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Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint

University of Colorado Ethnic Studies Professor Ward Churchill continues to be a hot topic of debate, both in MSM and by bloggers. Here's the latest:

In one corner, we have Law Professor Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit, writing at his MSNBC blog. Glenn says that Churchill shouldn't be fired, but he is very critical of Churchill as a scholar. In the opposite corner, is Kurt Nimmo, writing for Counterpunch, who sees similarities between Churchill and Sami al-Arian, the professor from Tampa who has been sitting in a jail cell in isolation awaiting trial on terrorism charges, which Nimmo says largely stem form pro-Palestinian views.

Also weighing in are Law Prof Eugene Volokh of the Volokh Conspiracy, writing for the Rocky Mountain News, who says that firing Churchill would set a dangerous precedent from an academic freedom and First Amendment perspective, but might be appropriate on the grounds that he misrepresented his biographical details. And Alexander Cockburn at Counterpunch, who is very angry at the "right-wing mad dogs" and says that the fervor has already spread to another professor at different university.

The ACLU weighs in and asks the governor, legislators and the University of Colorado Board of Regents to "stop threatening" CU professor Ward Churchill's job."

Is there anyone willing to stick up for Churchill and his writings? Or to put them in perspective? We found Joshua Frank, also writing at Counterpunch, who trashes the liberals who are trashing Churchill, and provides his view of Churchill's writings, which differ considerably from those of Glenn and Eugene.

One Colorado state representative has called for a review of CU's tenure system. I'm sure plenty of pure academics will write about that, but since this is a weblog, not a law review or a textbook, I'm going to leave that topic alone for now. Suffice it to say, at the current time,

For a faculty member to be fired at CU, the school must show incompetence, neglect of duty, insubordination, conviction of a felony, moral turpitude, sexual harassment or "other conduct which falls below minimum standards of professional integrity."

TalkLeft's coverage, with a diverse range of views expressed in hotly-debated comments, is here.

If you would like to hear Churchill speak for himself, you can read this statement --or this interview --or you can head up to C.U. Boulder Tuesday night where he will be speaking at 7pm at the University Memorial Center's Glenn Miller Ballroom. No backpacks or signs on sticks allowed.

Update: On a related note, read Salmon Rushdie's op-ed in Sunday's LA Times, Democracy is No Tea Party:

Offense and insult are part of everyday life for everyone in Britain (or the U.S., for that matter). All you have to do is open a daily paper and there's plenty to offend. Or you can walk into the religion section of a bookshop and discover you're damned to various kinds of eternal hellfire, which is certainly insulting, not to say overheated.

The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted, or in which they have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted, is absurd.

In the end, a fundamental decision needs to be made: Do we want to live in a free society or not? Democracy is not a tea party where people sit around making polite conversation. In democracies, people get extremely upset with each other. They argue vehemently against each other's positions. (But they don't shoot.)

Update: Thread hijacked, comments closed.

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    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 09:36:19 PM EST
    Good.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 10:51:48 PM EST
    Thank you for posting this updated thread. Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, has information about Ward Churchill, "incomplete" and still in development, nevertheless already providing a lot of useful related links, updated 7 Feb. 2005 (and ongoing due to this controversy). I have been finding a lot of comments both supporting and opposing Churchill's perspective posted in reply to articles and entries in a variety of blogs and internet-based news sites. People seem not only intellectually divided over the issues that he raises centering on 9/11 but also emotionally distraught about the manner in which he has raised them. Sorting out the related (highly-rhetorical) controversy concerning his claims about his American Indian heritage is quite difficult at this point. To be fair both to him and to the issues being debated, I would urge people (including administrators and colleagues at the University of Colorado) to keep an open mind and not to succumb to unsubstantiated rumors or partially-established charges and counter-charges. As both an American citizen and a tenured member of an academic community, he is entitled to freedom of speech and due process.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 04:57:14 AM EST
    I liked the Op-Ed piece on Ward Churchill By Reggie Rivers

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 05:30:44 AM EST
    If Instahack were on my side I'd give up

