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A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Deaths

This was too good to leave in the comments, so I'm making it a post of it's own. From Terry Kindlon:

As a Vietnam Veteran and former Marine Sergeant, and as the father of a Marine Captain (JAG Officer), I must admit that I felt like somebody kicked me in the stomach today when I heard about the CH53 going down with 30 Marines and one sailor aboard.

My company in Vietnam, Echo Company, 2d Battalion, Third Marines, lost 22 KIA in a horrific ambush on one day in December of 1968, and I still think about that every day, even though it's been almost 40 years.

Although Vietnam was a harsh, hot, insane war that killed 58,000 of my colleagues, wounded a few hundred thousand more and left untold numbers psychologically scarred, all for no good reason, it is beginning to seem that our misguided adventure in Iraq, for the soldiers and Marines serving there,is every bit as physically dangerous and probably a lot more emotionally destructive than the War in Vietnam (I'll take the boonies over urban combat any day).

As a criminal defense lawyer I spent a great deal of time, especially in the 1970's and 1980's, working with Vietnam veterans who were suffering through the horrors of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I used to think that we'd learned our lesson and that we'd avoid pointless wars in the future. Guess I was wrong. The Iraq War has already guaranteed another generation of equally troubled vets who will be needing all the psychological and legal help they can get in a few years.

I can't help thinking that if one of the people running the war from a nice, comfy office in Washington had ever spent the night in a foxhole, listening to all those funny noises out there in the dark, or if one of them had ever heard the terrible silence between the time an enemy mortar round leaves the tube and when it lands nearby, or if any one of them had ever held the hand and tried to dry the tears of a dying Marine, we never would have gone into the madness of Iraq in he first place.

Nonetheless, today's horrible loss of life must force us to honestly confront the utter futility of our clueless efforts in Iraq and to bring home our soldiers, sailors, airmen/women and Marines before we do any more damage to them, to our armed forces, to the people of Iraq or to our standing in the world community. Say a prayer for all of them and for all of us, too. Semper fidelis. Terry Kindlon

Thank you Terry, that was beautifully expressed and written.

Update: In November, Terry wrote in about Fallujah, another must read.

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    I honor his service. I disagree with his conclusions.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 07:09:01 PM EST
    That's exactly what Bush said to the crowd festooned with those classy purple heart stickers at the RNC.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#3)
    by wishful on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 07:11:20 PM EST
    There is a compassion, humanity, and higher spirituality that comes through in this post that is truly exquisite.

    Same way you honor Kerry's service?

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#5)
    by Darryl Pearce on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 08:00:39 PM EST
    No WMDs? Bush was wrong.

    Here, here! Very much right on. This administration has sold a bill-of-goods to the American people. They sell tough talk, righteous elitism, and feel-good liberal bashing. I get the idea they don't study much; relying on talk-radio to fill the void. (V.N. vet, Navy, pilot)

    Vietnam Vet Thanks for post. The lessons of Vietnam have not yet been learned by bush and company. I expect that the end to this war, for America, will be like the end of our war in Southeast Asia. victor

    So Poker Jim, please share with us the experiences of your military combat service for our country...

    Anytime someone is shooting at you, its dangerous! Body counts in Iraq are not even on par with Vietnam, where 200 dead Americans a mouth was a slow month. How would America react if we were losing 300-600 soldiers a mouth in Iraq? 1966 5,008 1967 9,377 1968 14,589 We have learned from Vietnam. Jungle warfare is not safer than urban warfare. The fact remains that the enemy you don't see, is the one who kills you, it doesn't matter if that enemy is concealed behind a tree or behind a door. Less Americans die in war today then in any period in history! In Iraq we are have around a 1:8 kill ratio!

    This is going to get worse. Much much worse. Body counts don't count civilian contractors, many of whom now do the jobs formerly done by military personnel. Besides, with our technological superiority, this was supposed to be a cake walk, right? Why should I believe anything that Bush, Cheney and Rummy have to say? They expect the us to live in the same parallel universe that they live in. And apparently, about half the American public does!!! If you liked Iraq, you'll really love Iran!!! (Unless their nuclear deterrent makes us think twice!)

