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5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:20:56 AM EST
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Yesterday marked the 60th anniversary of the bombing of Dresden, Germany by allied and U.S. forces in World War II. Look who showed up and grabbed the attention:

Waving black flags and banners, thousands of neo-Nazis marched through the heart of Dresden yesterday on the 60th anniversary of the city's destruction by British and American bombers.

In the largest neo-Nazi demonstration in Germany's postwar history, about 5,000 people took part in a "funeral march" to mourn the civilians killed by the allied attack. The protest upstaged the official commemoration of the anniversary, during which the British ambassador laid a wreath at a cemetery where victims were buried.

They played the music of Wagner and Bach from their loudspeakers. There were "anti-fascists" who turned out to oppose them.

They crossed the Elbe towards the old city, they encountered several hundred anti-fascists. The organisers merely turned up the volume and played the Ride of the Valkyries....Several anti-fascists waved British, US and Israeli flags. Others chanted: "You lost the war" and "Stalingrad was wonderful". Confetti and pink paper aeroplanes with RAF markings were thrown.

As one elderly German woman remarked, "It's sad to see something like this happening in Germany again." Another said, "Look at them. You just have to look at their stupid faces. They do not represent us."

Unfortunately, that doesn't make them less dangerous. And apparently, they didn't spring up overnight.

The political establishment appears to have been taken completely unawares by the far-right's recent renaissance and the rise of the neo-Nazi National Party of Germany (NPD), which won 9.2% of the vote in last September's elections in Saxony.

Where did these neanderthals come from and what is causing their numbers to rise?

Support for the NPD appears to be rising, especially in depressed areas of the former communist East Germany, where unemployment averages 20%.m "My husband and I are NPD voters," said Anni Lutzner, who attended yesterday's NPD-organised rally in Dresden. "We believe that the German state favours foreigners and the Jews. She added: "There's no point in banning us - we'll simply find a new name."

Hundreds of young skinheads attended the neo-Nazi rally. But the marchers also included pensioners who were driven out, like vast numbers of German refugees, from East Prussia - now divided between Russia and Poland.

The NPD leader even blamed the U.S. and the war in Iraq.

Addressing the rally, the NPD's leader in the Saxon parliament, Holger Apfel, launched an attack on what he called the "gangster politics of the British and Americans".

He said: "They have left a trail of blood from the past to the present, via Dresden, Korea, Vietnam, Baghdad and - tomorrow possibly - Tehran. Terror and war have a name. And that name is the United States of America."

What's next for the NPD:

NPD...is contesting elections in Schleswig-Holstein this week and hopes to enter the federal parliament in next year's elections.

Chilling.

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    5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden | 79 comments (79 topical)
    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 11:13:36 PM EST
    Who's been pulling the stakes out of the hearts of the vampires both here and in Germany?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#2)
    by Andreas on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:55:31 AM EST
    Germany: 5 million unemployed—worst since World War II By Elisabeth Zimmermann, 5 February 2005 Germany: behind the ultra-right provocation in Saxony’s parliament By Ulrich Rippert, 31 January 2005 See also: WSWS : Germany

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:09:52 AM EST
    The horrible, ugly spectre of violent anti-semitism (which never really left the socialist utopia of Europe btw) is what bothers me most in this melee. A pity, indeed. Now, if only these neo-nazi types could have the guts to take on the real bad guys - islamofascists, who're invading europe in record numbers from the middle east and Turkey instead of threatening law-abiding liberalistric jews, we'd know that they aren't all gutless windbags all.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:18:45 AM EST
    Neo-Nazis march occasionally in Berlin as well; the difference being that in Berlin they tend to be outnumbered by the demonstrators against the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. In Dresden, most of the people who have hope of working have long since left the city, leaving only the elderly, the young and the chronically unemployable who tend to be poorly educated (i.e. school dropouts). These folks tend to be rather easily influenced by the simplistic jingoism of fascism. The far right political parties are only of any significance in the former East German states and I would suggest that they are, amongst other things, an outgrowth of the total denial of culpability that occurred in the East under the Communists. This is one of the great hazards of attempting to control the news in a society, it can have unforeseen repurcussions. I sometimes wonder how it would be in the US if the US were to try and assimilate Mexico with all of its economic and political problems. Cheers, Alan Tomlinson

