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LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Moving Cars

By TChris, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:00:41 AM EST
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by TChris

LAPD Chief William Bratton is having trouble explaining why the department he heads hasn't changed its policy regarding shooting at moving vehicles, despite his recognition a year ago that the policy requires revision. Had the process moved more swiftly, a 13-year-old might be alive today.

Officer Steven Garcia, a 9-year veteran, fired 10 shots early Sunday at 13-year-old Devin Brown, who was driving a stolen 1990 Toyota Camry. Garcia, standing outside his police car, opened fire when Devin allegedly backed the Toyota toward the patrol unit.

Garcia is less than a model cop, having been disciplined for threatening an ex-girlfried so she wouldn't cooperate with an unrelated investigation of his conduct. Still, the larger issue is the department's failure to address the risks that inhere in shooting at a moving target.

The last high-profile incident in which an LAPD officer shot and killed a motorist occurred nearly a year ago in Santa Monica, where police killed a man who backed his car toward officers at the end of a televised 90-minute pursuit. At the time, Bratton announced that he wanted to place new, more stringent restrictions on officers firing at moving vehicles.

Bratton said the department is considering policies from four agencies — the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, San Francisco Police Department, Boston Police Department and Miami Police Department — that would "potentially prohibit shooting from a moving vehicle or at a moving vehicle unless the officer is threatened by deadly force other than the moving vehicle."

It's time to stop "considering" solutions; it's time to solve the problem.

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    LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Moving Cars | 56 comments (56 topical)
    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:32:35 AM EST
    This was clearly a tragedy. Of course if the child hadn't stolen a car, fled from police, and then backed the car into the police car then he wouldn't have been in a position to be shot. Please note that the child did not back the car "toward" - he backed it INTO the police car. "When Devin, who was driving, allegedly backed into the officers' car, Garcia opened fire." -C

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:03:19 AM EST
    Cliff, you are such an Amerikkkan fascist for suggesting such a thing. Next thing you know you'll be in favor of laws prohibiting the stealing of cars, fleeing from police, or trying to harm the police.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:27:30 AM EST
    Such a tragedy for the poor defenseless boy that innocently backed the vehicle into the squad car after being repeatedly told to get out of the car. Do you understand that that is assault with a deadly weapobn? Penal Code 245. Look it up sometime. I don't care if the kid is 8 or 80, assault a cop with a weapon and you die.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:17:54 AM EST
    You guys crack me up. The kid was 13! Obviously deserved to be arrested and punished, not to be shot and killed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd expect a trained police officer to shoot only as a last resort.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#5)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:30:22 AM EST
    Of course they handle it a bit different in other parts of the country - That's when Sand Lake police officers Bill Bogner and Jay Osga spotted the slow-moving car, without lights on, weaving over curbs and plowing through snow banks. They figured the driver was drunk, or suffering a medical problem, as they followed the car to an apartment complex. They blocked in the car before the driver put it in reverse and hit the gas, crashing into the police cruiser. "You're thinking worst-case scenario, especially after somebody backs into our car, with the lights flashing," Bogner said Monday. "We're hollering to put his hands up, then we see it's a 4-year-old boy, and pulled him out of there." Kinda different than shoot first and lie about it later like the LAPD does.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    Kdog... The kid was 13! Obviously deserved to be arrested and punished, not to be shot and killed. You deserve what you do....The cops don't know what this person (13 or not) can or will do. I'm sure more than one 13 year old has threatened to kill police before. Besides, all this could have been avioded if : A...he never stole the car in the first place b...he didn't lead police on a high speed chase c...he put his hands up & got out of the car like they asked him to d...he didn't threaten them by ramming their car. Yes???? Once again (in typical leftie fashion) let's blame everybody but who is actually guilty!