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#11)
    by john horse on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 04:17:01 AM EST
    Terry, Couldn't agree with your conclusion more. Bush got us into a mess, and like a bad gambler, he keeps doubling up on his bet, only he doesn't use chips, he uses human life. Your comment that duty in Iraq is every bit as dangerous as Vietnam is supported by the evidence (I had this link on an earlier post). Regarding the psychological problems, as Chris Hedges notes "One of the disturbing things about this war is that, because they are so short on numbers, they are treating people for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and then sending them back into combat situations."

    condor - I have noted before that I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation. Beyond that I have declined to comment, and continue to do so. As for combat experience, if it was required for a political career, then Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Lincoln and FDR, among others, would never have served. CA - That was a despicable comment, even from you. I noted several times that I honored Kerry's service, and chastised one person for disrespect. et al - Again, I honor this man's service. But I disagree with his conclusions.

    People who know war firtshand have the highest moral authority to question it. A fact sadly lost on too many Americans.(Thus we have elected a coward and rejected a hero.) PPJ-you give lip service to true heroism in war but your words ring hollow. This man knows what the horror of war is all about as do others who have spoken out. We honor their service by actually listening to them.

    Deanna: So if someone out there saw combat first hand and still agrees with what we are doing in Iraq will get the same treatment here as Mr. Kildon?

    we will never learn from history so long as those in power write their own versions. (ig the Giap debate) Those with a clear understanding of what went on in Vietnam are against this war 110% from what I have read Coyote.

    Liberals are Traitors, Children and/or Fools. You have to be at least one of them to have voted for John “Hanoi” Kerry. Democrats have degenerated into the Lose-Lose crowd. You are “4th of July Patriots”, that have never heard JFK’s “Ask Not!” speech. One lesson we learned in Vietnam was not to allow Democrat Presidents to micro-manage wars. We also learned that the Left will never let America win another war, if they can make us lose it. Another lesson we learned is that you are willing to cause and then ignore the deaths of millions to advance your self-serving ideology. Pol Pot was a Leftist. So was Stalin, Mao and Ho Chi Min. Those Marines on that Helo could have crashed in Texas and died and not one of you asses would have even thought twice about them. You don't honor our military’s sacrifices in preserving your rights, you use their deaths to make a political statement. The Left laments the deaths of Americans they despise? Yeah Right! You disgust me and all true American Patriots. BTW if you still want to find WMDs? Why don't you ask the Clintons, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy or Pelosi? They all said Saddam had them. Why don't you hate them too? BTW2 for a bunch of self described advocates for tolerance, diversity and acceptance, you sure hate a lot of people. You are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

    haha trying to get some visitors to your blog Steve? I can see the comment section is just loaded; what with the good work and all you are putting up how can you not have some hits? How do you have the time to post at TL with all this good work you are creating?

    PPJ - What conclusion do you disagree with? That there was no good reason for getting involved in Vietnam? That going into Iraq was misguided? That it is as dangerous for the soldiers? More emotionally destructive than Vietnam? What is the point of your post?

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 08:04:44 AM EST
    Is it worth my time replying to the "Everyday Patriot's" post? Hmmmm.... no.

    Wile E. I'll listen. Point me in the direction of a heartfelt piece, written by a soldier who has seen brutal combat and stands firmly for this war and I will read it and think about it.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 08:54:12 AM EST
    In Iraq we are have around a 1:8 kill ratio!
    9 people dead for no reason! Yeah!

    Dear Steve, Your an IDIOT. The end.

    Deanna writes - "PPJ-you give lip service to true heroism in war but your words ring hollow." That Kindlon speaks with great authority about the horrors of combat there is no doubt. But beyond that his knowledge and expertise does not make him an expert on why we fight wars. All wars are terrible, but there are times when the national interest says we must confront a particular evil, and that now is the time to do so. Obviously you do not think that is true. I do. BTW - I felt differently about Kosovo. I thought the Europeans should fix their backyard problems, and I saw no national self interest. I made my position known to my Senators and Representative. But, after the action started, I shut up and supported the country and the troops. I hate to bring politics into this, but that was Clinton's war, and he, like Bush, took unilateral action. I wonder what your position, and others who regular comment on this blog, would be regarding Iraq if Clinton was President.