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 06:36:56 AM EST
    Before anyone screams Academic Freedom- please rteconsider your preconcieved notions about Larry Summers.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 06:53:26 AM EST
    i don't think that anyone was calling for larry summers to be fired for making his controversial remarks, because dr. summers has the right to say what he believes to be true, just as dr. chuchill does.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 07:41:16 AM EST
    Susan - Not to belabor a point, but you continue with the YesButs without explaining why referring to people who were killed randomly, and just because they worked in a readily identifable American symbol, "little Eichmanns" is not hate speech. And yes, I know you have posted links. But please. Why can't you explain it in your own words? I think anyone should be able to identify hate speech, and easily define it. Let me help you, as you do seem to be waffling. If one Texan walks up to another Texan he hasn't seen in a long time and says, "Why Joe Bob, you ole son of a b*tch, how yall doin?" with a grin on his face... That isn't hate speech, and will be accepted with a grin and cordial reply. On the other hand, if the same Texan walks up and says, "You son of a b*itch, quit messing in my business," the result will be entirely negative, because that is an aggressive, hate speech attack. Context is everything. And when the speaker follows up, as Churchull has, with statements such as: Catherine Clyne: "Your recent works detail the documentable history of the consequences of U.S. imperialism. After reading On the Justice of Roosting Chickens and listening to your two CDs, what do you want your audience to walk away with? Churchill: A fundamental understanding of the nature of their obligation to intervene to bring the kind of atrocities that I’ve described to a halt by whatever means are necessary. .....(Churchill)... " I want the state gone: transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether. " The above from the Churchhill interview in sayta.mag Now, how does the "little eichmanns" comment sound, based on the last quotation. How do you get something "Out of existence?" Does the previous quotation provide you a clue? A small hint?

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 07:53:04 AM EST
    This guy should be fired. He's only defended by a lot of you people because somewhat sympathetic to what he says. If he was up there, ranting about how black people deserved to die in 9/11 b/c they weren't contributing anything to society, nobody would be talking this academic freedom stuff. Hate speech is hate speech.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 08:03:08 AM EST
    Back on Dec '41, would anyone have ever conceived such sedicious thoughts against our citizens residing in Wake, The Phillipines, Hawaii or Guam? Why must we ponder the motivational impulses of a mugger that assaults us in a dark corner? When such a horrible crime occurs to you, the criminal's deprived background is none of one's concern. To reflect otherwise would be to blame the victim for the agressor's actions.Agression of that barbaric kind, can't be reasoned with. You can't cuddle our current enemies into submission. In our society, when a sociopath goes out on a rampage we take him out. We only introspect on his psycho/social illnes only when he is either behind bars or pushing up daisies. In the meantime, we as a society, prosecute him without mercy. The same is said for our foreign enemies. The cuddling and healing will come after they are utterly destroyed. Witness The Marshall Plan in Germany and Japan. There was no stone left over stone in those two countries countries in '45. Only when the global threat of fascism was done and over with, did we focus our attention to healing those societies. It is beyond words, to see a fellow citizen blame his own flesh and blood for the atrocities of September 11th. An atrocity of foreign aggression, on our own soil. Shame Dr. Churchill.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 11:52:25 AM EST
    It is beyond words, to see a fellow citizen blame his own flesh and blood for the atrocities of September 11th. An atrocity of foreign aggression, on our own soil. As Churchill points out, the attacks on the US were virtually a foregone conclusion from our foreign policy decisions, utterly predictable and thus avoidable. Therefore, the US government and by extension, the US citizenry, are proximate causes for the attacks, since a greater political awareness on the part of the US populace would have made them aware of what their government was doing. In any case, both the 9/11 attacks and the Iraq war were perpetrated by people very willing to kill innocent bystanders to accomplish their policy goals. The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. Don't believe me? Bin Laden said it himself! So, Bin Laden attacks the US in order to end US abuses against Arabs. And Bush attacks Iraq in order to end Saddam abuses against Iraqis. Both were willing to kill innocent bystanders. Who is "justified"? No one deserves to die the way those people did on 9/11, but the apparent proximate causes of their deaths are the actions of the US government and the larger geopolitics surrounding it. So when you justifiably excoriate Bin Laden for his willingness to kill innocents to achieve policy points, remember to do the same for George Bush, who killed thousands of US troops and tens of thousands of Iraqis to achieve policy points as well.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 11:58:39 AM EST
    Entropy... The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. And those documented abuses would be.....???? Don't believe me? Bin Laden said it himself! Well.... it must be true then... we all know he's an upstanding guy. Nice talking points...but they don't fly

