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Estate Tax Repeal Fails

by TChris

Conservative lunacy month in the Senate is off to a poor start. Republicans couldn't muster even a bare majority to support a constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage. Turning their attention from their ultra-whacky base to their ultra-wealthy base, Republicans tried again -- despite an expensive war and rising deficits -- to repeal the estate tax. When it became apparent that the effort would fail, some senators tried to negotiate a compromise that would have exempted more estates from a tax that already affects fewer than 2 percent of all estates. Only 57 senators voted to cut off debate, three votes short of the number needed to move the legislation forward.

"Repealing the estate tax during this time of fiscal crisis would be incredibly irresponsible and intellectually dishonest," [Sen. George] Voinovich said.

Next up in conservative lunacy month: the flag burning amendment. This NY Times editorial worries that this one might actually have a chance of passing, thanks in part to Democratic senators who are willing to sell out the Constitution to pander to people who believe a symbol of freedom is more important than actual freedom.

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    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:43:14 AM EST
    For anyone interested in whether the Estate Tax applies to them (or will), here's a simple way to do it. (1) Take all your stuff - house, lot, car, furniture, etc., etc. - that will continue to exist after your death. (2) Figure out the most generous value it might have, i.e., look at it and honestly say how much it might get, but make yourself as rich as the value of these things will permit. (3) If you're not married and all your stuff is worth less then $2 million, you don't have to worry about the Estate Tax. Period. If you are married and your and your spouse's stuff is worth less then $4 million - still in the clear. I'd like to have to worry about the Estate Tax - it'd mean I have a hell of a lot more than I do. Likely the same applies to you.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:50:28 AM EST
    Ok what is next on the list of issues that cna be used by the Rethugs to pander to their bases, i.e. the rich and the fundamentalists. When they run out of issues then start worrying about a "terrorist" attack on a US interest, not necessarily here in the US

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:56:04 AM EST
    There's nothing particularly "conservative" about this idea. Conservatives are supposed to shrink government; the schmoes in office bloat the government so they can buy votes on credit by running a huge defecit. If they want to cut taxes -- a fine long-term goal in my book -- we have to pay down the debt first. The strategy if obvious, but hard to implement: cut spending, raise taxes, or both. After a few decades, the debt will be paid off or reduced to a non-terrifying level, and we can revisit the tax issue.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#5)
    by roger on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:04:12 AM EST
    Roy- do you mean like Clinton did? After flag burning, maybe these bozos could discuss Iraq, or the NSA?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:09:10 AM EST
    I'm all for a smaller govt. too, and reduced taxes. The size of govt. is totally out of hand. And absolutely...sound economics dictates you cut spending and debt before cutting taxes. However, the estate tax is probably the last tax that should be repealed or reduced. Bill Gates' dad wrote a great editorial about it. The American system and publically funded infrastructure helps make this wealth possible. Before it is passed on to the inheritors, America should get her share.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#7)
    by roy on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:39:48 AM EST
    Roger, I'm no fan of Clinton overall, but, yeah, like he did. The man got us operating on a sensible budget that could pay off the debt in a few decades, while his peers pretend it's not even important. Good on him. kdog, Publicly funded infrastructure helps make the wealth accumulated by everyone possible, not just the super-rich, so shouldn't we tax all estates? Also, the rich pay more taxes as that wealth is accumulated, thus creating that infrastructure, so it seems like the public already got its fair cut. (I'm ignoring tax shelters because I have a strong hunch that if they successfully prevented it from being counted as taxable income, they'll also prevent it being counted as a personal asset for the estate tax)

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:52:48 AM EST
    Considering how ineffective many taxes are because they result in a lot of tax avoidance (like kdog's buying his cigs on-line and/or out of state to avoid NY's cig tax) I wonder if this tax loses more revenue than it gains. I own a small mom & pop business. If the loan on it and my 1500 sf mansion (I live in LA) were anywhere near paid off, I'd also qualify for this tax. Oh yeah, when and if these loans are ever paid off, America will have looong since gotten her share. Sorry, $2,000,000, while a heck of a lot to me, is still way too low a measure for this kind of tax. I believe the original intent of the tax was to breakup the kind of oligarchical family dynasties that existed in Europe. $2 million does not a dynasty make, imo.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:20:27 PM EST
    Another strike against the passing of family farms on to the newer generation. Yep, I grew up on a farm.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:23:21 PM EST
    KDOG and Roy are right on. I would like to see gov't shrunk. It is way too big. First things first and that means we have a deficit to close and a debt to pay off. The estate tax is one means to raise revenue. Tax cuts do not raise gov't revenue. This fallacy has been proven false over and over again. When tax cuts are implemented the deficit immediately rises. When taxes are raised the deficit is reduced. It is a simple concept and it takes a lot of blather to somehow convince people of the exact opposite effect. If we don't pay of the deficit and shrink the debt through the 2% who have estates large enough to actually be taxed, than it will have to be paid off by others through a different revenue stream.
    The American system and publically funded infrastructure helps make this wealth possible. Before it is passed on to the inheritors, America should get her share.
    Exactly true. And the publically funded infrastructure built since WWII has largely been built through the accumulation of debt. The ones who benefitted most (the 2% with the largest wealth) should have some responsibility for paying this debt down vs passing it off on the general population in the future with lesser means.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:24:04 PM EST
    Another strike against the passing of family farms on to the newer generation. Yep, I grew up on a farm.
    So did I. How many family farms are left? Few, its a sad state. they should be able to accomadate this particular situation. I'm not very sympathetic to the huge corporate farms

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#12)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:31:01 PM EST
    Another strike against the passing of family farms on to the newer generation. Yep, I grew up on a farm. Please find one instance of someone being forced to sell the farm to pay the "death tax." Just one.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:32:08 PM EST
    I wouldn't be opposed to raising the threshold...I can understand with the price of housing how a lot of new people will be qualifying for this. And I think your right on the intent of law sarc...the prevention of an American aristocracy. Raise it up to say ten million. We all now the govt. ain't gonna stop spending...it's what they do. To repeal this tax means the money's got to come from somewhere....namely the middle class. With the ever widening gap between rich and regular...I feel this isn't the time for another giveback for the well-to-do. First cut spending and reduce the debt...then look to cut taxes across the board for everybody.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:32:40 PM EST
    It may interest those currently weeping over the sad fate of America's small farms and small businesses that the number of small businesses affected last year by the estate tax was: 50. Not 50 million. Not even 50 thousand. 50.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:38:17 PM EST
    I pay in excess of a million dollars in taxes every year and do not try to have shelters. I pay taxes on my nanny and household help, I am hard pressed to feel sorry for the billionaires who have to pay an estate tax. Problem is, I hate that any of my money goes toward the war effort, guess I have to take the good with the bad. I am with those who think the bar should be higher, like 10 million......