    I have noted before that I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation. But you take care to never state, or imply, for which country you served.

    Cynic - Your assine question hardly deserves an answer. But, crediting you with not having read anything in the past, I'll just note that it was the US.

    Deanna: Heartfelt (rolling eyeballs)! Definately a woman. While I look fer a heartfelt piece from a nam vet, heres some current: ARMOR GEDDON Marine Corps Moms

    To BurgerBoy..... Why in the hell haven't you signed up yet??? According to you it's not that bad, so I'm sure the soldiers would love any help they can get! Instead of BurgerBoy maybe we should call you ChickenBoy?

    I wonder what your position, and others who regular comment on this blog, would be regarding Iraq if Clinton was President. Posted by Poker Player (aka Jim) We know the answer to that one! Democrats worship the ground that President Clinton walks and Monica kneels on. Democrats are not the least bit interested in truth, they much prefer partisan lies and misrepresentation of the facts. If Clinton was President, America would be fighting along side the insurgents in Iraq. President Clinton made the claim that he was or is a Christian, yet in Kosovo we supported Islamic terrorism and the genocide of ethnic Christians. Thanks President Clinton and a special thanks to the Democratic party. The Democrats must stop pandering for votes if they want to regain what was lost in the last election. President Bush is the first incumbent president since 1936 to help his party gain seats in both the House and Senate. President Bush is also the first presidential candidate since 1988 to receive more than 50 percent of the total vote.

    "Some of you will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" Prince Farquad Shrek

    If Clinton was President, America would be fighting along side the insurgents in Iraq. hey troll, who would they be fighting than?

    Note on above (for clarity) Second Paragraph S/B in quotes from Burgerboy also. (His words - definitely not mine!)

    I love the way conservatives debate. Put together a well argued point and all they can do is repeat CLINTON, CLINTON, CLINTON. We all had our issues with Clinton. But honest to God, I would gladly trade the failures of this assclown for the failures of the Clinton years.

    The lesson of Vietnam is this: you cannot outlast insurgents fighting in their own country. To paraphrase the Doritos ad, frag all you want, they'll make more.
    Body counts in Iraq are not even on par with Vietnam, where 200 dead Americans a mouth was a slow month.
    BurgerBoy, you conveniently list the thousands of US dead/year in Nam for 1966-68 to prove some point about how the current 62 deaths per month (or 84/month over the last six months, or 95/month over the last three months, see these stats) is somehow a good thing. However, you ignore the fact that the total casualties from the first eight years of our Vietnam involvement totaled 401 honorable servicemen, a number we eclipsed in our first nine months of our Iraquagmire. There were 1,863 casualties in 1965, which was around the time the public started thinking, "hmm, maybe sending our boys 10,000 miles overseas to die in a jungle for some 'domino theory' isn't a good idea..."
    We have learned from Vietnam.
    We shall see. If the American public wises up and forces our government to abandon this Iraquagmire before the death toll hits five digits, I'll agree with you. Steve Everyday-Patriot, you are so right, I am a foolish child traitor. I forgot that it was my patriotic duty to blindly obey our fearless leader. I forgot it was our destiny to rid Saddam of his WMD's, er... liberate the Iraqi people, um... rescue them from the hands of brutal torturers, uh... bring the fight to al those al Qaeda terrorists in league with Saddam, ah... install an American oil-company and military-base friendly puppet regime in the Middle East (whoops, how did that get in there?) er... I'm sorry, I was distracted; I was on the phone with Barbara Steisand while I was watching Jane Fonda in "Barbarella", can you remind me why we're in Iraq again? My TV's on the fritz and I can't get FOX News.
    Those Marines on that Helo could have crashed in Texas and died and not one of you asses would have even thought twice about them. You don't honor our military’s sacrifices in preserving your rights, you use their deaths to make a political statement. The Left laments the deaths of Americans they despise? Yeah Right! You disgust me and all true American Patriots.
    Again, you're so right, Steve. I just don't honor the military's sacrifices like our fearless leader does every time he attends a military funeral or our defense secretary when he was signing all those death notices by hand or our Pentagon that allows the photos of those flag-draped coffins to stand as silent tribute to all their sacrifices. As a foolish child traitor, of course I hold nothing but hatred and disgust for our American fighting men. Why, I don't even have a tattered American flag or magnetic yellow ribbon on my 8 MPG SUV!
    I wonder what your position, and others who regular comment on this blog, would be regarding Iraq if Clinton was President.
    Poker Player (aka Jim), my position on Iraq would be the same as it was when Clinton was president, since neither then nor now would there have been a decent reason to invade Iraq. I think President George H.W. Bush wrote it best in his memoirs:
    Trying to eliminate Saddam ... would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ...there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.
    Sorry for the long post. I need to go back to hating America some more.