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:36:53 AM EST
    are they sure they we're really neo-nazis, and not just young republicans on vacation? it can be really difficult to tell them apart

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:13:04 AM EST
    Look, look! ricky1756 made a clever point. He's compared the evil Rpubs to Nazis! How original. How smart. How......juvenile.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:30:59 AM EST
    Hey Ricky, what political philosophy did the Nazi party aspire to?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#8)
    by Andreas on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:38:36 AM EST
    Alan Tomlinson wrote:
    The far right political parties are only of any significance in the former East German states and I would suggest that they are, amongst other things, an outgrowth of the total denial of culpability that occurred in the East under the Communists.
    It is correct that those right-wing extremists are concentrated in that part of Germany which formerly was governed by the Stalinists. But the reason for this is somewhat more complex. The Stalinists have created the nationalist soil for those right-wing tendencies. The WSWS wrote four years ago:
    As long as Stalin entertained the hope of a neutralized Germany, outside the direct control of the Western powers, the German Stalinists were the dedicated advocates of a united German nation. The more the Cold War developed, the more hysterical their nationalism became. It was not limited to political questions; in the cultural arena the SED sang the praises of the nation in a way that embarrassingly brought to mind the cultural policy of the Nazis. As an example we quote from a speech given by the GDR's first prime minister in 1950 at the founding of the German Academy of the Arts. “If a really great and exalted national art is to unfold,” announced Otto Grotewohl, “the unity of our nation must be restored. That is not in contrast to the world. Quite the opposite, the greater value a work of art has for the entire world, for the whole of mankind, the deeper its roots are buried in the soil of the nation; the more international its significance, the more national are its characteristics, its origin and its form.” For those who still had not understood, he added: “The despairing flight of German artists into cosmopolitan trains of thought, into a falsely understood world citizenship, into the abandonment of national peculiarities is not a way out, but only weakens the will to live of one's own people and makes it unable to fulfil its national tasks.” Is xenophobia a legacy of Stalinist-ruled East Germany? By Peter Schwarz, 13 September 2000
    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:17:11 AM EST
    Freedom of speech, right to assemble. I don't know what guarantees the German constitution has for such things, but like Churchill's right to express unpopular ideas, the right of neo-nazis to express ideas is important even if their ideas stink. Dresden is of course an interesting place for them to march as it directs attention to an attack by US against a civilian population. Our targeting Dresden would be like an enemy targeting Omaha or Atlanta for firebobming. It's a war crime, pure and simple. Sherman's idea of total war, the march to the sea in the civil war carried forward into the 20th century. Then Americans act shocked and surprised when our civilian populations are targeted. I am not keen on nazi's, I don't like our domestic variety - the neocons - either, but I do extend to them the right to express their opinions, no matter how distasteful their opinions may be.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:20:00 AM EST
    Though I have a tendency to believe the Guardian more than most UK papers, I think this might be a little twisted out of shape. We recently had an inaugural and called it Black Thursday and we all wore black, also a woman spokesman did say something about changing their parties name to disassociate with Nazi's, and lastly many of us might also say something similiar to the quote in the article...They carried black balloons with the slogan: "Allied bombing terror - never forgive, never forget." Addressing the rally, the NPD's leader in the Saxon parliament, Holger Apfel, launched an attack on what he called the "gangster politics of the British and Americans". He said: "They have left a trail of blood from the past to the present, via Dresden, Korea, Vietnam, Baghdad and - tomorrow possibly - Tehran. Terror and war have a name. And that name is the United States of America."

