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Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:00:48 PM EST
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Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) is the first U.S. Senator to call for an end to the U.S. presence in Iraq. Shorter version: Give the Iraqis back their country and bring our troops home. Put an end to "George Bush's Vietnam."

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    Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home | 64 comments (64 topical)
    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:15:07 PM EST
    Is TED A terrorists? Why cut and run, why not just stay? Bush said the people love us all to death, so why go? This is so much fun! Oh yes who would we be fighting here if we were not in the mideast? and who is the next target here? ask not what you can do for bush and business ask how you can makr a life after the dismantling of a once great nation by our loving elite oligarchies.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:21:07 PM EST
    Terror's best friend in the Senate? Ol' Teddy Boy, Zarqawi's enabler along with all the networks showing the hostage footage over and over but refusing to show the beheading footage or the footage of people jumping from the WTC. Crikey with folks like these who needs Tokyo Rose? Oh, sorry I meant Bagdad Bob.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#3)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:30:58 PM EST
    OK, I'll ask the obvious question. When do YOU think we should leave Iraq, jimcee? After the election? When the Iraqi government says pretty please? When we can count 100,000 Iraqi army troops two days in a row? After we've killed everyone we've decided is a "terrorist"? In other words, if the job isn't finished now, how will we know when it is?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:39:21 PM EST
    If I remember correctly, Bush was the one who said on public television (and I quote).......... "TERRORISM IS A FIGHT THAT WE CAN'T WIN." If he really thinks this, then I guess we will be in Iraq for a very long time! I by far am not a Ted Kennedy fan, but this has got to be the smartest thing I have ever heard him say!

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#5)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 12:52:11 PM EST
    Relax Jincee, you get your way. They're pouring the concrete for your military wet dreanms as we speak.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 01:02:06 PM EST
    My first reaction was that perhaps its time for Ted to ask if anyone is listening or not; perhaps Ted could have a better impact on politics from a D.C. think tank. Then I realized that once you get to a certain level within the halls of power, you can't put your personal interests before the good of the government. Even if it is just a Liberal protest vote, it is better than no official protest vote at all. If I were in Ted's position, I would likely be even more frustrated than I am now by Neoconservative foreign policy given that I could actually do something, but it wouldn't be enough. Keep fighting Ted.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#7)
    by Mike on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 01:11:16 PM EST
    You might not like 'ol Ted, but at least someone has the balls to say SOMETHING. Democrats, as a whole, seem to have lost any semblance of a spine. It's going to take more than just a Kennedy, but seriously, why aren't more of our senators speaking out?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 01:22:33 PM EST
    The most fearsome terrorist is our dear terrorist in chief. We should all be afraid of the all powerful Bushwacker, I think he sent more people to death in Texas than Zarqawi has beheaded in Iraq. The hundred thousand Iraqis who had to pay with their lives for Bushwacker's democracy must be upset in heaven that they don't get to vote on Sunday. I love this calling anyone we don't agree with a terrorist or terrorist supporter. Ted Kennedy is the only Democrat with any balls right now, maybe he should be sent to Gitmo to be enticed by the sexual charms of our women interogators (another thread today) to say what Bushwacker would deem patriotic.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 01:53:10 PM EST
    MWF - Please. Keep it the context, which was there is no nation state per see that we can defeat and have terrorism magically go away. Dearest No Name writes - "now, maybe he should be sent to Gitmo to be enticed by the sexual charms of our women interogators (another thread today) to say what Bushwacker would deem patriotic....." Actually, when it comes to enticing women into bad situations, Teddy is ahead 1-0. Or did yoy forget? Forecasts show a 70% or higher voter turn out. The Left is getting desperate.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:01:48 PM EST
    Poker Player (aka Jim) at January 27, 2005 02:53 PM ...Teddy is ahead 1-0... ok adding Laura's ms case and the score is tied.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#11)
    by brian on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:04:32 PM EST
    I'd say that Bush was Zarqawi's enabler, since he shut down three different plans to kill Zarqawi before the invasion, in order to justify his crusade. Nice try, though, freepers.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:18:23 PM EST
    MWF - Please. Keep it the context, which was there is no nation state per see that we can defeat and have terrorism magically go away.
    Of course this raises the question how many countries do you have to invade to make it go away? All 60 that aQ are reported to be in? Or do you finally realize that the invasion strategy is wrong? Forecasts show a 70% or higher voter turn out. Where in the green zone? Citation?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:21:17 PM EST
    Hey people basically we are all done! I can see it now, bin laden as a senator. Let us all start reading the koran and lets all face facts our government if it could would join the jihad on many of us, Bush or as bush the islam guy would say,
    Recite in the
    name of your lord, who created man from clots of blood! recite! your lord is the most bounitful one, who by the pen taught man what he did not know...The Koran (96:1-5)
    Yes Bush and Oligarchies and ted(who i love) will help us all right into the real ideals of the great God guy. help,help! not a loving government! and the line of the big Heart of what? or is it all for the people of the world?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:27:25 PM EST
    The terrorist have already won

