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Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count

By Jeralyn, Section Elections
Posted on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:55:09 AM EST
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Democrats will challenge the electoral vote count in the 2004 election. Senator Barbara Boxer of California has told Progressive Democrats of America that she will stand with the members of the Congressional Black Caucus in the challenge.

Call Senator Harry Reid (D., Nevada) this morning, or send him a fax. Ask him to support Senator Boxer and the challenge. It is not a question of making a claim as to who won Ohio, but of acknowledging the undisputed fact that the election there was deeply flawed.

Phone: 202-224-3542
Fax:: 202-224-7327

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    Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count | 70 comments (70 topical)
    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:06:00 AM EST
    A national party no more.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:22:01 AM EST
    Maybe Conyers could pay attention to this: Fraud in Detroit I guess it doesn't count if it helps his friends and allies. There's also the inconvenient fact that the various allegations of fraud in Ohio are vapor - unless you wear a tinfoil hat.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:29:34 AM EST
    This is great! Glad to see Senator Boxer standing up One of the saddest days of the 2000 election was the failure of any senator to stand with the Congressional Black Caucus. I just spent a week in Ohio and people there do not think the allegations are vapor especially when the precincts shorted in voting machines were all minority and all democratic. The sec'y of state did everything he could to suppress the Democratic Party vote --and this is the reaction. Rather then indicating the end of the Dems as a national party -I think this is the inidcation that some of the so called red states are really blue but they have been papered over by voter fraud.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:37:49 AM EST
    Hopefully she makes the same stand in Washington's Govenor election.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:46:39 AM EST
    The Senate does not confirm state elections. Like so many Republicans Mr. Cayote has swept aside the rights of citizens of states to decide state elections, rights to marry, die and medical treatment. Not too mention ordering local governments to provide certain level of first response to foreign attack but not paying for it. The Republican party has defined itself as the party of no principles and willing to lie to gain power and to use the power to protect the earning power of a select few. How much money has Bill Bennett contributed to ANY charities in the last few years as he sucks out education dollars and what about the partnership of Kerik and Guiliani zero dollars in contributions to any of the 9/11 charities There's a party to be proud of...one that suppresses voters, promotes hate and fear and resorts to just plain lying when all else failes.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:26:14 AM EST
    Well, they just did it. From an academic and social standpoint, this is probably a good thing. It's certainly a valuable civics lesson in how our government operates and, with luck, it will focus attention on the many problems with our elections, including the voter rolls bloated with dead people and the people incorrectly listed as ineligible to vote. But it's a shame that the people of Ohio have to rely on a Senator from California to do this.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    A national party once more.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:06:55 AM EST
    can i just say that the washington state governor's race was run by the letter of the law in every respect? read this for better insight.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:28:39 AM EST
    One thing you might want to consider - my wife is a pro-choice, pro-gay marriage Democrat. She voted for Bush in the last election because she had no confidence in Kerry's ability to run a sensible foreign policy. When she saw that the Democrats were objecting to the Ohio vote, she just rolled her eyes. So keep it up - every day that you go off to tilt at windmills, you continue to turn centrist Democrats off. Makes me happy, but I doubt that's what you're after.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:44:19 AM EST
    she had no confidence in Kerry's ability to run a sensible foreign policy Could you please ask her for me what she finds sensible about the Bush foreign policy?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:54:45 AM EST
    Ann: Such a heated reply! Promoting hate? General invectives are very low. Where did I state I favor sweeping aside, the rights for elections? Where did I say I want to deny the right to medical treatment? Stick with the gist of the thread. You can marry or die anytime you want with out federal permission as far as I am concerned. I am in favor of more states rights down to repealing of article 17 of the constitution. And getting rid of the Department of Education. I would just like an explanation on why the number of votes son't match the number of voters.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:54:53 AM EST
    my wife . . . voted for Bush in the last election because she had no confidence in Kerry's ability to run a sensible foreign policy. And she thought Bush did? It's official, she's an idiot.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 12:11:56 PM EST
    And what a civics lesson it was! Everyone of those Democrats who stood up and made a speech about how wrong it is to fail to count every vote in every precinct, not matter who cast it or how it was recorded, than failed to vote to uphold the objection just showed everyone in America that they are grandstanding hypocrites who could not care less about the voters or honest elections. It was all about face time on the TV and the sound of their own voices, for when the moment came, they said "screw the voters whose votes didn't get counted". Even Harry Reid couldn't bring himself to vote in support of his own rhetoric. Almost makes you long for the days of Daschle. 74 to 1. At least Boxer had the guts to vote her professed convictions. What a proud day for the Democratic party and America in general. Anyone want to bet on whether we hear another word about election problems from any of these people in the next two years?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 12:58:18 PM EST
    I've been watching the House debate on C-SPAN. They're showing a running vote count (so far it's 115-20 against, with 7:05 remaining). Twice so far a single Republican Yea vote has shown up and then vanished. It's probably not significant, perhaps some glitch in the House's electronic voting system, but it's odd. Does anyone know what might cause this?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:22:48 PM EST
    Ernie, Ann, Molly and their ilk by their own behavior make it clearer every day: America - 1 leftists - 0