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:04:04 PM EST
    The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. And those documented abuses would be.....???? AH, here we go. So, if I actually present evidence of US (and/or US-supported Israeli) abuses of Arabs in the Middle East, then you will completely and utterly agree with my point? Just to make this clear, you completely and utterly agree with me if I provide evidence of US abuses in the Middle East? If you argue that you STILL won't agree with me if I provide evidence of Middle East abuses, please explain why and on what basis.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:07:35 PM EST
    Entropy, what type of ambivalent double talk is coming out of your keyboard? You are elevating the twisted syncopathic logic of Bin Laden, to that of our President. By-the-way, I am not glorifying Bush in this; Gore would have reacted the same way. When a foreign power struck at us on Dec '41, our president stoodup and declared open war on our then enemies. To this day, no one dares to call Roosevelt a blood thirsty killer of innocents. Our President then declared war on tyrany. For this, we have him today in our pantheon of great presidents. Open your coin purse and you will see his visage. Though not in the same league of grateness, today's President has reacted in the same exact way, and yet he only deserves our contempt? Boquisucio

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    When a foreign power struck at us on Dec '41, our president stoodup and declared open war on our then enemies. To this day, no one dares to call Roosevelt a blood thirsty killer of innocents. We didn't provoke that foreign power, however. In this particular case, there is significant evidence that we ourselves have caused the Arabs to attack us by our abuses and attempts to be a hegemonic power in the Middle East. Their actions could be (and probably to them are) justified as self-defense. Like Churchill says, how do they make us see the pain we are inflicting on them without inflicting pain on us? Write letters? I'm not defending the attacks, I'm simply pointing out that they were utterly predictable and unsurprising results of our own actions.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:18:28 PM EST
    The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. Let me follow the logic of this arguement: 1) The attackers of 9/11 slapped us because we are friends of Israel. 2) It is a well documented fact that the attacker firends want Israel to cease from existence. 3) Thus,our attackers want us to withdraw our firendship from Israel, so it will be easier for the friends of the attackers to destroy the only Midle Eastern Western Democracy out of Existence. I see you point crystal clear. You are siding with our enemies. Boqusucio

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:23:27 PM EST
    We didn't provoke that foreign power... In the Summer of '41 we saw the shape of Japanese agression throughout Asia, thus we set upon a trade embargo against the Japanese. This was one of the principal justifications for the Japanese to strike at us at Wake, The Phillipines and Hawaii, six months thereafter. It still did not make it right for the Japanese to strike at us, and it still doesn't make it right for the Arabs to do the same on Sept '01. Boquisico

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:26:32 PM EST
    I see you point crystal clear. You are siding with our enemies. The question here is really simple. Have we done things in the Middle East that a reasonable person would consider to be abusive or evil? i.e., things that if someone else did them to us, we'd be really upset? This is a simple question of fact. If it's true, then you must utterly agree with my point. If it's false, then of course my entire point falls down, because then we're being attacked by crazy people. So, that's the question, I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other person. Do you agree that if I present evidence of US/Israeli abuses of Arabs on the order of the 9/11 attacks, then you will agree to utterly fold in this argument?

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:30:01 PM EST
    "In this particular case, there is significant evidence that we ourselves have caused the Arabs to attack us by our abuses and attempts to be a hegemonic power in the Middle East." Oh please, I'm sure creative people like you could come up with some "signficant evidence" that we deserved to be attacked by the Japanese. Stop defending this guy's hate speech just because you're sympathetic to its message. He still said Americans deserved to die because they were working in finance in the World Trade Center. Where's the academic value in that thought? Can this hater monger bozo....

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:39:15 PM EST
    Oh please, I'm sure creative people like you could come up with some "signficant evidence" that we deserved to be attacked by the Japanese. Once again, I will make the same challenge. If I present documented abuses of the US/Israel against the Arabs, stuff that if someone did it to us, we'd be pissed, you will stop arguing and utterly agree with my point? Stop defending this guy's hate speech just because you're sympathetic to its message. He still said Americans deserved to die because they were working in finance in the World Trade Center. Where's the academic value in that thought? I don't agree with what he wrote in that area, and it was poorly phrased, but you are in any case distorting what he wrote by paraphrasing it. His point was that the entire American public is guilty because we did not demand that our leaders stop the aggression. Where were protests against the Iraq embargo that killed something on the order of 500K children? Where were protests against the Central America death squads we financed? In any case, whether that particular statement was inflammatory or trolling does not invalidate his main point.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:41:09 PM EST
    What Evil American/Israeli Agregression yer yelpin' about? Our good President Clinton, and Minister Barat bent over backwards in Wyth Pantation and latter in Taba, and the "peaceful, inocent" Palestinians still didn't setlle for peace. Any Palestinian civilian deaths are caused by Israel, are regretably part of the ongoing warfare that the Palestinians have up to now wished to continue. Boquisucio

