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America Needs to Look in the Mirror

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:41:29 PM EST
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There is an excellent article by Andrew Moravcsik in Newsweek contrasting the Bushite view of America with how others see us. The writer says the difference is nowhere more apparent than in Bush's inaugural speech, with its over-hyped use of the words freedom and liberty.

For many in the world, the president's rhetoric confirmed their worst fears of an imperial America relentlessly pursuing its narrow national interests. But the greater danger may be a delusional America—one that believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that the American Dream lives on, that America remains a model for the world, one whose mission is to spread the word.

The gulf between how Americans view themselves and how the world views them was summed up in a poll last week by the BBC. Fully 71 percent of Americans see the United States as a source of good in the world. More than half view Bush's election as positive for global security. Other studies report that 70 percent have faith in their domestic institutions and nearly 80 percent believe "American ideas and customs" should spread globally.

Foreigners take an entirely different view: 58 percent in the BBC poll see Bush's re-election as a threat to world peace. Among America's traditional allies, the figure is strikingly higher: 77 percent in Germany, 64 percent in Britain and 82 percent in Turkey. Among the 1.3 billion members of the Islamic world, public support for the United States is measured in single digits. Only Poland, the Philippines and India viewed Bush's second Inaugural positively.

The worst part is that the new anti-Amercian feelings may outlast Bush:

Tellingly, the anti-Bushism of the president's first term is giving way to a more general anti-Americanism.....Says Doug Miller of GlobeScan, which conducted the BBC report: "President Bush has further isolated America from the world. Unless the administration changes its approach, it will continue to erode America's good name, and hence its ability to effectively influence world affairs."

So now we not only have a President who is an unwise choice for America, we have one who is doing permanent damage to America's image in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Update: Similar thoughts are expressed in this Financial Times article by Michael Lind today:

Nor is American democracy a shining example to mankind. The present one-party rule in the US has been produced in part by the artificial redrawing of political districts to favour Republicans, reinforcing the domination of money in American politics. America's judges -- many of whom will be appointed by Mr Bush -- increasingly behave as partisan political activists in black robes. America's antiquated winner-take-all electoral system has been abandoned by most other democracies for more inclusive versions of proportional representation."

[hat tip Fred]

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    America Needs to Look in the Mirror | 47 comments (47 topical)
    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:59:11 PM EST
    Well, that should solve our immigration problem!

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#2)
    by Andreas on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 01:38:57 PM EST
    Talkleft wrote:
    we have [a president] who is doing permanent damage to America's image in the eyes of the rest of the world.
    He is doing permanent damage to the whole world (including America).

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 01:42:18 PM EST
    Not the whole world, Andreas, just 99% of it. The richest 1% are doing quite well under Bush.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 01:55:25 PM EST
    Those 1%, of course, being Saudi princes and people who rent out Caribbean post office boxes - oh, excuse me, I mean highly legitimate corporations - as tax shelters for the ultra-wealthy.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#5)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:11:54 PM EST
    ahhh, class-bigotry raises its odious head once more. FWIW, as part of the US 1% (in terms of income, not net worth) I did better, actually, under Clinton than either of the Bushes. And, during some of the Reagan years, I lived under the official poverty line. But, getting back to the subject, I'm sure anti-Americanism will increase in the future. As the EU continues its decline, who else will they have to blame?

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:17:47 PM EST
    It was pretty funny when the unnamed aides rushed forward last Friday and had to assure the world that the Preznit really **didn't** mean what he said literally that we were suddenly going to remove every "tyranny" on the face of the earth. Probably like Musharrif and the Saudis, we then all breathed a huge sigh of relief to know the words "freedom" and "tyranny" simply were empty words that we could use to describe the status quo in falsely superior terms: a "freedom" where millions can go to prison for using politically-incorrect drugs, or the "tyranny" of having culture warriors cram down their views on matters of personal choice like abortions, death with dignity, etc. Bleech... J

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#7)
    by Peaches on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:19:58 PM EST
    Those 1%, of course, being Saudi princes and people who rent out Caribbean post office boxes... and, of course - let's not forget - our very own ppj.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:29:28 PM EST
    and, of course - let's not forget - our very own ppj. Yes and the rest of the Trailer Park Republicans (those making less than $500k/year)

