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U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non-Charged Detainees

Many of the detainees at Guantanamo have not been charged with a crime due to lack of evidence against them. One would think they would be released. But the U.S. has no plans to let them go. Instead, the military is working with the State Department, to come up with a plan to keep the men imprisoned indefinitely, perhaps for life.

One plan under disussion is to build prisons abroad where the men could be housed. The military says the U.S. would monitor the prisons to make sure the men were treated humanely. Another is to ask Congress for $25 million to build a 200-bed prison elsewhere.

What's astounding is that this article is talking about possible lifetime detention for those who will never be charged with a crime--those the U.S. cannot prove are terrorists. Those that have no access to courts to request an order of release.

One proposal under review is the transfer of large numbers of Afghan, Saudi and Yemeni detainees from the military's Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention center into new U.S.-built prisons in their home countries. The prisons would be operated by those countries, but the State Department, where this idea originated, would ask them to abide by recognized human rights standards and would monitor compliance, the senior administration official said.

As part of a solution, the Defense Department, which holds 500 prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, plans to ask Congress for $25 million to build a 200-bed prison to hold detainees who are unlikely to ever go through a military tribunal for lack of evidence, according to defense officials.

The new prison, dubbed Camp 6, would allow inmates more comfort and freedom than they have now, and would be designed for prisoners the government believes have no more intelligence to share, the officials said. It would be modeled on a U.S. prison and would allow socializing among inmates.

The article acknowledges the "hidden detainees," those beleived to be high-ranking Al Qaeda operatives like Ramzi Binalshibh and Khalid Sheik Mohammed , held abroad in secret locations by the C.I.A. [More on Binalshibh here.]

The administration considers its toughest detention problem to involve the prisoners held by the CIA. The CIA has been scurrying since Sept. 11, 2001, to find secure locations abroad where it could detain and interrogate captives without risk of discovery, and without having to give them access to legal proceedings.

Again it is reported that the Diego Garcia Navy base is one of the places the CIA has secretly held detainees:

CIA detention facilities have been located on an off-limits corner of the Bagram air base in Afghanistan, on ships at sea and on Britain's Diego Garcia island in the Indian Ocean. The Washington Post reported last month that the CIA has also maintained a facility within the Pentagon's Guantanamo Bay complex, though it is unclear whether it is still in use. [Our emphasis]

The CIA operates quite differently than the military, particularly with respect to secrecy of its operations:

...no public hearings in Congress have been held on CIA detention practices, and congressional officials say CIA briefings on the subject have been too superficial and were limited to the chairman and vice chairman of the House and Senate intelligence committees.

The CIA relies on "renditions" - transfers to third countries, often those with records of human rights abuses.

One approach used by the CIA has been to transfer captives it picks up abroad to third countries willing to hold them indefinitely and without public proceedings. The transfers, called "renditions," depend on arrangements between the United States and other countries, such as Egypt, Jordan and Afghanistan, that agree to have local security services hold certain terror suspects in their facilities for interrogation by CIA and foreign liaison officers.

The practice has been criticized by civil liberties groups and others, who point out that some of the countries have human rights records that are criticized by the State Department in annual reports...."The whole idea has become a corruption of renditions," said one CIA officer who has been involved in the practice. "It's not rendering to justice, it's kidnapping."

As one terror expert says,

"The threat of sending someone to one of these countries is very important. In Europe, the custodial interrogations have yielded almost nothing" because they do not use the threat of sending detainees to a country where they are likely to be tortured.

America. From Prison Nation to Torture Nation. If we can't torture them at Guantanamo because the courts are watching, send them to Egypt or Thailand or Bagram or Diego Garcia where even the Red Cross can't find them. [More details here . ]

< Diego Garcia Tsunami Damage Update | One Federal Judge's Legal Quest Against the Death Penalty >
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    It is becoming more difficult every day to comprehend what is happening in the United States since George Bush became President. It is worse than a horror movie.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 09:27:11 AM EST
    Once the rule of law is deemed inconvienent or unnecessary for anyone, none of us are safe. Soon speaking ill of the state will be a punishable offense for which there will be no due process since it will be classified a terrorist act.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#4)
    by wishful on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 09:28:12 AM EST
    Does this mean that it is too late to implement a democracy in the United States? Maybe we should just give up, and try to implement one in Iraq. The chances might be better there.

    This is actually a harder problem than you make it out to be. In a war between nations, POW's are held until the state of war ends, or until there is an exchange. Against non-state actors, there is no entity to deal with for an exchange or a certified end to hostilities. Say these prisoners were granted POW status - when would they be released, and to whom? There is no government which has authorized them as combatants, and thus no responsible entity to release them to.

    What a wonderful lesson of democracy to all of us.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 10:08:33 AM EST
    We're gonna need a bigger prison. Chief Brody

    In response to James Robertson...then why not at least put them on trial? This is the part that should alarm you... "to hold detainees who are unlikely to ever go through a military tribunal for lack of evidence" In other words, we are advocating life imprisonment for someone we suspect is guilty.

    Ernesto, I am troubled by these people being held indefinetly. On the other hand, if they were granted POW status, it would be perfectly legal to hold them indefinitely - as I said, there's no one to release them to. I am far, far more troubled by the Jose Padilla case. Enemy combatants who chose to fight outside the rules of war - they ca rot for all I care. They picked their poison when they decided to fight that way. Padilla is an American citizen though, and holding him indefinitely is a very, very bad precedent - akin to some of the Civil War era excesses, although not as far out of bounds as the 1798 "Alien and Sedition" act. As to putting these prisoners on trial - it's not really fesaible. They were engaged in warfare, not crime. The basic problem is the lack of a responsible entity to release them to.

    I read that today and find myself agreeing with JR (above). I understand that almost 20 guys that were released from Gitmo (10% of the total, i believe) have been found on the battlefield or killed during terrorist acts in Afganistan and Iraq. It's a tough problem and preparing to hold them in a humane fashion until we can figure out what to do is probably the best of a bunch of bad options. It's worth noting that many Hungarians, captured by the Nazi's in 1940, were not released by the Soviets until the late 60's. It's not an exact parallel (except the the left in America loved the commies too) but it's an intereting indication that this isn't a new problem. -C

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 10:56:25 AM EST
    cliff, so now we're using the cold-war soviets as our moral paradigm? come on, bro, that's beyond weak, it's f*ing orwellian.