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:42:53 PM EST
    BB, sorry if I expect more from a police officer than letting off 10 shots because a car backed into his. Maybe the kid thought it was in park? I can't argue that the kid started the chain of events, but from the article, it doesn't seem the officer's life was in jeapordy. Hence, no need to execute an on site death sentence for grand theft auto. I wouldn't want a cop like that anywhere near my neighborhood, it's just not safe.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#8)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    You just saw 2 examples of exacly the same circumstances with totally different outcomes. So you are saying the 4 yr old should have been killed by the cops too? Another point, while one cop in L.A. is shooting 10 rounds into a child his partner never even drew his gun. Must have felt very threatened. People with attitudes like your make me fear for my life, so I hope you don't mind if I shoot you.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:04:55 PM EST
    Sailor, What planet are you from? The exact same circumstances? Even you can't believe that...OH wait, of course you can.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:37:37 PM EST
    sailor.... I'm assuming this comment was for me..? People with attitudes like your make me fear for my life, so I hope you don't mind if I shoot you. My attitude as you put it, stems from haiving nephews, brother-in-laws & cousins on various police forces. And it's very easy for someone like you to second guess (after the fact) what should have been done, however, unless you've ever had to make a split second - life or death decision, you are not really qualified to comment & be taken seriously.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:49:34 PM EST
    How refreshing to know that all the right-wing facist wannabes flocked like moths to a flame for this one - at least no one can call you hypocrites - you have as little sympathy for an American juvenile as you do for a Muslim detainee. How quaintly consistent. Patrick writes:
    The exact same circumstances? Even you can't believe that...
    If the cops had shot the 4 year old, you and the murderer cop would both be saying that the car didn't stop and the driver didn't respond to orders. By your standards and that of the LAPD (with its storied and colorful record of executing - yes executing suspects) they were both situations where force was theoretically justified. The fact that I back my car into a police car (not alive, by the way), is not an excuse to shoot me, even if there is probable cause to detain and even arrest me. This may differ from the opinions of the knee-jerk patriots around here, but police get paid to put their lives on the line. The fact that the job occasionally puts you in danger does not give you the right to shoot suspects for resisting arrest. Really, the crew of you make me sick. I can't believe that on a site that supports defendants rights one has to wade through such hateful, racist, uninformed opinions.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:56:06 PM EST
    Sailor at February 8, 2005 02:44 PM ...so I hope you don't mind if I shoot you. that would be the republican solution Cliff at February 8, 2005 10:32 AM BocaJeff at February 8, 2005 11:03 AM crono at February 8, 2005 11:27 AM B.B. at February 8, 2005 02:08 PM Patrick at February 8, 2005 03:04 PM human sickness. B.B. at February 8, 2005 03:37 PM ...unless you've ever had to make a split second - life or death decision, you are not really qualified to comment & be taken seriously. so why are you still posting then. from your character as presented here it becomes obvious that your life is a total waste, here's hoping you get stopped by some jack boot, over zealous, incompetent(apparently can't shoot straight). Ten shots, dumb biootch he was shooting to kill from the start. pure excrement you are. these incidents that you take so lightly will be returning to you personally. life has a way of balancing itself