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:46:50 PM EST
    They can't win fair elections, and they know it. Ohio, and the federal election thereby, was STOLEN. A great day for America, and let the dictator quake in his little cowboy boots. The idea that the Black Caucus are 'leftists' is hilarious. Martin Luther King Jr. was a leftist to these people. Guess you, DA, should get back to trying to throw out that holiday, eh? Blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote, because they are only 2/3 human. -- Doctor Ace --

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    I am glad the dems did what they did, and it is a perfect example of who they are. Waste time on something that has absolutly no chance of going their way, style over substance. It might be a good conversation to have if they brought up the voter fraud in Philly that helped their candidate, but that would be intillectually honest. I am sure if all the legitimate cases of voter fraud were investigated, it would be 5 to 1 perpetrated by dems to republicans. Republicans are just more honest(you know, cuz we believe in God and living a moral life and all that). A perfect example of how democrats want to run elections is the Washington Governers race. Keep re counting until their candidate is winning, then stop and hurry to get the vote certified. The dems hypocricy is so transparent. The reason I am glad is that all the news outlets are going to run the story that the dems challenged the Ohio vote, which was decided by 120,000 votes. With the exception of left wing idiots, most moderate dems are going to see what a sore loser, childish leadership the democratic party has. Maybe another percentage point defecting to the good guys? Oh, and maybe Michael Moore will be the key-note speaker at the next convention. Keep the trend going. Fourteen more days, and we party again. See you at the inaugural! Side note-off subject---Isn't it funny that Ted Kennedy would put out a statement that mentions his disdain for torture that involves water? you know, after he drowned that girl at chapaquittick? It is kind of ironic, don't ya think?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:50:07 PM EST
    Can't take the election results without hurling vicious lies, Paul? It's called democracy. Your side lost. Get over it. If you can't accept that, get the hell out; you're anti-American. By your own witless behavior, you make my point. Prove fraud or shut the hell up, loser. Q.E.D.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:54:13 PM EST
    doctor ace, leftists are not american? and PLEASE do not bother to say that that's not what you meant, it's pretty effing clear; America - 1 leftists - 0 if you actually did some homework and pried open your narrow little mind for a moment, you might decide to try to engage in some meaningful exchanges of ideas. but instead you decide to wander in and take a nice big smelly crap right in the middle of the thread. and you probably sat back afterward, admiring the turd and it's stench. dissent is patriotic. being critical of our politicians is patriotic. as a matter of fact, what is not patriotic (at least in the words of our founding fathers) was the concentration of all power in the hands of the few. so tell me this; how can you call yourself a patriot when you so clearly wish for all the power to be in the hands of the republican party all of the time?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:03:25 PM EST
    Quite a metaphor, kelite. real class. Which side won't accept the win (by 3m votes, eq. to the pop. of CT? Do you accept the Bush win, kelite? Is he your prez? If so, fine. If not, see post to Paul above.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:05:58 PM EST
    "Can't take the election results without hurling vicious lies, Paul? It's called democracy. Your side lost. Get over it." HILARIOUS. An illegal election, as any election with 28 states voting without a recount right, cannot be 'won' in any case. It's a fraud, and whenever the facts are examined, the fraud is OBVIOUS. It's easy to steal elections WHEN YOU DON'T LET THE OTHER SIDE VOTE. You lot lie and lie and lie and lie, but it is coming back on you. You can steal elections, but you cannot hold back the truth. --