    James Robertson: You should also be disturbed that many of the detainees are not even proved to be enemy combatants. People are being held in Guantanamo Bay who were kidnapped from the Gambia, Bosnia, Pakistan, and flown to Guantanamo Bay on the pretense that they are enemy combatants. Many Afghans were sent to Guantamano Bay because they were sold to the US military as "Taliban fighters" - whether or not they were. No evidence was provided. In any case, it was the Bush administration's decision to break the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war and hold these people - some of whom are children - in illegal detention. What could have been done or would have been done had the Bush administration decided to abide by the Geneva Convention is irrelevant now: they didn't, and as a result, they have no shadow of a right to continue to hold the detainees in their illegal prison camps, whether Bagram Airbase, Guantanamo Bay, or the prison camps in Iraq. If you feel that the Bush administration should abide by the Geneva Convention in future to avoid this kind of appalling mess, well, I agree: but the detainees being held illegally have to be released.

    I understand that almost 20 guys that were released from Gitmo (10% of the total, i believe) have been found on the battlefield or killed during terrorist acts in Afganistan and Iraq. I'd like to know more about that, Cliff. How did you come to understand this?

    Quaker - By reading the news. :-) No, really, google "gitmo detainee recaptured" and see CBS news: Gitmo Detainees Return To Terror dadler - No, and nor the Nazi's. Duh. If I'd used Roman repatriation would you have accused me of being a closet Roman? Jeru - Uh, dude, the whole point is that you can't prove (in a court of law) anything against these guys.

    Re this: "In any case, it was the Bush administration's decision to break the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war and hold these people - some of whom are children - in illegal detention." Actually, this holding is not a violation of the convention. The convention holds only when all parties involved are signatories of it. Pretty much by definition, the people we are holding are not fighting on behalf of a signatory nation. They don't wear identifiable uniforms/marks; they hide amongst the civilian population; they deliberately target the innocent. The convention is a two way protocol; it only applies when you are fighting a fellow signatory - and even then, only if they abide by the terms as well. You can argue that the detentions are not well thought out, you can argue that we ought to hold ourselves to the standards even thoughh we are under no compulsion to do so - but you can't call it illegal under the terms of the convention.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#16)
    by Sailor on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    Cliff - I did the google and found never found the numbers you did. Maybe 10 out of 202. We also don't have any proof, just these numbers as reported by anonymous spokesmen for the DOD. The military is never a trusted news source, and the fact that they have vowed to wage a disinformation war further reduces their credibility. And did you ever stop to think that maybe if you were locked up and tortured for 2 years with no charges and no hope you might want a bit of revenge when you get out?

    As for "returned to combat," no way to know how many BECAME 'terrorists' OR 'INSURGENTS' (because that fake stat Cliff is touting doesn't distinguish) BECAUSE of their false imprisonment and torture. If the US picked Cliff up and shocked his testicles and rammed broomsticks up his arse, he might be inclined to fight back, too. The methods, applied to the innocent, MAKE enemies. As for insurgents, since the Iraq invasion is utterly illegal, evincing a clear intent to dismantle the country to create an imperium, they are well within their rights to fight the invading party, just like the Czechoslovakians or the Poles when Hitler showed up. There's a big difference between someone who blows up an airliner, and someone who attacks mercenaries who raped their children, killed their grandfather for being Arab in a car unable to speak English, on wiped their city off the map on a hunch or the say-so of a foreign military command that refuses to investigate or even count civilian lives lost. --

    sailor - Ok, well, as long as you hold anonymous sources from any organization to be worthy of dismissal..... Or not. I don't find the number surprising, frankly, but YMMV. Paul - Uh, dude, I think you're dealing with some serious personal issues. -C

    Are we a nation of laws?

    Hi All, Joe Gandleman posted about this over at Dean's World following on from this blog and from my own. This plan is abhorrent. It will not be a prison, it will be a concentration camp. If the due process of law is done away with in this way, then in this way then this solution is only one step away from the final solution. Surely this plan is anathema to the Rights most basic beliefs about law and liberty. Let us challenge them to live up to their beliefs and not simply parrot the Bush line. Let us challenge them to speak out against this horrible solution.

    Cernig, that will be a plebicite on racism. A whole lot of these people are just simply that. Look at Falwell. He's overt about his racism, and so is Robertson, Zell Miller, and for that matter Bush himself. Tens of thousands dead; no effort to tabulate, identify, investigate, or in any way JUSTIFY those innocent deaths. The tsunami aid snub was very much a Bush instinctual response. --

    If you are not worried about the US doing this, read Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." It was written long before neo-cons or any of the current political debate, so it has no ax to grind. Read it objectively and judge for yourself whether we are retracing the steps to an "American" Nazi state. Folks, it doesn't happen all at once--it's one step at a time, and after each step it's harder and harder to step back.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 03:43:23 PM EST
    Thanks for the link Cernig. I think you said it best. "Is it possible to overstress how important this matter is? One of the fundementals of any civilised democracy is that someone is innocent until proven guilty. Now, here we have BushCo planning, and proudly crowing about planning, to take this right away from people (who may well be bad people) that they cannot prove are bad people even in a military tribunal set up so that they could try these people without the worrisome constraints of civil law!" We don't know how many people are being held or where. We don't know why they are being held. We don't know the conditions under which they are being held. Bush is saying that these prisoners will be treated humanely even though the countries that they will be sent to practice torture. Even Republican Senator Richard Lugar has called this "a bad idea" that is probably unconstitutional, as well.

    James Robertson: Actually, this holding is not a violation of the convention. The convention holds only when all parties involved are signatories of it. Afghanistan is a signatory of the Geneva Convention. Didn't you know? As for the presumption that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to these prisoners, the GC actually covers this: in Article 4 it sets the categories of those who are entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. In Article 5, it specifies "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal." In short, if the Bush administration doubted that their prisoners were covered under Article 4 (as plainly they did so doubt) their legal course of action was to have each prisoner's status determined by "a competent tribunal". This they signally failed to do. Until the competent tribunal assessed each prisoner's status and determined which were entitled to PoW status and which were not, the US was required by law to treat all their prisoners as PoWs. This they signally failed to do: Guantanamo Bay is an illegal prison camp. but you can't call it illegal under the terms of the convention. Of course I can. It is.

    That's known as an ad hominem attack, Cliff. It's nonresponsiveness rather demonstrates that what I wrote is pretty much bang on. Smoke and mirrors, all you guys have got, now that the facts on the ground demonstrate the real racism and anti-humanitarian basis of the USPNAC invasion. "Kill their leaders and forceably convert them to Christianity" hasn't worked out all that well. Do you think Ann Coulter has some 'serious personal issues'? Or is she just a racist with a nasty mouth, well paid to spread hatred?

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#26)
    by wishful on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 04:22:41 PM EST
    Sometimes I wonder if folks like James Robertson are really plants used to make it interesting to become educated by the replies of those like Jesurgislac. If the info was presented without the context of the assinine assertions, it would be as helpful but not nearly as riviting to read.