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:57:43 PM EST
    Tragedy? yes. Overeaction on the police officers part? Maybe. Understandable? Yeah because the cop didn't know it was a thirteen year-old driver, he only knew that he percieved he was being attacked by a criminal. How many lawyers are lining up to sue on the family's behalf? Innumerable, I'm sure. The real question and the saddest of all is how did this kid become so beligerent at such a young age? I am sure his family are being portrayed as sterling examples of parenthood and that is very sad also. Sad indeed.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:58:28 PM EST
    The same people are always the apologists. Troops do no wrong, cops do no wrong, etc. I lived in LA for 8 years and feared the police more than anything else. In those days the shoot first figure it out later attitude was justified after the fact by the dead person having always been on PCP. One issue here is whether the officer followed departmental proceedures and the second issue is if the departmental proceedures adequate or complete.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:08:36 PM EST
    How many lawyers are lining up to sue on the family's behalf? Innumerable, I'm sure. The real question and the saddest of all how did this kid become so beligerent at such a young age? I am sure his family are being portrayed as sterling examples of parenthood and that is very sad also Any evidence to back any of this up or just spewing the normal line without regard to accuracy? First, there is nothing in the article suggesting he has a record. 2nd his father recently died maybe he's going through a difficult period. Of the 10 shots fired by the officer 5 hit a police car so he put other officers in danger. From the article
    LAPD officers are now entitled to use deadly force to protect themselves or others from the immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. They also are permitted to shoot at fleeing felons, but only in cases in which the target is suspected of having seriously hurt or killed someone — or having attempted to — and there is a "substantial risk" that the suspect will do so again if not apprehended.
    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#16)
    by cp on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 04:30:42 PM EST
    gee, last time i checked, an unoccupied police car can't be put in fear of its life by, well.............anyone. in fact, the use of deadly force, to prevent a strictly property crime, is severely restricted, throughout the united states. that's because property can be replaced, people can't. officer garcia displayed what appears to be unusually poor judgement, for a presumably trained professional. further, this appears to be consistent with him, based on what i've read. this guy shouldn't be licensed as a cop. actually, he shouldn't have been on the street at all, based on the unrelated incident he was involved in. i guess "disciplined" means something different for police, than it does for us mere mortals. unfortunately, clods like him give the bulk of cops, doing their job in a professional manner, a black eye. they should be the ones pissed off at this bozo, for making them look bad. i wonder though, having seen these types of incidents all over the country in recent years, might there be an additional, contributing cause here? i refer to all the movies and tv shows, which have "police" committing acts that are clearly extra-legal, if not just outright dangerous, to themselves and innocent bystanders. is it possible that some of the real-life police watch these things, and then try to be "dirty harry" in real life? just a theory.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:41:19 AM EST
    You people are touched. Maybe you should try being a cop sometime? A cop knows nothing about who is in the vehicle, what they've down, or what they're capable of doing! All they know is that 2 tons of steel and whatever is heading towards them. Touched indeed.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 06:22:20 AM EST
    Betcha that kid won't steal anymore cars! his friends probably won't either!

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:07:31 AM EST
    I'll try one more time.... The officers car had the kids car pinned. Both cars had stopped. The officer exited his car. The kids car backed up (no time or space to reach any dangerous speed). The cops life was not in jeapordy. The cop let off ten shots and murdered a 13 yr. old kid. And the moral cretins above see nothing wrong with this. I suggest this officer be transferred to BB's or BocaJeff's neighborhood. Feel safer fellas?

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:23:33 AM EST
    Kdog- ANY car in motion faster than you can jump out of the way of is a deadly weapon. This is a tragedy, sure, but in my view I'm more upset that this 13 yr old kid had such wonderful supervision and upbring that he was out jacking cars in the first place, and that he made the bad decision to not get out of the car and surrender when cornered and trapped. Bad things that occur as a result of a crime being committed are the fault and responsibility of the person commiting the crime.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:29:24 AM EST
    Bad things that occur as a result of a crime being committed are the fault and responsibility of the person commiting the crime.
    You're not serious are you? The courts don't agree. There are limits on the use of force. The lengths the apologists will go to relieve cops, troops etc from all responsibility. Excessive force would be the responsibility of the officer. Was this case excessive or improper use of force? On the surface it seems possible, more details are needed.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:33:55 AM EST
    This is a tragedy, sure, but in my view I'm more upset that this 13 yr old kid had such wonderful supervision and upbring that he was out jacking cars in the first place
    are you also upset that his father recently died and there's no evidence I saw that suggests that he has a record. Maybe he needed help dealing with the death of his father. The fact is neither of us know for sure given the article.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:36:08 AM EST
    Yes, I am serious. A guy has a heart attck and dies during a holdup, the robber is likely to be charged with manslaughter. If the kid surrendered and the cop shot him or beat him up- then that is excessive force. The kid didn't do that. A car is dangerous weapon, even if it is slow moving- This cop should have played matador until he could get to the window and give the kid a stern talking to? The problems lie with the kid commiting the crime in the first place, not the tragic outcome.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:42:36 AM EST
    YouthofT... so why are you still posting then. Because I know people that have been in that situation... do you? from your character as presented here it becomes obvious that your life is a total waste, Really, you got all that from my post did you? here's hoping you get stopped by some jack boot, over zealous, incompetent(apparently can't shoot straight). Well, next time I plan on stealing a car I'll keep my fingers crossed. Ten shots, dumb biootch he was shooting to kill from the start. Yes, usually when a cop draws his gun, that's his intention. At least that's what they teach at cop school. pure excrement you are. Why, because I don't jump on the police (& our troops) like you lefties do and claim them all guilty automatically? Why not put the blame where it should be... the kid who stoled the car and then ignored police orders!