    There is soooo much here to comment on, I'm not sure where to start... Darryl.... No WMDs? Bush was wrong. Don't stop at Bush... Most of the intelligence agencies were wrong...Most of Congress was wrong...Kerry was wrong....etc..etc. Stop bashing and learn the facts. Victor C.... I expect that the end to this war, for America, will be like the end of our war in Southeast Asia. Yes, especially if we let the left wing in this country (aka news media) dictate how we fight it like we did then! Headhoncho... Besides, with our technological superiority, this was supposed to be a cake walk, right? I don't recall anyone saying that. Besides, the way the left is criticizing EVERYTHING that is done there; our enemies will continue to hang on in the hopes that we will debate ourselves right out of this…just like we did in Nam. We NEVER lost a battle there but it sure didn’t look like that on the news! Deanna…...People who know war firtshand have the highest moral authority to question it. A fact sadly lost on too many Americans.(Thus we have elected a coward and rejected a hero.) Not sure how you label Kerry a hero... any man that comes back & disses his comrades is no hero... I don’t care how many medals he has recommended himself for! I’m a Viet Nam combat vet and I’ll be happy to discuss the many points of that war as well as this one. Let me just start off the conversation by saying that Nam was a misguided attempt (mostly by Democrats) to stamp out Communism. This one however is completely different.. We were attacked… and before you go off like all the other libs and say Saddam had nothing to do with it...let me explain the position here. Saddam, sponsored, harbored, rewarded...etc..etc terrorists. That makes him my enemy... period! This is not a police action like Nam was... this is WWIII and we had all better take it seriously and stop whining about how we are treating these animals who will stop at nothing to see us destroyed. Big difference in your average N. Vietnam rice farmer....Agree? This man knows what the horror of war is all about as do others who have spoken out. We honor their service by actually listening to them. Look.... nobody likes war. It is horrible, but unfortunately, every 50 years or so someone tries to test our resolve. We can shy away and let them terrorize the world (IE.. Hitler) or we can decide it’s time to stand up & fight. This is one of those times. Greg Z...Those with a clear understanding of what went on in Vietnam are against this war 110% from what I have read Coyote. Read again. I think it's safe to say I understand what went on in Viet Nam.. & I'm very nuch for this war. This is a huge difference as I have already pointed out. Steve E P .... good post!

    Radical.... The lesson of Vietnam is this: you cannot outlast insurgents fighting in their own country Sure you can... you just have to have the will power to do it.... and do it right! That means without listening to all the crying liberal lefties complaining about how badly we are treating these poor guys that just blew up a couple of GI's. Besides... the guys fighting us in Viet Nam were not insurgents. They were part of an organized army representing a specific country. Most of those fighting in Iraq are not Iraqi's but rag tag groups of zealot idiots with one purpose in mind, kill Americans. Freedom is evil and so are we. I assume by your post that you agree with that? Most of the lefties on here take great joy in news of this country’s failures... I find that truly amazing.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#38)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 01:57:11 PM EST
    Russ, Stop the math. Burgerboy's brain will explode.