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Scar: So 50 is an acceptable number?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    from american prospect
    A decades-long campaign by right-wing activists (brilliantly documented by Yale professors Michael Graetz and Ian Shapiro in their book "Death by a Thousand Cuts") has convinced many Americans that the estate tax poses a threat to countless hardworking families. That was always nonsense, and under the estate tax revisions that almost all Democrats support -- raising the threshold for eligibility to $3.5 million for an individual and $7 million for a couple -- it becomes more nonsensical still. Under the $3.5 million exemption, the number of family-owned small businesses required to pay any taxes in the year 2000 would have been just 94, according to a study by the Congressional Budget Office. The number of family farms that would have had to sell any assets to pay that tax would have been 13.


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:21:40 PM EST
    The number of family farms that would have had to sell any assets to pay that tax would have been 13.
    thats trival compared to the other factors driving families out of farming.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:32:58 PM EST
    plenty of googleable stuff to support the ending/adjustment of the tax...just as there is a lot to support keeping it:
    Relying on a 2001 analysis, JEC found that "approximately 2.6 million acres of forest land must be harvested each year to pay for the estate tax. Another 1.3 million acres must be sold to raise funds to pay estate taxes, of which close to one-third (29 percent) is either developed or converted to other uses." Add these extra 377,000 acres to the figure above, and the death tax devours some 2.98 million acres each year.
    "Death tax supporters think they're visiting vengeance on rich old people who've gone to their graves, but they're really wreaking havoc on other living things, like forests, meadows, lakes, and all the creatures they support," says National Taxpayers Union communications director Pete Sepp. "Committed liberals should commit the death tax to their compost heap of history." A big problem here is that the death tax strikes many who are land-rich and cash-poor. In a May 2003 study, Pamela Villarreal of the National Center for Policy Analysis found that "The average tree farm is valued at about $2 million, while the average annual household income of a tree farmer is less than $50,000." Such cash flow cannot cover huge death-tax liabilities. So, up go the "For Sale" signs. Among the 33 percent of forest owners who paid the death tax, "40 percent sold timber or land in order to make the payment ... About 57 percent of those who sold land had no other assets available to pay the estate tax."


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    The crap about the forests has already be debunked - geesh keep up

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:39:15 PM EST
    SUO, another reason to raise it to 10 million...... 1500 sq ft in LA? That must have run over a million easy.......

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:43:55 PM EST
    Now, yes, 7 years ago a little over 300K.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:45:56 PM EST
    Who would have thought. A big, driving force behind the movement to ban estate taxes is a deep commitment to protecting the middle class and our non-renewable natural resources. The Virtue of Selflessness side of The Virtue of Selfishness. I knew it was there all along.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:57:06 PM EST
    soc, as I said, plenty of googleable stuff to support the ending/adjustment of the tax...just as there is a lot to support keeping it. And thanks for linking to a comment on a blog written today, yet making the "keep up" comment. Geesh your own bad self.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#25)
    by roger on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:01:13 PM EST
    50 farms, or 15? How many died in Iraq today? Besides the one who had it coming?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:09:48 PM EST
    Speaking of smaller gvt, we do recognize that smaller gvt means fewer gvt jobs/gvt workers, right?
    Since Bush took office in January 2001, government jobs have dropped by 51,000 -- nearly 2 percent.


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    Since Bush took office in January 2001, government jobs have dropped by 51,000 -- nearly 2 percent.
    SUO, as a small business owner you should recognize that labor is one component on the liability of the balance sheet. One way to reduce the cost of labor is to contract out some services. This might not be an option for a small business. However, it is for gov't. But, eliminating jobs does not necessarily reduce the amount of gov't spending if the contracts cost more than the labor did. Perhaps, in some cases the gov't savings is greater than the costs. But, when the contracts are to Haliburton and other crony friends you shouldn't be so sure. Also, this reduction in jobs does not include the military expenditures, Right? It also doesn't include expenditures and jobs created under Homeland Security, I would guess, along with classified spending on intelligence agencies. (I was going to check but you did not provide a Link?) The point is gov't spending has increased since 2001, regardless of the job figure you cite. Thus, the reduction of 50,00 jobs is meaningless in terms of the reduction in the size of gov't.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:26:45 PM EST
    The Estate Tax was meant to offset the inequitable power of inherited wealth in this nation, to prevent a de-facto financial aristocracy. The kind of thing we fought a revolution over, and the kind of thing that, because of the excesses of the Gilded Age, almost ruined the nation. It's fine. Leave it.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:36:50 PM EST
    Yep, I agree with you Peaches, the 51K jobs aren't significant in the grand scheme of things, just an interesting (to me) observation.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:42:16 PM EST
    Peaches is hard to fight with, the guy is a walking encyclopedia. I usually use a few "yo mama" jokes and that scares him off.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:49:14 PM EST
    More like a spin than an observation of a significant fact. The issue is govt expenditures not how many "govt jobs" have increased or decreased.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:00:02 PM EST
    Worth noting is that family-owned farms and closely held businesses already receive special treatment under current law. Heirs who agree to keep the farm or business assets within the family for 10 years after death can reduce the taxable amount of the estate by 40 percent to 70 percent. And if the farm or business is at least 35 percent of the gross value of the estate, payments can be spread out over 14 years.
    According to a report last year from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, an incredibly tiny number of family farms are actually impacted by the estate tax. If the current $2 million threshold existed in 2000, as many reform proposals would have allowed, only 123 farms per year in the entire country would have owed estate taxes. The report further estimated that the number of family farms impacted would have dropped to a mere 65 farms nationwide with an exemption of $3.5 million ($7 million per couple), the level the exemption will be in 2009. (Yes, the first $3.5 million of an estate - double it if married - will be tax free in 2009.) This is yet another piece of evidence that the rhetoric concerning the impact of the estate tax on family farms is just a myth