    I thought Robertson had it wrong, but didn't want to look it up. Thanks Jesur for the response. It's kind of like PPJ's complaint that the conventions are too vague. These folks always have a story about why or how they can't follow the rules. But if we are going to be the good guys like I think the American people want, we have to strenuously follow the rules. We are going down the wrong path in a major way here.

    As to Afghanistan being a signatory - they signed in 1956 (how many governments ago is that now?). The Taliban did not honor the conventions in any way, shape, or form - and most assuredly, the al queda combatants fighting in Afghanistan did not. I would conclude that treaties are not suicide pacts - when one side does not abide, it's not at all helpful for the other side to do so itself. In fact, it provides negative reinforcement. So long as the people we are fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq (and elsewhere) don'y conform to any of the convention rules, there's simply no good reason to offer them any of the convention protections - you don't reward bad behavior. As for this from Paul: "As for insurgents, since the Iraq invasion is utterly illegal, evincing a clear intent to dismantle the country to create an imperium, they are well within their rights to fight the invading party, just like the Czechoslovakians or the Poles when Hitler showed up." Congress authorized the Iraq war, which is all that is required to make it legal for the US to engage in hostilities. You may dislike it, but there it is.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 06:13:42 PM EST
    Congress authorized the Iraq war, which is all that is required to make it legal for the US to engage in hostilities. You may dislike it, but there it is
    . complete nonsense and more neocon gibberish. An actof Congress is not the rule of law for the whole world. A unilateral war based on lies certainly isn't legal in any moral sense. But the neocons and their ilk believe there is no other authority than themselves. Yet if the people who are attacked take the same stance they are called all sorts of names and deserve to die. The sheer hypocrisy is just unbelievable.

    You ought to think out your interest in seeing these guys go before a tribunal. They might be found to be common bandits and murderers. Then they could be executed. I know your concern is to get them back to the battlefield as soon as possible, but the tribunal route may have some dead ends. The point is, as one poster said, as did I long ago, that POWs are held until the end of the conflict. Since nobody knows how long that will be, nobody knows how long these guys will be held. You don't trust the US government, so making these guys POWs puts the length of their detention at the mercy of an institution you hate who may or may not decide the conflict is resolved and the POWs can go home now. Sure this is a good idea? Other than blowing off the idea, how do you address the issue of these guys returning to fight us? How many dead Americans are you willing to pay as a price for letting your heroes go? Don't worry, I have a scientific calculator here with exponential capability. Go ahead.

    Paul - Man, you vomited a comment onto the blog, that was the nicest thing I could think to say. I personally think Ann Coulter is a very clever lady who could, if she was willing to work at it, actually contribute meaningfully to the national debate. Rigth now she's not much more than Rush with a better rack. (To paraphrase one of her famous comments on Jeannine Geraffalo.) Why do you commie baby-killing leftist scum always conflate conservatives with Rush Limbaugh, Jeeeews, and Straussian Neo-Conservatisim? Oh, never mind, kind of answers itself, doesn't it? Hey, why so angry, it's Air America humor, in a mirror, right? Pshaw. -C

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 08:43:29 PM EST
    RA I know your concern is to get them back to the battlefield as soon as possible your normal lies and strawman More and more strawmen. The issue is that they could be held indefininetly without any formal determination of their status, guilt. or risk. cliff - why do you right wing morons with s**t for brains always conflate all people to the left of center with Michael Moore or the infamous "left" as defined by RA and his delusional time-frozen ilk

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#35)
    by ron on Sun Jan 02, 2005 at 08:52:16 PM EST
    We should have never taken them prisoner in the first place, these are incorrigible religious murderers. Don't take prisoners, these people are very dangerous and they will never stop, wipe them out and every one they have contaminated, treat it like the disease it is.

    "Other than blowing off the idea, how do you address the issue of these guys returning to fight us?" It's been happening already. Oops, no, those were guys we *did* see fit to let go. The left ignore this side of the problem. It makes it less challenging to form an opinion.

    Paul in LA, You said: As for "returned to combat," no way to know how many BECAME 'terrorists' OR 'INSURGENTS' (because that fake stat Cliff is touting doesn't distinguish) BECAUSE of their false imprisonment and torture. This doesn't provide much in the way of an incentive for us to release them. If they are just going to be violent again -- they are being held as belligerents -- I don't see why we should release them. It will only lead to more death on both sides. If they go on to perpetrate more acts of terror, we will be obliged to respond. Given their propensity for hiding among civilians, more civilians will die. You need a better line of reasoning.

    CA writes - "It's kind of like PPJ's complaint that the conventions are too vague. These folks always have a story about why or how they can't follow the rules." You still got your panties in a wad? I didn't complain. I stated a fact. Big difference. I ask you again, why are you against having the convention be corrected and tightened up to prevent people from going around it? My answer is that I still think you don't want it tighhtened so that you can tell us what it means.

    In the classic Kafka book "The Trial", a man is charged with a crime, but the crime is so secret, that it cannot be revealed to him. So the man must attempt to present a defense, although he is never sure of what crime he has been charged. Even in his most compelling, paranoid, macabre novel, Kafka fell short of envisioning the machinery of Guantanamo Bay. The Pentagon and the CIA have asked the White House to prepare prisons for lifetime imprisonment of people that have never been charged with any crimes. The Defense Department plans to build "Camp 6" with your tax dollars to house hundreds of people in perpetuity, that will never have a trial, never speak to an attorney, and never be charged with a crime. 'That's OK.' You figure. 'They're terrorists, and I'm not a terrorist, so it doesn't affect me.' and you go back to your reality TV show while eating Doritos on the couch. Who says you're not a terrorist? What's a terrorist? What about Eco-Terrorists? Do you own guns? Do you question the government? Do you drive an SUV? Remember, once you get tossed into these modern-day Con Son Island Tiger cages down in the Black Hole of Guantanamo Bay, you have no means to communicate with the outside world. There's no way to prove you're not a terrorist, once you're swallowed by Gitmo. And just in case you need a little geography lesson, Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba, an island nation that your government won't even allow you to visit. So you may want to hit pause on the Tivo and ask yourself - are you more afraid of a couple of muslims, or a government that's just been handed a license to erase people from the face of the earth? link

    As for the presumption that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to these prisoners, the GC actually covers this: in Article 4 it sets the categories of those who are entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. According to Art. 4 there are a finite list of combatants who receive POW status: 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, i.e. regular military, the Afghani or Iraqi Army. 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps who, are being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, wear a a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (i.e. a uniform or insignia), carry arms openly and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Just the beheadings and lack of uniforms screw the pooch on that one. 3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. 4. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. So in this case, unless they're inhabitants of the country - foreign fighters don't count - bear arms openly, and follow the rules of war they're out. I think it would be difficult for the current detainees to prove that they were either regular military or organized militia when they were captured. Keep in mind that even regular military captured out of uniform have routinely been shot in past wars without violation of the Convention; a completely different convention applies to the treatment of noncombatants, and spies and/or mercenaries enjoy virtually no protection. Art. 5 works against the detainees because it basically allows anyone captured under arms to be snatched and held until their status is determined. And even if they were considered POWs, as a couple of commenters and Art. 118 point out, the detaining power has no responsibility to repatriate POWs until active hostilities have ceased. Therefore as long as there's a War on Terror there'd be no real legal need to release these individuals. I don't like the idea of the government creating a black hole where they can just toss people they've snatched. But arguing the Geneva Convention is unlikely to be effective.