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:46:16 PM EST
    What Evil American/Israeli Agregression yer yelpin' about? Our good President Clinton, and Minister Barat bent over backwards in Wyth Pantation and latter in Taba, and the "peaceful, inocent" Palestinians still didn't setlle for peace. You are implicitly agreeing with my point while trying to head off my logic at the pass. By what you wrote here, you are implicitly agreeing that if the US/Israel are responsible for bona fine unjustified abuses against Arabs (Palestinians, Saudis, Lebanese, other people), then the 9/11 attacks are predictable responses to those abuses? I'm not trying to argue any particular case of abuses right now, just trying to get you to agree with the point: if the US is guilty of abuses, then the 9/11 attacks are predictable responses and we are at least partially to blame. Do I understand you correctly that we agree on this contention? If not, please explain where you differ.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:46:36 PM EST
    Where were protests against the Iraq embargo that killed something on the order of 500K children? Funny that you mention Oil For Food. The only ones to be blamed for the deaths of Iraqui Children during the '90's, are Sadam, the kleptocratic bureaucracy of the UN, and Banque de Lyon who funneled countless Billions out of the children's mouths and into fat cat's pockets. There you go again blaming the victim, and not the agressor.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:48:19 PM EST
    "Once again, I will make the same challenge. If I present documented abuses of the US/Israel against the Arabs, stuff that if someone did it to us, we'd be pissed, you will stop arguing and utterly agree with my point?" This is not relevant to whether Churchill should remain employed. And I most certainly can take isolated quotes of hate here. This is the whole point. Maybe there is something in his diatribe worth discussing, but when you cross the line into bascially saying Americans should be killed for having woke up and gone to work in the morning, that's it. End of story, the line has been crossed. There's is no way taxpayer dollars should be used for this guy's salary, no more than if some kkk idiot was preaching white power from the prof's chair.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:05:04 PM EST
    Sorry but there is nothing implicit in my statement. At one point, Israel was in open warfare with Egypt and Jordan. All sides came bilaterally to the table with honest intentions and true peace (in the western sense of definition) was found. Not the Hudna that is batted around. If the Palestinians would come around and honestly seek out peace with its neighbors, peace will also be found. I don't know what sins you want for me to expiate on behalf of all the deaths of 9/11. I don't know whether you were asleep on that day, but to me the events that unfolded that day are not an Academic abstraction. I saw with my own eyes the Pentagon burn that morning. I know of good people that perished on AA Flight 77. That is something that will forever be seared into my soul. What you seek is to expiate the collective imaginary sins of those who perished that awful day. To do so would be an abomination, of all that's sane and good in this world.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:12:42 PM EST
    First off,why dont you wingers can WWII anal-ogies once and for all- the right loathed FDR(many still do),who was at least as liberal as John Kerry in most respects,until it was proven that we could kick ass (always makes wingers so doggone proud),even with a liberal in office. Fact is,the right is afraid of genuine intellectual debate because theyve become reliant on the over-heated rhetoric of flatulent gas bags like Linbaugh,around-the- clock p.r generated sound and thought-bites and fire-and-brimstone"faith based"ideas. Hence the string-um-up,"can the bozo" reaction. Not gonna happen-deal with it.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:16:47 PM EST
    I don't know what sins you want for me to expiate on behalf of all the deaths of 9/11. I don't know whether you were asleep on that day, but to me the events that unfolded that day are not an Academic abstraction. I saw with my own eyes the Pentagon burn that morning. I know of good people that perished on AA Flight 77. That is something that will forever be seared into my soul. You simply prove my point. Bin Laden himself wrote awhile ago that he saw identical things caused by the US in the Middle East: innocents dead, thousands uprooted, etc. And this was stuff that you didn't see. So of course you're going to be really emotional about things that directly affect you. You're really upset about the 3K killed in 9/11, but the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis half a world away that are dead, is that "seared into your memory"? The victims of death squads trained at the "school of the Americas"? Is that "seared into your memory"? No. You never see it, so the levels of outrage you feel are much lower. The fact is that many people have seen those things with their own eyes and feel just as passionate as you do about 9/11. The difference is that they don't have military power and therefore can't make the kind of narrow distinctions we (try to) about civilian versus military casualties. The only way they can damage us is to kill civilians, so they'll take it. Again, disagree with me all you want, but I am describing their mind set. We can argue till we're blue in the face about this, but the fact is that these people feel that they are aggrieved and that we are responsible for their misery, and they feel that they aren't going to take it anymore.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:23:21 PM EST
    When warfare is declared, sides are drawn. The middle ground simply evaporates. There are moments in history that sadly, necessitate this teutonic shift on society. This is one of them. Jondee, just because I do not sound like Tofu-packing Berkleyite, do not assume that I am a rigth-winged nut job. I am very proud to carry my Democrat Voter Registration in my wallet. There was once a time in which our party was full of good honest people God fearing people. Sadly it has been captured by the likes of you.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:24:14 PM EST
    If this group would honestly support some hate monger Professor talking about how all Latin Americans deserved to die in trade centers because they offered nothing to society, then fine. But I don't belive it. You are selective in your approval of "academic freedom". The prof. in my example should be fired, and so should this idiot hate monger Churchill.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:26:33 PM EST
    "All thats sane and good in this world". Thank dog we're the major shareholders of THIS commodity. Otherwise,we might have to answer for those Vietnamese and Iraqi kids we blew to confetti.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:30:20 PM EST
    "Tuetonic shift" - Freudian slip of the week.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:34:00 PM EST
    PPJ, I just looked at that link and you are taking the comment out of context. He's advocating something that's in my opinion totally unrealistic, but that's another story. "What’s on the map instead? Well let’s just start with territoralities often delineated in treaties of fact—territoralities of 500 indigenous nations imbued with an inalienable right to self-determination, definable territoralities which are jurisdictionally separate. Then you’ve got things like the internal diasporic population of African Americans in internal colonies that have been established by the imposition of labor patterns upon them. You’ve got Appalachian whites. Since the U.S. unilaterally violated its treaty obligations, it forfeits its rights—or presumption of rights—under international law. Basically, you’ve got a dismantlement and devolution of the U.S. territorial and jurisdictional corpus into something that would be more akin to diasporic self-governing entities and a multiplicity of geographical locations. A-ha, chew on that one for awhile. There’s no overarching authority other than consensus or agreement between each of these. There has to be a collaborative and cooperative arrangement rather than something that’s centrally organized and arbitrarily imposed. " I think the guy sounds like a total jerk, frankly. And a pretentious, misanthropic one at that. But at least he's got everyone talking!!! Just, please, don't get all "I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find a professor mouthing off like this!" This isn't the first time, it won't be the last, and the only remedy for speech is MORE SPEECH.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:42:24 PM EST
    link to the full context of quotations taken out of context earlier. I also just came back from reading the full interview. Note that in it he refers again to his "little Eichmanns" comparison. If one takes the time to read the 18-page version of C

