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Shaming Sanctions As Punishment

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:29:04 AM EST
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Dan Markal has an op-ed in USA Today on shaming sanctions as an alternative to imprisonment. I agree with him:

The very goal of shaming is the dehumanization of another person before, and with the participation of, the public. Such punishments are not only ineffective. They are wrong.

[link via Punishment Theory.]

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    Shaming Sanctions As Punishment | 23 comments (23 topical)
    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:38:23 AM EST
    great article, thanks for posting it. i particularly liked this line;
    If we embrace shaming punishments, we betray our claim to hold America out as a beacon to other nations, and to our children.
    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:58:43 AM EST
    We certainly should never be ashamed of our leaders.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 11:17:15 AM EST
    Schwartzenegger claims he wants to change the focus of criminal punishment. Unfortunately this is the direction he is mostly likely to take. We have already seen demonstrations of this kind of behavior from him. And it is certainly the preferred methodology of the Bush administration.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 11:51:44 AM EST
    "he was innocent, not a charge was true, what do you do when your branded, but you know your a man." If the rate of repeat offenders is high now, this would certainly make any criminal a careerist. never mind, our current penal system already accomplishes that.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 12:11:12 PM EST
    I have not found, particularly, that shaming my children in public is effective. Further, the only times I've done it was when I was very mad and pretty much had lost my temper and judgement. -C

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 12:33:19 PM EST
    "he was innocent, not a charge was true, what do you do when your branded, but you know your a man."
    All but one man died? There at Bitter Creek?

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#7)
    by Adept Havelock on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 01:08:50 PM EST
    Shame based punishment? I can see them lining up now to brand people's forehead with an "A" for adultery. Maybe the Bushiveks will use "S" for subversive, as Dawn Blair suggested in her dark comedy. Of course, turning our back on this means giving up the option of putting White Collar Criminals and Govt. Officials in the stocks in Times Square and the National Mall. :)

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 01:40:44 PM EST
    Ostracism is the other ancient tool of justice besides mob execution that has deep roots in the human psyche and collective past. The urge to shame someone else in public is no stranger to me - I admit that some of the commenters here tempt me as do folks like Charles Grainer. In addition there's the titillating relationship of shame and sex that makes it ohhh so appealing to some. However, the point of civilization to me is to overcome our lower urges with the positive reinforcement of civilized living. That involves, in my estimation, government by and for the people, fair and just resource allocation and legal code and care of the sick and poor. Shaming is a form of disenfranchisment. If one is committing crimes because they don't feel they have a stake in their country (and/or vice versa) then proving them right by publicly agreeing with their verdict of self-hate justifies their actions to them. Shame and redemption as a sinner in a religious context may have its appropriate place, although I don't personally think so (and I say this as a product of Catholic School! - reference shame and sex above lol). Shame as a quantifiable punishment administered by a secular government would be silly if it weren't actually under consideration. First, the effects of shaming actions on individuals would vary vastly (vastly vary??) depending on their life experience. For example shaming someone who was emotionally abused and shamed their whole life, raped in jail, etc. would be affected very differently from Cliff the commenter's children's reaction (no offense, Cliff's kids) who have rarely if ever been humiliated in public (see above). (I assume you must have tried it to realize it doesn't work, Cliff). In addition, punishment befitting crimes could have some really bizzare-o ramifications. Imagine a convicted prostitute being required to perform sexual acts on the judge to shame him/her? (could happen!). If I had time I'm sure I could find some real life examples. Maybe Govenor Ahnuld is hoping for a little of the prostitution action himself!

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 01:45:52 PM EST
    The Constitution bars cruel and unusual punishment. We don't live in Saudi Arabia.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 01:50:45 PM EST
    COMPLETE VERSION All but one man died, there at Bitter Creek, And they say he ran away Branded! Marked with a coward’s shame. What do you do when you’re branded, Will you fight for your name? He was innocent, not a charge was true, But the world will never know Branded! Scorned as the one who ran. What do you do when you’re branded, And you know you’re a man? And wherever you go for the rest of your life You must prove... you’re a man!

