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Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 05:20:36 AM EST
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There is a serious gag order imposed on lawyers who visit their clients at Guantanamo. Nonetheless, today we get a glimpse of the detention conditons from defense attorney Thomas Wilner, who says that by comparison, Charles Manson is living in a palace.

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    Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 12:50:00 AM EST
    Well its about like most U.S Government prisons, without rape and mass murder.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:34:06 AM EST
    Love you too, Ricky. Hugs and hugs. CA - These are not common criminals. They are not charged with robbing a Quicki-Mart, or snatching purses from old ladies. If you attack a country, then you get held captive. And, once upon a time, hanged by the neck after a miliyary tribunal determines your guilt.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:48:07 AM EST
    PPJ - as you are well aware their guilt has not been established. Besides, to be a humane country we need to treat everyone humanely. That doesn't mean plasma tvs but it does mean they should have the basics and be treated humanely PPJ - and this day is different for you how?

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#7)
    by wishful on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:50:51 AM EST
    PPJ says, They are not charged with... They are not charged. Period. That's not the American way. At least, it didn't used to be. OT, go over to Body and Soul (TL has a link). This little girl wasn't charged either, but she sure was sentenced. And the soldiers that we made do this were sentenced as well.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#8)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 08:00:45 AM EST
    These are not common criminals. They are not charged with robbing a Quicki-Mart...etc...
    Well that's the point. They have not been convicted of anything. They have not even been charged with anything. They don't even have prisoner of war status. Many, I suspect, were detained on the say-so of personal enemies.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 09:05:54 AM EST
    But what happens when the terrorists make a deal with bush and business? think that can't happen? I can see it now, bush yelling out his love for bin laden as a real muslim, just wait and see what happens over the next 3 years. Yes! Bush the real Muslim, and hell he will call all of you enemies of the real faith. And the left and right can all say we need our real faith back of the ideals of the "islamo" Gods.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    PPJ finally gets it right: THEY HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME. I, for one, am demanding that if they are not charged, THEN THEY SHOULD BE PROMPTLY RELEASED. Otherwise, our constitution is toilet paper.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 09:32:37 AM EST
    Pesky f***ing constitution. Why should the leader of the free world be shackled by the demands of the lumpenproletariat (I learned it... I want to use it!)and that silly self-evident truth stuff. Saddam and Osama are scum and they get to do what ever they want... Ashcroft!!!!! Come here quick! And bring that Gonzales guy with you...this bill of rights is cramping my style again!!

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#12)
    by Andreas on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:16:05 AM EST
    "Poker Player" wrote:
    If you attack a country, then you get held captive. And, once upon a time, hanged by the neck after a miliyary tribunal determines your guilt.
    This obviously means that according to "Poker Player" George W. Bush should expect to be "hanged by the neck" in the future. I agree with that but I expect a war crimes tribunal to determine his guilt.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:29:35 AM EST
    In the eyes of Bush And Boys our Bill of rights is toilet paper and as far as the boys care we are also toilet paper each of you mean nothing to the power of the Oligarchies and our nobility elite need you to become just like mexico/ nightmare\enemies of the state\mass corruption\ child rape and murder as a normal way of life\ work for nothing\mass imprisonment of the population by de facto, and let us not forget, cats and dogs! but the part but "the government want you poor and your kids and you in some kind of full political and economic slavery is really what its all about and Guantanamo is the test bed for this movement. so have fun, you our all on the way to Guantanamo and you don't know it.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 11:29:03 AM EST
    SD - How about we let you house a couple of these dudes? I'm sure they would make great house guests. Lavocat - I didn't say they weren't charged. I said they aren't charged with a common crime like robbery or purse snatching. Do you confuse easily? But let's say that they are just your garden variety Taliban type fighters. Would you release them? Warning this is an IQ test question. desertswine - You fall into Lavocat's hole. "Many, I suspect, were detained on the say-so of personal enemies." And why do you suspect this outside of what your buddies have told you? Wishful - Hey, here is a link you will like. Iranian Mullah's hang 16 year old girl for cause men to rape her. Or maybe you'd enjoy some shots of people commiting suicide by jumping out windows of the WTC on 9/11. BTW - Are you trying to say that we just routinely shoot up cars? If so, I think what you say is that we shoot up cars that do not stop when ordered. Shame on you for not making that distinction.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 11:46:52 AM EST
    From PPJ, Wishful - Hey, here is a link you will like. Iranian Mullah's hang 16 year old girl for cause men to rape her. Or maybe you'd enjoy some shots of people commiting suicide by jumping out windows of the WTC on 9/11. BTW - Are you trying to say that we just routinely shoot up cars? If so, I think what you say is that we shoot up cars that do not stop when ordered. Shame on you for not making that distinction. It seems that you grossly misjudge me, on every count.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 12:18:47 PM EST
    SD - How about we let you house a couple of these dudes? I'm sure they would make great house guests
    . Talk about a non-response by PPJ; completely pointless