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:23:34 AM EST
    Though I do agree with Ricki, another of Bush's foreign policy expenditures a la Ukraine and Valenzuela?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:54:18 AM EST
    To oversimplify, The further east you go in the former DDR, the higher the feeling of resentment. Unemployment runs rampant here, as many lost their jobs when the decrepit state companies collapsed in the face of Western products. As xenophobia grew, it scared away foreign invenstors and thus a vicious circle was born. What also makes this worse is how the former DDR never faced the past, never took responsibility for the Third Reich. Few of those growing up in East Germany ever confronted the role their parents played in the Holocaust: after all, the Communists were all too eager to portray themselves as the Resistance, the heroes who drove the Nazis out (and unwittingly made the Nazis more attractive to rebellious types). It is this combination of believing that Somebody Else is responsible for your woes and not knowing who the Nazis really were that helped this sickness germinate. Even now, people ask how the government could have let this happen, instead of asking how they themselves let this happen.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:02:18 AM EST
    Posted by: justpaul on February 14, 2005 06:30 AM Hey Ricky, what political philosophy did the Nazi party aspire to? The same one aspired to by today's Republics. My way or the highway.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:09:36 AM EST
    Tom, So today's Republicans are aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production? Got any evidence for that?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:15:41 AM EST
    Western Europe has moved so far to the left in these past 50 years, that it can only see the extremes of the FASCITS, (e.g.: The German NAZI's, the Hungarian MIEP, the Belgian Vlaams-Belang, or the Dutch, NIEUW-RECHT). Whenever STALINISTS rear their ugly head, you can only hear the sound of crickets in opposition. I put to you, that LePen and his Front National is just as hate-filled and extreme, as the Parti Communiste Français. Yet we reserve our vitriol only to LePen and his thugs. WHY???

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:18:31 AM EST
    justpaul with the amount of money the Repubs are spending it sure seems like it. and how are you equating socialism and facism?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:26:31 AM EST
    Great, we're finally at the stage where right wingers are ready to serve as apologists for neo-Nazis. Or at least ready to stand rock-ribbed and refuse to denounce neo-Nazis until the left agrees to knuckle under and denounce everyone to the left of Joseph Lieberman.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:36:10 AM EST
    GregZ et al. The National Socialist German Workers' Party In an economic sense, Nazism and Fascism are related. Nazism may be considered a subset of Fascism, with all Nazis being Fascists, but not all Fascists being Nazis. Nazism shares many economic features with Fascism, featuring complete government control of finance and investment (allocation of credit), industry, and agriculture. Yet in both of these systems, corporate power and market based systems for providing price information still existed. The NAZI 25 Point Plan Which includes: 13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts). 15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age. 16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders. and 25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states. Now I'm in now way defending the Nazi Party or these idiots in Dresden, but if this sounds like "the Republican Plan" to you, you haven't been paying attention at all. In fact, there are a number of planks in that 25 point plan that sounds an awful lot like current liberal dogma.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:22:08 AM EST
    I have always wondered if the laws and restrictions placed on the Nazis in Germany have a backlash effect in generating support for them. Germany is the enlightened nation that also prosecutes Scientologists as well. By the way comparisions between Neocons and Nazis show a real lack of understanding of the goals, values, methods and aims of of both