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:13:20 PM EST
    so SUO's plan is to keep flinging it at the wall and hope soemthing sticks. What a waste of time

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#35)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:14:50 PM EST
    SUO,
    Since Bush took office in January 2001, government jobs have dropped by 51,000 -- nearly 2 percent.
    I bet you these statistics are bogus and misleading, since they seem to come from a right wing publication, the National Review, who are notorious for posting misleading statistics. As Peaches points out, we don't know how many federal jobs were outsourced to private contractors, and federal domestic spending has grown if memory serves. However, the 51,000 figure doesn't even appear to be accurate as a matter of arithmetic. If you look at the BLS federal employment figures, I come up with 2,741,043 employed in Jan 2001, and 2,715,609 employed in Jan 2005, or a reduction of 25,434 jobs. Indeed federal employment grew until 2003, then dropped in 2004.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:21:34 PM EST
    chew2, I think you missed my other comment.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#37)
    by cpinva on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:42:09 PM EST
    sarcastic, there plenty of actual facts to support both sides of the issue, without bringing in the hogwash propaganda of conservative "think tanks". what all parties like to ignore is this: absent the estate tax, and the "stepped-up" basis in inherited property, wealthy people will pay taxes on higher gains, when that property is eventually disposed of. as noted by the taxprofblog, what are the odds of being able to support any basis in property acquired 50 or 100 years ago? while the estate tax isn't a huge revenue generator, it's absence will be felt by the rest of us, in the form of higher taxes, fewer services or more debt. there is no getting around that basic economic fact. i find it amusing that so many people, who have a better chance of being hit by lightening and a mack truck, simultaneously, than they do of ever having their estates taxed, are so up in arms over this. give credit to the GOP, for convincing these people it might just adversely impact them.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:47:48 PM EST
    cpniva, good post. the dream of getting unimaginably wealthy, no matter how infintesimal the chances, still informs too much of the American subconscious -- white it's certainly consciously there, the sub is where the real damage goes on.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:05:56 PM EST
    cpinva, conservative hogwash propaganda it may well be, but, if so, then the quote from the American Prospect preceding my comment is liberal hogwash propaganda and needed some balance.
    The American Prospect was founded in 1990 as an authoritative magazine of liberal ideas, committed to a just society, an enriched democracy, and effective...
    All that nonsense aside, I agree with most of what you write except the sad sack belief that most of us have "a better chance of being hit by lightening and a mack truck, simultaneously, than they do of ever having their estates taxed." RE has about tripled in value over the past 8 years here in LA. Dadler, you live in CA, is it really unimaginable to you that you could own a home, stocks, car, 401K, etc., that might be worth $2 million+ some day? Aren't you the one who berates us TL'rs for not using our "goddamn free American imagination?"