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:48:09 AM EST
    Kdog.... The cops life was not in jeapordy. Do you know this? Where you there? And the moral cretins above see nothing wrong with this. Most of us 'moral cretins' probably would be willing to wait till all the facts are in before we hang the cop automatically. Is that ok with you? I suggest this officer be transferred to BB's or BocaJeff's neighborhood. Feel safer fellas? I bet nobody will be stealing my cars!

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:52:20 AM EST
    Soccerdad- That is sad about his father, I'm sure this kid was having a hard time dealing with his death. Perhaps that did play a part. Unfortunately, Police cannot call time out and get all the particulars. Another thing to consider: would you want to anywhere in the area if the poor spooked kid had gotten away? How fast would he have been going then trying to get away from the Law? How many innocents are then at risk? The potential is there for the kid to have killed a family of three or four. The police have an obligation to end these situations quickly before they cause other problems and harm other people.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:02:14 AM EST
    The cops life was not in jeapordy. Do you know this? Where you there
    ? I don't know it wasn't, you don't know it was. I never said hang this cop, he deserves a trial (though investigations against police rarely go very far). At first glance, my impression is that this is excessive force, resulting in the murder of a child. Tragic...and possibly criminal.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:19:14 AM EST
    "ANY car in motion faster than you can jump out of the way of is a deadly weapon." Any THING that can be used as a dealy or dangerous weapon -- a coffee cup, say -- is a deadly weapon. "Bad things that occur as a result of a crime being committed are the fault and responsibility of the person commiting the crime." So if a cop shoots a kid for stealing a candy bar, it's the kid's fault he's dead? That being said, a few days after Christmas in Milwaukee, a woman lead cops on a long chase to avoid being arrested on a felony warrant. The chase ended when she T-boned a sedan driven by an 80-year- old man, killing him. Her father wrote to the journalsentinel to the effect that it was a shame the man died, but if the cops had not continued to chase her, he'd be alive. Excuse me, had they shot her early on in the chase, he'd be alive. It'd be a tragedy and all, but it would be HER family grieving, a far less tragic scenario imho. I've gotta go along with the folks who suggest the cop presumably was justified until and unless proven guilty.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:25:29 AM EST
    Another thing to consider: would you want to anywhere in the area if the poor spooked kid had gotten away? How fast would he have been going then trying to get away from the Law? How many innocents are then at risk? The potential is there for the kid to have killed a family of three or four
    Good thing they killed him then, there may have been a problem. /sarcasm God almighty, sometimes I just have trouble believing what some people write. BTW a moving car can be a dangerous weapon, but it poses a threat only if the policeman was in danger of being run over. Was he? The cop also put 5 bullets into another police car. Doesn't sound to me as if he is under control. But even if he had hit another cop it would have been ok since he was stopping potential problems.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:46:34 AM EST
    Soccerdad...If this cop firing ten bullets like a maniac shot a fellow cop, I'd bet the "kid deserved it" crowd above would be screaming for his badge. I guess they, like many others I'm afraid, think a cops life is worth more than others.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:00:23 AM EST
    Todd the cop writes:
    A cop knows nothing about who is in the vehicle, what they've done, or what they're capable of doing! All they know is that 2 tons of steel and whatever is heading towards them.
    I bet they know if they're in Beverly Hills or South Central. B.B. writes:
    unless you've ever had to make a split second - life or death decision, you are not really qualified to comment & be taken seriously.
    The relatives you mention are paid public servants who are supposed to be trained to make these kind of decisions. If your sense of cop brotherhood is so strong that the average cop in the street considers him/herself in a war zone (i.e. shoot first, ask later)then take it up with the police departments whose policies this violates. Gerry writes:
    Bad things that occur as a result of a crime being committed are the fault and responsibility of the person commiting the crime.
    and
    A guy has a heart attck and dies during a holdup, the robber is likely to be charged with manslaughter
    Make sure you shoot the next person who breaks into your house, Gerry. Can't wait to see you on Court TV. And actually, An elderly minister in Boston had a heart attack and dropped dead when a SWAT team burst through his door after getting an address wrong. Did the cop who made the mistake face manslaughter? Of course not, because the arrogance and fraternal bonds between many law enforcement officials forces them to defend each others actions even when in violation of departmental policy. Even when ending a very young life that arguably could have been well spent. I'd have a lot more respect for cops and allow them a little more benefit of the doubt if they wouldn't give themselves so much. If it was considered honorable to expose abuse and corruption, not as disgraceful as snitching on the Corleonnes (sp?).