    Posted by BurgerBoy at January 27, 2005 12:36 AM "...In Iraq we are have around a 1:8 kill ratio!..." the 1 I would imagaine is an american, probably a soldier, could be a contractor, or some other civilian type, but probably a soldier. what is the breakdown of the 8, how many women, how many children, how many male non-combatants, how many male combatants. from VietNam we should have at least learned body counts don't mean schit.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:30:38 PM EST
    It would take 2 days to try an explain why almost everything BB said is wrong. Its been said on this blog over and over so he wont listen anyway so forget it.

    PPJ spent 10 years cleaning the toilets in the pilots quarters.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#42)
    by john horse on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:44:33 PM EST
    Remember when those supporting the Iraq invasion and occupation would use the line that you are safer on the streets of Iraq than you are in any big city in the USA? Or they would claim that a tour of duty in Iraq was nowhere near as dangerous as Vietnam? I noticed that noone has the article I posted above proving that this is a myth. Unfortunately, this was one case where I wish that those who supported this war were right and those opposed to the war were wrong.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#43)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:05:06 PM EST
    It would take 2 days to try an explain why almost everything BB said is wrong. Its been said on this blog over and over so he wont listen anyway so forget it.
    They wear you down with stupidity.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#44)
    by Kitt on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:09:02 PM EST
    "PPJ spent 10 years cleaning the toilets in the pilots quarters." Now - we've been thru this before. NO ONE in the military has a MOS (military occupation) of cleaning - period. Well unless they're at Ft. Leavenworth or the like. My older brother was involved in 'naval aviation' - he was a radar tech - so there you go. It's just like my being in the medical corps....everything from transcriptionists to brain surgeons. It's some big secret so move on. I'm more interested in what conclusions of Terry Kindon's that Jim doesn't agree.

    desertswine at January 27, 2005 04:05 PM They wear you down with stupidity. and then beat you up with experience!!!

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#46)
    by john horse on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:30:01 PM EST
    Burgerboy, Where did you get the 1:8 kill ratio from (please provide the link)? Did you make that figure up or does the Pentagon actually keep track of this? The kill rate is only one factor in a war. If the number of replacements rises at a faster rate than the number killed, then it is almost irrelevant. According to CIA reports, the number of insurgents keeps increasing rather than decreasing and they have the population and the will to sustain their losses indefinitely. What most Americans do is measure the costs of the war against the gains, and that is why support for this war keeps dropping.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:33:21 PM EST
    Jim, I agree with Kitt that the toilet remark directed at you was out of line.

    B.B. continues...
    Sure you can... you just have to have the will power to do it.... and do it right!
    And those tactics would be... carpetbombing? napalming? nuking? What is this magical solution we lefties are preventing our fearless leader from implementing?
    That means without listening to all the crying liberal lefties complaining about how badly we are treating these poor guys that just blew up a couple of GI's.
    Here's an exercise for the reader: attempt to hold two thoughts in your brain at once. Thought #1) I love the troops (I was one) and despise those who kill them. Thought #2) I hate the way our civilian leaders are misusing, under-armoring, and causing the troops to undertake a militarily-impossible solution to a political situation that puts them in harm's way for no justifiable reason. Breathe deeply. Try to understand that it is possible to criticize one's government and love one's country at the same time.
    Most of those fighting in Iraq are not Iraqi's but rag tag groups of zealot idiots with one purpose in mind, kill Americans. Freedom is evil and so are we.
    Yes, yes, they hate us for our freedoms. That's why they hate Canada, Sweden, India, and a whole host of other free, democratic countries. This has nothing to do with our foreign policy, unquestioning support of Israel, military squatting in their holy lands, blowing up their neighborhoods, killing their children, and occupying their country. It's our right to rent DVD porn, own a gun, and march in the streets that they hate.
    I assume by your post that you agree with that? Most of the lefties on here take great joy in news of this country’s failures... I find that truly amazing.
    I can't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for myself. I take no joy in America's failures. I scream about America's failures because I love her so much. If I did not love America, I wouldn't give a shi'ite. Neo-conned wingnuts like you who stick to the "you hate America" meme instantly undercut your credibility.