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#40)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:19:51 PM EST
    So what if Dadler owns that much? After he's dead he can't spend it and his kids didn't earn it. Surely that money should go to social programs for kids who didn't choose their parents as wisely.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:55:08 PM EST
    Surely that money should go to social programs for kids who didn't choose their parents as wisely.
    Why wait till they're dead, Sailor? Why not just take the wealth from those parents who's children did choose wisely and give it to those who didn't until everyone's got the same amount? And then do it again and again every year in case someone has more than the next guy? Really, you can't be serious that a parent shouldn't be able to give to his children his own belongings?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:40:55 PM EST
    Sarc, Sure I can imagine it, but it wouldn't change my mind. Also, I have no material jones really. I don't care about things that much, even if you asked me today if I needed something there's no thing I'd really need. I don't care if I ever own a house, or own a nice car, or wear expensive clothes. The older I get, the fewer things I want or desire. Look, the estate tax is just a non-issue to me. It taxes the wealthiest among us. Could it be a little more flexible at the lower margin in certain cases?...of course. That's called making it better, not getting rid of it or gutting it. And if you're actually worth two millin in SoCal, you're STILL top one-tenth of one percent. Stop complaining. You sound like my agents, who have no idea how anyone not wealthy lives. You're not suffering, nor is your family. Period. Inconvenienced? Yep. Unfairly burdened? Nope. Not close. As for the redistribution of wealth argument, the wealthy are the beneficiaries of redistribution UP from the lower economic classes FAR more than the poor are given in return. How do you think wealth is accumluated in the first place? You have to want to keep it for yourself.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#43)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:53:18 PM EST
    Isn't 57 votes enough to pass a bill if it's voted on? Why doesn't TL or the AP call this what it is...a fillibuster? Am I missing something? Doesn't this only mean that republicans will try this again in September so it becomes a campaign issue?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#44)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:02:23 PM EST
    SUO,
    cpinva, conservative hogwash propaganda it may well be, but, if so, then the quote from the American Prospect preceding my comment is liberal hogwash propaganda and needed some balance.
    The National Review is notorious for misleading stats. The American Prospect, though liberal, is notorious for accurate and honest stats. That's a big difference. I challenge you to show the stats at the American Prospect are misleading. While I could show right off the bat that the stat you citred from the National Review was suspect.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:21:55 PM EST
    It's the timing more than anything. Just watched the "Baghdad ER" documentary on HBO...men and women putting there arses on the line every day for peanuts. And somehow the tax on 2 million dollar inheritences is on the radar? Lets get our fellow Americans out of that senseless bloodbath, tackle our other more pressing domestic concerns, then work shrinking the government and cutting taxes. Any congressman with the gaul to be spending their day working to repeal the estate tax, ban gay marriage, or ban flag burning should be ousted from office...by revolt if necessary. It's sick in the head.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:09:08 PM EST
    People keep talking about shrinking government. How about more effective government? The size of the EPA isn't as relevant as how effective it is in protecting the environment. The size of FEMA isn't as important as how effective it is in responding to disaster. The problem we have in this country isn't simply the size of government, it's the fact that it doesn't work for the people and isn't "a value" to the American people. Billions and billions are being spent on the Military-Industrial complex: all of it to benefit the wealthy elite in this country. If you want to start cutting government and making government more accountable, take all of the Agencies in Washington and then make their leadership elected officials rather than Party Cronies. The power of the Executive Branch is what's out of control (amongst a lot of other things). But be prepared for more of the same...nothing is going to stop giveaways to the rich. Nothing has stopped it for the past 50 years where the wealthiest have seen their income taxes fall 60-70% even BEFORE they employ their tax avoidance strategies.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#47)
    by cpinva on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:33:35 PM EST
    first off, i agree with kdog, congress has far more important issues to deal with than one that only affects 2% or fewer of all estates in the country. before worrying whether or not paris hilton has enough money to spend lavishly on who knows what, how about sparing a few moments for the war in iraq, the iran situation, etc, etc, etc. that the dems haven't jumped all over this once again shows they need new leadership. they should have agressively attacked the repubs for being in the back pocket of super rich people, to the detriment of the rest of us. i would have been all over them. of course, my wife complains that i'm wayyyyyyyyyyy too competative. geez, those estate taxes might just pay to have all vehicles in iraq properly armored, or all soldiers so as well. instead, they want to make sure paris and her buds won't be worrying about the cost of their next soire'. i would agree that the base might need to be raised a bit, to account for inflation. but other than that, leave it alone.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:36:51 AM EST
    How can you tell someone "you are worth two million stop complaining?". Wealth, as I am sure you can imagine is hard to come by. Not everyone who has a net worth over a million had a silver spoon in their arse at birth and had to work very hard to achieve their financial success. Would you tell someone in the middle class to shut up and stop complaining because statistically they are better off than 80% of the world? Paying higher taxes is a high class problem, no question. But some of us have spent our lives building businesses to create our situation and while I never complain about taxes I find it unfair to tell someone not to complain about them because they have a high balance sheet.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:07:27 AM EST
    JLV...I would hope even the most overtaxed millionaires would also see this is not something congress should be spending their time on, with everything else going on. Everybody has some gripe, with millionaires it's taxes. Everybody has the right to complain, I just find it a bit crass for the millionaire's lobby to be doing the hard push for the repeal of this tax at this juncture. In fact, bringing it up now probably hurt their cause. Every non-millionaire, who may have been convinced of the need to increase the threshold if the timing were better, now has a bad taste in their mouth about it. I sure do.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:34:50 AM EST
    Why wait till they're dead, Sailor? Why not just take the wealth from those parents who's children did choose wisely and give it to those who didn't until everyone's got the same amount?
    that's a pretty stupid twisting of my words, but SOP for wrongwingers.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:07:24 AM EST
    Kdog, I am with you but at the end of the day, those of us at the bottom of the upper end of the wealthy hurt more from the taxes than those who are at the middle and top end. I am not asking for a repeal, simply a revision. There are a lot more millionaires today than 20-50 years ago and it is not apples to apples comparing a millionaire of today with a millionaire of 1980. I am with the American Prospect on this and believe the estate tax should be reinstated fully with a revision to include a review of the bottom. I really don't hate taxes, I love the social programs they fund (hate the war and defense spending) and I also believe that those who have benefitted from a capitalist system more, should pay more. I just think there needs to be an adjustment as it is much easier to become a millionaire today (especially with property in your net worth) than it was 20-30 years ago. And I know that I am in the 1% of America that is in this group but the difference between me and 90% of the CEOS in this country or the Vanderbilts etc, is in different stratospheres. The amount of interest earned on a million dollars versus 200 million is staggering yet we are lumped in the same group. As you know, I grew up in a family of 8, well below the poverty line and my family received food stamps off and on for years, that and the WIC peanut butter and cheese kept us from stealing out of desperation. So please do not get me wrong, I benefitted directly from social services and understand completely that the taxes I pay help families just like mine. I just do not want to be included with the Hiltons'-Soros-Buffets of the world because I am stratospheres away from that....

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:29:54 AM EST
    Kdog, I am with you but at the end of the day, those of us at the bottom of the upper end of the wealthy hurt more from the taxes than those who are at the middle and top end. This is no doubt, true. An amazing thing about income distribution in the US if you look hard at the statistics is the following. We have all heard the statistic that 80% of the wealth is held by the top 2% of wealth holders or something close to that. The closer we get to the top end of the wealth hollders the closer this relationship holds. For instance, if you take the bottom 2% and divide up their wealth the top 2% of this segment will hold less than 80% of the wealth among the lowest 2%. It still holds a significant amount, like 65%, but less than at the high end. Now if you take the top 2% of the wealth holders and divy up these households you discover that the top 2% of the top 2% of households hold a significantly larger percent of wealth than 80% among this segment of households. I am going from memory, and the older I get the fuzzier it gets. I don't remember the exact numbers from grad school, but I am sure the relationship would still holds if someone went through the icome brackets today--in fact the differences would have probably become greater.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:36:29 AM EST
    I agree with you 100% JLV. It's a shame the Vanderbilt types will probably hurt the cause for the self-made single digit millionaire. I think those types are the ones paying the lobbyists calling for an outright repeal. They won't be satisfied with an increase in the threshold. And the non-millionaire crew won't stand for a total repeal, because the govt. won't stop spending, and the middle class will be the ones picking up the slack.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:44:47 AM EST
    Peaches, you are right and the disparity has grown even further during Bush's tenure. All I would ask is a review of the bottom end and my guess is that we are a pimple on an elephants arse when it comes to the amount of tax revenue that will be generated at our end. Perhaps I am looking to have my cake and eat it too, but I don't think any of us would agree that a millionaire today is not the millionaire of the 70's and 80's. I agree Kdog, the middle class always seems to pick up the slack because we no longer have a government that represents the people. 200 million a month spent on lobbying and I am not aware of any "middle class america" lobbyist. The super wealthy can afford lobbyists and it is money well spent as we can see. Big biz is running this country whether we want to believe it or not..........