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#15)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 02:34:57 PM EST
    It's like having our very own Howard Beale!

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:18:17 PM EST
    Posted by 03:27 PM "The terrorist have already won" "and now we need peace with dignity", or some other early 70ish mumbo jumbo.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:28:56 PM EST
    I'd have to agree and say that dubya is the Zarqawi enabler. No invasion and Zarqawi is a minor blip on the terrorist radar screen. As for Sen. Kennedy, I'm glad he's making the statement he is making. The sad thing is that the right have allready colored his image too much (Chappaquitich(sp?) notwithstanding) for any real impact to be made.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:36:09 PM EST
    "70% or higher..the left blah blah." This direct from those unimpeachable outlets Newsmax and the Spectator.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 03:52:28 PM EST
    70% of the people who havnt been blown to smithereens,(excuse me, permanantly liberated)have begun to think it may be a good idea to comply with U.S demands.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 04:32:17 PM EST
    yeah right, 70% of Iraquis are really going to vote, They don't even know who they are voting for, the candidates names are being kept secret, and ofcourse where they stand on the issues. Maybe Dubya will win in Iraq too. Lord help us.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 04:43:27 PM EST
    I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas. The Bush Rats will all piss in our swirling teacups, people. Laminate, laminate.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 04:54:35 PM EST
    I think we should bring our troops home. But, lets let them taste our real military before we come home. The only way to win a war is by brute force. If we cannot use overwhelming force with a clear mission and end game, we shouldn't be there in the first place. This war is a disaster. What about national interests? Spreading democracy should not be a reason for war. What a shame.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:17:51 PM EST
    This will not go by unnoticed Smearboats, full speed ahead!

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#24)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:41:36 PM EST
    Iraqi blogger Raed in the Middle and gives his reasons here.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:45:55 PM EST
    Correction on above: Iraqi blogger Raed in the Middle is not going to vote and gives his reasons here.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#26)
    by DonS on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:47:23 PM EST
    No citation on "70%" yet from Poker Jim. Guess he must be out delivering meals on wheels.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:52:37 PM EST
    I have no idea when the US will leave Iraq but I do know that if the US leaves precipitously there will be a major power vacuum in Iraq that will most likely result in even more chaos and death. Like it or not, it's going to take a while. If we follow Sen Kennedy's advice the US will be responsible for the aftermath and I doubt that even the most severe Leftist would revel in the mayhem that would sweep through Iraq no matter how much they would like to see Bush brought low. Of course I may be wrong and some people might enjoy Iraqi suffering through proxy. As Powell said, "We break it, we've bought it..." Hope for the best. Che, No freeper here, just a relaxed realist. If anyone is interested there is an informative artical on the history of the US's 20th century involvement in the ME in the Winter edition of the Wilson Journal (published by the Wilson Institute).