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 05:28:51 PM EST
    SD - Well, you are the one concerned about their welfare. Come on. Chip in. Make A Difference. Dearest wishful? No Name? Do I? You know, the picture of the little girl is terrible. But tell me. Why didn't her parents(?)stop when told to? Are our troops supposed to not stop cars, which have been proven efffectibe killers as "car bombs?" Should we just take our chances? If you think so, that is pure nonsense And if you are concerned about children, how do you justify the Plastenian teenagers blowing themselves up to kill Jews? The most puzzling part of the new Left is their anti-Jewish position. But, when you consider that Israel is an ally, then you understand. If it is pro America, in their minds, it is wrong. Sad, sad, sad. That so many could he so ignorant.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:33:03 PM EST
    Jim, ignorant IMHO you aint qualified to use that word, except about yourself. If the troops weren't there this inocent family wouldn't have been destroyed and the little girl would still have her mummy and daddy. USA = Terrorist State, with weapons (to quote you) "that stagger the mind". You support this, ergo, PPJ (aka Jim) = Supporter of Terrorism

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 06:58:48 PM EST
    The most puzzling part of the new Left is their anti-Jewish position.
    This of course is pure crap. Its the same old ploy if you don't blindly support jewish policy then you hate jews. Its amazing that they are so quick to play the race/religion card.
    And if you are concerned about children, how do you justify the Plastenian teenagers blowing themselves up to kill Jews?
    Another straw man. I don't see anyone justifying it. Lets turn the tables how can you justify the killing of so many Palestinian children by the IDF? The diferrence is that many on 5the left see both as wrong. You PPJ don't care how many Palestinian, Muslim, Iraqi, etc women and children are killed, tortured rape etc. You have proven to be morally bankrupt. I know its a glimpse into the obvious

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 07:16:10 PM EST
    PPJ: I have to hand it to you, you've got the guile and bile of Neocon logic (i.e., no logic at all, just bait-and switch rhetoric) down to a science. Let's look at the guile and innuendo that you pass off as logic, shall we? Your first post states: 1) "These are not common criminals." Well, correct, until they are even charged with a crime, there can be no determination made as to whether they have even done anything illegal. Then you state: 2) "They are not charged with robbing a Quicki-Mart, or snatching purses from old ladies." Again, correct, and beating a dead horse - THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH COMMITTING A CRIME!!!!! Then you juxtapose this beaut of a non-sequitur: 3) "If you attack a country, then you get held captive and once upon a time, hanged by the neck after a military tribunal determines your guilt." So, the law, in your world, applies only to those "common" crimes, and one would need to be charged. But more serious crimes result in the waiver of the law and the need to charge. If anything, the reverse is true. The more serious the alleged crime, the more protections that are afforded the accused - if only because the stakes are that much higher - and any mistake can be deadly. So, by your "logic", if the alleged offense is outrageous enough ("attacking a country"), there is no need to charge; we can merely assume guilt. It is abundantly clear that you really have no concept whatsoever of Anglo-American jurisprudence. Furthermore, using your own "logic", both the U.S. armed forces currently in Iraq and the U.S. administration should therefore be subject to being secreted away for years on end, without the need for formal charges, as they are all "attacking a country". You fell into a trap of your own making. The law doesn't just apply to some of us but to all of us. Take off the unilateralist blinders and see the U.S. as the rest of the world does. You do not have a monopoly on moral righteousness. But you do have your head up your ass. Your argument only works when you happen to be the one holding the gun.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#21)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 07:55:12 PM EST
    You know, the picture of the little girl is terrible. But tell me. Why didn't her parents(?)stop when told to? No way to find out, because they got killed. At least we know, posthumously, that they weren't terrorists. And that's a good thing, right?

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 03:53:10 AM EST
    It's really appalling that the lack of due process and the problems connected therewith are lost on Jim and his friends. I think most progressives are not in favor of turning these people loose, we are in favor of charging them with crimes if there is adequate evidence, releasing them if there is not adequate evidence. We are not in favor of holding them over a period of years torturing them and hoping that evidence will be gathered to support the extended detentions. The extended detention approach without due process is antithetical to our community standards of justice. I hold out hope that as time goes by, more and more "redstaters" will wake up to the fact that the US may be committing huge mistakes in the way we have responded to the tragedy of September 11, 2001. The wake-up will not relieve the suffering of innocents who have been swept up in the hysteria and the consequences to this country from these injustices is a great concern.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 06:52:46 AM EST
    FD - Yes, your opinion is humble, and it has every reason to be so. CA - Trust me. I understand due process, why we have it, etc. What you don't understand is that I do not believe that non-US citziens who are involved in a war against us rates due process. The obvious reasons are many. First, bail. Would you give them bail? If so, how much? How would you get'em back if they jumped? Secondly, evidence trail. How do you keep that "pure" in battlefield conditions. Third, right confront the accuser. How do we bring every soldier who captured an illeghal to a "trial?" There's more. I think you know that, but your hope is the system would become so hopelessly clogged that it would grind to a stop. Repack writes - "No way to find out, because they got killed. At least we know, posthumously, that they weren't terrorists." Actually, we don't know if they were, or if they weren't. Again. It is sad. But you know what? We didn't ignore the UN sanctions, Iraq did. You know what? We didn't fly into Mecca. Terrorists did. And Iraq was friendly to terrorists. Lavocat - How do you know they haven't been charged? You don't. And all of your other babble is just that. Now, repeat after me. Non-US citizens do not get the same rights as citizens. Gesh. SD - If you worry about children in Iraq, surely you worry about them in Palestine. Don't you? And if you do, don't you condem children involved in suicide bombings? And those who teach them to die? The difference is in intent. Since you are undoubtedly a strong believer in due process for everyone, no matter where, no matter what, don't you see the clear difference between children being killed in military operaations, as opposed to children being killed by teaching them to be suicide bombers?

