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Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Free Smokes

If you bought cigarettes online and had them sent to New York, you may get a visit from the tax man. New York's Mayor Bloomberg is unhappy that residents are going online to get cigarettes and avoid the $3.00 per pack tax and obscene $7.00 per pack price in New York. So he went after the online cigarette brokers. But several had gone out of business. So he sic'd the tax department on the purchasers, and is charging penalties and interest. Thousands of people are getting letters telling them to pay up.

First off, how did he know who they were?

The city gleaned the names and addresses from a Virginia lawsuit against one site, Cigs4cheap.com, which offered reduced-tax cigarettes and is now out of business.

...The letters, sent to those who bought cigarettes online between July 2002 and April 2004, give the alleged violators 30 days to pay or face interest and penalties of up to $200 a carton. By Friday morning, the department had received several phone calls asking to set up payment plans.

If you think you can ignore the letter, think again:

I think we'll get it all," said Finance Department spokeswoman Joanna Perlman. "We're very good at collections. We have lots of tools we can use, including liens on people's bank accounts and houses."

A New York lawyer says the letter is nasty. He bought a few cartons as a gift two years ago and was just ordered to fork over $30 in tax.

"Usually those official letters are quite polite, but this one is oddly belligerent," said Reiser, a Manhattan lawyer. "It's several pages long. It talks about vendors' false claims, and if you don't pay, we're going to get a judgment against you, and you won't be able to get a credit card."

If you think you're safe because your online vendor is still in business, you're wrong. There's an old, old law called the Jenkins Act.

It requires dealers who ship cigarettes to another state to inform that state's government of who had purchased them.

Before you respond with "Good, maybe it will make people quit smoking," think of the implications if this were expanded into a sales tax on other products sold on the Internet. It's a dangerous precedent.

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    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ray Radlein on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 11:23:07 PM EST
    How does this square with the numerous pieces of federal legislation implemented specifically to shield online purchases from local taxes? I'm really having a tough time seeing how they can go after the consumers on this. After all, the seller is supposed to be responsible for taxes, right? How is this any different from either (a) buying cigarettes from a merchant who then neglects to pay the taxes to the state, or (b) buying cigarettes in New Jersey or Connecticut?

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#2)
    by cp on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 11:40:28 PM EST
    there is a sct case, quill v mich, regarding the requirement to collect state sales taxes at the source. the ruling was in favor of quill, who contended that they were not required to collect michigan's sales tax, on sales to michigan residents, because they (quill) had no physical presence in mich. the sct agreed. that case has never been overruled. would this apply in the present instance? or is the fact that they are talking about excise taxes, not sales taxes, what differentiates the cases? in either event, the excise tax is also required to be collected at the source, not paid separately by the retail consumer. new york may have a problem if someone challenges them on this. because of the way the law is written, they might well lose. just my opinion.

    this looks like a great opportunity for the drug dealers to expand their operations and strike a blow at the tryanny of the majority and let freedom smoke all over this land.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 06:00:39 AM EST
    I read in one of the NY papers that the city has no right to bill the consumers, and lawyers are advising people who receive cigarette tax bills to dispute them. State sponsored extortion is what it is. The bueracrats can't balance a budget, so they go after those with undesirable vices to foot the bill. Bastards.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 06:02:35 AM EST
    The best part...Mayor Bloomberg had the gaul to say "maybe this will make someone quit". Like this has anything to do with getting people to quit. It's all about the revenue baby!

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 07:21:05 AM EST
    They always use that "quiting thing" when they take a bunch of money from people. If all the smokers quit, where would the state replace the funds? thats right... tax the twinkies! On a serious note, this is flat out wrong, and I hope there is a backlash against Mr. Bloomberg on this one.

    Can anyone say "injuction"? Kdog is right on the money, literally.

    et al - The mob has been smuggling cigs into NYC from NC for years because of the high taxes. I wonder if His Honor ever asks questions before he does something

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 08:56:55 AM EST
    Jim's right, cig. tax evasion has been going on for years, though I believe evading these taxes is totally justified as a form of protest. Going after the mob would require some legwork, it's much easier for the city to get a customer list from an internet company and print out tax bills to cover up for their inadequate leadership, when it comes to a balanced budget. I can't wait for this scheme to blow up in their faces.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#10)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 09:14:36 AM EST
    This kind of outrageously large tax would serve to highlight ‘hidden’ taxation, the kind of taxation that usually goes unnoticed. When most think of taxes they think of year-end taxes on income. I wonder what the average person pays directly and indirectly in taxes. It’s like $.4 on the gallon, $3-$7 on the pack, booze, plane tickets, regular old sales tax. What about the price increases that are passed to consumers meant to cover taxes industry must pay; we must pay some portion of the gasoline tax truckers pay to get us asparagus and cheetos. I paid sales tax on a computer that was built from parts that were taxed built by labor that was taxed; we are paying taxes on taxes. I pay property tax yearly on my home and, get this, on my car. I guess it’s best I don’t know, all told, the true cost of taxes; my head would split in two. Community aint cheep.