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:31:41 AM EST
    Posted by justpaul at February 14, 2005 08:09 AM Tom, So today's Republicans are aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production? Got any evidence for that? justpaul So you're saying that my statement that Republics are operating with a my way or the highway mentality means that I think that today's Republicans are aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production? Got any evidence for that? Besides the straw man you just tossed into the discussion, and the words you put in my mouth?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:35:41 AM EST
    Posted by Gerry Owen at February 14, 2005 09:22 AM [snip] By the way comparisions between Neocons and Nazis show a real lack of understanding of the goals, values, methods and aims of of both. Sort of the same way that comparisons between liberals and terrorists/followers of Islam/communists/etc. show a similar lack of understanding. Right?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#22)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:43:49 AM EST
    Tom, Actually, that's exactly right. Righties on this blog love to tether us in with Saddam Hussein and terrorists, and link us to fringe extremists like Churchill for no other reason than because they can. It is wrong and so is any attempt to directly conflate the GOP with Nazis.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:50:51 AM EST
    Ward Churchill is a fringe extremist? He was up to a short time ago department head at a major state university, tenured and earning a pretty good salary courtesy of the taxpayers of Colorado. Fringe extremists are people like Tom putting out his blog nobody reads.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#24)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:58:15 AM EST
    Deuce, My use of the term "fringe" has less to do with influence than with philosophical geography. I apply it to Churchill in the same sense I would apply it to Santorum: that is, a person whose ideas reside far and away outside what the bulk of reasonable people would hold.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:07:21 AM EST
    Stripped of rhetorical excess, Churchill says 9-11 was the result of U.S. action in the ME, payback in other words; this is no different than what Susan Sontag, Chalmers Johnson, Noam Chomsky or even Patrick Buchanan on the right says; it is widely held opinion, hardly fringe.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:13:57 AM EST
    Tom: As per your initial post on this thread: Posted by: justpaul on February 14, 2005 06:30 AM Hey Ricky, what political philosophy did the Nazi party aspire to? The same one aspired to by today's Republics. My way or the highway." I apologize if I misunderstood your post to imply that the current Republican political idealogy was that of the Nazi party, since that was the question you attempted to answer, and not, as I now realize you intended, merely "My way of the highway". I erroneously assumed that your understanding of what a political idealogy is was more advanced than simplistic one-phrase slogans. I apologize for that assumption. My mistake. I will note, however, that you have also picked up the term "strawman" in your perusings of the internet. Care to identify the strawman I have supposedly introduced into the discussion, or is this to be something else one must make an assumption about?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:23:05 AM EST
    Justpaul thanks for the link. I am still not to sure how these folks represent socialists, their ideals as described seem facist.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#28)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:42:41 AM EST
    think that nazis and repubs have nothing in common?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#29)
    by Andreas on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    GregZ wrote: "I am still not to sure how these folks represent socialists, their ideals as described seem facist." Until 1933 the German working class had two main political parties which were (officially) fighting for socialism: the Communist Party and the Social Democrats. The majority of workers agreed with the necessity to replace capitalism by socialism. Only the terrible betrayal committed by the Communist Party enabled the German fascists to smash the working class and gain power. Even after 1933 the Nazis still feared the working class and adapted some aspects of their politics to the socialist traditions of the working class - including the name. In spite of that it was a party of the capitalist class.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:49:04 AM EST
    GregZ, I would agree, but fascism and socialism are not, by nature, diametrically opposed. Fascism is, in many ways, more a method than an idealogy, so one can quite easily have a fascist political system supporting a socialist political ideal. In practice, this results in states like North Korea, the USSR under Stalin, and, to a lesser extent, Cuba. I think we could agree that Hitler borrowed pretty much the worst he could find in any idealogy that offered him what he needed. I doubt very much that he thought of himself as a socialist, but the party he led was founded on socialist beliefs combined with an unhealthy willingness to force the issue on those who disagreed. Tom: It occurs to me as well that your statement that "my way or the highway" was the political idealogy of the Nazi party and is the political idealogy of the Republican party is wrong on both counts. But thank you for the input.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    justpaul at February 14, 2005 10:49 AM ...beliefs combined with an unhealthy willingness to force the issue on those who disagreed. sounds pretty much like modern american republicanism.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:27:37 AM EST
    My my my. It seems that a nerve might have been struck here... The Nazis systematically purged anyone who espoused an idealogy that was not in complete agreement with theirs. Sort of the same way that Republics do the same - misrepresent the statements made by those who disagree with them (such as Ward Churchill, who is in no way a representative sample of liberal thinking. Also simliar to the way the my attitudes and ideas are not representative of all liberals either), threaten and cow others when they see what's in store for them, and in the end use violence on the stubborn ones who still don't toe their party line. I did condense an awful lot into a one sentence catch phrase. Sort of similar to tax and spend liberals or Ward Churchill is the spokesman for the left. Obviously simplistic and not really getting to the heart of the matter - but also obviously dangerously close to being something that Republics are concerned they might be tarred with. The straw man introduced into the argument was that I think that today's Republicans are aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production. I made no such allusions. I use the term because my understanding of the term is that a 'straw man' in this context is when someone gives their opponent ideas and beliefs they do not support so that they can deconstruct those ideas and beliefs instead of what their opponent is actually saying. For the record, I do not think that today's Republics are aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production. I think that today's Republics are aiming for a fascist system in which the elite, and the corporations they control, control all means of production, as well as all means of communication. Republics and fascists in general (and those Germans which Republics avoid being compared to at all costs) share the similar trait of viciously attacking anyone who dares to disagree with their views. Their are other similarities in their political philosophies, but that was the only comparison I was making at the time. Posted by Deuce at February 14, 2005 09:50 AM Ward Churchill is a fringe extremist? He was up to a short time ago department head at a major state university, tenured and earning a pretty good salary courtesy of the taxpayers of Colorado. Fringe extremists are people like Tom putting out his blog nobody reads. So Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Grover Norquist speak for all Republics now? And the nobodies who read my blog must include you, for you must have gone to the site and seen that it is not being read by anyone. I'm pretty sure that Jeralyn has managed to make it there once upon a time - is she another of those nobodies you are referring to? Any more Republic logic (or lack thereof) you wish to expose to the rest of Talk Left's readership?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:43:26 AM EST
    "Sort of the same way that comparisons between liberals and terrorists/followers of Islam/communists/etc. show a similar lack of understanding. Right?" For the most part, yes. Communism, Modern Liberalism, and Socialism all come from the same angle that the State knows best in many ways and share a lot of other ideological traits, but as for terrorists and Islamicists, there is really no similarities outside of a mutual lack of understanding about each other.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:43:56 AM EST
    Last post was me....