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:46:26 AM EST
    IMHO = In My HONEST Opinion Won't be using that again.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:49:17 AM EST
    ..don't you see the clear difference between children being killed in military operaations, as opposed to children being killed by teaching them to be suicide bombers? NOPE The USA does BOTH

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:56:43 AM EST
    PPJ - always trying to justify the slaughter of innocent muslims, palestinians etc. Yes they are different in some aspects but they are both wrong given the sheer disregard by the IDF for the children. Exactly how many children have been used as suicide bombers?

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 10:23:18 AM EST
    SD: how many child suicide bombers do you find acceptable? After all, it's strictly a matter of resources, no? In other posts you've equated IDF target assassination of known Hamas operatives with Palestinean suicide bombers who take out civilians. This I find a monstrous and despicable example of moral equivalency on your part. But it is part and parcel of the left these days.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 01:12:21 PM EST
    Duece you are full of it, I never said they were equivalent. I never do that analysis, thats what you guys do to try and excuse your side. As in they are worse so we are ok. A matter of resources? what a crock. My question was meant to try and get PPJ to back up his claim with numbers, since he makes it sound like it happens every day. I say its pretty rare. I have criticized the IDF for the killing of civilians including children. I feel the killing of innocents by either side is wrong. I have also stated that extrajudical assassinations are illegal, even if the people deserved it [ not all of them did} now go back and make up more straw men and vague claims.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 04:05:29 PM EST
    FD - Ignorant statement. SD - The IDF responds to the attacks, and to the nests of terrorists in Palestine. You know that, I know that. So why do you always excuse the Palestinians? Why do you hate the only democracy in the ME? Well, let me see. You did agree with OBL's assessment of the US. Maybe there is a clue in that.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 06:40:33 PM EST
    FD writes - "The US murders people in Iraq. That's what you call military operations." Uh, no. Murder - "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." You have no argument, just claims. Good day!

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 07:18:17 PM EST
    A "true democracy" dosnt authorize descrimination based on religion or ethnic affiliation - but then,with apologies to Orwell,some(kosher) pigs are more democratic than others. PPJ,in true totalitarian fashion,you certainly have the party-line down - right dowm to the most meagre jot and tittle.Oh yeah, and youre"not a neo-con".Right.You sound like Charlie Krauthammer's man-servent. Nice playing the anti-semitism card too,as-in Jew = Zionist - cute propaganda tactic that works quite well,Im sure,on the stupid - that full of "values" base of yours,in other words.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 10:28:30 PM EST
    Jim. This is what I was trying to say. The US murders people in Iraq. That's what you call military operations. Just because it's an American Soldier that does the killing does not make it right. Your troops are bound by legal conventions to protect civilians. If the security situation is so bad that your troops sh*t themselves every time a car drives up then that is the responsibility of the people who planned (or failed to plan) for this mess. Why are people motivated to be suicide bombers? Because of all the love and understanding they get from the USA and her allies? No, because of the death and destruction visited on their communities. It is often forgotten that twice as many Palestinians have been killed in the conflict with Israel than have Israelis. Weapons that were designed for use against the massed tank formations of the USSR are routinely used against civilian population centers. The suicide bomber is often classed as somehow morally inferior to the USAF pilot dropping bombs from 10,000 feet. I'm sure you'd feel better if they had bombers of their own. At least they would be fighting "like the white man". People have the right to resist oppression with whatever means they have. Being a resistance fighter means you are probably going to die if you stand up against a vastly superior enemy. The suicide bomber is the most effective weapon they have at their disposal and there seems to be no shortage of people willing to undertake these acts. The USA is the most terrifying force in the world today. Its tactics revolve around terrifying people, it's perceived enemies and it's own people. It acts in completely illegal ways, even by it's own laws. It creates myths of secret all powerful enemies that will sweep America into the sea unless thousands of innocent people are "necessarily" sacrificed. Is it a surprise that those that resist it have to take up the same weapons of terror? Terror breeds terror. [remainder deleted due to length]

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:43:57 PM EST
    Jim, tell us again how these detainees never had it so good.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:39:13 AM EST
    Good edit TL. Less is more.

    Re: Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:54:16 AM EST
    Jim's response to the killing of palestinian innocents -"But they started it"

    Lawyer For Guantanamo Detainee Speaks Out | 32 comments (32 topical)