurred May 18, and there is good reason to be skeptical about every word that comes out of the mouth of a US military representative, the events underscore the hellish conditions at the internment camp, whose existence is a national disgrace. In the minds of many millions of people around the world, 'Guantánamo' is identified with perpetual incarceration without trial and various forms of mental and physical torture. Its establishment in January 2002 contravened international law and it has remained an outpost of illegality and sadism ever since. And yet there is no outrage in the US mass media or the Democratic Party, all of whom are the Bush administration's accomplices in this criminal enterprise.
    Guantánamo prisoners clash with guards after new rash of suicide attempts By David Walsh, 20 May 2006

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:59:45 AM EST
    Uh, Gitmo is part of the military justice system. The detainees have been found guilty. They are serving their time. In time of war prisoners can be held until cesation of hostilities and arrangements can be made for exchange of prisoners. Now, who would be a competent negotiating partner for such a treaty? No one? Then these boys bought themselves a life sentence. Unless the Saudis want them. Tough being an unrecognized military hiding among civilians. However, a super max prison with 23 hour a day total isolation might help prevent attempted suicides. So yeah. Down with gitmo.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:18:34 AM EST
    BTW the terrorist manual says: claim torture - no matter what happened. I'd trust the military more than the Islamic Imperialists.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#15)
    by Johnny on Sat May 20, 2006 at 04:22:31 AM EST
    The detainees have been found guilty.
    Really? All of them? I must have missed that memo.
    Tough being an unrecognized military hiding among civilians.
    What exactly are you saying here? Am I to believe that you personally know that every "detainee" is an active member of an opposition force? Of course! They would not be there otherwise!
    However, a super max prison with 23 hour a day total isolation might help prevent attempted suicides.
    That you skip right over the trial process and blunder straight into prison time speaks volumes.
    The Executive is an equal member of the three branches. If you decide that it must "obey the Courts" then you have placed the courts above it.
    What Al said. Opposite of what you imply.
    The Constitution provides the only punishment for a President, and that is impeachment.
    Does that mean you personally feel that impeachment supercedes all other punishments for all other crimes? The constitution mentions very little in the way of punishment for anybody.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:00:34 AM EST
    AL writes:
    The Executive is responsible for obeying the law, not the Courts, just like any private citizen.
    Exactly. So why be disagreeable when I point out that Scribe is completely over the top in his comment that the President must obey the "courts."
    And yes, PPJ, hopefully Bush will be impeached and convicted some day
    . The problem with this is that the crime he most often is accused of is that he "lied." That is a tough call, as the Repubs found out with Clinton. And actually, the Third Reich used the German CJ system to eliminate Jews, etc. The most well known dramatization of this is "Judgement at Nuremberg." Johnny here tis:
    Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
    That's pretty plain, eh? Why is that way? Well, mostly because the Pres must have protection against politically motivated claims and attacks. Those types of claims are addressed every four years. It looks like you have intermixed some of my comments in your mind. Read my 1:44PM comment.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:39:15 AM EST
    Exactly. So why be disagreeable when I point out that Scribe is completely over the top in his comment that the President must obey the "courts."
    Scribe is not being "over the top". The "courts", through written opinions and decisions, have the ability to enhance or modify a law's meaning. Therefore, indirectly, the Executive branch has to "obey the courts".

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:39:34 PM EST
    Uh, Gitmo is part of the military justice system. The detainees have been found guilty. They are serving their time.
    Nope:
    The Tribune's characterization of Guantanamo as a "detention camp" is precisely correct. Despite our persistent efforts to correct the record, many mainstream outlets--print, voice and electronic--persist in referring to this facility as a "prison camp." This is not mere parsing of words or semantic folderol. Prisons are about punishment and rehabilitation; Guantanamo is about neither.
    And:
    The U.S. military says 759 detainees have been held at Guantanamo Bay since the detention center began taking prisoners in the U.S. war on terror in January 2002. About 275 have been released or transferred.
    The U.S. has filed charges against 10 detainees.
    Can we finally put paid to the fiction that the term "unlawful enemy combatant" exists anywhere but in the minds of Bushco?
    The Convention Against Torture prohibits its signatories from using cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of prisoners, and obliges them to ensure that any detainee is given certain minimum legal rights. President Ronald Reagan signed the treaty, President George H.W. Bush formally sent it to the Senate for approval, and the Senate ratified it in 1994. Congress also passed legislation turning the treaty's provisions into domestic law, which President Bill Clinton signed. But after the 9/11 attacks, President Bush's legal team told him that he had the power to bypass domestic and international restrictions on the treatment of prisoners, such as the antitorture treaty or the Geneva Conventions. Last year Congress passed a law making clear that no US official can use any form of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment against detainees, anywhere in the world. But when Bush signed the new torture ban, he issued a ''signing statement" reasserting his claim that he has the power, as commander-in-chief, to authorize interrogators to bypass the restrictions.
    I just read the constitution again, and I can't find anywhere in it that the president can ignore laws when he signs them just because he kept his fingers crossed.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:42:07 PM EST
    BTW the terrorist manual says: claim torture - no matter what happened.
    Really!? And it was written in english and you just happen to have a copy of it!? Is this like The Little Red Book and every terrerist gets a copy? sheesh!