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 05:53:25 PM EST
    John Hart writes - "If we cannot use overwhelming force with a clear mission and end game, we shouldn't be there in the first place." Good idea. Given that our end game in WWII was to win, do you think that is acceptable now? I mean, do you think FDR and Churchill sat down and said, we'll get into this, but, if it doesn't go exactly as planned, we'll withdraw? Have you read any of the history of the difficulties we faced in the hedgerows of France after D-Day? In spite of the fact that the geography was well known, and hadn't changed in hundreds of years, we found ourselves fighting a deadly battle that pinned us down and killed many. All kinds of solutions were tried, none were perfect, but we kept on pushing, kept on fighting. But then we didn't have Ted Kennedy and his band of merry naysayers pulling a 24/7 criticism trick on the fighting of that war. Dearest No Name - Yes, I understand your concern. I mean we all know that you and your friends are just so much more intelligent that the Iraqi citizens. How dare them want to vote in a free election without someone telling them what to do. Yes, I am discourged. Yes, discourged that people might want to be free. Not. PeaNutGallery - Well, let's see. Laura Bush, wasn't Laura Bush. She was years away from that. In fact she was a 17 year old teenager. The accident was investigated immediately. There was no alcohol or drugs, and there was no man slaughter charge. And her family had no politicial influence. Here, read the USA Today story. Now with Ted K, he was, if I remember right, was in college. He was leaving a party in which there was heavy drinking, and given his history, there is every reason to believe he had been drinking. And the accident wasn't investigated until around noon the next day, and all we have is his word for what happened. Try that yourself and see how quickly you are booked with leaving the scene of an accident and vehicluar homicide. It was just understood that political influence kept him from being in deep, deep trouble. Other than that, they're the same. (That sound you hear is me laughing.) jondee - Try ABC news. SD - Why do you care? You will be against anything we do. So just be patient and keep your criticism book handy. BTW - That was mean of me. I think you know the strategy is to establish a beachhead in Iraq and use that as a wedge. So there. Don't say you were treated poorly and weren't educated today.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:06:08 PM EST
    The sad fact is that the Left is so desperate that they will embrace the likes of a cronic womanizer, alcohlic and child of privledge. Oh and a really bad driver to boot. Surely there is a better spokesman for the anti-war Left than he. Look around. Do you see anyone more credible out there to be your spokesman? If not, you're in trouble.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#30)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:11:43 PM EST
    Hey Jimcee, I'm my own spokeman. Ted can go !@#$ himself for all I care, but we still should get out of Iraq! They're all children of priveledge if you haven't figured it out yet. There is no difference between the priviledged backgrounds of Ted or George, or John Kerry for that matter. THis isn't about right and left it is about AMerica and right and wrong, truth and lyes.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:54:27 PM EST
    Sorry, I meant the Wilson Quarterly not Journal. Peaches, The last thing that the US or the UK should do is cut and run. The last time that we did that on a large scale ended in diaster for those we left behind. How many millions were either killed or "re-educated" after the the US retreated from SE Asia? Were they better off when we were there or after we left? Afterall I don't recall a floatilla of people risking their lives to go to SE Asia in the mid seventies. I'm just guessing but I'll bet you don't read much history, too bad because it helps one understand events that are happening today. Emotional and reactionary thinking very rarely ends well and that's why a grounding in history is important.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 08:00:36 PM EST
    Geuss what Jimcee, You geuss wrong. But you are right though. All the history I have read (plenty,and I am willing to bet a hell of a lot more than you) gives me much insight into what is happening today. We should get the hell out of Iraq.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 08:26:26 PM EST
    Peaches, As I suggested earlier there is an article in Winter 2005 issue of the Wilson Quarterly by Andrew J.Bacevich titled "World War IV". As you are interested in history you will enjoy its rather objective overview. It is as history should be, clear, honest, non-partsan and well informed. I don't believe that it is available online but I'm sure a quality library will have it. Enjoy.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 09:09:53 PM EST
    With Ted, you just wince. He has become a caricature of himself; when he speaks out I understand W's smirky look. Most of the time the smirk is obnoxious, but as a reaction to the blowhard of all blowhards, it's pretty much justified. As for "when to leave", it's pretty simple. We will have to follow instructions from the elected government of Iraq. If we don't, I'm all over BushCo., but the "when" is probably now the easiest of the many quandries we face. It is simply not our call any more.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#35)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 09:10:49 PM EST
    Jimcee, Oh we are giving out reading assignments now. You can order all of these at amazon: Richard Rorty: Achieving our Country John Taylor Gatto: The Underground History of American Schooling J.R McNeil Something New Under the Sun Randall Robinson: Quiting America John Keenan: A history of Warfare Hegel: A Phenomology of spirit Fyodor Dostoevsky The Brothers Karamazov Philip Roth The Plot Against America Chris Hedges War is the Frorce That Gives Us Meaning James Hillman A Terrible Love of War and Bob Dylan Chronicles Vol I Okay, these are the books I have read over the past three months. I have ready to replace them on a myriad of subjects. You have given me no compelling reason to add to go to the library to add to my list. Bacevich has an opinion I am sure, but his is not the only version of history. If you feel you could benfit from my list go right ahead. Enjoy.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#37)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 09:56:26 PM EST
    Jimcee, Now here is a history expert for ya. Guy is going to bring up WWII and Germany and Japan. And I never even compared Bush to Hitler (honest, I swear, ppj). Guy, go crawl back in your hole.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:10:40 PM EST
    Jimcee: Keep up the good fight. If the likes of Peaches were making the decisions during World War II, we would all be speaking German today. We had a formidable presence in Japan for five years before we left. It that is what it takes to do it right, then so be it. To provide a "timetable" for withdrawal at this point would play right into the insurgents hands. The fact that recognizing this takes nothing more that common sense is most likely why blowhard Ted doesn't get it! [This commenter is limited to four comments a day.]

