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Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power

As the Administration puts out more spin on detainee suicides, the reality is that these suicides are acts of despair, not acts of war.

Many of these men, uncharged of any crime, have reported that they've been told that they will never get out. Aziz does not know if he will survive what he calls this "compulsory, slow execution."

Still, many detainees also believe that there is some moral impulse that will push the American people to action. They thought that starving themselves will make people pay attention. They thought that telling the humiliating and painful stories of torture or abuse will outrage us. Perhaps now they think that their dying will make us finally acknowledge what our country is doing. Instead, we allow ourselves to be told that these deaths were an act of war and not even give it a second thought.

In the mail today: Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power by Joseph Margulies, lead counsel in Rasul v. Bush in which the Supreme Court ruled that Guantanamo detainees are entitled to judicial review.

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    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#1)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:32:02 AM EST
    It's a war right? So, what other "weapons" do they have to deal with their situation? There is no escape. What would you do? Sit there for the rest of your life? Not such a great prospect if you're 25 years old.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:42:03 AM EST
    Sit there for the rest of your life?
    I can only imagine the feeling of wasting your life away in detention when you could be using your full faculties making explosive vests, IEDs, killing police recruits or trying to acquire WMD from rouge nations (or rouge elements within marginal ones). The ambition of a 25 year old terrorist is a terrible thing to waste. To hear the sympathizers, most of the Gitmo detainees were, in their previously free lives, wonderful family men with children and blossoming businesses in the town market until the US miltary, the CIA or their own nation's security forces blew into town and snatched them up. Hell, not only were they not terrorist themselves, they didn't even know what the word meant. Please.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:45:21 AM EST
    Still, many detainees also believe that there is some moral impulse that will push the American people to action. I wonder how accurately this is phrased. I am not saying this is not, just saying that the way this is phrased displays a degree of optimism in America from of all people, the folks we are treating terribly. (Other ways of phrasing this might be "shame the American people", or "martyr themselves", or "push the World to act on their behalf".)

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:47:05 AM EST
    Why do we freely accept that these detainees committed suicide. When I read that we returned the bodies without organs and refused to return the organs upon request, I stopped believing in the suicide explanation.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:56:17 AM EST
    Jade - Have a citation for this (?) :
    When I read that we returned the bodies without organs and refused to return the organs upon request, I stopped believing in the suicide explanation.


    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 09:04:21 AM EST
    What would the response of the wrong wingers be if American soldiers were held by an enemy in deplorable conditions for extended times such that they started to commit suicide?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#7)
    by Punchy on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 09:14:24 AM EST
    Why do we freely accept that these detainees committed suicide. When I read about the protocol the soliders must follow at Gitmo; specifically, the "30 seconds from any cell" rule and the close supervision so many of the inmates have, and knowing they died of asphysiation (sp?), which takes minutes to accomplish, I stopped believing they did anything to prevent these suicides, if that's what they were.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#8)
    by HK on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 09:17:56 AM EST
    the despair is an unambiguous good
    Many of these men were turned over for money. Very few have had charges brought against them. this is what sets Guantanamo apart from 'prisons around the world.' Anyone who describes the despair of innocent people (men who were due for release) as 'good' in any way clearly has very limited understanding of the situation.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 10:04:43 AM EST
    And this wrong-winger's response is to keep imprisoning and killing the bastards who do it.
    do you mean this literally or any Iraqi will do?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 10:18:49 AM EST
    What would the response of the wrong wingers be if American soldiers were held by an enemy in deplorable conditions for extended times such that they started to commit suicide?
    Well, I for one would be happy they were not being mutilated and murdered, but hey, that's just me. I wonder who is the wrong winger....

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 10:27:57 AM EST
    Pabst - And their responce will be to continue to behead. Apparently that tit-for-tat with no discernable end in sight is quite alright with you.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#12)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    And their responce will be to continue to behead. Apparently that tit-for-tat with no discernable end in sight is quite alright with you.
    I'd hardly call it a response. What is it a response to? I thought it was their preferred method of dealing with infidels.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:07:15 AM EST
    "What is it a responce to?" You're right. Nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Its just because they're "infidels." And they hate our freedoms.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#14)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:14:41 AM EST
    See, I knew you were teachable, or is it trainable? Although, it has nothing to do with our freedoms, and we are the infidels not them.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#15)
    by Al on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:22:58 AM EST
    croc_choda, What part of "just because they are detained doesn't mean they are terrorists" don't you understand? PBRman, what part of "the bastards who have beheaded hostages are not in Guantanamo" don't you understand? Aren't you the same person who expressed the opinion in another thread that even if someone turns out to be innocent of a murder they should be executed anyway because they had other previous convictions? Are you really so thick-headed that you don't see the problem? Let me put this in words of one syllable: You - can't - just - pick - some - one - to - pun - nish - for - a crime - if - they - did - not - commit - it.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#16)
    by glanton on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    But Patrick, hasn't your President been telling us that they hate our freedoms?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#17)
    by roger on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:54:55 AM EST
    If anyone is relying on Americans being "moral", they can just read the comments on this thread. When did my country turn evil