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:05:19 AM EST
    I have linked to it before, but it is always worth taking a look at to get some perspective. The L-curve

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:14:29 AM EST
    so those of us from 90-95 yard line, who are considerably higher than those at the 50, but insanely lower than those above us, should we share the same burder as those out of the stratosphere? Thanks for the link.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:29:55 AM EST
    JLvngstn, Middle class is not the top 20 percent. The vast majority of millionaires are inherited. And if you're not content with your taxed inheritence, tough luck. If the wealthy got rid of the waste in their life, if we all did, this argument would be beyond moot.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:32:13 AM EST
    should we share the same burder as those out of the stratosphere?
    No, I don't think so. I agree with you that it should be raised some and billionaires should be hit very hard with an even larger estate tax. The estate tax should be progressive.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    As George Carlin once said...the wealthy make most the money and pay little of the taxes. The middle class does most of the work and pays most of the taxes. The poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class...keep 'em going to those jobs. There's truth in it.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:45:59 AM EST
    Dadler, I did not inherit it, although my children will. Again, perhaps you did not read my previous posts or you are simply being an arse-wipe. I have never sought a tax shelter and believe that the taxes I pay should help those less fortunate (and I do not mean the iraqis). I do not offshore my business to avoid taxes as so many of the big businesses do. If we made that illegal, perhaps the discussion on those of us who are at the upper end, but not at the Hilton level, would be "moot". the problem as I see it and is evidenced by your comment, is that those of us in the 300k+ annual household income are lumped in with the Soros/Buffetts of the world and it is simply unfair. I pay my fair share of taxes and desire a smaller gov't and less earnings per share for defense firms (after all it should be patriotic to help in the defense of your country) and I am not playing victim. I simply asked for a reconsideration of the wealth table to make it current.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:49:55 AM EST
    the wealthy got rid of the waste in their life, if we all did, this argument would be beyond moot.
    Why do you feel so comfortable making such an unfounded claim? I married an environmental education consultant and there is little waste in our lives. Would you feel comfortable saying "the poor should stop wasting their money on lottery and booze" and they will rise above it? Where did I say middle class is in the upper 20%? Are you referring to the middle class being better off that 80% of the world? If so, you should do some research, the world expands beyond our oceans and hundreds of millions do not have even the most basic of needs covered.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:55:58 AM EST
    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#63)
    by roger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:05:23 AM EST
    J- You really have a non-problem. Dont sell your home until you are over 55. Take the one-time capital gains exemption. Spend just enough before you die to come in under the limit. Health care alone should take care of that. If not, go on a nice vacation. At your income level, you should talk to a tax attorney.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:28:52 AM EST
    Everyday families in the U.S are thrown out of their homes and forced to find emergency shelter and a large percentage of the affluent have nothing better to do than piss'n moan about paying too much in taxes and the poor buying booze and lottery tickets. Pick up The Fountainhead again, pretend you're reading, and hope there isnt a God.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:47:45 AM EST
    JL, If you can't live comfortably on 300,000 a year, you are, in my mind, indeed living a largely wasteful life. I have friends who live on 8,000 a year, living a highly disciplined life, and while I'm not asking everyone to do that, these friends have taught me how much of our average lives is completely extraneous. If you cannot look around you and see profligate waste ALL OVER our society, then I guess we see the world differently. If you have no waste in your life, you are truly exceptional Of course, you're not Soros or Hilton, and I have no problem making it more flexible AT THE VERY LOWEST END under special circumstances. That's it. But you are closer to Soros and Hilton than someone who makes thirty grand a year will ever be to you in terms of comfort and ease. That's the truth. I simply cannot countenance this argument from people making even what you do. Your children have no inherent right to inherit anything they did nothing, absolutely nothing, to earn. Inheritence flies in the face of the meritocracy we supposedly strive to be. A decent link to a decent opinion. Have a good one, J, didn't mean to go cranky on you. You just gotta understand, I lived on welfare and food stamps in the friggin' ghetto, I have little time for complaints from people who have NO problem paying for their necessities and tons more.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#66)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:53:11 AM EST
    JL, The poor "wasting" their money on lottery tickets and booze ASSUMES something about the poor you have no knowledge of -- unless you've been poor. It takes no imagination whatsoever to envision being rich, it's all around you in our material society. It takes an overwhelming amount of imagination to understand the life and psychology of the poor. And I've been both. Dirt poor and pretty affluent. Guess where I found more waste and ignorance and lazy thinking? Though I wouldn't have trouble telling ANYONE I saw wasting their money on booze and the lottery that it's not a good idea.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:58:26 AM EST
    chew2,
    The National Review is notorious for misleading stats. The American Prospect, though liberal, is notorious for accurate and honest stats.
    Well, I sure don't know how you'd prove that statement, but I'd sure like to see you try.
    I challenge you to show the stats at the American Prospect are misleading.
    Fair enough. From the American Prospect:
    Under the $3.5 million exemption, the number of family-owned small businesses required to pay any taxes in the year 2000 would have been just 94, according to a study by the Congressional Budget Office.
    Whuuuh?! At first blush it looks like this is saying that of the millions and millions of privately-held businesses in America, only 94 have assets in excess of 3.5 mill. And that only 94 estates that include assets of privately-owned businesses would have paid the tax. If you swallow that BS I've got a bridge to sell you. Oh yeah, the weasel-words: 94 "family-owned small businesses." What the hell is that? What is the definition of that? They defined it as only those privately-held business who's owner died in 2000 AND the estate filed a QFOBI - Qualified Family Owned Business Interest deduction. So, of that tiny sample, apparently 94 had assets over 3.5 mill. Oh yeah, the Prospect also forgot to mention that the estate tax is computed not just on the biz assets but also the deseased's home(s), 401K's, life insurance, etc. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Sailor,
    that's a pretty stupid twisting of my words, but SOP for wrongwingers.
    Well, let's look at your words.
    After he's dead he can't spend it and his kids didn't earn it.
    Surely that money should go to social programs for kids who didn't choose their parents as wisely.
    ...your words indicate that you believe the state should have the right to, on the death of a citizen, against the express wishes of that citizen, appropriate his bought-and-paid-for, tax-paid, privately-owned personal property and assets, and redistribute them to people who are NOT those who their rightful owner wanted them distributed to. That is as stupid a thing as I've ever seen written here on TL. Dadler, I've mentioned several times here in the past that as recently as about 11-12 years ago my tax filings put me under the fed poverty line. Non-union extra work doesn't really pay that well as you are probably aware. Serious question, w/o sufficient assets how are you going to live when you old(er)? How will your kid(s) pay for school?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#68)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:28:58 AM EST
    Sarc, The shorter answer: I'll do with much less, and be happy about it.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:29:50 AM EST
    Sarc, I didn't say I had no assets, I said the older I get the fewer things I need or want. I simply don't buy into the GAME we're all brainwashed into believing we MUST play. The amount of head-tripping done on people by the financial industry is amazing. People did just fine for a long, long time without all the largely extraneous stuff we're said to NEED today. And people do it today. VW Vagabonds is the website of our friends who are happier than anyone we know with less money/material than anyone we know. And if I planned, as an old person, on consuming and using and requiring as much as I did in the past, then I'd need tons of money. But the older I get, the less I want. Except love and time to sit under the tree and watch the elephant. Also, I agree with Sailor, the estate tax has existed for a reason, that many have seemed to forget. No one has a right to inherit a fortune tax-free. That flies in the face of democracy. It's why we it was established in the first place, to counteract the political effects of inherited wealth -- i.e., to prevent a financial aristocracy from rising.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#70)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:30:37 AM EST
    Those last two posts were supposed to be reversed.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#71)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:36:53 AM EST
    Last Add Sarc, Let me put it this way: the greater community at large (the country) DOES have a right to tax that inheritence progressively. Not take all of it, obviously, but certainly a fair share. The free country which made that fortune possible DESERVES a fair share of inherited wealth as much as, if not MORE than, children who did nothing to acquire that wealth other than being lucky at birth.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:40:43 AM EST
    Dadler, and I'd argue that in a democracy no one should have the power to take or dispose of a citizen's rightfully-owned personal property against that citizen's wishes, but I guess that's the difference between the left and the right. I'd also argue, again, that $2 mill is far, far from "unimaginable wealth" and/or a "financial aristocracy" and far, far removed from the original intent of the tax - but that's been done to death here already. Regarding old age, I've basically given up on expecting anything significant from SS, are you counting on it?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#73)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:45:40 AM EST
    JL, Would you tell someone in the middle class to shut up and stop complaining because statistically they are better off than 80% of the world? That's the quote I mis-read, and I apologize -- I missed the "world" on the last line. Having lived with third-world refugees, under the same roof, I know how much of the world lives, we're completely on the same page there. As we are on most of this. Above, K-Dog made a great comment about the self-made single-digit millionaire being ruined by the Hiltons and Bronfmans or whomever. Which is why I have no problem making it more flexible at the floor in certain cases. But my comments about waste stand. If you're an exception, more power to you.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:53:07 AM EST
    your words indicate that you believe the state should have the right to, on the death of a citizen, against the express wishes of that citizen, appropriate his bought-and-paid-for, tax-paid, privately-owned personal property and assets, and redistribute them to people who are NOT those who their rightful owner wanted them distributed to. That is as stupid a thing as I've ever seen written here on TL.
    SOU, It is not that I don't agree with you as far as what the state can acquire upon the death of a citizen. However, the above scenario is not necessarily a stupid idea provided we interpret it a little more broadly. In a culture where we rely upon a pecuniary economy, an inheritance can come in handy for individuals and it is something we should all pass along to our children if we want to be responsible. To think otherwise might be, as you say, a stupid idea. However, a pecuniary economy is the exception for most of the history of human economies. Passing along self-reliant skills and a strong sense of community is a much preferable inheritance for most cultures of the world during human history than material possessions and financial assets. Many people who make arguments for not passing along material inheritances and financial assets are, in my opinion, arguing from principals that exist in an ideal culture which is really not that far removed from us in terms of history. In goes along with the saying "you can't take it with you." Under this interpretation, the assets an individual managed to accumulated over his or her lifetime would not become the property of the gov't, state or the public. Nor would they become the property of direct descendants of the deceased according to his or her wishes. Rather, they would be used by the community for the benefit of all in the community (I make a clear distinction btw community and state). A stupid idea, of course, for a culture relying upon a pecuniary economy, but cultures can change. I believe our culture has to change because the present one is not sustainable. Under my view, we will soon have to learn to teach our children skills that our not useful in our present economy, but will be necessary for survival in a future economy as they have been for the majority of time humans have been on the planet. These skills include cooperation and reliance upon other members in the community as well as individual skills to produce goods for the household and community survival. The financial assets we currently pass along will not be as valuable under this scenario. fwiw