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 01:53:57 PM EST
    Sorry for the glitch-- . . . if one takes the time to read the longer version (18 pages) from the Colorado AIM site, one will also find a fuller discussion of how he intends that comparison. Again, I have posted links to materials that enable people to understand the fuller contexts of his remarks. I myself am still in the process of reading additional comments. The longer version makes clear that Churchill believes that both "conservatives" and "progressives" in the U.S. of America are equally culpable for not curtailing immoral actions by the "state" (federal government) and that, for all the marches, candlelight ceremonies, petitions many of us participate in and sign and writings that we attempt, our responsibility (both "collective" and "individual") for the actions of our elected officials (whether or not we voted for them ourselves) remains. In that group of people, by the way, he includes both himself and his own family. His point is that none of us is "innocent." Academics who have pension plans and benefit from stock funds (as he himself probably does--e.g., TIAA-Cref or a Colorado state pension plan) are no less "little Eichmanns" from his perspective than those working in the WTC. Most of us (inc. him and me) drive cars, buy manufactured goods, and enjoy the pleasures of life in America. The point that he appears to be making is that none of us is exempt from the history of our country, that we are all complicit in it, some more consciously than others, and that "ignorance" or "ignoricity" (his word) is no excuse.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 02:03:41 PM EST
    Direct link (again) to the longer (18-page) version: "The Ghosts of 9-1-1 [sic]: Reflections on History, Justice and Roosting Chickens" (He explains why he types "9-1-1" instead of "9-11" in the 1st para., page 1.) For additional contextualization of the metaphor "little Eichmanns," see pages 12-13 (in my print out--followed by footnote number 127; notes don't print out from that version for some reason). (For additional links to his "articles" hosted on COAIM, go to "perspectives" link the their lefthand menu.)

