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"They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does?

by Last Night in Little Rock

As our Constitution and civil liberties are slipping from our grasp, we see that Attorney General Gonzalez on Monday ordered "ordered a side-by-side review of American and British counterterrorism laws as a first step toward determining whether further changes in American law are warranted." If you hated the USA PATRIOT Act, you will detest this.

Newly revised British counterterrorism laws, for instance, allow the authorities to hold a suspect for 28 days without charges, where American law generally requires that a suspect held in the civilian court system be charged or released within 48 hours.

The Northern Ireland terrorism courts have a three judge panel that acts like an international tribunal. The rules of evidence are seriously relaxed, there are no "constitutional protections," and suspects can be detained for lengthy periods without being charged. Britain has also enacted similar laws for the current terrorism threat.

General Gonzalez seems to have forgotten that we are in the United States, and we operate under a Constitution, along with its Bill of Rights, which were designed, in 1789 and 1791, respectively, to distance and protect us from the abuses of Eighteenth Century England. Whatever happened in the 225 years since, Twenty-first Century England may be regressing. Without a Bill of Rights, not much protects British citizens from arrests and detention without proof of probable cause. Their rights are purely statutory.

On CNN this morning I heard that the airliner bombing plot suspects were in a closed courtroom for a video appearance today to extend their incarcerations without being yet being charged with a crime. [Note: Nothing on CNN.com about this yet.]

Maybe Gonzalez will call this PATRIOT 3.0 and see if they can get it through the Republican led Congress before the 2006 election.

Our own government is beginning to look to me like it is adopting President Bush's rallying cry "They hate us because of our freedom."

"We, the people" is taking on a different meaning since 2000.

I think it is the Bush Administration that hates us because of our freedom. They want to search us, wiretap us, know all about us, and run our lives. They won't be happy until the United States is a fascist state, of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. Where is Barry Goldwater when we need him? The Real Republican Party died with him. (See Conservatives Without Conscience by John Dean.)

Or, replace "corporations" with "rich Republican conributors." It's all the same to them, and, I might add, to the rest of us.

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    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 05:35:15 PM EST
    Hey, lets all freak out because the Justice Department dares to look at the governments of other countries. While we're at it we should probably also cancel all comparative politics classes at all universities, too. We wouldn't want students to get the idea that other countries do things differently. Ignorance is knowledge.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:09:58 PM EST
    Gabe...are you serious? The U.S. attorney general:
    "ordered a side-by-side review of American and British counterterrorism laws as a first step toward determining whether further changes in American law are warranted."
    There's a difference between looking at other governments, and looking at other governments in order to decide which part of the Bill of Rights to delete next.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:18:07 PM EST
    Oh you're right Ernesto. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights has been or will be deleted. My bad.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:24:48 PM EST
    Gabe...can't say I'm surprised. You probably feel that habeus corpus, etc. has been rendered "quaint" since 9/11.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:50:09 PM EST
    Gee but when the courts consider laws from other countries the right goes crazy. Can you say hypocrites.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:56:00 PM EST
    Uh gee guys when the SC wants to do it, and incoprporate what they want into the law, you thought it was terrific. Now when the Attorney General wants merely to compare and, perhaps, recommend some laws be written, passed by Congress, signed by the President and then withstand a challenge all the way to the SC, you cry like babies. Hope you don't mind if I remark that I find your attitude a wee bit hypocritical. et al - And can some tell me what rights we have lost? You keep talking about them, but when I ask, no one tells me. I'm getting real concerned that maybe you're just crying wolf.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:20:08 PM EST
    et al - And can some tell me what rights we have lost? You keep talking about them, but when I ask, no one tells me. I'm getting real concerned that maybe you're just crying wolf.
    We've told you and linked to them several times. But you ignore them like you do everything that doesn't fit your narrow POV.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:21:08 PM EST
    Freedoms Lost Under G.W. Bush Baltimore Chronicle
    FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions. FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation. RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes. FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation. RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial. RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
    39,800,000 more web pages about rights lost under bush Any more dumb questions?

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#9)
    by aw on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:25:00 PM EST
    And can some tell me what rights we have lost?
    What do you think would happen to you if someone had a grudge and spun a tale of you engaging in suspicious behavior, like say casing out bridges and making terroristic threats. I'm sure you would find out pretty quickly what rights you had lost.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sumner on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:31:56 PM EST
    British Law? Wrong fealty. UN maybe. Or do they mean as the source for the Magna Charta? Habeas Corpus? James Bond - 007 authority? (except with Abstinence Only) - oh, wait, they already have sexually abused prisoners. Perhaps they mean to revisit Sir Thomas More's sentence for his refusal to take a loyalty oath:
    "That he should be carried back to the Tower of London and from thence drawn on a hurdle through the City of London to Tyburn there to be hanged till he should be half dead; that then he should be cut down alive, his privy parts cut off, his belly ripped, his bowels burnt, his four quarters set up over four gates of the City, and his head upon London Bridge."
    Aren't we still waiting on a US Truth And Justice Commission?