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:34:15 AM EST
    mfox- I fully intend on shooting the next guy who breaks into my house. I'm in OK where we have a make my day law. I won't even have to go to court. As for your incident with the minister dropping dead from a SWAT breakin, the SWAT team was there legally, allbeit mistakenly. If I were the family, I would sue. I also submit that a car hitting you in South Central will kill you just as likely as a car car hitting you in Beverly Hills, or anywhere else for that matter.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:37:35 AM EST
    My heart goes out to the family of this unfortunate incident. The fact remains that he caused the police to point their weapons at him and that greatly increased his chances of being shot. I am not saying the police where or where not justified in their actions. There should and will be an investigation. There should also be a reinforcement of the fact that putting oneself in a position to be shot by local law enforcement is not the best defense to police brutality.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:53:30 AM EST
    To the idiot who suggested that the 4 year old situation was the same. That car was noty stolen, did not lead the cops on a high speed chase, and did not reverse itself towards the officer. I don't apologize for the troops. I actually want an investigation because I think it is much more widespread than we have been led to believe, but I also believe that the cop acted correctly. I don't care if he was 13, I don't care if his dad died. He broke multiple laws and endangered an officer's life. Cops are trained to shoot to kill, you don't shoot to injure. If a cop pulls out a gun, he better be prepared to use it.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:01:46 AM EST
    putting oneself in a position to be shot by local law enforcement is not the best defense to police brutality
    . ... and therein lies the rub. According to the NYPD, Amadou Diallo (sp?) put himself in a position to be shot. If the cops and wingnuts here don't think his actions are an unjustified use of force and abuse of power, take it up with the (obviously extremely left-wing, lol) LAPD whose policies he violated. In fact, call up Ahnuld and ask him why we even have these protections in place. Don't blame lefties for caring about human life. This to me is a no-brainer. The claim that a suspect who is trying to escape (especially in this case, where there was seemingly no evidence of intent on the part of the driver to assault an officer.) I don't believe for a minute that this cop felt his life was imminently endangered. He got pissed that some A**hole didn't stop when he said to. That's what he was convicted and executed for. Period. End of Story. You don't like that? Sorry, the evidence and departmental history speak for themselves and against this police action. To Gerry posing as me (hopefully erroneously, but I'd shoot you either way), you reply to me that: I also submit that a car hitting you in South Central will kill you just as likely as a car car hitting you in Beverly Hills, or anywhere else for that matter. First, the cop didn't get hit (as much as you wish he did to justify his actions). My point being that given your comment, which is true, the cop would have had time in his split second decision making to "profile" the criminal as to his motive and intent. If you don't think for a second that if he thought it was a rich white kid in the car (I am assuming it wasn't), he wouldn't have made a different decision re: pulling the trigger, then you're the one who's taken the vacation from reality.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:23:26 AM EST
    The cop over-reacted. If he had time to fire 10 shots, while his partner fired none, he should have been aiming at the tires, which, had he hit them, would have ensured that the kid did not drive away and could have been arrested.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:31:25 AM EST
    It seems that much of this discussion hinges on whether the cop's actions were lawful and/or within dept. policy. They are either were or they weren't, and none of us has enough information to make that judgement. The linked article is far from conclusive on the events of the incident so we just don't know what really happened. Heck, the linked article falsely claims that Rodney King's jury was "all-white" so who knows what other untrue items are presented as fact there. The greater question, to me, would be whether LA Police dept. policy should be changed such that an officer who's life is truly being threatened by a person using a vehicle as a deadly force would be forbidden from using deadly force in self-defense. I don't think the policy should be changed.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:59:14 AM EST
    justpaul, well said. We may disagree often, but this time your post is spot on. Though I would call it more than an over-reaction, it at least qualifies as reckless endangerment, if not manslaughter, IMO. I'll admit my mention of murder above was an over-reaction. Unfortunately, we will never know, as this case will never get near a courtroom, because the shooter wears a badge.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:36:07 PM EST
    mfox- That was an error, I did not mean to be a poser- my apologies! "The claim that a suspect who is trying to escape (especially in this case, where there was seemingly no evidence of intent on the part of the driver to assault an officer.)" I would submit that failing to stop the car in an apparently corraled situation is akin to waving a loaded weapon. No one knows the kid's intent, but we should all be aware of the potential harm that could be caused. " If you don't think for a second that if he thought it was a rich white kid in the car (I am assuming it wasn't), he wouldn't have made a different decision re: pulling the trigger, then you're the one who's taken the vacation from reality." This would go back to whether or not the cop felt threatened. You have stated you don't believe he did, I haven't the foggiest idea what the cop felt. I will say, if he did feel in danger, I do not know anyone that would question the kids social status as he pulled the trigger. Justpaul- "If he had time to fire 10 shots, while his partner fired none, he should have been aiming at the tires, which, had he hit them, would have ensured that the kid did not drive away and could have been arrested." Too much TV. First, a car can drive on shot out tires, just far from comfortably and not quite as fast. Second it is not an easy task to hit the tires (or anything) on a moving target with a handgun. Some tires can actually withstand certain smaller caliber rds, as well. ( speciously related, you can't shoot the tires of a jetliner out with any handgun). Ten shots is pretty nuts, although shooting through angled glass distorts aim. I do question whether or not they gave the kid a chance to stop after firing, or if the kid hit the gas when the lead started flying.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:25:50 PM EST
