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Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying

The New York Times reports on an "extraordinary army" of secret Commandos working in the U.S..

The special-missions units belong to the Joint Special Operations Command, a secretive command based at Fort Bragg, N.C., whose elements include the Army unit Delta Force.

This is the group that was put into play for security at the Inauguration. They are part of a program called "Power Geyser." The first mention of the group is on a website for a book just released by former Army intelligence analyst William Arkin.

In a nutshell, the problem with this is the Posse Commitatus Act of 1878, which prevents the U.S. Military from acting as law enforcement officers inside the U.S. Amazingly, the article quotes a single, unnamed civil liberties advocate who says that "as described" by the reporter, he had no problem with it.

Patrick at the Samuel Coleridge Foundation outlines the problems, here's just a snippet, read is whole post:

So here's the problem: the (now crumbling) legal wall that was erected in the Nineteenth Century to keep the US military from tyrannizing US citizens is now one more scrap of paper in Alberto Gonzales' trash can for quaint old laws. Its origins are interestingly tainted: the main part of the drive to enact it was because Federal troops were attempting to guard the civil right of universal suffrage in a south that strove to keep blacks away from the polls. But regardless of the bad birth, by and large it has been good that the hand that would unleash US troops on the American citizenry has been restrained.

Now, in The Post-9/11 World Where Everything Has Changed, our administration sees no need to follow this law even pro-forma, by going through the requisite authorization by Congress or declaration of an emergency by the President...they simply put the troops in place, counting on the idea that any subsequent challenge can be cleared by the courts after the fact.

...But what happens, if something happens? Our troops are not trained or equipped to perform in an American city without bringing to it what they brought to Fallujah. Their rifle bullets will pass easily through residential walls; their grenades will kill at a range of several meters. They are trained to eliminate any potential threat during execution of a mission. In contrast, our law enforcement personnel are trained to protect and preserve the lives of the citizens, and to use deadly force only when required.

.....if you look to the past, the citizens of a police state have never ended up better off, or safer. Because once we accept this step, the next will come, and we'll accept that too: maybe dangerous suspects that might have weapons will justify apprehension by the military...then suspicions that a suspect might be hiding in a neighborhood will justify entry and search by the military...then inability to exactly determine a suspect will justify large-scale detention and interrogation by the military.

18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act ofCongress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

[Updated to delete reference to 13,000 which pertained to the total number of officers doing security)

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  • Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 11:29:08 AM EST
    Praetorian guard anyone? Isn't that more than the amount of troops in Afghanistan? Hey, maybe that's why the search for WMD ended last week?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    So, did Bush secretly waive posse comatatus on an unending basis for vague domestic goals? Sounds like yet one more impeachable offense. What can these military forces do that the FBI can't? More law than the pc is being broken by this, for sure. How many secret state of emergency orders is Bush using to remove his enemies?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#3)
    by wishful on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 12:46:22 PM EST
    Does anyone remember when Tom DeLay got Tom Ridge to illegally order Homeland Security to mobilize military aircraft to locate Texas Democrats. They were trying to stop the currently-in-litigation gerrymandering by leaving the state? What ever happened to those taking illegal action? Oh. Nothing. Right.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 01:39:48 PM EST
    Are we ending up paying them to do to us what we payed them for so long to do to Salvadorans,Congolese, Haitians,Iranians etc etc.? Thank you sir - may I have another? Right Jim?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 01:50:31 PM EST
    TL - you read too quickly. The story doesn't say there is a group of 13,000 commandos with this special duty. It says that a very small (and highly classified) number of such commandos was among the 13,000 police, military, and federal agents who altogether were assigned to guard the inauguration.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 02:43:16 PM EST
    Important correction: the NYT article does not claim that there were "13,000 secret commandos." It states that "a small group" of secret commandos was "part of the extraordinary army of 13,000 troops, police officers and federal agents marshaled to secure the inauguration."