    Soccerdad, You said: complete nonsense and more neocon gibberish. An actof Congress is not the rule of law for the whole world. A unilateral war based on lies certainly isn't legal in any moral sense. All wars are unilateral in some sense, especially as loosely as we use that word these days. Our congressional resolution was more than adequate, and legal, in our system. Other legal systems don't apply to us unless we've agreed to them, and then only as long as they don't conflict with our constitution. Congress has plenty of authority to declare war on whomever they want.

    ""Congress authorized the Iraq war," That is a lie. There has been NO declaration of war, which is the only authorization for war that exists in the Constitution. You rightists don't get that our foreign policy is SUPPOSED to be made in the Senate, not in the Executive. The Exec. has Congressionally-overseen emergency war powers; the invasion of Iraq does not qualify, and HAS NOT QUALIFIED, as the preemptive attack Bush said it was. It was and is illegal; it was never approved by the Senate, and if you will recall from the debates, Kerry made this very clear. The resolution ONLY allowed for threat (or force) to be used to get the inspectors into the palaces. If you will recall, Powell SPECIFICALLY stated that removing Hussein was not the policy. He lied. Bush also SPECIFICALLY said that war was not inevitable. He lied. There was NOTHING that Husein could have done to satisfy USPNAC intentions, which from the start have been to DISMANTLE Iraq. "which is all that is required to make it legal for the US to engage in hostilities. You may dislike it, but there it is." Making occupation legal requires a whole host of legal rights by the occupied, NONE OF WHICH USPNAC has honored. The GC is the law in question, and it spells out specific requirements for treatment of the occupied peoples. As for 'suicide pact,' that's hilarious. What were the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis who have been killed going to do to us, send camel sh** across the ocean in hot air balloons? --

    "As for "returned to combat," no way to know how many BECAME 'terrorists' OR 'INSURGENTS'... BECAUSE of their false imprisonment and torture. "This doesn't provide much in the way of an incentive for us to release them. If they are just going to be violent again -- they are being held as belligerents -- I don't see why we should release them." Gee, how about READING before responding? Most of these people being held are in fact innocent, or at least they are not guilty of anything we know about, other than being Muslim and in country. This is the oldest canard of genocidists since time immemorial. To quote Turkish bastard Mehmed Talat: "We have been reproached for making no distinction between innocent Armenians and the guilty. But that was utterly impossible, in view of the fact taht those who were innocent today might be guilty tomorrow." This is the theory of "collective guilt," and it was racism and a flimsy excuse for genocide back in 1925, and it still is now. You lot are on the side of A. Hitler, while the rest of us remain big fans of A. Lincoln. The word "American" only applies to you in terms of geography and the remaining racist culture. --

    Don't take prisoners, these people are very dangerous and they will never stop, wipe them out and every one they have contaminated, treat it like the disease it is. Hey, that's funny...the Russians were saying the same thing about them twenty years ago when we were arming them with Stinger missiles. This is why we need to avoid this policy. "We're basically condemning these guys to long-term imprisonment," said a military official who was a senior interrogator at Guantanamo Bay."If they weren't terrorists before, they certainly could be now." Moreover, he said, even amid the tight security there is significant indoctrination of prisoners by radical Islamists among them.

    Come to think of it...maybe creating more terrorists is really the goal here. Did you ever see how some people's otherwise lifeless, gray eyes light up when they talk about how we are in a "permanent war" which "may not end in our lifetimes"?

    James Robertson: As to Afghanistan being a signatory - they signed in 1956 (how many governments ago is that now?). Not relevant. None of the governments since 1956 rescinded Afghanistan's signatory status: therefore, Afghanistan is still a signatory. The Taliban did not honor the conventions in any way, shape, or form - and most assuredly, the al queda combatants fighting in Afghanistan did not. Not relevant. The appropriate response to a breach of the Geneva Conventions is laid down in Part VI: Execution of the Convention: nowhere does it say that if one side doesn't abide by the GC, even though they're signatory to them, the other side can abandon them too. Junyo: Art. 5 works against the detainees because it basically allows anyone captured under arms to be snatched and held until their status is determined. Yes: but until their status is determined, under Article 5 they are entitled to all the protections of prisoners of war. The point about Bagram Airbase, Guantanamo Bay, and other illegal prison camps in Iraq and elsewhere, is that the detainees held there are not granted all the rights of PoWs. What Richard Aubrey and others are missing is the point I have consistently made: what the Bush administration was legally required to do was in fact the sensible thing to do: having taken these people prisoner, to determine their status via a competent tribunal. And, though Article 5 imposes no definite time limit, it would have made sense to do it as soon as possible, that is, within weeks or months at worst, not years down the line. There may well be actual terrorists held at Guantanamo Bay. There are certainly innocent victims who were kidnapped in Bosnia or the Gambia or Pakistan and sent to Guantanamo Bay entirely illegally. There are almost certainly a good many Afghans who are guilty of nothing more than taking up arms to fight against a foreign invader, or who were simply conscripted by the Taliban, and who are certainly entitled to the status of PoWs. The point is, that the status of these prisoners should have been determined as soon as possible after their capture. Innocent victims could have been set free: PoWs could have gone to a properly constituted PoW camp: and any actual criminals could have been treated as criminals. Failing to do any of this - acting as if the US government had the right to detain anyone they pleased indefinitely merely on the sayso of the Bush administration - is what made Guantanamo Bay an illegal prison camp, and has needlessly confused the status of the prisoners held there. The Bush administration made the initial bad decision to ignore the Geneva Conventions. The bad consequences that follow are entirely their fault. They should have stuck to the law.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 04:14:47 AM EST
    RP Under your logic China could decide that they were to invade the US because we had WMD and our capitalist government needed to be changed. And that would be fine? Also using neocon logic we should not resist. Of couse the neocons believe there is no other law and that any agreements that have been worked out over the last 50-100 years are worthless. On one hand the neocons say there is no international law and the UN has no power and yet on the other hand they cite Iraq's supposed lack of compliance with the UN as justification for invasion. Just pick and choose. So under RP's argument any country can do anything it wants as long as there is a vote by someone and it doesn't violate the country's constitution. Of course these idiots will back this as long as we are on top. As soon as were not or start losing they'll start whining like 2 year olds.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 04:20:23 AM EST
    James, re: "I would conclude that treaties are not suicide pacts - when one side does not abide, it's not at all helpful for the other side to do so itself." How would honoring the Geneva Conventions be an act of suicide? What about the recent ruling by Judge James Robertson (any relation?) that the US must abide by the Geneva Convention? If we abide by this, what do you think will happen? Will Bush have to surrender to Bin Laden? Peenie, I tend to think of what Bush is doing as totalitarian in the Orwellian sense. Maybe under Bush, we have the worst of two worlds, Kafka meets Orwell.