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:11:18 PM EST
    Do you accept the Bush win, kelite? Is he your prez? nice sidestep, ace. yeah, after i decided that leaving the country wasn't the right thing to do, i accepted that the evil empire won. gw is the president of the divided... errr, i mean, united states of america. i don't like it or him, but it is a fact at this point. which is really beside the point. how can you call yourself a patriot? what right do you have to call anyone else unamerican?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:17:20 PM EST
    kelite, I rember you as one who shot your "mouth" off recently, condemning me for defending American culture when I was defending jazz music. Now, on this thread, you have called me "narrow-minded". If you reread (read?) the thread, you note that my point is by YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR you are in error. You call a legitamite win by due process an "evil empire". The error comes from your own mouth, kelite. Q.E.D.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:32:50 PM EST
    lol! okay, so you can't defend yourself. calling people unamerican because they dissent is wrong in every sense of the word. that was my point. i am so glad you took the time to defend that charge instead of trying to bash me personally! oh, wait....

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:35:49 PM EST
    It isn't rocket science, kelite. Is America an evil empire or not? Do you accept the election results fair and square? How about a straight answer? I don't have to defend anything. You either do or don't.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 02:44:46 PM EST
    That's two down... NEXT!!!!

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:01:25 PM EST
    Doctor Ace...maybe I missed it, but have you ever contributed anything of substance here? It's nice to have a sense of humor, but you have to be serious at some point. So perhaps you can tell me...what is sensible about our current foreign policy?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:03:52 PM EST
    Without any audit, without any check on the vote, without any address to the thousands of documented vote fraud efforts, without allowing a fair recount in Ohio, without any evidence at all other than that produced by Bush-backer electronic machines and Bush-backer SecStates...Dr. Ace believes himself the winner. Then he immediately exposes himself as a TROLL, by declaring victory over the free expression of dissent on a site called TalkLeft. As long as he can deride people and pollute the discussion, he considers himself a winner. But that's the problem with stealing things. Possession is now in doubt. That doubt is a real force in a free society. Rather than run a real election they would lose, the $R's pulled out all the stops. Every dirty trick in the book -- and they nearly lost at that, as Rossi did in WA (oops, have to remember to pad the vote by a few thousand more next time). And the result is that possession is in doubt. There is no mandate; there is no transition of power in the hearts of Americans; there is no willingness on much of the other side (including many legitimate Republicans) to give credence to the supposed victor. Coercion is an uphill fight against a free people, DA. Your lot are nothing but the lackeys of traitors. --

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:21:51 PM EST
    The party of burgleries,illegal surveillance,election year covert arms deals with "terrorists", commit acts of election fraud?! Never!

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:28:46 PM EST
    It isn't rocket science, kelite. Is America an evil empire or not? Do you accept the election results fair and square? How about a straight answer? I don't have to defend anything. You either do or don't. lmao! much like i feel that the yankees are an 'evil empire', so do i feel that the bush administration is an 'evil empire'. did they win the election? yes, they won. that's why they call him the president. my question to you still stands. and it is hilarious that either don't intellectually grasp the question, or you childishly refuse to answer it. let me repeat myself;
    dissent is patriotic. being critical of our politicians is patriotic. as a matter of fact, what is not patriotic (at least in the words of our founding fathers) was the concentration of all power in the hands of the few. so tell me this; how can you call yourself a patriot when you so clearly wish for all the power to be in the hands of the republican party all of the time?


    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    If you don't believe the man who got the most votes in Ohio as well as the country overall is George Bush, you are an idiot. There is voter fraud and disenfranchisement on both sides(although I personally believe the dems perpetrate fraud more, but that is my opinion) and it evens out in the end. If you believe lines were made long in Democratic districts on purpose to get voters to go home, you're an idiot. Those districts elections are run by Democrats. If you believe the company that made the voting machines programmed them to make Bush the winner, you're an idiot. They're are plenty of Democratic computer programmers and computer experts and one of them would have been able to prove it by now. As far as voting machine malfunctions, that happened on both sides. Rational people understand Bush got more popular and electoral votes than Kerry. Some may not like that their ideology has been rejected, but Bush won. See you at the inaugural!