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 11:55:59 AM EST
    Glanton, He's your president too, if you're a U.S. Citizen. I'd venture to say there's no one simple answer, however, both could be correct since I think freedom of religion is one of their sticking points. So in that respect I could have been more concise.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:00:29 PM EST
    Roger - Obviously a rhetorical question. The root of the "evil" is the tribal dementia and blindness that causes people to belive we're not as susceptible to it as everyone else.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:03:24 PM EST
    Patrick - And you honestly believe that those beheadings are solely about religious intolerance?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#22)
    by glanton on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:09:05 PM EST
    My President only in the sense that he has power over me and every other citizen, if he knew who I was, or cared, and wished to do whatever he wanted, he could. Respect bred of fear. Only in that sense is he my President. But then, so too could you, as a cop, kill me just because you felt like it and then say I did something to provoke it and you would be believed. If you wanted to, that is. A big, preposterous if, but an if nonetheless. But this is not the same thing as saying "my President," and you know it. The terms means something else, has to do with faith in the institution. Etc. But anyway, Patrick, I'm glad you recanted on the main point. I'd hate to think you were straying offf the "they hate our freedoms" inanity. It's one of my favorite inanities.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#23)
    by e on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:10:26 PM EST
    Could someone tell me why the Republican's are so angry at Murtha for not giving the Marines due process, by condeming them before a trial, while they so easily think Guantanamo is ok. There seems to be a profound hypocricy.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:18:01 PM EST
    To hear the sympathizers, most of the Gitmo detainees were, in their previously free lives, wonderful family men with children and blossoming businesses in the town market until the US miltary, the CIA or their own nation's security forces blew into town and snatched them up. Hell, not only were they not terrorist themselves, they didn't even know what the word meant.
    Hey croc...your guess is as good as mine, or anybody elses. Bottom line, we don't know what each detainee did to end up in Gitmo, until they get some due process. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of freedom, justice, and the "old" American way than err on the side of Kafka-esque tyranny.

    Enemy combatants are normally not charged with crimes, and they are held for the duration of the conflict. What is it that demands special treatment for this bunch?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 12:42:19 PM EST
    The war on terror has no end, in the eyes of this administration. It's not like a war against another country.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:24:50 PM EST
    The war on terror has no end
    That's a huge assumption. We don't know when any conflict will end, but I gather the left would end it immediately if they ever were to gain control of the Executive and Legislative branches of gov't. I hear tell that's gonna happen in 2009, but I wouldn't count that chicken yet either.

    That's a huge assumption. We don't know when any conflict will end
    Patrick, funny, I had typed almost the exact same comment as you did, and then thought "ah, what good will it do?" and erased it...

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:39:04 PM EST
    That's a huge assumption. We don't know when any conflict will end, but I gather the left would end it immediately if they ever were to gain control of the Executive and Legislative
    The usual BS since the war in Iraq had nothing to do with the WOT.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#30)
    by roger on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:44:36 PM EST
    Usually, it's easy to tell when a war has ended. Unless it's designed to have no end. Perpetual war = perpetual power

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:45:52 PM EST
    I think it's a fact...not an assumption. Terror is a tactic...tactics don't die, tactics don't surrender. It's most certainly a war with no end. If you think the war on terror will end one day, then you must believe the war on drugs will end one day. Same victory standards apply...mission impossible.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:48:59 PM EST
    "Thats a huge assumption." Yeah, a huge assumption that was first stated publicly practically verbatim by Bush. And Im guessing the awed silence from you guys at the time was deafening. After all, he's the decider-er.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:51:38 PM EST
    Also, perpetual war = perpetual suspension of democracy.