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:53:01 PM EST
    And it's only the terrerists claiming torture? How about the Red Cross, the FBI, the DIA, JAMA and this guy:
    "Last year, the Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Army, Navy, and Marine Corps also made similar observations on the al-Qahtani case. He told the Senate Committee on Armed Services that the interrogation techniques used on al-Qahtani violated the U.S. Army Field Manuel on Intelligence Interrogation.
    For its part, the U.S. State Department considers such techniques to be torture and has condemned their use in other countries such as Iran and North Korea in its annual Country Reports on Human Rights.


    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:33:11 PM EST
    Sailor - Well, at long last the the UN has weighed in.
    (2006-05-20) -- A day after releasing a report accusing the United States of torture, and demanding closure of its terrorist detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the United Nations anti-torture panel called on Al Qaeda to "open a detention facility anywhere, hold prisoners for years without charges, and subject them to controversial interrogation techniques. The panel's report laid out a process designed to move al Qaeda in "baby steps" from its current practice of beheading and blowing up innocent civilians, to taking them prisoner and torturing them, to eventually running a clean, safe, modern prisoner-of-war camp in full compliance with the United Nations protocols
    Scott does have a way with words.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:44:34 PM EST
    mac - No. And to say otherwise is to claim that the courts could, quite easily, void and change whatever laws they don't like and effectively rule the country. If the Congress, who is authorized to impeach, decides that the President has violated the law, then they can act. No one else is authorized in my copy of the constitution. This is very logical. Impeachment is, above all else, a political act. The Congress is elected by the people. Thus it is, and should be, the representatives of the people that should decide if the President must obey a law and punish him for not doing so.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:50:15 PM EST
    et al, please note while ppj links to fiction, as usual, this is what the military actually does:
    The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.
    On Nov. 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that on the previous day a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops killed eight insurgents, he said.
    U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.
    [...]
    Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.
    But I guess it's OK because at least the marines didn't cut off their heads.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 03:46:43 PM EST
    Fascism Anyone? The 14 points of fascism. 1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. 2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. 3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc 4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. 5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. 6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. Please visit the link for more and examples of each.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat May 20, 2006 at 04:05:25 PM EST
    ProzacNation-your link links right back to your TL comment. I assume that was a mistake as I can't imagine you, your comment or TL as remotely being an example of fascism.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 05:52:40 PM EST
    mac - No. And to say otherwise is to claim that the courts could, quite easily, void and change whatever laws they don't like and effectively rule the country.
    Jim - YES. And for you to claim that the "courts" have no influence shows your ignorance. To illustrate, I will cite an example.
    State anti-sodomy laws - Lawrence v. Texas (June 26, 2003) In reversing a Texas court ruling, the Court overruled its previous decision in Bowers v. Hardwick, holding that a Texas statute prohibiting certain sexual acts - namely those between same-sex partners - violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
    Here is the link to my above example. Other examples are on this Website as well.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 05:57:47 PM EST
    No one else is authorized in my copy of the constitution.
    By the way, does your copy of the constitution have every court decision that further defines the amendments? If it doesn't, then you only know a small percentage of what the constitution actually states.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:16:29 PM EST
    mac - I don't think this issue has been "changed." And my comments were in reference to the President. Again. If the President breaks a law, it is Congress who must act. No one else. And we are not speaking of "civil" complaints. i.e. Paula Jones. But you know that.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:09:42 PM EST
    Anyone else remember when this thread was about Gitmo?

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:39:45 PM EST
    Thanks, Squeaky, here is another effort: The 14 Points of Fascism.

    Re: Inmates and Guards Fight At Guantanamo (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:00:19 PM EST
    Wow great site ProzacNation.