    Soc. Precisely my point. Make these guys POWs and they could be held indefinitely. Send them before a tribunal and they could be found to be common murderers and thus executed. Send them home--lefty's preferred goal--and a good many of them go back to terrorism. Lefty's preferred goal. I don't see where they/you have a good answer other than getting Americans killed.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 05:11:55 AM EST
    RA do you buy your strawman arguments one at a time? If you do save some money and buy them in bulk

    Soc, when is calling an argument a strawman a strawman? Besides executing the Gitmo goons, or keeping them indefinitely, or letting them go at the price of American lives, what choices are there?

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 05:37:55 AM EST
    RA You are telling us that lefties want .... thats your strawman, because it presupposes something either that is not true or you can't prove

    So prove me wrong. Of those three choices, which do you want? Do you have another whose result would be different?

    Jim writes: I ask you again, why are you against having the convention be corrected and tightened up to prevent people from going around it? My answer is that I still think you don't want it tighhtened so that you can tell us what it means. I have no objection to improving the Geneva Conventions as long as it is not done unilaterally, because unilateral changes in an agreement are breaches. To some extent, the Convention Against Torture is exactly what you are suggesting: clarification of the GC. My understanding of contract law suggests that as a signor to the agreement, we should abide by the terms of the agreement as the agreement is constructed until such time as the agreement is amended. People, rogue nations, may always find a "way around" the conventions. Those ways around should eventually lead to the international court at The Hague. If the ways around are found to be war crimes as defined in the conventions, justice may be available at that court. I do not trust Alberto Ghraib-Gonzalez to draft work-arounds. The work-arounds, clarifications, ways around - call them what you will - make us a rogue nation. It's really pretty simple. We signed the agreement. Our signature and agreement should mean something. It doesn't. The rest of the world knows that we are big-time unilateralists now, but it should mean something. The only way to give our agreement meaning is for the American people to insist that we be the nation that we aspire to be. Long term confinement without due process doesn't really fit into our freedom and democracy model, does it? What did Rummy say when Bagdad was being looted? Democracy and freedom are messy or something like that? Fascists can make the trains run on time. They can get the windshield wiping bums off the street. They can incarcerate people with no due process. I think in the long run, the fascists are a bit oppressive. That's just me.

    CA - I have commented numerous times that the GC should be revised to reflect a war against terrorist groups rather than nation states. Problem is, it hasn't been done, so we have this continual argument about the people in Gitmo, etc. The Convention Against Torture is trending in that direction. It also should be fixed But, if you assume the prisoners are POW's, what do you with them? There are no nations to return them to. And, as POW's, they do not require a trial unless they have done something that breaks the GC. They are just held until the war is over. If you decide they have broken the GC, then the use of military tribunals is well established. If you decide their status is uncertain, then the GC calls for a tribunal to determine their status. However, to my knowledge, it does not define the time frame. "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal. If you assume there is no doubt that they are not POW, then they become enemy combatants, for which we have said we will provide military tribunals. You, SD and others, can/will/have ranted that we should treat them as if they robbed a bank in the US. That may be your choice, but it isn't mine, and it isn't the choice of the majority in this country. (See recent elections, results thereof.)

    We've become the Soviet Union..with it's Gulags and show trials.

    PPJ:But, if you assume the prisoners are POW's, what do you with them? There are no nations to return them to. You're wrong about that, of course: and you should know better than to make such a wild, unfactual claim.

    Why are liberals upset? I don't get it. We used to have constitutional limits on the Federal government, but liberals have been all for getting rid of them. Under the Constitution as it used to be interpreted, for example, the Federal Government was forbidden to pass laws affecting local matters. This was done to insure the sovereignty of the states ("State's Rights" for the uninitiated). Notwithstanding, the Supreme Court has said the Federal Government can threaten states, cities, counties and businesses by using a carrot-and-stick system: withdrawing Federal aid if they do not do what the Feds want. That is the reason we have a range of affirmative action programs, a drinking age of 21, and a whole range of other liberal bennies. The Feds don't "regulate" these activities. They don't pass laws mandating these activities. Heck, that would be unconstitutional! They just legally starve states, cities, towns, businesses and individuals of money if they don't comply and do what the Feds cannot constitutionally command them to do. Its simple! The Feds bludgeon other folks to do what they cannot (constitutionally) do themselves. All the Feds are proposing with the new eternal prison system is working the same scam on an international level. So what's new? Having been encouraged to think creatively outside of the Constitutional box with drinking laws and affirmativel action laws, they are merely making the next logical step: go international. After all, there are things that even the states cannot do. Having encouraged the Feds to stick their noses where they don't belong, having championed the idea of a "living constitution", having written countless amici briefs in support of expanded Federal power, why on earth are the liberals whining? Having championed a Federal government with no moral or legal limits (as long as it can force someone else with that power to do its bidding, that is) what on earth are liberals now complaining about "constitutionality" for?

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 12:15:10 PM EST
    And this would be like the Feds now (Repubs and conservatives) telling the states they cannot buy drugs from Canada. Yeah yeah what ever serves your purpose. Next right wing talking point!

    Jesurg thinks there are nations to which we could return the Gitmo Goons. He's right. There are nearly two hundred of them. The point, as Jesurg is trying to hide, is that POWs are supposed to be returned to their nation of origin. (Look up Operation Keelhaul and try to figure out whether you should pretend in public to be outraged.) al Q is not a nation and if we could find a place where they could receive their long-lost brethren, we'd have more interesting things to do with it. The guys (the Afghans, anyway) were fighting against us for the Taliban, if they weren't al Q doing the same thing, in Afghanistan. You think returning them to Afghanistan would be a cozy end to their problems? You can't be a POW to and in the nation you were trying to destroy. POWs are between, not within, nations. But Jesurg misses another point. POWs are held until the war is over. Which means we have to find somebody to sign the instrument of surrender. That'll be a trick. Could take a while. Okay with me. Since it's the way the law works, you don't have any problem with that, do you?