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:29:54 PM EST
    The author has a point. We, as a nation and as individuals, should stop from time to time and take a good hard look at what we are doing and what we have become. This is only common sense. Now if only the rest of the world would do the same thing, for they too are far from perfect in their relationships, and they too suffer in the opinions of a significant number of Americans. If we are supposed to give a damn what the French think about us, shouldn't they also care what we think about them, for they are hardly a nation with a pristine history.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#10)
    by marty on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:46:43 PM EST
    I think the reason conservatives don't care about how the rest of the world views the U.S. is because is that conservatives understand we left these nations for a plethora of reasons, not the least of which most of them suck.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:49:23 PM EST
    Last I checked justpaul, France has not claimed to be the "great liberator" in a century or so, nor have any of their leaders claimed "we are the most giving nation on the planet" which of course relative to GDP is completely incorrect. In fact, relative to gdp we are one of the worst of 26 nations on a regular basis with respect to giving. When you have to pound your chest and scream that you are great, it does not mean that you are great, it only makes you loud.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:51:44 PM EST
    And the madness of that old world will eat us alive. and the myth of that great lie is still in the mind of that fool, of the goodness of the other ones, and all that mumbo-jumbo of lies on lies do wait in drak places. have a nice day, and love will set you free. I am happy to be old as the hills.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:59:04 PM EST
    We can't control what the rest of the world does. In the recent past I would suggest that we as a nation have not looked in the mirror. The brain washing starts in schools where a nationalistic form of history is taught without much reference to the warts. It continues with the politicians who cast their campaign rhetoric in soaring idealistic terms. And finally the media propagates many of the American myths by their selective presentation of the news. This has never been more evident than in the last 4 years. The real purpose of taking a real hard look at out history and the present is not so that we can flog ourselves, but as a first step not to repeat the errors of the past and thus make things better. Better policies can not come about until the limitations of the current/past policies are brought into sharp focus. Then you can move on to new ideas. Is the mess in Iraq that big of a surprise. Look at the British involvement in the '20s. How did the misadventures of T. Roosevelt and Wilson turn out? Wasn't there anything we could have learned from that? On the otherside of the coin, doesn't the success of patience and political involvement and the nuturing of democratic ideals in eastern Europe which helped to speed the fall in Communism tell us anything about how to proceed? But to these guys there is no history, no past, and they are under the delusion that they can make the present and future simply by decalring their wishes and ideas.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:07:22 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, France was just an example, but before you go consigning their misdeeds to the ash heap of ancient history, you might want to talk to the Algerians and the Vietnamese. Or ask the muslims living in France how welcomed they feel. You might also want to have a chat with the nations of Eastern Europe, which face what they see as a power grab by Germany, Belgium, and France in the EU. Russia is another fine example: Go ask the Ukranians how they feel about Russian foreign policy. Or maybe ask the Tibetans and the Taiwanese what they think of Chinese imperial politics. I'm sure the South Koreans would have a few choice words for you on the subject of North Korean views on human rights and geopolitics. And let's not forget all those exemplars of peace, love, and understanding in the Middle East who just love to complain about U.S. actions. You could try talking to some of their own citizens about what they are up to, but you just might get shot for it. The point is not that America doesn't do anything that other nations have a right to be upset about. And if you re-read what I said, you'll see I'm agreeing with the author; we as a nation do need to take a look at ourselves. But not because what we are doing is upsetting the French, the Germans, or any other nation, but rather because it is the right thing to do, especially if we're going to have a president proclaiming us to be some sort of guiding light to the rest of the world. The rest of the world should do the same.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:47:32 PM EST
    A while back in time about 1970 +- 2 there was a song out Titled " And when I saw America you know it blew my mind". Seems it is real easy for us to forget and easy to be controled. 9/11 saw a large increase in war movies and media folks saying we will support Washington. We have primo media and it is used as told. Plug Book Oil and Blood by Michael T. Klare Best Bill