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 02:00:32 PM EST
    I don't know why one would oppose shaming sanctions as opposed to incarceration, which to my mind, deprives the convict not only of dignity, but also liberty. There's a difference between disintegrative shame and reintegrative shame. With the latter, a person has the possibility of redeeming themselves and rejoining the community. The problem is that our society may be so alienated that there is no so-called national community to be reintegrated into, as opposed to say Japan.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 02:22:55 PM EST
    Of course, re-integrative assumes one was integrated into society in the first place...

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 02:32:30 PM EST
    Mr. Bond....James Bond... Reintegration is a noble concept but hardly a reflection of the standard post-release environment. No sex offenders/murders allowed in my neighborhood, no ex-felons hired by my company, no student loans to ex-felons, and the list goes on. Where, pray tell, is the reintegration? No shame in your perfect reintegration world? After 243 job applications, 242 of which were trashed as soon as they got to the line that says "Have you ever been convicted....". My favorite was the middle aged lady that read through the application, and when sh got to "The Question", her eyes got wide, her face got white, she stood up and said "I think I'll open the door. It's a little stuffy in here." No shame? PUHLEEZ

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#14)
    by cp on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 02:34:11 PM EST
    branded was actually a pretty good series, and the opening was great: epaulets ripped off shoulders, sword broken over knee and tossed aside. let's see if i understand this: shaming is bad, because, well, it might just piss off the shamee, as opposed to rehabilitating them. prison, which has been pretty decisively proven to not rehabilitate anyone, and is considered shameful, by decent members of society, is somehow more humane. hmmmmmmm! just out of curiousity, how many people have actually died, as a result of being shamed in public, as opposed to the number who have been murdered, while incarcerated in some of our nation's finest penal institutions?

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 03:05:21 PM EST
    What exactly is "shaming?" What comes to mind is a pillory or whipping people in public or causing a physical deformity of some kind. We don't need to start going down this road. They aren't going to stop sending people to prison.The prison industry would have none of that. They will just think of more laws that the citizens have supposedly broken. Go over the speed limit? Ok..then let's throw them in a puddle of mud? Abu Ghraib abuses come to mind. How many speeders can make up this week's pyramid?..Tune in next week to Torture USA.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 03:36:20 PM EST
    cp, What makes you think that we would be any better at preventing murder of the shamed than we have been at preventing murder of the incarcerated?

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 04:30:44 PM EST
    Chopping off someone's hand is cruel and usual. Shaming is not. When teachers ask their students to stand in the corner for a time-out, that is shame punishment. No big deal.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 05:25:57 PM EST
    Chopping off a hand is not cruel. Heck, killing someone is not cruel. Ask Beardslee. Oh, wait. You can't.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#19)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:22:29 PM EST
    Presuming anybody were actually guilty of a crime, just what punishment would TLers think is justified? Perhaps we should shame the victim for causing all this fuss. That would require acknowledging the victim. Not a good idea.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 05:13:50 AM EST
    Standing a child in a corner in order to shame him is a little different than the shame attached to post-release individuals. Why? Because, with children - be it from parents or teachers - there is an end. OK, you've been punished, try to do better next time, it's over. There is NO end to the shame of post- release, because our "law-and-order" society won't allow an end. I've asked this question before, I'll ask it again. How many of you supporters of reform have hired ex-inmates to work in your company?

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:00:39 AM EST
    The constitution does not allow cruel and unusual punishment. It does not prohibit punishment with no end. For any violent or sexual crime, I have no problem if the criminals have to carry the shame for the rest of his life. They "earned" it.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 10:05:28 AM EST
    No shame in my perfect reintegration world? Huh? Calm down, Mr. Ytterby. I think you've misinterpreted what I've wrote - I think we're in agreement. What I wrote is that people who oppose shaming penalties -- as an alternative to incarceration -- ignore the fact that incarceration IS a shaming penalty, degrades them, turns them into 2d class citizens, etc.

    Re: Shaming Sanctions As Punishment (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 10:29:19 AM EST
    Shaming is not. When teachers ask their students to stand in the corner for a time-out, that is shame punishment. No big deal. It is in my town, but not where I grew up. That's exactly why I would never send my son to the Parochial School I went to. Shame created a lot of sneaky, manipulative children who developed hierarchical social groups based on exposure to and ability to tolerate shame.

    Shaming Sanctions As Punishment | 23 comments (23 topical)