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:50:29 AM EST
    Tom, You seem to have some trouble either with the idea of what a "straw man argument" is or what a question is. I asked Ricky what the political philosophy of the Nazi party was, you replied that it was the same as that of the Republican party. I then asked, albeit in the way of a rhetorical statement, whether you believed that the political philosophy of the Republican party was "aiming for a socialist system in which the state controls all means of production", which was an admittedly simplistic statement of the Nazi party 25 point plan. This is what is known as a question, and it was intended to elicit an answer as to what your understanding of the Republican party's philosphy is, not as a statement of your beliefs. I'm sorry if that escaped you. As for strawmen, you seem to be building one of your own (by your definition, as misguided as it may be) in your attempt to now put words in my mouth so as to provide yourself with an excuse for pontificating.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:51:59 AM EST
    Tom: sorry if I touched a nerve regarding the lack of traffic at your blog. The rest of your post directed at me I do not understand. I disputed that Churchill is a fringe extremist because his basic ideas if not his imflammatory rhetoric are common the left, and he holds a responsible position in academia. Limbaugh, Norquist and Coulter do not speak for all Republicans, nor are they official spokespersons for the party, nor do any of them have the academic sinecure Churchill enjoys; they also are not "fringe" since they speak to a wide audience, even if it is an audience you abhor.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:56:40 AM EST
    I have yet to hear of one person on the left who agrees with what Churchill said. They are defending his right to say it. Big difference.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:58:04 AM EST
    Yes, you can see how superior the Democrat party is in its inclusiveness by how they jettisoned every DNC candidate who wasn't pro-abortion. And you can see how Fascist and Socialistic the Republicans are by their support for the second amendment because we all know that an armed population is quiesent. And the beat goes on.... -C

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:58:24 AM EST
    At least for now I wouldn't worry much about the German neonazis. Politically they are extremely marginalized and have no real power. After all, Gestapo was not involved when prisoners were tortured in Iraq, and SS is not responsible for killing 100,000 Iraqis.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:59:37 AM EST
    "scalp hunting", "pontificating" large doses of both, from both.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:00:56 AM EST
    Tom, My aplogies once again. I just realized that I had in fact been inverting the meaning of your little quip. You actually said that the Nazi party prescribed to the same political philosophy the Republicans now follow. Doesn't really change anything, or make you correct, but at least I know understand where the confusion was.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:07:40 AM EST
    CA - Actually the raids were a JOINT operation by British and US airforces. As to their value, that has been debated, and like most analysis, is after the fact and debatable. Did civilians die? Yes. Is war bad? Yes. Do I feel badly about it? No. Without our involvement in WWII, Germany and Japan would have instituted a cruel and unjust dictatorship that would have killed millions more. Now we are challenged by a new group of killers, Again we are called to stand for freedom. And as you extend them your hand in peace, note that when you draw your arm back the hand has been cut off.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:30:05 AM EST
    And as you extend them your hand in peace, note that when you draw your arm back the hand has been cut off. (coughcoughMaxClelandcoughcough) You actually said that the Nazi party prescribed to the same political philosophy the Republicans now follow. No, I actually said Republics and fascists in general (and those Germans which Republics avoid being compared to at all costs) share the similar trait of viciously attacking anyone who dares to disagree with their views. Their are other similarities in their political philosophies, but that was the only comparison I was making at the time. Some people might see some similarities between the Nazi purges of dissenting opinion and the Republic witch hunts of those who dare to question their viewpoints. I am one of those people that notice a certain similarity in the way they deal with those who disagree with them. Nothing else. Which is why I state that you are putting words in my mouth.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:31:07 AM EST
    ...Now we are challenged by a new group of killers, Again we are called to stand for freedom. anything america wishes to export should be in over abundance in america. i have come to the understanding that many americans do not see the depletion of your freedoms. i weep for them.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:59:32 AM EST
    2/14 12:30PM was from me. My apologies - the name and URL doesn't seem to want to stay in memory on my PC...