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:32:04 PM EST
    The right to a government with an executive branch not composed of lying sociopathic little killer wacko nutjobs, though not a right guaranteed by the constitution - just one expected by reasonable people (about 70% of the population by last count) - seems to be gone as well.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:53:07 PM EST
    edger, thanks, I'd run out of patience.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:54:47 PM EST
    I find it disgusting that the goverment is stripping us of our freedoms. The terrorists are succeeding, because they've put terror in george's mind, and were all paying the price, and that price is the loss of our rights and liberties.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:55:56 PM EST
    Sailor, Me too. Long ago. One more right that they want to get rid of is the human right not to have to put with utter idiocy.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Johnny on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:01:54 PM EST
    rah rah for British law. Now, if we can only import some of their liberal laws to offset the police state that some idiot-wingers so dearly love... Jim, you have been shown time and time again that your freedoms are at stake. Indeed, have been lost in many cases. Time for you to shut up about it now.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:04:23 PM EST
    No way. Not gonna happen. Not as long as I got muh NRA card. 'General' Abu Gonzales, famous Bush 'Butt Boy', will be lucky if all that happens to him is he goes to jail. And don't start huffin' an' puffin' 'bout da Army goan git me. There ain't no U.S. Army any more. As Bush and his AssClowns will soon find out.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:22:10 PM EST
    Hey, Little Rock: it's not "general," despite what Ashcroft and Abu G. would have us think. The "general" in Attorney General is an adjective. In the plural it is attorneys general, not attorney generals. I would think TalkLeft would get this right, despite the idiotic trend to bestow a military title on a civil service post. I even heard Corzine use this the other day. Sheesh!

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:25:20 PM EST
    edger - Government has detained 100s of US Citizens....? I don't think so. The rest of your examples are just as BS as this one.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 10:15:17 PM EST
    Hey why don't we look at that shining example of freedom and democracy that is Iraq for guidance on how to create...ummm I mean eliminate terrorists.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:13:02 AM EST
    ppj:
    when the Attorney General wants merely to compare and, perhaps, recommend some laws be written, passed by Congress, signed by the President and then withstand a challenge all the way to the SC, you cry like babies
    You deliberately miss the point, as usual. Since the UK does not have a well-defined Constitution or a Bill of Rights, how can anyone NOT object to the legal process of the UK being used as a basis for any proposal to change US law in the specific areas addressed by the US Consitution and the Bill of Rights? Clearly it makes absolutely no sense at all. How would you even begin to evaluate the two side by side. You'd have to dismiss the British protocols as irrelevant if they do not conform with US law. And rogan, how is France relevant to this discussion? Why not throw in some comments about the laws of a few other equally irrelevant countries, if you really want to move the discussion off topic?

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 05:26:50 AM EST
    Cymro - No, I didn't miss the point, and you are ignoring mine. It was okay for the SC to "study" other countrues laws, and I include England in "other." Of course in that case the SC can act with no restraint. In this case there is our complete political system for review, etc. If that isn't hypocritical to you then nothing ever would. BTW - I seem to remember that our legal system is based on English common law. One of the better things it has given us... Edger - Freedom of speech... No one has lost their freedom of speech, especially you. The librarians may have had their right to discuss a criminal investigation removed. Can you show me where it says that you have the right to privacy when using a public facility? And do you not understand that freedom of speech us not absolute??? Yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. And no US citizen one has lost their right on personal papers and conversations... As you well know what has been happening is the monitoring of telephone calls from terrorists OUTSIDE the US to locations INSIDE the US and vice versa. The lawyer privacy thing comes fro the government saying that a terrorist suspect has no right to pass information to his lawyer.. just in case the lawyer is part of the terrorist group... You know, like, hey dude lawyer the bomb is hidden in a closet of the Pan Am building, 100th floor, southwest corner... There is of couse, an easy way around this, and that would be a third party sworn to listen, but sworn not to reveal the concersation unless terrorism is being abetted, planned, etc. And can anyone hear show me where a public immigration hearing is in the constitution? We're not talking about a US citizen here.. And that's one of he points you are screwed up on. US citizens have rights. Others do not, on a variety of issues. Like being here legally. So just strawman after strawman.. Johnny - Time for you to be polite, dummy. The Left is keeping you steamed up about stuff that isn't true.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 05:58:21 AM EST
    Edger - Freedom of speech... No one has lost their freedom of speech, especially you. The librarians may have had their right to discuss a criminal investigation removed.
    The only thing criminal about reading (unless you live in China etc.) is having to read such drivel.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Johnny on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 06:58:32 AM EST
    Johnny - Time for you to be polite, dummy. The Left is keeping you steamed up about stuff that isn't true.
    LOL Jim, that all ya got? What are you? 8? Skip the geritol this morning? You can't be serious, can you? Blame this on the left? That's a nice try to divert the blame from the idiots you voted for. Listen-when my personal correspondance is not subject to state endorsed eavesdropping absent a warrant, then I will buy the "no loss of freedom" gag you are trying to pull off. Listen-when I can protest within my 1st amendment rights, with out fear of being corralled into "free-speech zones", then your diatribe will be taken seriously. Like I said, time for you to shut up about this. Your conversations here, on your cell phone, on your emails, on your landline, etc are being monitored. In the name of freedom of course. You may be completely happy with the steady erosion of civil rights in the last 25 years, but some people are afraid of it.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:37:50 AM EST
    "Following the attacks, 80,000 Arab and Muslim immigrants were fingerprinted and registered under the Alien Registration Act of 1940. 8,000 Arab and Muslim men were interviewed, and 5,000 foreign nationals were detained under Joint Congressional Resolution 107-40 authorizing the use of military force "to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States." Wikipedia As usual ppj has it wrong again, especially if he doubts that several hundred of the foreign nationals were not U.S. citizens and, even if they were not, Constitutional guarantees are guarantees for EVERYONE in America, citizen or not. I read an article yesterday about an American-Muslim gentleman was just released after five years in custody with no charges ever filed. We could also refer to Jose Padilla and others, but we certainly can't allow facts to interrupt ppj's ironically funny comments. Do you really think things through, ppj, or is everything so black and white in your world that thinking is an unnecessary burden that would only interfere with your illogic?