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:01:46 PM EST
    Gee, j45, too bad the facts don't support your conclusions. As for 'democratic vote fraud' ... where are your cases? We have, on record, Bush-backer Ohio SecState Katherine Blackwell's REFUSAL to hold a legal recount. Why would he do that? We already have, on record, the evidence that Bush-backer electronic voting company Triad committed felonies, tampering with voting machines across the state, in an effort to derail the recount. We already have, on record, plenty of evidence. You, have bupkis, and a loud mouth. You cannot 'inaugurate' a fraud. All you can do is kiss his ass. PUCKER UP. --

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:06:59 PM EST
    Concur or youre an America-hater. Intellectual content -3,lame ass imitation of a clear channel talk show host 10.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:09:02 PM EST
    That's what I like about this forum - the reasoned responses: I said: my wife . . . voted for Bush in the last election because she had no confidence in Kerry's ability to run a sensible foreign policy." The response: And she thought Bush did? It's official, she's an idiot. Ponder the notion that someone can honestly disagree with you and not be an idiot. IMHO, there's a rational anti-war (war in Iraq) position, for instance. I don't see it on display here very often - mostly I see rabid hatred and name calling. I can respect those who have honest and well thought out disagreement. It seems that most of the denizens here substitute name calling for thought, and venom for reflection.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:32:44 PM EST
    By Paul's own behavior, hurling baseless insults and refusing to accept the due process of a democratically elected president, he reveals his anti-American ignorance. This is not about dissent. This is about refusing to accept the democratic process. Kelite, this: "so tell me this; how can you call yourself a patriot when you so clearly wish for all the power to be in the hands of the republican party all of the time?" is nonsense. The Republicans won, fair and square. That's it. Case closed. It's over. You may as well argue that the sun comes up in the west. By their OWN BEHAVIOR, Q.E.D.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:56:15 PM EST
    last i heard, paul gets to do whatever the heck he wants with the 'democratic process' include demand an investigation. that's his right, as an american. when i say that all of the power shuold not be focused in few hands, i was quoting the founding fathers. they were sticklers for the whole anti-tyranny thing. did you even click on my link? you can go right ahead and call paul whatever you like but in my opinion, it's wrong and hypocritical.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 05:13:52 PM EST
    The Democratic Party is sinking like a stone, and this kind of nonsense is the reason. Where is the adult leadership? Idiocy like this is not good for anybody, because we need two strong political parties. The Democratics have become a joke, and in doing so they are letting down the country. People with brains and some strategic sense had better take control of this ship before it's too late.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 06:21:46 PM EST
    Wash. GOP Demands New Governor Election i assume this is ok with all the wingers here? F@@king hypocrites By the way JR why didn't you take a shor at J4564 for calling people idiots hypocrite

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 06:47:18 PM EST
    Ponder the notion that someone can honestly disagree with you and not be an idiot. JR...I didn't call anyone any names, I just asked you what your wife's reasoning was, since I cannot see how the Bush foreign policy is anywhere near sensible. Here was my original post: Could you please ask her for me what she finds sensible about the Bush foreign policy? I still await an answer. Thanks.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 06:49:48 PM EST
    Promoting hate? This written by someone who happily votes alongside Southern racists. Without them, the Republican Party wouldn't have a prayer in any federal election (figuratively and literally). Save your BS, its not credible.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:00:20 PM EST
    SD - Thanks for making some good points....for the other side. From the linked article: "County elections spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said Wednesday that 87 percent of the 31,545 provisional ballots issued in King County have been validated and included in the official count." So 11,300 votes, in an election that was won by 129 votes on the third recount have not been validated. Even worse, these are votes that, by the very fact they are provisional, are known to have some type of problem. That is totally outrageous. Further: "After losing the first two counts, Democrat Christine Gregoire beat Republican Dino Rossi in the third count by 129 votes out of 2.9 million ballots cast." Worse, these votes were "found" in the heavily Democratic King County. And in Ohio, guess what? The "problems" are supposed to be... are you ready... in heavily Democratic areas... And in Florida, the problems were in heavily Democratic counties. Does anyone besides me see a trend?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:04:43 PM EST
    so what is outragous in wash is not in Ohio - thanks for showing yourself to be a hypocrite again something we all knew.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:36:53 PM EST
    Does anyone besides me see a trend? The trend I see is that you are more likely to be disenfranchised if you are a Democrat. Since I take it you aren't a Democrat then you are the one "making points for the other side".

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:09:34 PM EST
    Contesting an election result because you don't like the outcome(if there was proof of fraud, it would be all over 60 Minutes) that is why Democrats continue to lose. Do you really want to be on the team that does that? See ya at the inaugural! [Ed. J4564, don't forget you are limited to four comments a day. You are now at three.]