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:54:25 PM EST
    (slowly, with feeling) No, no, no, We don't love you anymore.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:59:04 PM EST
    "I think the reason conservatives don't care about how the rest of the world views the U.S. is because is that conservatives understand we left these nations for a plethora of reasons, not the least of which most of them suck." Well Marty, unless you're planning to move to another planet (and clearly you're living on a different planet already), you'd better care, because what happens in other countries impacts us here. You can't have the benefits of a connected world (and its oil!) and pull up the drawbridges at the same time. Even Bush's daddy understood that.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 04:22:35 PM EST
    Dennis-Don't do it! Enough American lives are being needlessly snuffed out in Iraq. Stick around and help those of us who still believe take our country back! Soccerdad-your comments really hit home. My son is studying Teddy Roosevelt and that era of American imperialism and arrogance and it struck both of us how much the rhetoric from the early 20th century sounded like the same crap that is coming from this administration. This is what we get when we elect an ignoramus. He probably was goofing off when his 8th grade class was studying Roosevelt. There is a place for some reflection and intellect in our leadership. But my fellow citizens would rather elect a "guy you'd like to have a beer with." And we wonder why the rest of the world feels alienated from America.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 04:42:46 PM EST
    SD writes - "The real purpose of taking a real hard look at out history and the present is not so that we can flog ourselves, but as a first step not to repeat the errors of the past..." The simple fact is if we changed the past, we would not be the country we are now. That, and the fact that it can't be done, leads me to believe that your comment is just an excuse to attack the US. Did we do wrong things? Yes. Are we better now than we were then? Yes. Will we better in the future than we are now? Yes. Should we care what the rest of the world thinks? Not unless paying attention to them will provide us some positive benefit besides some mythical brotherly love and caring. et al - Nations do not have friends. Nations have self interests. Quit deluding yourself that anything we do will change that. When Europe realizes they have a problem with radical moslems they will join the parade. Until then, they will not. The historical fact that they failed to recognize the problems Germany was starting to present and didn't take action when it would have been both effective and cheap proves nothing beyond the fact that they learned nothing.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 04:51:24 PM EST
    I guess we only pay attention to other nations when we feel like spreading some "freedom" or occupation. Globalization of the economy means we *do* have to pay attention to the rest of the world and realize that encouraging the rise of extreme religious fundamentalists inside and outside the US is damaging to the US and other countries. Walmart and others impact the *world* economy, not just the US economy. So, blundering into Iraq is damaging in terms of economic recovery and growth around the world. If you are busy making war, or terrorism, you tend not to have too much time to put into the legitimate economic structure.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 05:02:19 PM EST
    PPJ of course twists everything in an attempt to generate another attack. No one said anything about changing the past. We are here today, there are lessons to be learned about what works and what doesn't. We can learn or go on in blissfull ignorance until you are up to your eyeballs in another pile of crap. PPJ says nations don't have friends they have self interest. Its that kind of thinking that got us into this Iraq mess. Its also counter to the globalization of the world's economies. You need allies. You don;t have any unless you treat them decently

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    Justpaul, where do I start? The muslims in France? Are you referring to the headscarf rule or attitudes in general. Because as I know it, our hate crime against muslims far exceeds that of the hate crimes in France, but that is people not gov'ts. Then again, we detained 1200 muslims in the US post 9-11 based on their ethnic background and religious beliefs. I have serious issues with our gov't ignoring Taiwan as they sought independence but in your missive you fail to mention our obvious lack of support relative to independence with a country that can fight back (china). And again, please show me one instance where China claims to be the great liberator or the "greatest nation on the planet", you cannot. The crux of my response to you was the display of ignorance at your statement, especially the comment about France. Every nation has its troubles, but as best I know, only one is touting itself as the "greatest" nation on the planet, when it pales in comparison to Switzerland or Sweden for example. Comparing yourself to those that have a worse human rights record than you do is no different than watching a Jerry Springer show and saying "i am better than them". That said, I still think it is a great country, not the greatest and not without its dysfunctions.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:11:48 PM EST
    brave writes - "So, blundering into Iraq is damaging in terms of economic recovery and growth around the world." And what world wide economic recovery did we impact? Could you be specific? SD - And what actual lessons are there to be learned? That you can be closely associated with countries, such as France and Germany, for years and years when you have mutal defense as self interest. Yet, when that goes away, and France and Germany decides that it is not in their best interests to help us, they refuse. et al - Read The Church Theory written by an actual FSO type person who has actual experience in actual foreign countries for an actual long time. Don't be shocked. He feels the MSM is full of beans.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:18:59 PM EST
    PPJ - Read it but it adds nothing to the argument other than anti-american sentiment is not new and during the clinton administration it was festering. Although, I would argue that it started during the reagan administration and has been getting worse since. What about the story is compelling or scientific or well researched from that manner? Normally, your links provide a reasonable argument based on critical thinking, this is not one of them.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:21:45 PM EST
    The whole world does not hate America, it's mainly the terriosts and the liberal morans in Europe that do. Most of the Iraqie people are glad to be free, thankful for America. In these last days we need to stand up for what is right, nomatter what the rest of the world thinks. We need to stick up for Israel. Peace through superior fire power!!!! Deploymacy does not work with terriosts!!!! I'm glad were rebels, happy to piss off France, go Bush go!