    Gerry: I appreciate your attempt to logically justify the policeman's actions. However give the litany of "maybes" and "possibly's" you come off to me as an apologist for his actions. You say
    I would submit that failing to stop the car in an apparently corraled situation is akin to waving a loaded weapon
    This is arguable, but I would submit that a gun is a weapon and a car is a tool that could be used as a weapon. If he ran towards the officer waving a golf club is that justifiable homicide on the part of the police? Also, does anyone know the prevalence of assault on a police officer with a deadly weapon with said weapon being an auto? Is this a particularly dangerous situation in itself? Can't most cops step out of the way? If they could have avoided being hit by the car but opened fire anyway, does this matter or is the true reason for their actions (as I suspect) that he didn't obey them/resisted arrest. If this is true, why not help cops by allowing them to kill anyone who resists arrest? This would go back to whether or not the cop felt threatened Is this really the only standard? Why then can't battered women murder their husbands while they sleep in self defense? (He's threatened to take her life before). I, unfortunately don't think cops are trained or suited to making decisions about who deserves to live or die, but I do expect them to be trained to differentiate between a vague or nascent threat and a clear and present threat. (Of course - if our government can't tell the difference, what chance does a poor beatcop have?). I say, if the cop feels threatened enough to kill someone, he'd better be as able and willing to justify his actions as the regular slob who gets mad at someone who threatens said slob's life by cutting them off on the highway. The badge elicits a higher standard being applied in my opinion. Not a free pass to kill our kids.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:40:16 PM EST
    Gerry Owen, No, not too much TV. I'm aware of the difficulties involved in driving a car with flat tires (I've done it with what we used to call a "field car"). Yes, it's possible, but one is very unlikely to outrun the police in such a vehicle. Furthermore, had the cop shot out one or two of the tires, chances are the kid would have realized he was in way over his head and surrendered. And yes, I'm aware of how difficult it can be to shoot the tires out on a moving vehicle (no, not from experience, but I have shot at moving targets, and even a slowly moving target can be hard to hit). However: We pay police officers to train with their weapons, and to be accurate with them. The cop could have simply waited until the car struck his police car and stopped, then shot at the tires (still no guarantee, but his odds just went up). The cop could also have simply fired his weapon into the ground once, which may have caused the kid to surrender as well. I'm not calling this "murder" and I'm not defending the kid, who did steal a car, did run a light, did lead cops on a chase, and apparently did try to run the car into the police cruiser, but in my opinion the cop did overreact. Had he fired once at the car and managed to kill the kid, it would still be a tragedy for the kid, but it would be a little more understandable; the cop had simply reacted badly and made a poor decision. But he fired ten shots, which to me says he overeacted. There was nothing in this story to indicate that he had reason to fear for his life to such an extent that he had to unload the whole clip (assuming he's using a gun with a standard 10 round clip; yes, I'm aware that some cops carry guns that hold more than that) into this car, especially given that his partner did not feel any such threat, or at least not enough of a one to even fire his gun at all. In the end, it's a judgement call. My opinion, based as it is on less than 100% of the story, is that the cop made the wrong call. But I wasn't there, it wasn't my life that was or was not on the line, and while I think this matter should be investigated fully, I'm not sure about a criminal trial. I don't know enough about the situation, the cop's history, or what his partner and anyone else who was there is saying to the investigators. I hope that whoever is responsible for that investigation takes it seriously.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#43)
    by cp on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:10:06 PM EST
    to the best of my knowledge, a 9mm isn't going to stop a two ton motor vehicle, just isn't big enough, and hasn't the knockdown power needed. given the situation, as described in the various and sundry articles, this cop was an accident looking for a place to happen. he wasn't in danger of being run over, he'd already gotten out of the way. the car was aiming at the stopped, unoccupied police cruiser. had the cop waited, the car would have been stopped anyway. this leads to the obvious question: what in the world did the cop think he was going to accomplish by unloading a clip at the car? not to mention, his aim wasn't all that great. clearly, not all the facts are in on this. yes, the boy was guilty of starting the whole thing. however, the cop was guilty (at least from what i've read) of exhibiting extremely poor judgement. that's what the police are supposedly trained to do, and get paid for, having good judgement in tense situations. otherwise, why bother having them at all? it would be cheaper to just have citizen vigilante groups.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:11:23 PM EST
    JustPaul- Bullets also richochet off the Wheel, surprisingly one of the few places on a car that will not absorb a round (the rest are in the engine block). "The cop could have simply waited until the car struck his police car and stopped, then shot at the tires (still no guarantee, but his odds just went up)." -Unless, of course, the officer or his partner was at risk of ending up between the two vehicles when they met. Not enough info! "The cop could also have simply fired his weapon into the ground once, which may have caused the kid to surrender as well." Depends on time. Situations evolve rapidly. I expressed concern over the 10 rounds, was there a pause for the kid to possibly finally surrender? Again, not enough info. also, the warning shot might be hard to hear inside a car with engine running or possibly stereo thumping. I am also interested in the partners' perspective- he may not have been in the path of the vehicle, or was busy diving out of the way, etc. again, not enough info. These should all be considered, and the cop probably needs to spend some time at the range. But what Led to this tragedy? who bears ultimate responsibility? The cop trying to do his job or the kid who stole a car, attempted to evade, and refused to comply with the officers and surrender? Does LA need to be the safest town to steal a car in?