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:11:56 PM EST
    Ernesto, SD - Since you appear to be from the group riding the short bus, here is what GOC said: "Didja ever notice that every time the Dimocrats want to have a recount it is in one of the precincts controlled by Dimocrats? And they want to count every vote until the Dimocrat wins and then they don't want to count anymore? And somehow, every time they recount the votes there are more Dimocrat votes? That's what happened in Washington. What's amazing is they wound up with more votes in King County than there were registered voters. Let's make every vote count more than once. Kinda like in Chicago where dead people vote. If you want more, here is a link. Let me warn you. He isn't polite, or nice. Thin skinned people should stay away.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 03:48:35 AM EST
    My point has been that you are all upset about Wash but don't care about Ohio you refuse to even acknowledge that point nuff said - the conslusion is obvious

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 06:26:27 AM EST
    ppj, as a seattelite- please read this link. the governor's race has been run on both sides by the exact letter of the law since day one. there is absolutely no evidence of anyone being disenfranchised in our state. dino rossi's advertisement, the one he's running in our state to try and force a new election, cites a member of the us military who was injured and he didn't get his ballot on time. best quote;
    But Secretary of State Sam Reed, also a Republican, said there's no evidence of any systemic problems with the military vote. Counties mailed absentee ballots to registered military voters by early October, Reed said.
    so provide more proof, less conjecture, ppj. and, btw, i try to not take seriously people who use terms like 'dimocrats' or 'repuglicans'. to me, it indicates a lack of credibility.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#50)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 07:58:23 AM EST
    I figure you guys should, as regards the presidential election you lost fair, square, and large, do what the dems are suggesting to the republicans in Washington state where they won by a zillionth of a percent. Deal with it. Move on. Get over it.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 08:14:28 AM EST
    kelite - Since I didn't address the military vote I don't know why you want me to comment. I made the following points: The votes have been recounted three times. On the third vote, the Democrat finally won with a 129 votes out of what, two million? Naturally, she doesn't want another count. The votes were found in King County, an absolute bastion of Democrats. Is now and was when I lived in Redmond. And, we find that out of 31,545 King County provisonal ballots, 13%, 11,300 have NOT been validated. And the kicker is: Provisonal ballots are only used when there is a problem, so do you think maybe 129 would be thrown out out of the remaining 11,300? And then the small matter of more vote than voters... As for your Ornicus link, I just laughed and laughed. The Demos are still mad because they didn't get to recount until they "found" enough votes to win in FL. I still remember that TV shot of that Democratic election worker holding up the ballot, staring intently at it, trying to determine if there was a hanging chad, or indention, or anyhing that would let him devine the obvious intent of the voter to vote for Algore. As for GOC, he can be embarassing sometimes, but often he is a hoot. He definitely is not for anyone easily insulted, or PC. SD - When Ohio is down to 129 votes, let me know and I will demand a recount. More than 'nuff said. Unless you can't see the difference. Better yet. I'll give you the same number of unvalidated votes in WA. 11,300. So when the difference is 11300 in provisional unvalidated votes, let me know. You may call collect. Just ask for the guy laughing so hard he can't stand up. Ernesto - Tell me. Why is it always Democratic precients having problems? Florida, Ohio, Washington. Is it genetic? Or is it a disease they caught from their peers in Chicago?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 08:41:18 AM EST