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#26)
    by Adept Havelock on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:37:04 PM EST
    "Reveling in the irony" JR- 1) It's terrorists, not terriosts. 2) It's morons, not morans. (grin) 3) It's Iraqi, not Iraqie. 4) It's no matter, not "nomatter" 5) It's firepower, not "fire power" 6) It's diplomacy, not "Deploymacy" Ahhh...your statement that these are "the last days" explains much to me. - I'm glad we had you, JR, to show us how a real " 'merikan" compares to those "morans from Europe".

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:37:40 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, You're missing the point. The argument being offered is that America should take a look in the mirror because of how others see it. My response was that while it may be true that others see us in a bad light, it is equally true that many Americans see many foreign countries in a bad light, and, if their seeing us in a bad light is reason for us to "take a look in the mirror" then our seeing them in a bad light is equally reason for them to "take a look in the mirror". But as I was trying to say, we need to take a look in the mirror not because France or Germany or Russia or any other country you want to name thinks badly of us, but because it's the proper and wise thing to do. Period. It's right for us and it's right for them, and promoting these lame "Europe thinks we should take a look in the mirror" issues simply feeds the stupidity in the world. But if you want to talk details: No, it's not about the headscarves thing, it's about the fact that the vast majority of muslims living in France are relegated to living in slums on the outsides of towns because they are not really welcome in French society. It's about the fact that Russia lectures us on being "imperialistic" toward Iraq, yet just made every effort under the sun to steal a Ukranian election for its own purposes. I didn't say anything about any other nation laying any claim to being "the great liberator": you read that into it because that's your pet peeve for the minute. If you think that this one idiotic claim is the only reason these countries are annoyed with us, please explain why they have felt that way for years, and not just since last week. But stop and think for a moment, if you're willing to do so, about the inanity of China lecturing us on our actions in Iraq, when we at least have the claim that we are trying to spread freedom while they, on the other hand, are brutally destroying an entire culture in Tibet. Maybe you're willing to overlook that since they haven't claimed to be "the world's liberator", but I think that's a cop out for a "progessive" society. As for displays of ignorance, worry about your own and I'll worry about mine. I'm not trying to compare this country to a country with a worse human rights record. As noted above, I'm pointing out that it is no more idiotic for us to lecture the world than for the world to lecture us. Bush chose words I would have preferred he didn't use, but that doesn't mean his message didn't have a grain of truth in it.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:42:49 PM EST
    Your basis of comparison was France, and your blind retort was more of the same. I understand the crux of your argument but you continue to play the we are not as bad as them game. My "pet peeve" of the moment has been around for nearly 20 years. If you are going to argue the merits of the story do so without taking a shot at another country that does not or has not claimed it is the "greatest in the world". That is my argument which seemingly transcends your cognitive abilities.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:45:24 PM EST
    And you apparently misunderstand my disgust with China and the US for our cowardly behavior toward China. It is cowardly to pick fights with those that cannot mount even a fraction of a defense, it is courageous to stand up against those that can.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 07:01:49 PM EST
    PPJ - if thats all the lesson you have learned from history then you should be ashamed. Must be that public school education.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 08:27:24 PM EST
    JL - The Clinton comment was 30 words out of 1500. Why do you hide behind that? SD - What an inane remark. You deny that history shows, time and again, that nations have self interest, not friends. And then claim to be so well educated? I am LOL. Must have been all those poly sci classess you were taking because you surely didn't study history. Hmmm. Maybe you did study history. The new PC version. Maybe you can go back and pick up some night school classes.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:24:08 PM EST
    It's amazing, the response to this article, amazing in how little insight most of the posters have to the gist of the article. The fact is very simple; the U.S. is a declining power, a declining civilization, a decliming nation. Emmanuel Todd, who predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1979 based on his examination of demographic data, ( the birth rate of Russians vs. birth rate of other Soviet nationalities, income distribution, education etc;), predicts a similar collapse of the U.S. based on demographics. What most Ametricans don't know is how badly they fare internationally on basic social standards. The U.S. has the highest child poverty rate of developed countries, nearly 25%, ( remember that's one oout of FOUR children). Now...if you can think ahead twenty years, ( difficult for Americans trapped as they are in the fifties), imagine these children as members of the U.S. society- undeducated, malnourished, probably obese or overweight, ignorant as all get out, whose only skills are selling drugs, killing, and playing video games. Will they be able to participate in the global market? Now...take a look at educational achievement. The U.S., for all its vaunted advantages, can hardly maintain itsel among developed countries as far as meeting basic educational standards. The problem is particularly accute in science, ( you know, that's the stuff where you really, really have to know and think hard about). Income inequality...the U.S. has the highest, outside of third world countries, ( in fact it equals them). Not very democratic is it? Why should a CEO earn 1,000 times as much as the Joe who actually does the work? Before whining about how other countries don't understand the U.S, or make remarks about other countries' history, ( yes, they did do despicable things but so has the U.S. so it's best not to go there...if one wants to, then respond to slavery, the genocide of Native Americans, institutionalized racism etc;) Americans should really look at the state of their own country. Do you know, for instace, that the number of Food Stamps recipients is at an all time high? Do you know how LITTLE you have to earn before being eligible? The basic problem is ignorance and, unfortunately, most Americans prefer ignorance to truth.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:25:27 PM EST
    Hmm, don't think this is new though, I have heard this story before, years ago, let's see.... democrats is to bourgeois jews, as evangelicals is to protestants, as spread of freedom is to annexation, as patriotism is to fascism, as anti-terrorism is to anti-semitism, as rumsfeld is to jodl, as gonzales is to himmler, as rove is to goebbels, and as bush is to .... Oh my, old story, new characters.... Makes for an interesting new fiction novel isn't it?