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#60)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 12:21:49 PM EST
    hadley v. baxendale, wow, it's really not clear yet, huh? well, um, i think -- and call me crazy -- that they're complaining about the small issue of imprisoning people for indeterminate amounts of time (if not life) without due process. due process being the thing that separates the law of a free nation from that of a tyranny. i think that might be, uh, the complaint. next!

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 12:44:02 PM EST
    How about the this treatment of a US citizen LINK Hey RA I think we could find the US government. So now whats your argument.

    Dad, you keep missing the point. The issue is that POWs are held until the end of the war. Never been any other way. That's "indeterminate" since we don't know when the war will be over. So, holding these guys as POWs for an indeterminate period of time is in accordance with the law. Now, if you don't want them to be POWs because you just figured this out, they'll be something else. Now, the something else they are might be risky, also, since it could be they're common criminals. To let them loose would be to send them to Afghanistan, their home. That's sometimes called "rendition". You in favor of rendition?

    Soc, not even a good try. Completely separate issue and the obfuscation you sought didn't amount to much. The guy isn't a POW. Isn't an illegal combatant. He's arrested by SA for some internal reason. It may or may not be a bad deal, rendition having been invented by Clinton, but it's got nothing to do wtih the Gitmo subject.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 01:26:04 PM EST
    arrested by SA for some internal reason try reading the article this time

    Richard Aubrey: The point, as Jesurg is trying to hide, is that POWs are supposed to be returned to their nation of origin. Yes, indeed. And your problem with this is? I don't have a problem with it - if the prisoners are being treated as PoWs with the full rights thereof. al Q is not a nation and if we could find a place where they could receive their long-lost brethren, we'd have more interesting things to do with it You're confusing the issue again. The Bush administration has no evidence that the detainees in Guantanamo Bay are members of al-Qaeda. And we know this, because the whole point is that the Bush administration wants to be able to hold these people in legal limbo indefinitely because it has no evidence which it can use to bring these people to trial. So claiming that the detainees can't be returned because they're al-Qaeda is putting the cart before the horse: the Bush administration can't even show that the detainees are al-Qaeda. Now, with regard to the PoWs who are Afghans, obviously the US isn't at war with Afghanistan any more, because Afghanistan is one of the members of the Coalition of the Willing. Therefore, Afghan PoWs can and should legally be repatriated to Afghanistan. (If there is good reason to believe they will suffer torture or death in their country of origin, another international treaty comes into play, allowing them to claim refugee status.)

    SD, You said: Under your logic China could decide that they were to invade the US because we had WMD and our capitalist government needed to be changed. And that would be fine? Also using neocon logic we should not resist. Not at all on the last part. True, China could invade the U.S. if they wanted to -- it would be an atrocious mistake on their part, but they could do it. You're making appeals to laws that don't bind us. The constitution has the final say, and it provides Congress with an enumerated power that allows them to declare war. As for the contention that the authorization for the use of force is not adequate, tell it to Joe Biden. He was among those that said there's no constitutional difference between authorizing a use of force and declaration of war.

    Paul in LA, You said: Most of these people being held are in fact innocent, or at least they are not guilty of anything we know about, other than being Muslim and in country. They're belligerents, which is all they need to be guilty of for us to hold them until hostilities cease. You're conflating the issues. In your mind they need to be guilty of something other than fighting against us in a war. I did read your post and stand by my response: using your reasoning, they would be justified in future acts of violence against us, because they now have a "grievance". We respond and more people are killed because they are a bunch of skulkers that don't wear uniforms.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#68)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 02:23:54 PM EST
    RP So your interpretation is that anybody can do what ever they want. You and the neocons believe in this solely because you feel we are the dominatant milatary superpower on earth. The amorality and the tryanny of the powerful. BTW hows it going in Iraq? God forbid we had to fight someone with a real army. If China were to invade Taiwan tomorrow what would we do besides send a house warming card?

    They're belligerents, they sure as hell are now that we've arrested them. God what idiots the neocons are.

    Robert Prather: They're belligerents, which is all they need to be guilty of for us to hold them until hostilities cease. You're conflating the issues. In your mind they need to be guilty of something other than fighting against us in a war. Actually, you're confused. The first point is that we simply don't even know if they are belligerants - if they are Afghans, if they are even guilty of fighting for the Taliban rather than the Northern Alliance. The reason we don't know is because the Bush administration decided not to apply Section 5 of the Geneva Convention: it failed to hold competent tribunals to determine the status of detainees. In any case, as the US is no longer at war with Afghanistan, it's evident that the Afghans who are PoWs ought to be repatriated to Afghanistan. We do know that some of the detainees are not belligerants: the prisoners who were kidnapped from Pakistan, or Bosnia, or the Gambia, who really are guilty of nothing more than being Muslim in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#71)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 02:33:34 PM EST
    BTW I obviously was not using the legal defininiton of beligerants

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#72)
    by john horse on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 02:38:28 PM EST
    The assumption that those who support doing away with due process is that these prisoners are guilty of something. What exactly did they do? I have seen no evidence that any of them took up arms against us or committed any acts of terrorism. If you can't answer this question, then how can you justify keeping them in prison for life?

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#73)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 02:40:48 PM EST
    r.a., none of us has any idea WHO or WHAT these people are. it's all in this secret realm. by this rationale, we should be holding every possible street gang member, potential criminal, etc., since americans are much more likely to die that way here in "the homeland". my argument is simply this: we are america, we have to be better. if we are not, if we create camps/prisons/whatever, where we can hold people indefintely without due process because we have unilaterally and irrationaly chosen to label acts of criminality as acts of war, then i fear we are falling fall short of protecting ourselves or improving our stock abroad -- or weakening terrorists. in short, to me, we lose the moral credibility we so readily claim at every turn. othewise known as a gigantic, depressing difference of opinion. peace.

    It is amazing that the people who spent $50 million in tax dollars to force Clinton to split the word "is" have no idea how to apply some of the most basic human rights law on the planet. Why don't you get some of that faith based money Bush is pouring out of the Treasury on his political cronies, and purchase yourself a Bible. You can skip the weird, liberal stuff uttered by Bush's "favorite political philosopher," but there's this cool thing called the Ten Commandments. Forget about the Geneva Conventions, that's old law! Anyhow, the TC you're looking for is Article 9 (Article 8 if you're Catholic): "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor." Calling someone who hasn't had a hearing, who hasn't had any attestation of the reasons for their detainment, that's what the Bible calls an innocent man. But nevermind. You can go right back to coveting your neighbor's oil, you asses. --

    SD, You said: The amorality and the tryanny of the powerful. BTW hows it going in Iraq? God forbid we had to fight someone with a real army. If China were to invade Taiwan tomorrow what would we do besides send a house warming card? We've been down this road before and I doubt I can persuade you, but I'll give it one shot. You're starting from the premise that the current day is somehow different than the past. It's not. War is a major part of human history, with or without superpowers. States are still sovereign and they deal with each other in two ways: war and diplomacy. As for China and Taiwan, we would send carrier strike groups to the area, but no troops. We have the naval capacity to take them on. What does it tell you about our naval power that China, a nation of more than 1 billion, is reluctant to cross a 40-mile strait? They've been making a bunch of noise about reclaiming Taiwan by 2020. We'll see.