    well, you can laugh all you like when i substantiate my claims. just as i can ignore your points when you can't even bother to post proof. and if you think i am counting the 'grouchy old cripple' link (that's the actual name of the blog) you are tripping. again, the question of credibility... personally, i would heartily welcome a new election in washington. i don't think the results would be nearly as close, as we are all as a state weary of waiting to find out who our governor will be. in ohio, the issue is election reform. i don't think that the election (for president) will be overturned. but i think enough evidence of widespread fraud and disenfrachisement will be found to justify major campaign reform. which is a good thing.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#53)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 09:19:57 AM EST
    Kelite, I think election processes need to be cleaned up. That means less room for democratic precincts to turn out over 100% of the registered voters. You ready for that? It may mean not allowing democrat officials to divine voter intent from smears on ballots. It may mean counting military ballots. Careful what you ask for.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 09:37:12 AM EST
    of course i want fair and clean elections. i want transparent processes in place and honest officials overseeing the process and the results. i am not afraid of election reform. i personally have nothing to hide. i have no doubt that there is widespread fraud on both sides of the political spectrum - i don't delude myself into thinking that a) only the other party does it or b) the other party does it so it's okay for my party to do it. if we call for a re-vote, and new election processes to be enacted in washington state, we must investigate and implement election reform across the country. including in ohio. fraud is fraud, and it's wrong, no matter what party does it. if you think that any political party or candidate will be free of corruption when (and if) election processes are reformed, you are in for a sad awakening.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 10:18:59 AM EST
    Tell me. Why is it always Democratic precients having problems? Florida, Ohio, Washington. Is it genetic? Or is it a disease they caught from their peers in Chicago? It's because the precints are usually low income so they don't have very good equipment, similar to the schools and everything else that is inferior in a low income area. So literally, votes in low income areas aren't worth as much as in higher income areas. This is one of the things about our democracy you should be ashamed of, but apparently aren't even aware of.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 10:51:05 AM EST
    kelite--and it is continuing to be decided by adherence to law, I know because I live in Washington state. I want it to go to the bitter end, and then we'll pick up the pieces and go about our lives. This is the greatest civic lesson most voters in this state have ever had. Glad to see you're a fellow Washingtonian! PPJ--if you want the real scoop on the Washington state governor's race go here and you'll get it. http://www.horsesass.org/ Then you can post with intelligence. I believe that a couple of the dead voters were Republicans. Or go to this web site and listen to what our state is learning about election reform http://www.kuow.org/weekday.aspand archived Weekday program of 1/7/05 9:00 am. BTW this is the best thing to come out of this whole wacked-up affair! Election reform! My county, Grays Harbor, counted the votes wrong the first time, a batch of ballots were run through the counting machine twice, giving the county to Rossi. When Washington state law triggered the automatic machine recount this mistake was found and rectified giving the county to Gregoire--I bet the worker in the auditor's office, that ran the ballots through twice was a Republican! James Robertson--and for each voter like your wife that is turned off by the Ohio voting debate, one like me is turned on! just paul--you are so right, I'm looking for another party not because of the debate of our election process but because so many in the Democrat Party are fixed on MONEY and not the principles that the party is suppose to stand for. Hiss! Boo! Doctor Ace--I don't accept the election. That's one up! And I will shun Bush on Inauguration Day--now don't tell me I'm an idiot, it's my right to do so. Richard Aubrey--did you know that military personnel can vote in Washington state by fax or e-mail if they don't receive their ballot in time? How about your state? Did you also know that the military can pick up Federal Write In Ballots from their voting assistant officer? I think a lot of us here blow a lot of hot air, and most of the time we don't know what we're talking about. Ernesto--right on about the income level of most inner-city Democrat precincts!