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:21:59 PM EST
    Peaches...sticks and stones. To help you out on the history side, my reference was to the five years that it took to stabalize Japan. Got it!

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:31:44 PM EST
    Guy, How many American Soldiers were killed by insurgents during those five years that it took to stabilize Japan. Answer: zero. American soldiers died while fighting in the war. When the mission was over with Japan's surrender, Americans stopped dying.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#40)
    by bad Jim on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:33:40 PM EST
    When we were occupying Japan and Germany, the roads weren't too dangerous to travel. Our civilian administrators weren't confined to a fortified zone. Casualties, both military and civilian, weren't higher than they had been before the occupation. The comparison with Vietnam may be appropriate. Germany and Japan, um, not so much.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:42:57 PM EST
    Peaches...History lesson #2. Five years was what it took to quell the continued uprising and bring a sense of stability to the country. There was no initial timetable then and there should be no timetable at this point in Iraq. We remained until the job was done then and that is what needs to happen now. The thought of providing a timetable at this point is simply ludicrous. Now I am going to crawl into my hole and go to bed. I suggest that you do the same.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#42)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 10:45:58 PM EST
    Guy, WAIT, How many American Soldiers Died during those five years? How many have Died in Iraq since it was "liberated?" Sleep on that

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 04:46:29 AM EST
    DA - Nice theory. Look out for those gliders, you can tell where they come from by the tinfoil on their tails. peaches - In both Japan and Germany we had completely destroyed the infrastructure. Starvation and disease was of real concern, especially during the fall and winter of 45-46 and 46-47. And we really weren't all that concerned with civilian care. Hospitals, schools, etc., took a back seat to establishing a government that we wanted, and any resistance was met with truly draconian measures. And there were groups of Nazis operating for quite sometime. Iraq is not Vietnam, or Korea or Germany or Japan. We invaded a country with the intent of changing a regime, and not destroying everything that stuck its head up. That presents a different set of problems. We'll just have to solve those. The difference is that you come from the "shouldn't have done it" side. And you look for every bad thing, every problem that supports that view.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 06:27:39 AM EST
    Jim, please get yourself to Bagdad as quickly as possible. They desperately need your wisdom and optimism. We can win this thing with more guys like you putting your shoulder into it.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 06:28:42 AM EST
    Once Jim is there to manage things, I agree with Ted. Let's bring the troops home. Jim can take it from here.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 07:24:51 AM EST
    DA - Try harder. Your efforts are sorely lacking in orginality and logic. CA - Thank you for your confidence, but I believe you are a majority of none.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 07:56:20 AM EST
    You go Teddy! Ted Kennedy once again proves that long term alcohol consumption rots the brain. He's under the delusion that he's the president of the United states. This dude's never even won a primary.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#51)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 08:48:03 AM EST
    Occam's razor Japan was quiet after the war because we left the Emperor in place and the Govt. in place. As long as we got the military bases we needed to corral China and the Soviets, we let the Japanese run Japan. It really doesn't apply to Iraq. Of course, when you've just had two major cities incinerated, total surrender is probably your best option if you want to survive as a culture.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 10:48:17 AM EST
    Is this the same Ted Kennedy who also recently said "We Democrats may be a minority in Congress, but we speak for the majority of Americans"? Talk about liberal elitist BS. This borders on dementia. One might also ask where Teddy was when all those good people in the 60s were protesting his brother's war in Vietnam.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#53)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 10:52:22 AM EST