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:21:32 AM EST
    Bill - Do you really think things through, ppj, or is everything so black and white in your world that thinking is an unnecessary burden I think maybe one of Che's comments here the other day about Condi also applies here about his thinking being an unnecessary burden:
    She's very educated, and dresses well, but she needs to drop some acid.< On second thought, it's probably too late for that. Once [he] got a vision of what [he] had done to the world, [he'd] probably jump out of a window.


    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:40:08 AM EST
    Edger - I remember someone asking Dylan about acid, and he said that the one's doing it didnt need it and the one's that needed it weren't doing it.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:49:11 AM EST
    I hadn't heard that one before Jondee... thanks! But yeah, it does make a lot of sense doesn't it? Although I suppose the ones that need it couldn't understand what Dylan meant unless they did it.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 10:22:50 AM EST
    Slightly OT, but closely related... The Neocons' Greatest Sin
    Of all the sins that the Neocons have committed, of all their deeds and misdeeds, of all their devious misconduct, there is one act of theirs that by far surpasses all the rest of their acts of omission and commission. ... ...when I look around the Muslim world, the ground reality instantly gives high voltage shocks to the liberal secular in me. I find that the only forces resisting the neocons' ghoulish empire-building excursions are none other than the very radical forces I so despised thus far.


    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#29)
    by roy on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 10:39:08 AM EST
    Jim's much-loved, legal because it's fer terrorists, warrantless wiretapping program has been ordered stopped. Not very helpful article here. Decision here (PDF)

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:27:17 AM EST
    Why not look at the laws in the UK, sets a nice precedent for us. After that our government can look at Gitmo and ask the UK what they think of it. They can also inquire with the UK relative to releasing suspect's names prior to conviction. I think we have a lot to learn from other governments and it would be nice to have Tony Blair come out and say what he really thinks of Gitmo and secret detentions.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 02:32:45 PM EST
    Edger quotes:
    I saw the eventual decimation of the Soviet forces by those resistance fighters and the fateful demise of the Soviet Union, as the world knew it, as a result of that.
    The problem withe thought process of the man in question is simple. The Soviet Union did not fall because of that, no more than did the US over Vietnam. The Soviets fell because they reached the point that,with our annoucemnet of Star Wars, MAD could no longer protect them, and they couldn't keep up, so they effectively surrendered, having lost the arms race. Perhaps him not understanding that point, and certainly by not understanding our culture, he threatens to go over to the other side.
    I find that the only forces resisting the neocons' ghoulish empire-building excursions are none other than the very radical forces I so despised thus far.
    Someone should remind him that if the US had not stood firm in the past the Soviets would merely nuked a few cities and his government would look drastically different.. Or perhaps worse, India would have visited some terrible blows. All in all he reminds me of a teenager angry because Daddy won't let him use the car. And he obviously has no sense of history. For that we can thank the Left's many complaints and nasty comments about the country that has saved the world.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 02:38:31 PM EST
    from Wikipedia (let's not re-write history)
    SDI was criticized for potentially disrupting the strategic doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction. MAD postulated that intentional nuclear attack was inhibited by the certain ensuing mutual self-destruction. Even if a nuclear first strike destroyed many of the opponent's weapons, sufficient nuclear missiles would survive to render a devastating counter-strike at the attacker. The criticism was that SDI could have potentially allowed an attacker to survive the lighter counter-strike, thus encouraging a first strike by the side having SDI. Another destabilizing scenario was countries being tempted to strike first before SDI was deployed, thereby avoiding a disadvantaged nuclear posture. Ronald Reagan responded that SDI would be given to the Soviet Union to prevent the imbalance from occurring.[28] How and whether this massive technology transfer would have happened was often debated. A complication of the MAD argument was that MAD only covered intentional nuclear attacks by a rational opponent with similar values, not accidental launches, rogue launches, or launches by non-state entities.
    While SDI was a disagreement, the Reykjavik Summit led to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which some have claimed was an outgrowth of Gorbachev's fear of SDI. Opponents of the program say that Mikhail Gorbachev's reforms were the cause of the USSR's collapse and that SDI was an unrealistic and expensive program. Furthermore, some believed that Gorbachev's opposition to SDI was intended to encourage the United States to pursue ABM defense at great economic expense. To quote Gorbachev, "But I think that I am even helping the president [Reagan] with SDI. After all, your people say that if Gorbachev attacks SDI and space weapons so much, it means the idea deserves more respect. They even say that if it were not for me, no one would listen to the idea at all. And some even claim that I want to drag the United States into unnecessary expenditures with this."[28]