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#57)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    Bennington, I wasn't referring to Washington, but to the hundreds if not thousands, of lawyers the dems dispatched to Florida to contest military ballots in 2000. It was on C-Span, those oxygen-wasters standing there in front of election boards going on about postmark dates and so forth. Support the troops, only don't let them vote. If we have election reform, that may no longer be an option. Are you ready for that?

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 12:10:31 PM EST
    bennington; your enthusiasm is infectious - and you're right. this is a very exciting time for washington state, and hopefully we will do it all right. i have learned more than i thought possible about the process and our state's government. i have gained a huge respect for our secretary of state - he has been right on from day one. i think i started paying attention to him when he was dealing with the press on the 'one party' ballot we tried out last year- where you pick either dem or rep or a third party and you can only vote for candidates in that party. it was clear that, like most of us, he was against the new law but determined to run the campaign fairly and abide by the new rules. as for ohio, as i said before, invetigation benefits everyone - except those who have secrets to hide.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 01:29:08 PM EST
    Benny posts: "Doctor Ace--I don't accept the election. That's one up! And I will shun Bush on Inauguration Day--now don't tell me I'm an idiot, it's my right to do so." Why not, Benny? Because your candidate didn't win? Are you saying you don't believe in the democratic process, when Bush won by 3m votes, equivalent to the entire population of the state of Connecticut? You wouldn't make a good Ukrainian today, never mind American. btw, didn't you say you were leaving? btw, I didn't say your ilk were idiots; I did say your behavior is unAmerican.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 01:55:31 PM EST
    kelite writes - "as i said before, invetigation benefits everyone - except those who have secrets to hide." Then I assume you are for validating all of the provisonal votes I wrote about. Oh, you are not? Then you should look up hypocrite in the dictionary. Oh, don't bother. Just go look in the mirror. And what "proof?" You can not deny the numbers. They are non-political Bennington writes - "I believe that a couple of the dead voters were Republicans." So? What is your point? I'm merely saying that to declare a winner on the thrid recount based on a 129 vote lead with 11,300 PROVISIONAL ballots not validated is laughable. Especially when you complain about Ohio with its 130,000 vote lead. And I didn't realize you were in Seattle. That makes your escape to Canada a very easy two hour drive. Ta ta! and all that! Ernesto - Well, it was the Demos who dsigned the now famous FL ballot that was so confusing older Democrats couldn't figure it out. BTW - Those areas were far from being poor. And to call King County in WA poor displays a remarkable lack of knowledge.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 02:18:20 PM EST
    The idea that people calling themselves "Demos" represent the party as a whole was DISPROVED CATEGORICALLY by a cat named Zell Miller. Duel anyone? I'm all in favor of revoting the election, state by state, including WA, and we worked real hard to raise the $850,000 that state absurdly demands for a recount. But don't just recount the pres race -- recount the entire ballot! Voters who voted on those pre-punched for Bush cards double-voted when they punched for Kerry. Let's take those WA 'overvotes,' and lets recanvass the voters in the precincts that had gigantic overvotes...find out what they intended, shall we? Massive vote fraud. The entire election, with 28 states voting with NO paper trail, machines punched for Kerry recording Bush votes in any number of those states, the twelve hour waits in line in Dem precincts, and the HILARIOUS step-n-fetch-it routine of Katherine Blackwell trying to dodge supoenas --- you just can't make this stuff up. No WMD, not one. And not one legal election to power, either time. It's a Trifecta of Treason! --

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 02:20:12 PM EST
    kelite writes - "as i said before, invetigation benefits everyone - except those who have secrets to hide." Then I assume you are for validating all of the provisonal votes I wrote about. Oh, you are not? Then you should look up hypocrite in the dictionary. Oh, don't bother. Just go look in the mirror. And what "proof?" You can not deny the numbers. They are non-political i am for investigating the election here in washington state and re-running it if necessary - or validating any provisional votes that were fraudulently kept from being counted. after a full bipartisan investigation. am i for validating questionable provisional votes based on the ramblings of a neo-conservative troll who doesn't even link to the source of his numbers? um, that would be a no. as i said;
    i am not afraid of election reform. i personally have nothing to hide. i have no doubt that there is widespread fraud on both sides of the political spectrum - i don't delude myself into thinking that a) only the other party does it or b) the other party does it so it's okay for my party to do it.


    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#63)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    I would like to point out that the elections were monitored by international bodies, i.e. OCSE. The link takes you to one of their publications, where you can find the following; “The mission concluded that the elections had been conducted in an environment reflecting a long-standing democratic tradition, comprising institutions governed by the rule of law, free and professional media and an active civil society involved in all aspects of the election process” and further, for you folks who think the media is in on the big cover up, “although the media and others seemed content with the mission’s findings, some made known their disappointment with the outright lack of criticism of the process” followed by some anectode about a TV producer.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 05:50:08 PM EST
    "I'm all in favor of revoting the election..." No dice, Paul; go home. You had your chance Nov. 2 and you lost. See ya in 4 years. btw, all, Bill Clinton won 1992 on a plurality vote, not even a majority. A lot of conservatives were unhappy, but I recall a much more mature response in their disappointment. Guess it just goes to show ya...