    $7 a pack? Still cheap where I am. Pack of Marlbro here £4.50 = $8.37. There used to be a joke, how do you make a pack of twnety cost £3? Take the cigarets out. I gave up day b4 yesterday. Brrrr. It's nasty. Nice to know governments can make money out of your addiction and persecute you for it.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 09:31:41 AM EST
    A pack a day smoker in NYC is paying over 1000 a year in cig taxes alone. For a 25k a year worker, that's a serious hump of change. Taxation like that led to our first and only revolt, could the next be far behind?

    pigwiggle - A family of four making around $85K is paying around 50% in taxes and fees. kdog - Quit. Millions have.

    Actually, you are supposed to declare any goods purchased through mail order or other method where you didn't pay sales tax on the item where you purchased it. There is probably a line on your state income tax for it. Just because it is unenforcable, doesn't mean it isn't the law. I know New York goes after people who try to ship expensive items (art, jewellry and such) to avoid NYC taxes. It just looks like someone got smart in making cigarette sellers keep records.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:12:08 AM EST
    I'll quit if I so choose Jim. I will not quit in the face of extortion by the state. I'll just go to the black market, as thousands have.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:14:45 AM EST
    Do you really believe in morality enforced by taxation?

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:17:34 AM EST
    On second thought Jim, since some forms of gambling are so frowned upon, how would you feel if your locale taxed poker games at a rate of $5 per half hour, on top of the cardrooms rake. You could always quit, right?

    i don't mind paying the extra tax. everytime i purchase a carton, i wince, and think about the nice shoes i could have purchased or that bathroom i'm remodeling. plus, i think vices (things you choose to use, not things you have to use) should be taxed a lot. keep the tax off the milk and bread, put it on my cigarettes, or his booze, or whatever. keep that giant tax off the groceries and stuff that people need to survive.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#19)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:21:32 AM EST
    kelite- Lets put aside that fact that I don’t drink milk; should truckers get a tax break on gas if they are hauling milk?

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#20)
    by glanton on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:24:39 AM EST
    pigwiggle: on a related note, today's holiday is sharing time with a lesser known holiday, in honor of Rush listening (either Limbaugh or the band), Ayn Rand reading, home schooling, anti-communitarians. Just thought I'd wish you a happy Atlas S*#T day.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:34:07 AM EST
    I'm willing to pay some tax on my vices, but once it goes over 100% of the mfg.'s list price, that is beyond excessive. kelite, aren't milk, bread, eggs, and produce already exempt from taxes? I was under the assumption they are. My corner deli doesn't tax milk, unless it's already factored into the sticker price.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:39:29 AM EST
    glanton- Your sincerity brought a tear to this calloused, self-centered, selfish, libertarian eye. But I’ll be honoring MLK today, anyway.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:48:11 AM EST
    I'm willing to pay some tax on my vices
    In fact, I've all but begged for the gov't to legalize reefer and begin taxing it. For a pack of doobs, I'd pay $20.

    Lets put aside that fact that I don’t drink milk; should truckers get a tax break on gas if they are hauling milk? yes, let's, because i was talking in general about groceries. i assume you eat? as for a tax break on hauling it... i don't know. i am inclined to say no because the driver is persumably getting paid to haul the milk - or petroleum, or whatever. but i'd have to think about it more in depth before being definitive. kelite, aren't milk, bread, eggs, and produce already exempt from taxes? I was under the assumption they are. My corner deli doesn't tax milk, unless it's already factored into the sticker price. yes, they are tax free. what i meant is that they should stay that way. our country needs taxes in order to survive, so i think if it's a choice between taxing people on vices or taxing people on groceries, i choose vices. i agree that it has gotten a bit ridiculous when you are paying the same amount (or more) than the msrp in tax. but in general, i think taxing smokes is better than taxing food. btw, ny (and bloomberg) are notoriously anti-smoking. the whole world is getting that way, actually. i was outside in a park, alone, smoking. a woman actually approached me to tell me that i shouldn't be smoking there because it bothers people. she went out of her way to come up to me and demand that i stop smoking outside, and then she had the nerve to wave her hand around and cough. i was so peeved - i had purposefully sat in the grass (not on a bench) away from all civilization to enjoy a smoke and a book... anyway, end rant. sorry i blew up. btw, i also support legal and taxed marijuana... such an untapped revenue source! plus many other myriad benefits...