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#75)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:56:37 AM EST
    SUO, you said
    Why wait till they're dead, Sailor? Why not just take the wealth from those parents
    which was the opposite of what I said, that's why it was a stupid twisting of my words.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:01:12 PM EST
    So we're in agreement that this is not twisting your words:
    your words indicate that you believe the state should have the right to, on the death of a citizen, against the express wishes of that citizen, appropriate his bought-and-paid-for, tax-paid, privately-owned personal property and assets, and redistribute them to people who are NOT those who their rightful owner wanted them distributed to.
    Kinda freaking me out, Sailor.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#77)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:06:40 PM EST
    Sarc, How is it "democratic" to hold the rights of an heir over those of the greater community? That's anti-democratic and aristocratic. Closer to financial anarchy. If that were democratic, then we'd consider not fighting a war because one citizen/shareholder of the nation disagreed. Inherited wealth created great problems in this nation (tho we're getting back to it quickly), which is how we got the law in the first place. I've said I have no problem making the tax more flexible at its floor in certain cases. But the logic of which is more democratic -- letting millionaires regressively inherit more unearned money, or allowing the country to progressively tax that inheritence -- is certainly not left or right to me. It's just minds at work. As for how I'll survive and SS, and all the other stuff -- I'll be just fine. With much less than I'd have needed when I was younger and infinitely more wasteful and extraneous in my "needs". But for those who want to spend their best days working their asses off around the clock like Americans do, sitting in crappy commutes, mortgaged to the hilt, with next to no vacation time and benefits, wondering where all their free time went, when their kids got so old, never living in the moment, stockpiling for a retirement that's been created for you by those who will profit from it, well, I certainly think they should be free to do so. I probably won't. Note I said probably. I'm as weak as anyone, and you never know, I may be in slacks and a sportshirt in the rec room at Lawrence Welk Village sooner than anyone. Ahem.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:17:19 PM EST
    Dadler, all good except that it's not the rights of the heir I'm concerned with, it's the rights of the citizen property owner - the old guy that's singing the getting ready to die rag.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:17:47 PM EST
    Peaches, Your take is much appreciated. I agree we have to change, transform, go back in certain ways to go forward. We've knocked it around in the past about education and the like, just wanted you to know I value your posts and perspective. We needs it, baby.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#80)
    by roy on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:21:18 PM EST
    Dadler,
    The free country which made that fortune possible DESERVES a fair share of inherited wealth
    I'm a little axious at the notion of the government deciding who deserves what, especially when on party isn't able to argue his side without a ouija board. If it hinges on "fair share" in your ideology, maybe you could define that term for me? Not to put words in your mouth, but merely to illustrate my confusion: If Grandpa Rockefeller paid X% of the taxes collected by the government during his life, and recieved X% of the benefit from government spending, did the public get exactly its fair share of his wealth? Or maybe's it's if he paid X% of the taxes and controls X% of the wealth?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#81)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:23:37 PM EST
    Sarc, I saw that guy this morning. I was looking in the mirror.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#82)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:27:08 PM EST
    Oh, Peaches, I wasn't ignoring your post, it's just that it took me alot more time to digest than many of the others. For me, when the oil runs out, I'll be the first one banging at your door to learn how to grow my own food.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#83)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:35:20 PM EST
    Roy, Inherited wealth is the specific issue here. Should people who did nothing to earn that money gain disproportionately at the inequitable expense of the larger community, the nation? As for Rockefeller, no, in proportion to his fortune and what HE gained from it, and the nation's tilted system in the favor of wealth, the benefit to the larger community still doesn't come close. Not when you consider paying a tax NEVER caused any burden to him, never financially and especially not physically (as in it would impact basic necessities). For those who make the least, every penny in tax hurts, tangibly. The Estate Tax is a small, and not even that effective (if you look at the power of inherited wealth today), but it is hardly unfair or a burden. For almost a century this specific tax has existed to serve a purpose we all seem to be forgetting. To counter the effects of inherited wealth on the levers of political power. To keep our free nation from becoming an aristocracy of money.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#84)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:35:27 PM EST
    Dadler, Thanks. I value your opinion also and your mother is right about Waldorf. Sarc, If you come knockin' on my door, I'm going to put you to work. ;)