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 08:37:12 AM EST
    kelite - Be careful what you ask for. You may get it. Here is the article which is an AP story. It was thoughtfully provided by "soccerdad at January 6, 2005 07:21 PM" Which I used in my post on " January 6, 2005 08:00 PM SD - Thanks for making some good points....for the other side. From the linked article...." So you write: "am i for validating questionable provisional votes based on the ramblings of a neo-conservative troll who doesn't even link to the source of his numbers? um, that would be a no." Evidently you didn't read SD's comments, or mine very well, or you would have known where they come from. Now that you know the source of the numbers, do you want to change your mind? I mean, after all we know that: PROVISIONAL VOTES are votes that have known questions about them. You write: " or validating any provisional votes that were fraudulently kept from being counted. after a full bipartisan investigation." You do understand, don't you that "counting" and "validate" do not mean the same. The issue isn't that were not counted. The issue is they have not been validated. 11,300 of them from King County have not been validated. That means the questions about each one of them have not been answered. Again. Are you trying to tell the world that with a lead of 129 votes, that ALL of the 11,300 will remain as currently counted? Wouldn't a reasonable non-partisan person conlude that these votes need to be validated? kelite, be as insulting as you can, but the fact remains, you don't need an investigation. All you need to do is validate the 11,300 votes. So give up on the strawman. You know, in FL the Demos screamed, "Let every vote count!" What they meant, and what they have done in WA, is "Let every vote count.....until we have a lead." Keep that mirror clean, and don't forget your dictionary.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 08:42:02 AM EST
    Paul In LA - Hey! DA is the Dark Avenger, and I would guess both of them have been insulted by you calling Ace, DA. BTW - Do you have a problem with Rice as SecS? Ace - You have to go back to '88 to find a persidential election that was won with a majority.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 08:42:12 AM EST
    I would love to see Gregoire set a high path example and join the call for a new special election. But the leaders in the vote count always find a justification to stop the counting when they have a lead. It worked for Bush in Florida 2000. Now, Jim, were you as supportive of looking hard at all the ballots in Florida in 2000 as you are for reviewing the WA ballots? I am looking for consistency. Anything less suggests more partisan, unprincipled argument.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 08:44:26 AM EST
    and Jim, shorter please. For me, it's about values, core beliefs, principles and distilled thinking. I don't generally have time to scan your long posts.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    DA,you think like the Bushster. You think that if you just waltz into the bank and steal the cash in the vault you are the Gay Thief that everyone loves. Nixon thought he was the Gay Thief, and your boy ain't no R. Nixon. He doesn't have the stuffing. That first debate showed what a flyweight idiot he is, absent the malice and Bag of Goering's Tricks he memorized as a child Nazi. There's a whole lot of law coming you guys' way, and you KNOW the only reason your guys aren't in jail is because of the Aschroft in the works. This new guy Gonzales is second string. He's not going to make it six months. It's weird to watch you guys accept Rice at State and a fleaweight like Gonzales take over the DoJ. [Ed. Paul, please eliminate the insults and name calling. I deleted one from this comment. Also, please don't put dashes at the end of your comments, they take up too much vertical space.]

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 08, 2005 at 12:23:56 PM EST
    btw, all, Bill Clinton won 1992 on a plurality vote, not even a majority. A lot of conservatives were unhappy, but I recall a much more mature response in their disappointment. Guess it just goes to show ya... Yeah the conservatives blamed Ross Perot, and spent the next couple years trashing him. And of course they were VERY mature in their treatment of Clinton for 8 years... Typical repug...always pushing the boundaries of hypocrisy to the outer limits of the universe.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 09, 2005 at 12:00:54 AM EST
    again, with feeling...
    i am not afraid of election reform. i personally have nothing to hide. i have no doubt that there is widespread fraud on both sides of the political spectrum - i don't delude myself into thinking that a) only the other party does it or b) the other party does it so it's okay for my party to do it.
    bring it on, ppj et al. let's fix it ALL. let's make sure every single registered voter in america can cast their vote and have it counted. abso-freakin-lutely. and as i also said before, i have no doubt that the democrats have done their fair share of tweaking the vote, just like the republicans. i lost my illusions about honest polticians (and the corporations that get them elected) long, long ago. will we ever get true election reform? no way. not unless our government becomes less about corporations and more about being, you know, by the people and for the people. i repeat, i welcome a revote in the wa state governors race. i can't wait to vote for gregoire again. and by all means, bring in 1,000... what was that charming term ace or cliff used? oh yes, 'oxygen wasters'. bring in 1,000+ 'oxygen wasters' to make sure the election goes smoothly and fairly so that there is no doubt as to the outcome.

    Re: Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 09, 2005 at 12:02:59 AM EST
    whoops, the 'oxygen wasters' term was coined by the always clever richard aubrey. so sorry, it's so easy to get you all mixed up when you talking points are so similar.

    Dems to Challenge Ohio Electoral Vote Count | 70 comments (70 topical)