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 03:47:24 PM EST
    Thanks to both commenters for pointing out the error. I will fix it.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#8)
    by chris on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 04:20:28 PM EST
    Ever since the DoD started sending Marines on "urban warfare" exercises in American cities (I helped organize one response back in the day). On 12 September 2001, as I watched young kids from the Guard take over the Armory in New York, nervously hefting their weapons and trying to look tough, I could have predicted the scenario in that Post article. The main question now is, how can we respond? Perhaps most critically, how can we get the commandos themselves to question this domestic mission?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 04:31:54 PM EST
    The main question now is, how can we respond? Perhaps most critically, how can we get the commandos themselves to question this domestic mission?
    Odds are that you won't ever achieve that. Their "specialized training" would prevent it. At least that's what I think. It's truly horrific to think of some of the things the shrub has done via executive orders... I thought Republicans were against big government? LOL

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#10)
    by Linkmeister on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 05:33:48 PM EST
    Ah, Todd, you forget. Ever since Richard Nixon they've been the "law and order" party. That trumps "small government" every time.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 07:50:51 PM EST
    How long have commandos been operating inside the US? What or who have their other missions or targets been? Have any of them been political, prior to the Bush affair this month? Gee, it would be so nice if there were people and organizations whose job it was to find out stuff that was new and important and communicate it. We could call them "reporters" and "news organizations." It would create jobs!