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:15:28 PM EST
    "yes, the boy was guilty of starting the whole thing. however, the cop was guilty (at least from what i've read) of exhibiting extremely poor judgement." We could probably agree on this to a certain degree. But does this warrant new policies and procedures to make the streets safer for carjackers and crminals?

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:45:36 PM EST
    mfox- Having witnessed a guy with a 5 iron embedded in his skull, I would say yes, a golf club is a deadly weapon. The kid shouldn't have stolen the car, then he should have surrendered rather than put it in motion. There were lots of bad decisions that led to the cop having to make this kind of judgement call. Now everyone is second guessing and questioning the actions and integrity of an officer who shouldn't have had to MAKE that call in the first place if the kid would have surrendered-or better yet not have stolen the car in the first place. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone would want to be a cop. Kind of

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 03:03:23 PM EST
    Gerry Owen, It sounds to me like we pretty much agree that we don't have enough information to make a final call on this one, but it still seems to me, from what we do know, that the cop over-reacted on this one. Only time and the full facts will tell if that turns out to be true in real life.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 04:27:09 PM EST
    Why not use the short-barrel 12 gauge? "Stop!" He doesn't. Whack! Out goes the back window. "Stop, I said!" He throws it into reverse. Whack! out goes the back of his head. "Stop!"