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 11:44:12 AM EST
    I agree kelite, if the choice boils down to cigs or food, tax the cigs. But the city isn't taxing cigs to avoid taxing food. They are taxing cigs because they are inept and can't trim the pork and balance a budget. I am more than willing to pay a reasonable 20-30% of the mfg's list in tax. $7 a pack is like 200%, which qualifies as extortion for my lifestyle choice. Do skydivers pay 200% tax on parachutes? Do drag racers pay 200% on gasoline? Even alcohol taxes are no where near the level of cigs in NY. Regarding rude anti-smokers...If someone is polite I will accomodate a request to smoke away from them. When I run into someone like your woman in the park, I reply I find their perfume/cologne/deoderant equally offensive and ask them to get the hell away from me. They cough, I cough. They wave their hands, I wave mine. I've found it shuts them up right quick. I always breath easier in a smoky bar than I do at Macy's perfume counter.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#26)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 12:10:49 PM EST
    I pay sales tax on all the food I buy, here in Utah. But that aside, taxes up the food ‘food chain’ contribute to the price. If you were to raise taxes on diesel fuel used in farming (currently they enjoy a tax break there) the price of food produced with that fuel would also increase. This goes to the point of my original post. We are all paying big bucks for taxes we never see; taxes on labor, taxes on material, taxes on shipping, sales tax. These all increase the price of goods and service.

    kdog - Hey, quitting was`just a suggestion. I don't care. Matter of fact, the government needs for you to kick off early to help SS. ;-) As for gambling, all winnings are taxed as ordinary income. Plus, local taxes on the clubs themselves directly effect the cost to play. Sin taxes have been around forever. Check out what a license to serve beer, wine and spirits costs your local bars and grills.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 01:46:18 PM EST
    PPJ I just thought if I compared cigs to your vice of choice you would sympathize. I play in a card room with a $4 per half hour rake, if that was doubled because the city decided to tax cardplayers (in addition to cardrooms), it would no longer be profitable and/or affordable for me to play. Hence, the gov't would be enforcing their morality through excessive taxation. Good thing poker is still illegal in NYC, or I'd bet the city would do it, and I'd be driving to AC or Foxwoods on the regular. And just because sin taxes have been around forever doesn't make it right. And it certainly doesn't mean they should increase at a rate far beyond other forms of taxation. Are you for or against sin taxes? And who defines sin? Should Big Macs qualify?

    pigwiggle - A family of four making around $85K is paying around 50% in taxes and fees. A family of four making 1,000k a year pays about 20%. Fair, huh?

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#30)
    by cp on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 03:21:43 PM EST
    kdog, i wondered the same thing. seems like fast food is a vice, not a necessity. the same with restaurants, bowling, etc. hardly necessities. actually, the very, very last thing either the federal or state governments want is for everyone to suddenly stop smoking and drinking. the revenue loss would be in the billions. not too mention the loss of jobs, and the overall negative ripple effect on the entire economy. mr. bloomberg should be happy with the taxes the state and city does collect. mary r, you're quite correct, about reporting untaxed catalog or internet purchases to the state. in va, we are required to do that on our state income tax return. that, however, is strictly for sales taxes. what the good mayor is referring to are the state & city excise taxes, already included in the posted price of the product. sales taxes are computed at the point of sale, and are based on the price of the product. this is in addition to the excise taxes, which are not required to be separately reported and paid by the retail consumer. that is the difference. the law as written, in va anyway, makes no mention of the ultimate consumer being in any way responsible for paying excise taxes to the state directly. for that matter, the seller isn't required to include excise taxes as part of the selling price, as long as they are still paid to the federal, state and local governments. i suspect new york law is the same. that is also why i suspect the good mayor will lose, if someone challenges it. this would also explain the harshness of the letters: if you scare people enough, maybe they won't stop to think, and realize you are full of crap. it's a tactic to get people to pay taxes that they aren't really liable for. that's my suspicion.

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ray Radlein on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 08:48:40 PM EST
    btw, ny (and bloomberg) are notoriously anti-smoking. the whole world is getting that way, actually. i was outside in a park, alone, smoking. a woman actually approached me to tell me that i shouldn't be smoking there because it bothers people. she went out of her way to come up to me and demand that i stop smoking outside, and then she had the nerve to wave her hand around and cough. i was so peeved - i had purposefully sat in the grass (not on a bench) away from all civilization to enjoy a smoke and a book... anyway, end rant. sorry i blew up.
    That's the sort of incident and attitude which prompted Patrick Nielsen Hayden (who is, FWIW, a New Yorker) to jokingly suggest the creation of a new activist group: "Non-Smokers Against Anti-Smoking." As he put it at the time, "By the time they figure out what we actually stand for, we'll have made good our escape."

    Re: Online Cigarette Buyers Beware: No More Tax Fr (none / 0) (#32)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 06:24:42 AM EST
    "to jokingly suggest the creation of a new activist group: "Non-Smokers Against Anti-Smoking."" They are called libertarians.