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#85)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:32:59 PM EST
    Peaches, You have a good memory with the Waldorf issue? I just hope we can afford it.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#86)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:21:39 PM EST
    SUO, stop twisting my words and moving the goal posts. You equated my args with stealing from you while you were alive. before you twist my words again, you owe me an apology. As fas as useless gets inheriting their parent's wealth ... look no farther than paris hilton, (who has served more men than the Paris Hilton) to understand why wealth shouldn't be inherited. Aside from the snark, I think a million dollars is enough to ensure your kids won't have to stand in line for food stamps. Why not redistribute the rest of the wealth and give someone else a chance?

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:31:41 PM EST
    Dadler, are you an idiot or a poor reader? Go back and read my posts, as far as wealthy being wasteful provide some proof or crawl back into your whiney hole.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:33:14 PM EST
    Fine, I applogize. So we're in agreement that this is not twisting your words?
    your words indicate that you believe the state should have the right to, on the death of a citizen, and against the express wishes of that citizen, appropriate his bought-and-paid-for, tax-paid, privately-owned personal property and assets, and redistribute them to people who are NOT those who their rightful owner wanted them distributed to.


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#89)
    by chew2 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:34:18 PM EST
    SUO,
    Oh yeah, the weasel-words: 94 "family-owned small businesses." What the hell is that? What is the definition of that? They defined it as only those privately-held business who's owner died in 2000 AND the estate filed a QFOBI - Qualified Family Owned Business Interest deduction. So, of that tiny sample, apparently 94 had assets over 3.5 mill.
    Those who attack the estate tax claim it hurts the heirs of small business owners who die owning an active business. In fact it hardly affects them. I see nothing deceptive about the CBO definition of small businesses. Using the QFOBI to define an active small business is the best method available and does not understate the number that are affected by the estate tax. In fact the vast majority of small businesses are quite small and file no estate tax returns. Yet the average size of a QFOBI estate is larger than the average estate filing a return. So 94 small family businesses is most probably an accurate estimte.
    In 2000, estates that claimed the QFOBI deduction were larger than a typical estate: their average value was $3.1 million (compared with $2.0 million for all estates filing returns), and their median value was $1.3 million (com- pared with $1.1 million for all estates).
    The CBO study has been backed up by other studies:
    The Tax Policy Center uses a definition for small businesses and farms that includes all businesses and farms with assets worth up to $5 million. Under this definition, the Tax Policy Center estimates that under current law in 2011 -- that is, with a $1 million exemption and a 55 percent top rate -- there would be 760 taxable estates that year in which a small farm or business comprises a majority of the estate. With a $2 million exemption, there would be only 210 estates nationally where a small farm or business represented more than half of the value of the estate. With a $3.5 million exemption, only 50 taxable estates in the country in 2011 would have small business or farm assets that represent a majority of the estate.
    Preserving the Estate Tax
    Family owned farms and small businesses already receive "especially generous treatment" under the estate tax.16 Federal law allows those who inherit farms and small businesses to take advantage of several special provisions, including higher exemptions and the ability to pay estate taxes over several years. Indeed, the American Farm Bureau Federation, an advocate of estate tax repeal, acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes,17 and that was under the 2001 estate tax exemption level of $1 million.