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#12)
    by Adept Havelock on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 08:00:08 PM EST
    I'd really appreciate some observations on how this relates to Posse Comitatus. Seems to me that this would be a flagrant violation. What loophole allows this if it isn't a violation?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 08:08:27 PM EST
    Consent of Congress.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 08:38:14 PM EST
    Here is some info on JSOC. JSOC units regularly conduct training with similar units from around the world, and provide training to nations that request US support. JSOC has also provide support to domestic law enforcement agencies during high profile, or high risk events such as the Olympics, the World Cup, political party conventions; and Presidential inaugurations. The full text of PDD-25 is reported to exempt the Joint Special Operations Command from the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 18USC Sec.1385, PL86-70, Sec. 17[d]. which makes it illegal for military and law enforcement to exercise jointly.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 11:02:47 PM EST
    The scandals are coming! The scandals are coming! The reason why our country continues to be habitable is that violating our civil rights leads inevitably to BAD RESULTS. For instance, NORAD's standing orders shouldn't have been changed by Rumsfeld in July 01. He also shouldn't have pretended that he had nothing to do with 911, but that's a different topic. Bush shouldn't have taken the whole month of August off, after threatening Afghanistan, in July 01, with invasion in October. Oops, but again, a different topic. It would have been best if Ashcroft would have listened to FBI agent & whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, rather than have the FBI investigating CA medical marijuana clinics and Bush family political enemies. But that's a different topic, too. Extraordinary measures may be necessary to secure the safety of Americans. But destroying American's ability to travel by making everyone hate our guts, AND giving away 4,000 shoulder-fired missiles to persons unknown in Iraq, probably not among those measures. Gonzales can crawl up our rectums, but it probably won't make us safer. That won't stop him from loosing the dogs for secret political purposes. But IF the only way we can be safer is to have secret police serving Bush's political expediency -- well, we've already seen how well that 'works,' and what comes out of the windows is not confetti.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 11:59:21 PM EST
    What have I been saying about what is coming down on all of you? come on people this is an empire and in any empire it takes time to get all the people in line to do as the king wants you to do! that is why our borders are opened and our government boy's are telling you so many differant stoies about this war, like how many iraqis have joined up to fight against the so called terrorists and soon many of you will be inside soon cell. and yes the death of posse commitatus is not a good sign for any of us. third world here we come, with hands up in the air, and all yelling how did this happen to me and you and the guy on the tree. have a nice day, and where are your papers?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:56:08 AM EST
    Fred, a free people...not so easy to subdue into tyranny. Don't confuse temporary 'successes' with retaining one's gains. Bush is in deep, deep doo-doo. Worse than Watergate, sure. But also worse off than Nixon. Second terms are brutal, anyhow. Try making most of the country your enemy first; try burning down every diplomatic tie with a first world country on the earth. Try trying to run from a MOUNTAIN of legal cases, and lower-downs trying to keep their arses out of jail by turning on their superiors. G. Gurdjieff used to warn against the apparent ease of a ride down the mountain on a sled. The road to hell is paved with $Republicans, and they are slick. But getting dragged face down with his foot stuck in the bumper of his past crimes, not likely to be as much fun as lording it over a horrified populace. As Jerry Ford famously said, "Anyone who needs a list for his enemies, has too many enemies." Bush's list reads like the phone book, and tens of millions of Americans have dedicated themselves to bringing Bush & his cronies to justice. That can't be good for the would-be Boy King.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:35:33 AM EST
    In a nutshell, the problem with this is the Posse Commitatus Act of 1878, which prevents the U.S. Military from acting as law enforcement officers inside the U.S.
    The Posse Comitatus Act does not prevent the US Military from acting as law enforcement officers inside the U.S. It prevents the Army or Air Force (but not the Navy, including the Marine Corps, though similar restrictions are extended to them by a DoD Directive, which, of course, is an executive act that the executive can withdraw, modify, or alter at will) from being used for such a purpose except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress. However, the President has broad discretionary expressly given for just that purpose by Congress in various statutes. See 10 USC 331-334. Furthermore, there is already specific statutory allowance for the Attorney General, as well, to use the military in this way in the case of certain matters relating to nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons and materials. See 18 USC 831, 18 USC 382.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:26:25 AM EST
    The Posse Comitatus Act does not prevent the US Military from acting as law enforcement officers inside the U.S. It prevents the Army or Air Force (but not the Navy, including the Marine Corps ... [snip] Well now, I was a little perplexed at the notion that a 19th-century law would be mentioning a branch of the service that wouldn't come into existence until halfway through the following century, so I went and looked at the full text. I found: Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel: The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law. Based on this, I don't think any branch of the Armed Forces is immune from posse comitatus.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:16:18 AM EST
    10 USC 375 only limits activities under the the enabling legislation for expanded military support for civilian law enforcement under 10 USC Chapter 18, of which it is a part. This chapter, which went into force on Dec. 1, 1981, includes 10 USC 378, "Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to limit the authority of the executive branch in the use of military personnel or equipment for civilian law enforcement purposes beyond that provided by law before December 1, 1981." IOW, the limits in 18 USC 375 apply to the expanded cooperation authorized in the same chapter, but do not limit what was already allowed by law. The pre-existing and continuing law is 18 USC 1385: "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." This is the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 (which has been amended and moved about with changes in codification). Note that the Navy and Marine Corps are not included. But even more important to note is that both provisions except uses expressly authorized elsewhere in law, of which there are several that I mentioned earlier.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:32:35 AM EST
    I love facts (or to view what is/was actually printed/said) it makes reading these blogs so much more, well so much more!!!

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:01:37 PM EST
    I thought that after the terrible things our gov't did in the sixties and seventies, we realized we shouldn't spy on ourselves. It's just SOOOOOO UnAmerican.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:48:26 PM EST
    Anyone think Rumsfeld cares?

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:29:16 AM EST
    That Nuremberging we're working on in Germany is going to wipe that smirk off Rumsfeld's face. But the soldiers themselves handed him his arse in front of the entire world. That was politically fatal. They're just turning up the music because he is just as much damaged goods as Riceliar. "No one ever thought that airliners would be used as missiles!!" Yeah? That's pretty quick thinking for a National Security Advisor.

    Re: Secret Commandos Doing Domestic Spying (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 06:28:36 PM EST
    Anyone know when this program "Power Geyser" was created and who was President at the time? I'll give you a hint: It wasn't Bush.