    But, after the action started, I shut up and supported the country and the troops. Jim is one those few people that thinks the current war is going according to plan and nothing can be added by further discussion. So shut it. I wonder what your position, and others who regular comment on this blog, would be regarding Iraq if Clinton was President. I wonder what your position, and others who regular comment on this blog, would be regarding Iraq if Bush Sr was President.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#50)
    by john horse on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    But, after the action started, I shut up and supported the country and the troops. One of the best responses to this idea that it is "unpatriotic" to criticize the war came from Carter's Secretary of State. He asked suppose you found out that a company was manufacturing a defective weapon that, as a result of it malfunctioning, was resulting in unnecessary deaths. Would you remain silent or would you do everything possible to stop it. How is a defective weapon any different than a defective policy?

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:02:51 PM EST
    Dahr Jamail was one of the fewwho was trying to get information about Fallujah out, with his reports from Iraq. Today he describes what he sees 3 days before the election.
    Today, during a press conference he spoke about the upcoming elections in Iraq. “Clearly there are some who are intimidated,” he said, “I urge alls (not a typo) people to vote.” Let me describe the scene on the ground here in “liberated” Iraq. With the “elections” just three days away, people are terrified. Families are fleeing Baghdad much as they did prior to the invasion of the country. Seeking refuge from what everyone fears to be a massive onslaught of violence in the capital city, huge lines of cars are stacked up at checkpoints on the outer edges of the city. Policemen and Iraqi soldiers are trying to convince people to stay in the city and vote. Nobody is listening to them.
    Read the whole article. Peaches - great stuff today!!

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#52)
    by Patrick on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:24:41 PM EST
    Kevin Erker is there, he write home to his parents::: Capt. Kevin M. Erker, USMC Stationed in Iraq FA18 fighter pilot Currently project manager in charge of pulling the Iraq air force together, which includes retraining their pilots Kevin sent the following letter to his parents Ann and Dan Erker... Here in Iraq there are millions of people who are praying every day for a better life. The world is not America, the world is not "our" peace. The world is all of humanity, and all of humanity deserves peace. When I was a small child, I always wondered what it would be like to be alive during a war, and here I am. It's terribly disturbing. American is a wonderful place, an idealistic place, a place far removed from the rest of the turbulent world that we, humanity, live in. When you sit by the fire this evening, without a flak jacket on, without a helmet on and without the sounds of mortars off in the distance, feel the peace. Feel the peace in your soul and you will understand why we are here fighting. Sure, politicians may have hidden agendas, and sure, in some ways the war may be about money, greed, power and politics, but that's only at the very highest level. Down here on the ground, face to face with the Iraqis, it's not about any of those things. When you, as an American, walk into the Ministry of Defense, the Iraqis look at you as if you are their salvation, their hope and their future. I've had them embrace me and thank me for helping them. They know that we are shedding blood for them. They dream about feeling the warmth that overwhelms your body when you sit by the fire tonight. I'm not sad being away from you but happy that I have an opportunity to better someone's life. My heart breaks when I realize that when I leave, they will continue their struggle. They keep asking me who will replace me, and I don't know. I've never felt more needed. The other day the squadron commander begged me to stay. Mohammad practically embraces me every time he sees me. Words can't explain the despair that they feel. The incredible faith that they must have is inexplicable. Can you imagine if your children were sick because you had no heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer? Can you imagine looking into the eyes of your children when they run to you terrified by the explosions in the background? I can't. I pray for peace on Earth and mean it. We live in a turbulent time, a time where evil seems to be lurking around every corner, but remember, while evil is lurking around every corner and in all the shadows, "good" is continuing to work for peace, while walking in the open and courageously living free.

    Can you all please not reprint each other's comments...just name the person you are responding to? And also, please don't reprint more than a paragraph of a quote--it takes up too much bandwidth and makes readers less likely to scroll through to the bottom of the thread. And don't forget, no profanity or personal insults or the comment will be deleted.