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 05:18:31 AM EST
    ppj how can you make statements like we don't need friends in this a globalized world where help is needed in both commerical and defensive purposes?

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 06:22:51 AM EST
    PPJ writes: And what world wide economic recovery did we impact? Could you be specific? Yes, several ways First, how is the Iraq Debacle is good for any country's economy? Has it improved the US economy besides lining the pockets of the already rich? The US "jobs" in Iraq are not really worth the risk to the companies and humans involved. Second, the Iraq Debacle has done nothing to prod the US economy to stronger growth, esp in at-home jobs. It has done nothing to move the Japanese economy out of their 10+ year recession. Look at any place where there is constant conflict and you will see stagnant economy.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#36)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 06:31:24 AM EST
    “ppj how can you make statements like we don't need friends in this a globalized world where help is needed in both commerical and defensive purposes?” Well, I’m not PPJ but I’ll take a stab. Defense is easy; we only need defend our borders. We don’t need ‘friends’ for that. The kind of friendship your referring to is really only useful for interfering in world affairs; partners in crime. Commercial? Look at the Canadians; they can’t stand us. They still sell us 80% of their exports. Even Sadam was willing to do business with the US after the first Iraq/US war.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 06:50:02 AM EST
    PPJ I am not hiding behind the Clinton comment, and I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Do you want me to say that the decline of US world opinion increased or decreased during his tenure or were you simply saying that the article had many other valid arguments? For and FSO to say "when i travel people say they love the us" is not scientific, nor is it enlightening. I travel and I hear the same, I also hear on a regular basis that Bush is an idiot, but that is more likely a result of my political beliefs as the conversation is steered toward my angst of certain US policies. I read it and found it to be highly uninformatative and I was simply stating that previous links you have posted were far more reasoned and researched.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 07:03:14 AM EST
    et al - Nations do not have friends. Nations have self interests. Might it be in our self-interests to have some more friends? Allies? Nations to come to our aide? Nations who might defend our policies versus criticise them? And could it be that it might be in our best-interests (self-interests) if the citizens of other nations did not hate us? Might it be better if citizens of other nations looked to the US as examples of goodness instead of becoming breeding grounds for terrorists?