    Ok, theoretically, if terrorism will never end and you have incarcerated some who you reasonably believe to be enemy combatants, and you reasonably believe that if they were released they would continue to be enemy combatants, ie., they'll try to kill you, what do you do?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:03:26 PM EST
    Perhaps the lesson here is that the desire to blow oneself up and kill as many people as possible in the act, carries consequences. The left seem to adhere to the "all's fair" rule in war, as long as you happen to be a barbaric, sub-human killer. Those fulfilling that noble calling are martys or freedom fighters. American troops trying to stop them are guilty of causing despair and hopelessness, leading even to suicide. Of course what no one seems to mention is the number of these nuts trying to commit suicide in the first place. Evidently the left is offended by the fact that these gentle jihadists who quietly hanged themselves didn't succeed in taking a number of innocent people with them. Maybe the ACLU can sue the GITMO guards for "restraint of trade"!

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:06:48 PM EST
    Personally, I'd rather err on the side of freedom, justice, and the "old" American way than err on the side of Kafka-esque tyranny. I couldn't agree more except in a time of war. Where do you want your illegally detained gentleman transported to or will you jet down and pick him up? We are assuming responsibility aren't we? Didn't think so. Relax, the adults are handling this just fine.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#37)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:09:42 PM EST
    I believe the President said it would be a long hard battle, not one that wouldn't end. So it wasn't
    first stated publicly practically verbatim by Bush
    So unless you have a link to that comment, I'll have to call BS.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:10:25 PM EST
    SUO - The same thing you do here in the US. You try them and incarcerate them for their crimes. There are in excess of 16000 homicides in this country every year and more than 80% of those convicted are poor, should we build a gitmo for poor people who we expect will commit murder? 16000 is 5 times the amount of people killed on 9-11. There is no end to the war on terror just as there is no end to the war on homicide, sure we can declare one but when will it end? There has been a war on drugs for more than 20 years and last I checked you can pick up blow, china white, pot, x etc at most night clubs in the US. So if that war can go 20+ years with no end in sight, how hard is it to guess that the WOT is infinite? And more importantly, when will homicides end in this country? Seems to me that if 5 times as many people are dying from that, we ought to take it a bit more seriously...

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    Seems to me that if 5 times as many people are dying from that, we ought to take it a bit more seriously...
    Not enough rich white kids in that 16,000. Plenty of expendables though.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:24:27 PM EST
    Patrick-So when do you think the WOD will end? In other words when do you expect to be out of a job? My guess is long before the WOT ends. The WOT is enriching people much, much, more powerful than your sorry a$$. Bottom line: WOD and WOT are inventions developed to keep parasitic industries alive and perpetuate the power some, like you, have over others.

    I hear you Jl, however I was trying to get past the mechanics/process of deciding, reasonably, that the guy will try to kill you if released, and focus on what to after you've already reasonably decided he will try to kill you.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:29:37 PM EST
    It is hard to tell now SUO. If i was locked up for 4 years in Gitmo I would definitely kill some gringos when I got out. An eye for an eye and all that.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:37:07 PM EST
    JlV. something along these lines perhaps.
    Suppose a coalition of Muslim countries successfully invaded the United States to overthrow the Bush regime and that foreign troops were now occupying the country and supervising new elections. Suppose some Americans began violently resisting the occupation and that British citizens came over to help them. While there undoubtedly would be some Americans supporting the foreign occupation of America and cooperating with it, my hunch is that most Americans would support the resistance.
    Jacob Hornberger via Arthur Silber.

    OW, good point. I imagine the American response would depend on how we felt about the ruler that was deposed by the foreign troops, and, in association, whether or not we felt the end result of the occupation would be better for us.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:58:40 PM EST
    Sarc. Isn't it just the hypocrisy of it all. The previous post I would think pretty acurate as scenarios go, but when the Iraqies stand up to an ocupying power the right gets pissed. And here is a bit more, this time from Arthur himself.
    No matter what happens in Iraq, we have committed immoral, unforgivable acts on a vast scale. To sum up: we now occupy Iraq as aggressors. In terms of our military actions in Iraq, we are today's equivalent of the invading hordes of the past, those that we correctly condemn and vilify. We have vastly superior military might -- but our moral authority is non-existent. No moral or legal argument supports our presence in Iraq. None.


    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:11:05 PM EST
    This Wiki Article has additional sitations. It was even worse than I though, one victim had his throat removed. Ugh. Guantanomo Suicides

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#47)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:32:43 PM EST
    Patrick-So when do you think the WOD will end? In other words when do you expect to be out of a job?
    I don't know, but when it does, I still won't be out of a job. There's plenty of work to go around, even if all drugs were legalized. In fact, I'd probably be busier. But I thought this was about Gitmo/WOT not the War on Drugs, I won't even go into the difference between the two, one being a symbolic use of a word, the other much more literal. A smart person like you should realize the diff.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#48)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:50:17 PM EST
    The war on terror has no end
    That's a huge assumption.
    Not really:
    Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. [...] This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end.
    Does that sound like an attainable goal? How about this:
    Just a few weeks ago, the president said that "you can't win" the war on terror. "You can only hope to make it "less likely that your kids are going to live under the threat of al-Qaida for a long period of time." How long a period of time? "I can't tell you," Bush confessed. "I don't have any . definite end."
    Later that same day Rush Limbaugh, interviewing Bush, said that terrorism is "always going to happen because it always has." Bush simply replied: "Right."