    Radical - You are forgeting that situations change. What was correct for GHWB's time is not correct for GWB's time. BTW - I'll give you an A for consistency. Many around here are not. Dearest No Name - Whatever I did was more for my country than you. And I post my name, I do not hide. BTW - There are Line Shacks, Ready Rooms, and Officer Quarters, but I don't recall pilot's quarters. Perhaps that is what they were paying you for taking care of their relief tube. Kitt and John - Thank you for the kind words, if they are indeed meant to be. Hmmm. I guess I have become suspicious. As for my disagreements with his conclusions, they are this. He does not believe Iraq is worth the cost. I do. I have absolutely no disagreement with his descriptions of combat, and it is obvious he cared for his men, and still does. John H - That is a specious position that Vance (?) took. There is no reasonable way they can be the same. My point is that home front morale has always been important in wartime, to criticize after the battle is joined hurts the troops because it helps the enemy. Now I know you reject that, but it is truer now, with world wide communication, than it ever was.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#56)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 09:26:29 PM EST
    Jim, Though I don't agree with the above toilet comment, maybe it would serve to give you an idea of how John Kerry felt last summer.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#57)
    by john horse on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 04:26:21 AM EST
    BurgerBoy Couldn't find your cite for the 1:8 kill ratio in Iraq. Did you find this on a website or in a magazine article. If so, please provide the source. If anyone else was able to find this, please let me know. I've got to admit a certain morbid curiousity in this. During Vietnam, I remember a show produced by AFRTS (Armed Forces Radio and TV) called Vietnam Week In Review. The highlight of the show for me was the kill ratio for the battles that week. How could any enemy sustain such losses? In retrospect, I was asking the wrong question. Anyway, I did do some research on the kill ratio in Iraq last year and I remember it being alot higher than 1:8. However, this was during the Shock and Awe phase of the war when we were carpet bombing the Iraqis. My suspicion is that it has fallen dramatically since Bush declared the end of major combat. (also see my comments about the kill ratio being only one factor among many) If the Pentagon is keeping records, it is not publicizing them. One problem that you will need to resolve is methodology. You might want to do some research on what constitutes a combat related fatality. Not all American soldiers who die in Iraq are included.

    Che - As you know, I defended Kerry's service in Vietnam, and condemed what he did and said on return. I think I was right in both cases. And I would guess that Kerry paid about as much attention to that as I did to Dearest No Name's. IM - All of this "no end game" stuff is merely an attempt by critics to find another attack point. There has never been a war that went according to plan. As I noted above, the end game is simply to win. That requires determination and flexibility. If your question re GHWB concerns Desert Storm, I supported Desert Storm. And I think we should have just went on to Bagdad and deposed Saddam. However the UN would not go along with that and the war's support at home was one vote slim. i.e. The Demos were doing their usual trick. As for shutting up, not criticizing your country when the fighting starts was a long and great tradition. If you don't think our enemies pay close attention to our political climate you are very, very, very wrong.

    This Blog should be called BabyTalk.

    Jim:
    "There has never been a war that went according to plan. As I noted above, the end game is simply to win." I assume that you must be referring to the "War on Terror" since I thought America won the Iraq War (v2.0) a while back. So, given that we're talking about the War on Terror, and that the end game is merely to win, the question becomes: What is "winning", in this context? Can you please describe to me what victory will look like? This is not an attack on you, it's not a trick question, but a genuine enquiry that no-one ever seems to answer. Because without a clear vision of what winning the war looks like it seems to me that we've been sold a war that will never end. Surely you can't seriously support such a thing?


    jim - I cannot speak anyone but myself. If Clinton wouldn´t have given inspections more time and went to war on the same pretences as Bush did, I´d be against it. Iraq is now what Kosovo was, a gamble. The difference being the previous came out fairly well. This one on the other hand, is likely to go on for a very long time and end up as a failed state. Just like Lebanon, Chechnya, Somalia or former Afghanistan.

    Re: A Vietnam Vet Speaks Out on Today's Iraq Death (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 10:16:30 AM EST
    Jim, It wasn't about what you thought of Kerry's war service. What I'm asking is, do you think that the SBVFT and others were right to impugne and question Kerry's actions IN COUNTRY. Because to me that is truly despicable. Just for a moment think about it WITHOUT the senate remarks he made.

    The lesson of Vietnam is this: you cannot outlast insurgents fighting in their own country Which is why there's a US at all surely !