    OK, jimcee and PPJ. Now let's watch what the Bushies decide to do next. If Bush, Rumsfeld, et al suddenly decide it's time to leave, will it still be "cut and run" or will it be "mission accomplished"? Personally, I think we're in a classic lose-lose trap. I think jimcee is right: if we leave precipitously, there will be a struggle for power. There are obviously a lot of factions with a lot of weapons ready to fight. On the other hand, if we stay, do we expect our relationship with the Iraqi people to make a turnaround? Are we going to be able to establish a secure environment to start rebuilding infrastructure? Will the rate of military casualties decline? I don't believe any of that will happen.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 11:26:16 AM EST
    DA, Fair enough, make it his liberal buddy LBJ's war, although it was JFK who got us into it.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimcee on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 11:29:53 AM EST
    QuakerIAB, Thank you for decerning my meaning with my post to Peaches. Whether a person supported the invasion of Iraq and the deposing of Saddam or not (and I did), one still has to deal with the aftermath of those actions. Leaving a power vacuum there would be worse than the status quo for the Iraqi people and possibly lead to another Taliban-like nation-state. The US is responsible in the clean-up of Iraq, like it or not. I am not a right wing nut, just pragmatic. I have a nephew there now and a close friend who lost his son there in battle but cutting and running is not an option no matter what Sen. Kennedy thinks or says, even with his extensive experience in the Vietnam War. Peaches, As far as reading material is concerned, I recommended what I did because I thought that it was an informative piece on the situation since you are interested in history, not to change your opinion. An open mind is very important. I did not mean to imply that you were ignorant just that you are cherry-picking your sources to fit your beliefs instead of ingesting many opinions to form your beliefs. As far as your reading list I have read some of your suggestions although I have no interest in a Dylan biography and I gave up on Roth after "Zuckerman Unbound" Hillman's book was very good. Unfortunatly you seem to be blinded by emotionalism and not open to discussion on this topic. Somehow I expect your next post will be in all caps to crank it up another notch. Best, Jim

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 11:42:20 AM EST
    If I hear one more comparison between WWII and Iraq, I'm gonna puke. Conventional war and guerrilla was are very different, as are wars with just cause and without just cause.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 11:43:16 AM EST
    Jimcee, Nah, I got a good night's sleep. My point in giving my reading list was the exact same point you were trying to make.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 11:45:36 AM EST
    DA, Although one could be forgiven for wondering just what, if any, role Teddy had in the decision to get involved in Vietnam in the first place. Anyone have any idea how close Teddy, Bobby, and Jack were back in the day?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#60)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 12:00:29 PM EST
    "The US is responsible in the clean-up of Iraq, like it or not." jimcee, this is what some of us were trying to say before the invasion. Instead of listening, war supporters insisted we'd be greeted as liberators, the cost would be covered by Iraqi oil revenues, and there'd be minimal casualties. Anyhow, that's water under the bridge. Are we responsible for standing Iraq back on its feet? Yes, I think so. Are we doing all we can to meet that obligation? I don't think we are. At nearly every turn since the fall of Baghdad, the Bushies have rebuffed significant participation from outside, made politically expedient decisions that have backfired later, and insisted that all is well. All isn't well. Here's my prediction. The election won't change much of anything. Allawi will emerge the victor. The US military will still be engaged. The insurgency will continue. We'll still lose a handful of soldiers every week. The situation will become neither more stable nor more unstable. At some point--maybe sooner, maybe later--the Bush administration will decide it's unwilling to commit any more lives or any more money to a situation that shows no sign of ever improving. They'll declare the job done and start the pullout. How, exactly, will that be any different from what Senator Kennedy suggests?