    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:00:40 PM EST
    Patrick - Aug 30, 04 Bush told Matt Lauer that "the WOT was not winnable." Of course, he corrected himself a couple of days later after his people went into a tizzy. Comes down to what you choose to believe I suppose.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:10:31 PM EST
    Oscar - That's a silly argument and completely irrational and covered with pixie fairy dust. Jlvgnstn writes:
    - The same thing you do here in the US. You try them and incarcerate them for their crimes.
    The first problem we have with this is that since their crimes have been committed outside the US, then they have no right for a trial within the US. The second is that since this is war, with all the normal messy lack of details, there is no way that the chain of evidence can be maintained to the level required within our system. So we capture them, or someone else captures them, and we do what? Hang them? Firing squad? Both, of course, are the historical end for terrorists and illegals.... No. We give them Combatant Status Review Tribunals. The purpose of is to determine if they get kept, or if they get charged with other crimes or if they get cut loose on the spot. Let's review the above. 1. Deemed an enemy combatant. Go to jail. 2. Deemed an enemy combatant and a real meanie, you get charged with specifc crimes. I think, as sailor so loving points out, there have been ten of these. 3. Deemed non of the above, you go home. Now. What about the ones in group one. Are they just held in limbo? No. Their case is continued to be reviewed, and at some point they may be returned to their home country for detention, or even set free. Now, have all those that we set free continued to remain free? No. About 12 have been recaptured or killed fighting us. Have there been mistakes? Yes. Am I sorry? Yes, in the abstract. But bad things happen to good people all the time. All in all, sounds pretty fair to me. What say you, J??

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    "Bad things happen to good people all the time." Im sure one or terrorists have used the exact, same rationalization. And as any good chickenhawk'll tell you, it works quite well for any "collateral casualties" as well.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#52)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:25:15 PM EST
    All in all, sounds pretty fair to me. OMG, That's just so wrong in so many ways. Good luck to us.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:27:57 PM EST
    ppj has been proven wrong so often why would anyone listen to his rants? Shorter: The treatment of prisoners in gitmo violates the US Constitution. bush swore on a bible to uphold the Constitution. Get it? Got it? Good!

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:29:23 PM EST
    Above should've read "..one or two terrorists.."

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:52:04 PM EST
    This Wiki Article has additional sitations. It was even worse than I though, one victim had his throat removed. Ugh. Guantanomo Suicides

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 05:18:19 PM EST
    PPJ wrote: The first problem we have with this is that since their crimes have been committed outside the US, then they have no right for a trial within the US. Hmm, then why is Manuel Noriega in jail in the US? Then again, we invaded Panama just to bring him here for trial. We're a screwy, screwy nation.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 06:22:01 PM EST
    Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power
    Cool, I'm all for terrorist abuse. Nothing like a feel good story to end my day. Thanks guys.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 06:46:10 PM EST
    Dadler - He was captured because it was decided that he was enabling too many dope dealers. Should he have been brought here? No. A quick tribunal and a long drop from a short rope if that is what we were concerned with. Remember that two wrongs don't make a right. Sailor - And exactly what portion of the Constitution are we violating by keeping war prisoners in GITMO? Jondee - Get a grip. Bad things do happen to good people all the time. Che - You're cute when you tremble.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#60)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 07:14:52 PM EST
    The 8th amendment against cruel and unusual punishment.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:39:39 PM EST
    "The U.S is evil" No, just the scum that you're playing waterboy for.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#63)
    by john horse on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:48:09 AM EST
    According to Joseph Margulies's Senate testimony on Guantanamo, the system (the CSRT) set up at Guantanamo is rigged. This includes the Bush administration unilaterally changing the definition of the term "enemy combatant" after they lost Rasul in order to continue imprisoning those detainees who were not engaged in armed conflict and allowing evidence obtained by torture. I also heard a good interview recently with Marguiles on NPR's Fresh Air (sorry no link). He is a true American hero.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:00:32 AM EST
    John Horse - You, your reference, and the Left in general starts off from the position that these prisoners deserve to be treated as if they fall under the US CJ system. They do not. They have been captured... Not arrested. Nothing that anyone can say can change that one simple fact.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:45:15 AM EST
    captured by who for doing what? and 10 out of 700 is a pretty lame record. If they are the worst of the worst, why can't their crimes be listed?
    Sailor - These aren't US citizens
    no, but the people torturing them are.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:52:20 AM EST
    Sailor - These aren't US citizens
    Well that's alright then.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:58:01 AM EST
    The crimes these men have committed include conspiracy to murder American citizens, the purpose for which they were training in Afghanistan. And this has been proven in what trial again?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:27:50 AM EST
    Don't need no trial, the decider did some deciding.