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:17:37 PM EST
    mfox: I bet they know if they're in Beverly Hills or South Central.
    What does that have to do with anything? If I were going to steal a car, I think I would go to Beverly Hills before I would go to South Central! HELLO? What in the hell does the area a person is in matter? It still does not change the fact that the officers do not know who OR what is inside that vehicle!!! Not to mention what their intensions are.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:04:53 AM EST
    Justpaul- We aren't to far apart. There are definitely serious questions that need to be answered. Cops have to make seat of the pants calls all the time, and no one can be expected to make the right call everytime, no matter what policy or training is put in place. IMHO, I feel the person whose actions created the situation bears the ultimate responsibilty. This cop may need some retraining and his actions reviewed-but I fail to see this as a department wide problem.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:08:35 AM EST
    We could probably agree on this to a certain degree. But does this warrant new policies and procedures to make the streets safer for carjackers and crminals?
    Not safer for criminals alone, a new policy is needed to make the streets safer for pedestrians, officers, everybody. The less bullets whizzing around the better.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 09:03:58 AM EST
    Kdog- "The less bullets whizzing around the better." AGREED! But what is the best route to deter crime to prevent situations like this from occurring? If and when we find the answer to that one I'll buy the beer.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#53)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 09:35:08 AM EST
    “Had the process moved more swiftly, a 13-year-old might be alive today.” TL- I am certain that any new policy would still allow officers to shoot a driver that is trying to run them over. And it should; it is a perfectly reasonable defensive use of force. But lets assume that the policy was changed to ban just this kind of thing, any reasonable person would still defend their life by shooting a driver trying to run them over.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 06:17:19 PM EST
    first of all they officer only waited 6 sec after the veh came to a hault to open fire on this baby! and it was noted in the police report that the originally thought that the child was a drunk driver......and i know that many of u and i have drunken relatives that sometimes get in the driver seat when they shouldnt----so even if the officer's report is true and they believed the suspect to be a drunk driver, wouldnt u want them to wait more than 6 sec's to open fire on ur drunken relative? --- i mean im just asking

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 09:44:28 PM EST
    If this young man was where he should have been at 3:50AM all this would have been avoided. Needless to say, it DID happen and it is tragic. A young life lost is always a tragedy. Please remember also he was in the act of committing a crime(s) and the officers had a duty to protect themselves and any innocent bystanders if they felt threatened. They did their job. Put the responsibility for this tragedy on the right person.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:56:43 AM EST
    I feel that the young man should have been in bed at that time and the mom should be held responsible not the officer for doing the job of keeping the streets safe and the people should not say it only happens to the afican american culture because it has happen to other cultures as well. The afican americans just make it a bigger issue when it happens to there culture.

    Re: LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Movi (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 13, 2005 at 08:47:00 PM EST
    This happened in LA. First, cops are being targeted in LA. They have been shot (not shot at, shot) just cruising down the street. Second, gang activity occurs in the neighborhood where these kids were apprehended. The likelihood of a 13 & 14 yo NOT being involved with a gang in a situation like this is small. And no, I am not saying that just because they were African American. The parents always deny it, even when it is true beyond doubt. Third, kids age 13 & 14 can be like teens or they can be as hardboiled as adult criminals, depending on the child. Age is no reason to assume absence of a gun, absence of dangerous intent, or absense of the ability to carry out a crime. Fourth, engaging in a high speed chase is frequently fatal -- not necessarily for the driver but for innocent motorists who they hit or force off the road. Stealing a car and engaging in a high speed chase is NOT a prank. It usually means the person in the chase is drunk, on drugs, or has committed a serious crime -- hence the flight. These are not joyrides. Fifth, the other child got out of the car when told to do so. When the 13 yo did not, police had no way of knowing whether he was armed or not, but his resistence was clear. The cop had no way to know whether the kid had a gun and might shoot back, once flight didn't work. [remainder deleted due to length]

    LAPD Needs Policy Prohibiting Shooting at Moving Cars | 56 comments (56 topical)