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 02:08:49 PM EST
    This article in today's Salon (you have to subscribe or watch an ad for the article, sorry!) seems very apropos. It's about David Irving's libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt. Irving is the notorious Holocaust denier. Lipstadt basically said he was full of s**t academically, and he didn't appreciate it. He lost the suit. And actually, this article kind of made me think again about this. It's one thing to state controversial opinions, and another thing to do shoddy research and come up with conclusions that are blatently and demonstrably false. Anyway, still wrestling with this one, but it's an interesting article.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 02:22:55 PM EST
    My allusion to Churchill's including himself and his family in his moral indictment of Americans in their own history and the actions of their goverment "in their name," is to the following passage from his Jan. 31, 2005 press release:
    The bottom line of my argument is that the best and perhaps only way to prevent 9-1-1 style attacks on the U.S. is for American citizens to compel their government to comply with the rule of law. The lesson of Nuremberg is that this is not only our right, but our obligation. To the extent we shirk this responsibility, we, like the "Good Germans" of the 1930s and '40s, are complicit in its actions and have no legitimate basis for complaint when we suffer the consequences. This, of course, includes me, personally, as well as my family, no less than anyone else. (Italics added.)
    (posted on Colorado AIM blog and in many other newspapers/sites).

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 02:29:14 PM EST
    (I'll read that Salon article in a moment, just returning to post the following first:) Churchill wants U.S. citizens to "compel" their government to do what he advocates, including requiring the U.S.A. to recognize the International Criminal Court etc. and then enabling it to indict some of its leaders (e.g., former Sec'y of States Madeleine Albright and Henry Kissinger and other key officials of what he considers U.S. genocidal policies and practices) for war crimes and crimes against humanity. How citizens of the U.S.A. "compel" the government to do such is not clear in the various essays of his that I have read so far. (What will "compel" George Bush et al. to reverse U.S. government policy re: the ICC etc.?) From Churchill's perspective, elections didn't seem the way, since he gave no more credence to a potential Kerry/Edwards administration than he does to a Bush/Cheney one. He speaks about "non-violence" but casts non-violent protests such as they exist already as going hand in hand with governmental "violence." He claims to be "non-violent" and "non-revolutionary." But I do not know precisely what he is advocating in place of what American "dissidents" who protest the ways and means of their federal government are already doing. I don't know what his position is re: the current Bush impeachment efforts led by former Attorney General Ramsey Clark (not a very massive effort [yet], even among so-called "progressives." Short of making his readers and listeners aware of his arguments, I am not sure what practical "non-violent" methods of overturning the current government (or "abolishing" the entity the "United States of America"), he is recommending. Surely, the confirmation of Alberto Gonzales as the new Attorney General is not going to bring the U.S. closer to Professor Churchill's larger goals.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 01:39:34 PM EST
    Holy Mother! Doesn't this arguement really cover all the hot topics? -The difference between Left and Right. -Why THEY hate U.S.? -Why pacisfists are apologists for right wing Islamic radicals. The jihadists were NOT justified in killing americans. Duh. Yet, the US army is justified in invading any country it chooses, even when their obscene display of force leads to the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians? This is literally madness. For an example of what people in this forum have REALLY been talking about let's look at the Isreali-Palestinian conflict. [Ed. Let's not]

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#39)
    by james on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 03:54:42 PM EST
    Why was that post edited down? [Ed. Because it was off topic, ranting, and a diatribe.]

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#40)
    by james on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 04:38:38 PM EST
    Most of the comments on this thread are off topic. Churchill's essay is nothing but ranting and a diatribe. Who are you to decide which diatribe is important and should be read? How can you simultaneously condemn the censorship of Churchill and censor a poster?

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 05:10:12 PM EST
    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 05:12:58 PM EST
    James, thank you for pointing out the off-topic comments. I hadn't seen them. I am going to delete them now. This site gets between 300 and 500 comments a day. I try to read them all, but on busy days, I miss a few. I count on readers letting me know so I clean up the threads.