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#61)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 12:17:06 PM EST
    Way back upthread, somebody questioned PPJ's claim of a projected 70 percent voter turnout. Here's a breakdown of projected voting patterns from the Christian Science Monitor. The level of turnout varies from a low of 20 percent in predominantly Sunni arab areas to the high 70's in Shiite and Kurd regions. Overall, an average of 70 percent doesn't look farfetched at all.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#62)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 01:30:56 PM EST
    Quaker IAB... While there is little difference between the two scenarios, the illusion of difference will be there. It will appear to be different becasue one scenario was instigated by our beloved neocon cabal, and the other was suggested by a leftist. The fact they would end up with the same result is irrelavent to the neocons. The other difference, of course, will be that Rush/Hannity/Savage will tell them it's different, which means it must be so! As for the election making a difference, the elections in Afghanistan sure changed things, right? Oh wait, no they did not. President Karzai is still basically just the mayor of Kabul.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#63)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 01:41:14 PM EST
    "It will appear to be different becasue one scenario was instigated by our beloved neocon cabal, and the other was suggested by a leftist." There it is.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 02:39:20 PM EST
    70's in Shiite and Kurd regions. Overall, an average of 70 percent doesn't look farfetched at all. hmm, seems the brits are doing far better on their part, keep up the good work lads!

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 02:46:20 PM EST
    i think Kennedy may be attempting to get ahead of the ball (of what many perceive as an inevitability) so that it could be perceived that he personally helped bring about the ending of the war through his rhetoric and influence. if it turns out that the US military must leave Iraq soon, this could be a significantly shrewd maneuver on his part. otherwise, i just like the sound of it. Kennedy's comments don't remind me of statements that are bought and paid for by the Bush war propaganda machine. (See Raimondo at antiwar for details on Rendon et al.)

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimcee on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 08:23:25 PM EST
    Quaker, I agree with most of your analysis but I can't help but hope for the best in the upcoming elections. This whole deal is a crap shoot that began on 9/11/01. We all were sucked into a certain complacentcy after the fall of the USSR but something was festering below that Cold War thing which eventually came to light. At this point I can only support free elections in Iraq because it is the only way the US can get out sooner and with positive but less than perfect results. It's time for some of that "American" can-do sh*t to show up. It has been a long time but I think if anyone can do it it is the US. But then again I'm an optimist. Either way it is rough for the people in Iraq.

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#67)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 05:57:56 AM EST
    Ted knows they are not coming home, and it is safe for him to spin this rhetoric. I doubt he would care to take responsibility for the state of Iraq after a substantial troop drawdown. I would love to replay for him the Ashcroft nomination hearings; I believe he has since changed his tune. ”Our government? Tyrannical?”

    Re: Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 10:30:22 AM EST
    Piggle, After our last conversation I almost don't want to touch this one. But, could you explain your point. Kennedy points to something Ashcroft says about the 2nd amendment. and asks the question? "our Government? Tyranical? In a completely different context he asks for American soldiers to come home. To begin a withdrawl or at least ask for a plan. He says nothing about our government being tyranical. A politicain does nothing but "spin rhetoric." In fact, I am not sure they should do anything else. But, that is beside the point. Explain how he has changed his tune.

    Sen. Ted Kennedy: Bring the Troops Home | 64 comments (64 topical)