    Robert, you mistake 'China' for a single monolithic entity that can be ("they") treated as a 'person.' It is not. There are many reasons why Taiwan has not been reabsorbed, not least of which is economics. Quite a bit of coastal China is benefiting hugely by Taiwan's open access to the West. As for war and human history, I see you are like the other neocons, who deny evolution. It's all cops and robbers to you, except you don't have a clue who the real robbers are, or who they work for. Here's a hint: you're a nobody like the rest of us. Bush would happily put your arse in a ringer any hour of the day, just for the fun of it. Another disaster is coming, and it too will be Bush's fault. --

    Paul in LA, If evolution requires that we treat tyrants as equals and institutionalize realpolitik, then consider me unevolved. Another disaster is coming, and it too will be Bush's fault. Blah, blah, blah.

    So somebody has seen no evidence.... From that it must surely follow that these guys were all doing their own innocent thing bothering nobody and were taken to Gitmo and held there at great expense....for nothing. It would then follow that all the guys we actually captured in battle are still in Afghanistan. Since none are in Gitmo. Geez. You guys are something. Let's do this again: If they're POWs, they stay where they are until the war is over. If you want to split up the wars, the Talibaner stay until the Taliban quits, the al Qs stay until OBL signs on the dotted line and lays down his arms. All of which inconvenient thinking leads you to manufacture some other category in which they might fall which would demand their immediate release. But if they're not POWs, they may be bandits. In fact, if taken in arms, that pretty much covers the possibilities. Bandits don't fare well under the laws of war. So we figure something else. Like what? We could have tribunals, I suppose, and may be having them. But the tribunal is designed to discover what? Suppose your bullstuff about their being innocents isn't as you have come to believe, or at least pretend to believe and the tribunal discovers these guys are bandits. By your logic, in following the laws of war, they may end up treated very badly indeed. Well, we can't have that, can we, so there must be still another category. Taken in arms, fighting against us, not POWs, but not bandits, guilty of infractions of the laws of war, but let go anyway. I don't know how you're going to square that circle.

    "Posted by Robert Prather: "If evolution requires that we treat tyrants as equals" File that under Musharaf, Hussein, Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Putin, oh and don't forget some guy named Kadafi. You've got to be kidding. "... and institutionalize realpolitik," Filed under Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Kissinger's secret war on Cambodia and Laos, oh, and USPNAC's statement that we needed another Pearl Harbor to get the ball rolling. Again, do they pay you for the doublespeak? " then consider me unevolved." We do; we certainly do. --

    Re: U.S. Seeks Long-Term Confinement Plan for Non- (none / 0) (#80)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 03, 2005 at 07:42:35 PM EST
    RP People have been barbarians so why try to make things better pathetic. What do you plan to do with the carrier groups? Simplistic neanderthal war mongering thinking. I guess evolution passed you by.

    SD, Your version of evolution is retrograde. It requires that we yield to institutions that aren't based on Enlightenment values. The UN is the prime example. If the UN had any values worth defending, it would have to trim its roster by 80%.

    Richard Aubrey: I think this is the last time I shall respond to you, since patently you're not reading my responses. We may presume there are three categories of people who are being held at Guantanamo Bay. (I say "presume" because there may be other categories we haven't thought of.) 1. Innocent people who are neither PoWs nor terrorists, who were kidnapped and taken there entirely illegally. 2. PoWs: Afghans or Iraqis who were taken prisoner fighting against US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq. 3. Terrorists or members of al-Qaeda or people taken in combat who do not qualify as PoWs. The Bush administration was required by the Geneva Convention to hold a competent tribunal to determine the status of each prisoner. Until such a tribunal had been held, each prisoner was entitled to be treated as if they were PoWs. Prisoners in the first category, obviously, should be released: prisoners in the second category should be taken to a properly-constituted PoW camp and held there for the duration of the war (which is to say, since the US is now no longer at war with Afghanistan, the Afghans would have to be released), and prisoners in the third category may be treated as criminals. You don't appear to be paying any attention to any of these points. Instead, you seem to be arguing, as the Bush administration did, that everyone in Guantanamo Bay is obviously guilty, it's just a matter of deciding at leisure what they're guilty of, and holding them indefinitely until that's been decided. This is illegal, and morally wrong besides.

    Requirements that 'we' yield to the UN...where are those? There are no such requirements. The evolution in question has nothing to do with yielding to the UN, it has to do with 'yielding' to treaties we signed. It has to do with supporting the values we fought for during the second WW. Opposing illegal, trumped-up, preemptive colonial invasions is the duty of any real American. Opposing the torture and disappearing of innocent persons is very much the duty of any real American. The issue of evolution is that war is NOT the answer, no matter how much you wingers want to buy or sell the twisted sociopathic logic of Ledeen. War is not any longer the driving force of history, and neither is 'terrorism.' Not surprising that warhawks and racists want to trump it up, while attacking the UN and international law. Not surprising, and definitely retrograde. You're not fooling anyone. --

    Jesurg, you haven't been reading the papers. Some of these guys have been let go. That takes care of your innocents. You speak of competent tribunals, but if such were actually held, the TLers' distaste for them would resurface. You folks did sneer at the idea some time back, you know. You may be right in that the guys let go who got back in the fight were let go by an incompetent as opposed to a competent procedure. We are no longer fighting against Afghanistan--we never were. We were fighting against the Taliban. So the guys we picked up fighting for the Taliban are going to sit there for a bit longer. The al Qs get to sit there, too. You ought to think about what it means in terms of your views that some guys were let go. It means there's a process (admittedly overgenerous) in place to figure out who needs to be let go. Seems your requirements (the ostensible ones) are met. Now, let's suppose we did get this all arranged as you suggest. What do we do with the bandits? Well, considering this is TalkLeft, we give them a major apology, the Bush daughters' addresses and security codes, and a bazillion dollars in wrongful imprisonment compensation. Your implication that the bandits would be treated as bandits under your scheme is eyewash. Not a chance. We'd hear the howlings from TL for miles. You really haven't figured out that you actually make sense. It's just that the sense you make is what you do, not what you claim. And everybody sees it.