    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 02:52:27 PM EST
    For one of the best transcripts I have read in a while, read this one between Reagan and Gorbacev regarding SDI. Both of these guys were excellent in the debate and it is worth reading. For those of you who wish to re-write history, read it twice. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/22/documents/reykjavik/

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 03:05:47 PM EST
    Another Classic Comics history lesson from ppj. A "sense of history" minus an even a rudimentary understanding.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 03:25:33 PM EST
    Just happens to coincide with the Gipper-as-savior-of-humanity line pushed as "history" 24/7 by the Rush clones and Faux. Gorbachev's influence is completely negligable; so is the funding-the-Afghan-resistence plan started by Brezinski & co; or the drain on the Russian economy of years armaments one-up-manship. It was all the result of Reagans visionary plan to pour billions into a technology that never worked or came close to working. The Pokers Razor explanation.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 03:46:48 PM EST
    Jondee: Another Classic Comics history lesson from ppj. A "sense of history" minus an even a rudimentary understanding. Yeah. It would hilarious if it wasn't so sadly self-deceptive. It's like the Outer Limits and I can hear the wind whistling through it all the way out here. Too funny...

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 06:13:13 PM EST
    et al - All you want to do is argue about SDI. That is like someone arguing over the popcorn at a showing of "Gone With The Wind." Meaningless. Jondee - I know you get all embarassed to think that the US saved western civilization and you didn;t help, but hey, we forgive you.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 06:37:18 PM EST
    ppj - "Western Civilisation", which Im suprised you can spell, has been around alot longer than and will hopefully manage to survive, the summation of all-things-eternal-noble-and-good, America; regardless of what your personal Library at Alexandria: Fox Spews, Power Line, and Talk Radio, tell you to think.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 06:46:47 PM EST
    Hey, I cant spell it.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#40)
    by John Mann on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 07:51:42 PM EST
    Jim claimed:
    And he obviously has no sense of history. For that we can thank the Left's many complaints and nasty comments about the country that has saved the world.
    Are you talking about the country that did everything possible to stay out of WW11 and would have never gotten into the fray unless Japan got tired of the U.S. embargo and decided to attack Pearl Harbor? Your arrogance, PPJ, is breathtaking.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:40:10 PM EST
    It's all he thinks he's got left; take that away and he might be forced to join the human race. Commies, gooks, towel heads and all.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:31:41 PM EST
    Posted by Jondee August 17, 2006 07:37 PM ppj - "Western Civilisation", which Im suprised you can spell,....
    I'm not surprised that he can spell it, nor am I surprised that you can't.

    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 07:07:05 AM EST
    The Soviets fell because they reached the point that,with our annoucemnet of Star Wars, MAD could no longer protect them, and they couldn't keep up, so they effectively surrendered, having lost the arms race.
    et al - All you want to do is argue about SDI. That is like someone arguing over the popcorn at a showing of "Gone With The Wind." Meaningless


    Re: "They Hate Our Freedom." Who Else Does? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 08:44:44 AM EST
    They hate our 'know-it-all' attitude, arrogant superiority complex, incompetence, corruption and our violent actions, dehumanizing, minimizing disregard for the lives and cultures of those we have invaded, murdered, maimed, bombed, demonized and dehumanized. Come to think of it, I hate that sh*t about the american/western world, too.