    So the Geneva conventions apply to this bunch even though they were fighting in civilian dress. Does that mean that the Marines at Haditha are off the hook if they shot those that dressed as enemy combatants?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#70)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 01:19:09 PM EST
    PPJ - We set up a prison in Gitmo, created a new classification of prisoners and circumvented the laws with better lawyering. I call that cowardice. You live in fear, so you might call that good lawyering. Of course when the lawyering favors your opinion it is an excellent interpretation or brilliant new definition, but when the lawyering goes against your belief system it is political and flawed. The admin twisted and had brilliant lawyering I will give them that, but it is still a black hole and today's decision shines some light as to its legitimacy. By the way, I checked under my bed again and there was no Osama. There were a couple of tumbleweeds and I was thinking of starting a fire underneath to rid the area of them but I thought instead, gees why don't I sweep them up grab some Murphys oil and control the problem. It worked.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:28:05 PM EST
    Just curious, you afraid to fly? Do you consider fear of flying a rational fear? How about fear of heights, even in a building that is sealed where you cannot fall out of a window, that a rational fear? Because the odds of any of us falling out of a window in the Empire State Building or crashing in a plane are more likely than being the victim of a terrorist assault. Had our gov't listened to the FBI agents that reported and predicted planes would be used as weapons, just maybe we might have saved american lives. Not only did our intelligence foresee it proving their merit as investigators, our leaders ignored it. Now, who is incompetent?

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:39:09 PM EST
    Gitmo/WOT not the War on Drugs, I won't even go into the difference between the two, one being a symbolic use of a word, the other much more literal. A smart person like you should realize the diff.
    Patrick, I can only imagine that this is partisan talk on your part, as the WOT is clearly a nonending situation or symbolic war. My point was that you will never be out of a job as the WOT is very close to the War on Crime, or the WOD as long as drugs remain illegal. The difference between Terrorists and Freedom Fighters has only to do with the allegiance of the one naming them. Terrorists are one name of many for an enemy. WOT has gone on for time immemorial and will continue until utopia takes root, which is never.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#73)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:30:09 PM EST
    So the Geneva conventions apply to this bunch even though they were fighting in civilian dress.
    If they were in militias or took up arms spontaneously to an invasion the dress code doesn't apply. Further, you have no idea what they were wearing when they were captured, or whether they openly carried arms, (the other crucial point.)
    Does that mean that the Marines at Haditha are off the hook if they shot those that dressed as enemy combatants?
    And who says there are no stupid questions? No, it means they murdered civilians, which is a war crime. They should be prosecuted, along with their officers, by an international court, just like saddam and milosovich.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#74)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:46:42 PM EST
    My point was that you will never be out of a job as the WOT is very close to the War on Crime, or the WOD as long as drugs remain illegal.
    Well I'm glad your restating your position. I've never heard the term "war on crime," but agree it would be symbolic as well.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#75)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:02:32 PM EST
    Patrick, just google it, it's a fairly well known phrase. 1st declared officially by LBJ.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#76)
    by Al on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:28:44 PM EST
    For all your bluster, PPJ, you can't come up with a single case where you suspect that someone held at Gitmo may have committed a specific crime. I do not assume anything about the prisoners in Guantanamo, one way or the other, unlike you. And I certainly do not assume, because I do not believe, that the US is evil, or some such nonsense. Don't put words in my mouth. All I asked was that if you suspected a crime to have been committed by someone at Gitmo, tell me what it is. (And stop bringing up the 10 charges mentioned by Sailor, if you can't take the trouble to find out what they are). But you have nothing rational to say. Just bluster and arrogance and contempt.

    Re: Guantanamo and Abuse of Presidential Power (none / 0) (#77)
    by john horse on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:00:44 PM EST
    PPJ
    You, your reference, and the Left in general starts off from the position that these prisoners deserve to be treated as if they fall under the US CJ system.
    You can add the Supreme Court to those who who believe that the Guantanamo prisoners fell under the US criminal justice system. Not only did the tribunals violate US law but also the Geneva Convention. Case closed.