    Jim asked way up above: But, if you assume the prisoners are POW's, what do you with them? My answer? You treat them the way that we would want our soldiers treated. If there is any question about their military status, you err on the side of treating them like you would want our soldiers treated if they were captured. It's not rocket science. If you think stripping prisoners, shackling them for hours in uncomfortable positions, raping them with foreign objects, and beating some to death is good, then it should be good for our soldiers too, right? Similar to the "mercy" killing of the Iraqi insurgent in Fallujah a few weeks ago. If the compelling power was compassion and mercy, then I want to know how many of our own troops have been killed by our soldiers to put them out of their misery? If the answer is none, then I suggest that mercy is not the true reason.

    Richard Aubrey: Some of these guys have been let go. That takes care of your innocents. No, it doesn't. Moazzam Begg is still there, as are Bisher al-Rawi and Jamil al-Banna, and if they, who were kidnapped from Pakistan and from the Gambia, are still imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay, how many other innocents are still there? There is no substitute for due process. Your implication that the bandits would be treated as bandits under your scheme is eyewash. Not a chance. It's strange that you should keep asserting this, since I have consistently argued that the Bush administration should have followed the due process of law. It is the Bush administration who have consistently flouted the law. If there is evidence proving that a prisoner in Guantanamo Bay is a criminal, then they should be treated as a criminal. But the Bush administration should not be allowed to assume that people are criminals just because they hold them prisoner. Indefinite imprisonment without trial is an affront to justice.

    Sorry, that previous comment was from me: I thought I'd clicked the Remember info ticky-box, but the Name/URL fields had cleared.

    So the process that let people go was not due process. I do not believe, not for an instant, that you would support criminal penalties for criminals whose crime consists in breaking the laws of war in fighting against the US. This is TL. You hardly support criminal penalties against anybody. And they haven't been fighting against the US, which gives them an extra ration of wonderfulness. The administration thinks these people are criminals because they don't fit the conditions for POW status but they were involved in fighting against us. There aren't any other possibilities. Conscious. It happens. Nobody is interested in getting their names on a data base for doing it. But it does, from guys I knew who served in combat. We used to promise each other that we'd do it, too.

    This whole situation is new. We now have an adversary who does not have some irregulars, but who is wholely irregular. They have no states. The bulk of their activities are illegal under the laws of war. We have a vocal group in the west who thinks this is just great and who consciously uses and misuses current laws designed for different circumstances to hinder our response (Talk Left, for starters). There is no method for effectively defending ourselves against this threat that will satisfy you because you prefer that the enemies of the west get free play. See Lynn Stewart. You talk about following the law until the law proves effective. You think nobody sees through the smokescreen

    Richard Aubrey: The administration thinks these people are criminals because they don't fit the conditions for POW status but they were involved in fighting against us. Indeed they do think that: but they've failed to follow the due process required. If they have evidence showing that a prisoner was (a) involved in fighting against the US, but (b) did not fit the conditions for PoW status, they should have brought this evidence before the competent tribunal required by the Geneva Convention, and shown that they were entitled to treat these people differently from PoW. If they have no evidence for (a), they have no right to hold these people prisoner at all. If they have evidence for (a) but not for (b), they have no right to treat these people as other than PoWs. All the rest of your ire appears to be directed against someone who hasn't yet posted on the thread: may I suggest you go argue with this person directly, rather than grousing about what you say they're saying here.

    Jesurg. a. They were captured in combat. That's taken care of. b. They did not fit the category of POW at the time. We do not need a tribunal to review those facts. Had the facts not existed, they would not have been caught. It's not like the night shift at the twelfth precinct getting the assignment to go pick up Mr. Badguy when they get a minute. It's that the guy dropped his weapon and raised his hands when he figured the alternative was to die. The circumstances of his capture are the conditions of his categorization. The tribunal, if held, would do what? Call up Private Jones--who may well be dead (a triumph for TL justice) or out of the service or someplace where he can't be found to swear to the circumstances of the guy's capture as written in the EPW officer's report. The EPW officer wouldn't have the guy if he hadn't been captured. If he weren't captured, we wouldn't have him. It's not the same as saying somebody's got to be guilty because he got arrested. If a guy is in a house of bad guys when we attack, he'll be killed or captured and if the latter, will be captured for the perfectly obvious reason that he was in the house of bad guys. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be captured because he wouldn't be there. We wouldn't see him. See? Complicated, I know, but try. The tribunal would ask the question of whether he was in the house of bad guys. Since we got him in attacking the house of bad guys, the answer is pretty clear. Your problem is that you expect the tribunal to have at least the acquittal rate of US justice, when the circumstances of this situation make that impossible. As TL frequently points out, many arrests in the US are on chancy grounds. Ih this circumstance it's more like an on-off switch. As you know, and you anticipate beating up on the tribunals, if they happen, for not having the same acquittal rate as the US justice system.

    Richard Aubrey: They were captured in combat. That's taken care of. But as I have persistently pointed out to you, many of them - such as Moazzam Begg, Bisher al-Rawi, and Jamil al-Banna, were not captured in combat. Yet they are still being held in Guantanamo Bay. They did not fit the category of POW at the time. We do not need a tribunal to review those facts. How do you know they did not fit the category of PoW? Answer: you don't know, because no tribunals were held to show that they didn't fit the category of PoW. The circumstances of his capture are the conditions of his categorization. The circumstances of Moazzam Begg's "capture" is that he was in his house in Pakistan when the Pakistani police arrived and took him away in the trunk of a police car, handed him over to the US military, and he was taken to Bagram Airbase and from there to Guantanamo Bay. No evidence has been provided - literally, none - that he ever took up arms against the US. He's a British citizen who was working in Afghanistan for a recognized charity organization; when the US attacked, he and his family went to Pakistan. Nor is Moazzam Begg the only prisoner still in Guantanamo Bay who was not taken in combat against the US. Now, if you respond to this with another of your rambling posts asserting that all prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are de facto guilty of fighting the US because they were "captured in combat", I really shall be forced to conclude that you are simply not reading my posts, but instead responding at random to what you think I ought to be saying. Now, moving on to those who were taken in combat: the default position of the Geneva Conventions is that prisoners taken in combat must be regarded as PoW until the detaining power can prove otherwise. That's what Section 4/Section 5 say. Your arguments have persistently rested on the idea that the Bush administration doesn't have to prove that its prisoners are not PoWs, just on its sayso. I have no expectations of how competent tribunals would have worked to sort PoWs from non-PoWs from kidnap victims, but I think that a sensible person would admit that it would have been better for the Bush administration to follow the sensible and clear rules laid down in the Geneva Convention than to declare itself above the law and entitled to do what it liked with anyone it held prisoner.