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#90)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:36:07 PM EST
    As to your first point, please clearly demonstrate or list what is wasteful. I would love to see that list.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:50:54 PM EST
    I cannot believe the stereotypes here. Paris Hilton as the example of all those who inherit. rich people waste. If you are well off, you have never been poor. If it was Mike Tyson is the rep for all black people you would be up in arms. For shame on the lot of ya. I would go compassionate conservative but I still think they are worse.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:01:06 PM EST
    The Tax Policy Center uses a definition for small businesses and farms that includes all businesses and farms with assets worth up to $5 million. Under this definition...
    Exactly my point. The Am Prospect, instead of discussing how the tax would affect all privately-held businesses, used a "definition," similar to the Tax Policy Center, that is not an accurate representation of all privately-held businesses. People read the snippets of the reports, like the quote we're discussing, and, not understanding that the reports are about only a selected sub-group of the privately-held businesses, and not the entirety, don't know that the report is not representative of the whole. And, as I said above, in our discussion of the Am Prospect article, it forgot to mention that privately-held business assets are but one of a whole host of assets considered when the estate taxes are computed. Just because your privately-held business assets won't qualify you for the tax, doesn't mean that those assets along with the rest of your personal assets won't land you in the liquidating assets to pay the estate tax category.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#93)
    by chew2 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:11:37 PM EST
    SUO
    only a selected sub-group of the privately-held businesses, and not the entirety, don't know that the report is not representative of the whole.
    No. The CBO report has approximated the "entirety" of family held active businesses which are affected by the estate tax. There is no better data on the "whole" universe. Most family businesses are very small.
    Just because your privately-held business assets won't qualify you for the tax, doesn't mean that those assets along with the rest of your personal assets won't land you in the liquidating assets to pay the estate tax category.
    Read the CBO report carefully. As I read it very few family businesses would have to liquidate any significant assets to pay the estate tax under the $3.5 million exemption regime. In year 2000, with only a $1 million dollar exemption, one third of those 94 family businesses would have to liquidate any fixed business assets to pay the tax, or 31 families. Of the general universe of estate tax payers in 2000 only 5% of those would have to liqidate any non-liquid (cash, stock or bonds) assets to pay their estate tax bill. The CBO concluded:
    The large proportion of wealth held as liquid assets relative to the effective tax rate suggests that many estates may have been able to pay their estate taxes without liquidating business assets or personal residences (which constituted 22 percent and 7 percent, respectively, of the wealth of all estates filing returns).


    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#94)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:17:37 PM EST
    I cannot believe the stereotypes here. Paris Hilton as the example of all those who inherit. rich people waste. If you are well off, you have never been poor.
    Dude, chill out, I said it was snark. I also pointed out that leaving your kids a million bucks should be enough.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#95)
    by roger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:30:15 PM EST
    JL, Some minor tax planning and you have nothing to worry about. This tax is for people who do all they can and STILL exceed the limit. What are you upset about? You are not a good example of this tax at all. The only way it hits guys like you is if you willfully ignore the entirety of financial planning.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#96)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:30:10 AM EST
    Roger, I was upset because Dadler made several assumptions and a stereotype. Being a liberal, I do not believe that any poor member of society is reflective of the poor people as a whole nor do I think that the financially successful do not have their share of buttheads either. Replace the word "black" with rich and this blog would be screaming. I have plenty of financial advisement both tax and planning and what I would like to see is a bump up in the lower limit adjusted for inflation. Sailor, leaving money to your kids and grandkids to help with college and a down payment on a home is a great thing to do....

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#97)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:10:30 AM EST
    Let's say for example you have planned for 10 million dollars to go to your four kids and 16 grandkids. That is 20 benefactors to the tune of 200k per, correct? that barely covers college educations in 20 years. So while you may think it is a ton of money, spread out over an extended family it is a great sum, but merely covering their college educations and perhaps some left over for a down payment on a house if they do not go ivy league. I fully understand that is more than 90% of the families in this country will have to start out with, but why should we apologize for our success? For the final time, I would like to see changes in the tax system, one that asks companies who offshore their receivables to still have to pay taxes like everyone else. I have not tried to fight the estate tax nor do I intend to, but I certainly am aware of the double taxation nature of it. I have already paid ample taxes on the money and with big companies avoiding taxes by offshoring we are losing a hell of a lot more money than through the estate tax. Bear in mind, we also pay taxes on earnings and interest after we have been taxed on our income, every american that is. Smaller government is not exclusively republican, there are plenty of us liberals who believe in social programs and social security and a national h/c plan and believe our taxes should pay for that stuff. I object to offshoring and a 500 billion dollar defense budget.

    Re: Estate Tax Repeal Fails (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:08:20 AM EST
    In year 2000, with only a $1 million dollar exemption, one third of those 94 family businesses would have to liquidate any fixed business assets to pay the tax, or 31 families.
    Exactly. 1/3 of the businesses included in the study. And those businesses included in the study are but a sub-set of all privately held businesses - the ones that filed a QFOBI deduction. They did not extrapolate their results to try to apporoximate the effect of the tax on all privately held businesses, they reported hard numbers on a certain selected sub-set. And the Am Prospect article, you know, from which we got the actual quote we're discussing here w/respect to misleading (whether intentional or not) which summerizes the CBO numbers, fails to make the distinction that the numbers it's presenting are not representative of the whole. ...although, as I write that, I'm too lazy to google the actual article, so as far as I know it could spend pages explaining the CBO's definition of the sub-set they used. But I doubt it... And again, regarding biz/home/etc, assets. We're not discussing the CBO article, we're discussing the Am Prosp article. I don't know how further discussion of this will add any clarity... But I still would be interested in your support of this statement:
    The National Review is notorious for misleading stats. The American Prospect, though liberal, is notorious for accurate and honest stats.
    I don't have any dog in this fight, fwiw, it's just that I have no knowledge that either of them are, literally, "notorious." ...although they both well may be - among a certain selected sub-set...