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 10:01:19 AM EST
    et al - Nations do not have friends. Nations have self interests. I completely agree It´s in the nation´s self interest to uphold good relations with as many countries possible and not to unnecessarily invade foreign countries based on fear and nonexistent threats.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 10:12:02 AM EST
    et al - Nations do not have friends. Nations have self interests. No truer words have ever been posted on this site. It is true today, has been true since time began, and will be true for time immemorial. While you may personally feel (and rightly so, I might add) that it shouldn't be so, don't, as PPJ said, delude yourself for a second that it is not so. Reality is a b*tch as they say.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#41)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 10:55:16 AM EST
    Maybe we should call it the coalition of the self interested. Shhhh. Don't tell England! The Clinton comment was 30 words out of 1500. Why do you hide behind that? Why do you hide bethind one statement by UBL or Gen Giap?

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 11:13:18 AM EST
    Posted by Jlvngstn at January 25, 2005 06:09 PM ...That said, I still think it is a great country, not the greatest and not without its dysfunctions. here, here... need some remodeling work huh!!!

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 11:19:30 AM EST
    Sarc 1says
    No truer words have ever been posted on this site. It is true today, has been true since time began, and will be true for time immemorial
    about ppj comment,
    et al - Nations do not have friends. Nations have self interests.
    It may be a true statement but it says nothing. Nations are not human, so they do not have friends. Actually, nations are do not have selfs so they cannot have self-interests if we want to be technical. They only have interests. We can argue over what are in a nations best interests forever. ppj has one idea of best interests and is an advocate for pre-emptive war being in our nations best interest. Many of the rest of us here feel it is in the US best-interest to always use diplomacy and to reduce our dependence on the war machine presently built in our nation. We see recent $80 billion submission to congress, tax cuts,projected deficits, ss personal accounts, growth in military and defense spending, etc. as leading to an inevitable financial crisis in the US which would not be in our best interests. We see the war in Iraq as decreasing our public image around the world leading to a greater number of individuals and groups to se the US as an threat to world peace. This will likely lead to a greater terroristic threat to the US which is also not in our best-interest. So, Nations attempt to act in their best interests. One way of doing this is to develop and nurture relationships with allies. A true statement, yet hardly insightful.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#44)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 12:12:16 PM EST
    "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." Thomas Jefferson “It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.” George Washinton

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 02:32:31 PM EST
    "National self-interest","indivual self-interest"-this is whats known as the OLD PARADIGM - non-systemic, entropic,and unsustainable in the long term. "What do WE care what the rest of the world think or does,or, for that matter,whether it rains or theres a drought etc etc." This is the self-reinforcing mentality of the meglomaniacs and thier sycophants.

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 09:45:10 PM EST
    So now we not only have a President who is an unwise choice for America, we have one who is doing permanent damage to America's image in the eyes of the rest of the world. That might also have something to do with him being reelected, you know... I think the reason conservatives don't care about how the rest of the world views the U.S. is because is that conservatives understand we left these nations for a plethora of reasons, not the least of which most of them suck. Actually, Marty, America sucks. It sucks to the tune of about $1.5 billion a day. That's money sucked out of foreign pockets to keep your economy afloat. And, strangely enough, we will be wanting that money back soon. China is already making noises about this. And if you don't have our money, we'll just take it out in assets. Your companies. Your trade secrets. Your technologies. You business, houses and jobs. We suck, Marty. But we're also the people who own the credit card you've very nearly maxed out, and pretty soon there's going to be some nasty bills in the mail...

    Re: America Needs to Look in the Mirror (none / 0) (#48)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:40:34 AM EST
    “But we're also the people who own the credit card you've very nearly maxed out, and pretty soon there's going to be some nasty bills in the mail...” It’s not credit it’s an investment you toad. Just like a corporation, if the US tanks so does all those bonds ‘you’ own. Meanwhile ‘you’ are making a return on your investment, enjoy.

    America Needs to Look in the Mirror | 47 comments (47 topical)