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    No one need put words in your mouth, Tom. You make an ass of yourself without assistance. The similarity between Nazi purges and "Republican witchhunts" is no doubt why Michael Moore's movie made over $100,000,000; why Churchill remains free and tenured and gets a standing O at speeches; why people like Kos and Atrios can continue blogging; why people can freely deride Bushco on CNN or in front of National Press Club audiences or the pages of the New Yorker.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:22:24 PM EST
    Posted by Deuce at February 14, 2005 11:51 AM Tom: sorry if I touched a nerve regarding the lack of traffic at your blog. The rest of your post directed at me I do not understand. I disputed that Churchill is a fringe extremist because his basic ideas if not his imflammatory rhetoric are common the left, and he holds a responsible position in academia. Limbaugh, Norquist and Coulter do not speak for all Republicans, nor are they official spokespersons for the party, nor do any of them have the academic sinecure Churchill enjoys; they also are not "fringe" since they speak to a wide audience, even if it is an audience you abhor. And I dispute your allegation that churchill's basic ideas if not his imflammatory rhetoric are common the left. I don't see that at a majority of the sites I look at with a 'leftist' viewpoint. And I must have lost the memo that declared Ward Churchill the 'official' spokeperson for the left. Your comments seem to indicate that you consider him to be a prime example of the typical liberal. Limbaugh, Coulter, Norquist etal, however, do hold very important positions within the conservative hierarchy, whether they are official or not. Didn't Limbaugh put Dick Cheney on his radio show quite a bit in the runups to the recent elections? Doesn't Limbaugh get broadcast on Armed Forces Radio every day? Doesn't Coulter get quite a few chances to speak her mind on national TV and radio? Doesn't Norquist hold a weekly Wednesday meeting with the movers and shakers in conservative circles? Plus, I do see their views endorsed by a large number of 'rightist' sites, including Instapundit, Powerline, Free Republic, and Little Green Footballs. These individuals have the commercial sinecure of being able to use inflammatory rhetoric and not lose their on-air (or power behind the throne) positions. As for my blog, quite frankly I'm glad it doesn't get a lot of looks from people like you. Enough people have told me they have seen what I have to say, and they like the way I say it, to satisfy me. How's your blog traffic these days?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:30:42 PM EST
    Posted by Deuce at February 14, 2005 01:14 PM No one need put words in your mouth, Tom. You make an ass of yourself without assistance. The similarity between Nazi purges and "Republican witchhunts" is no doubt why Michael Moore's movie made over $100,000,000; why Churchill remains free and tenured and gets a standing O at speeches; why people like Kos and Atrios can continue blogging; why people can freely deride Bushco on CNN or in front of National Press Club audiences or the pages of the New Yorker. Right back atcha, Dunce. No, The similarity between Nazi purges and "Republican witchhunts" is no doubt why Eason Jordan resigned from CNN; why Dan Rather was forced to resign after telling the truth; why the Swift Boat Liars got to slime John Kerry; why BabyDoc can lie his a$$ off about Social Security without getting called on it; why Condi Rice can lie about being warned about 9-11 and get away with it; why Howard Dean's mike feed got isolated and turned into the "Dean Scream"; why people can get arrested at a public meeting for wearing t-shirts critical of the current junta; and why Ann Coulter can say that journalists should be executed by the armed forces on live TV wihtout retribution. Among many other things.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:38:24 PM EST
    You can have the last word, kid. Kind of touchy about the blog, aren't you? Well, have fun. Good luck holding down the job.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:43:25 PM EST
    Gerry Owen, if you wan to know why Scientology has problems in Germany, the just head over to Operation Clambake and get informed on how many lives this cult has already ruined.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:51:53 PM EST
    Otmar- I freely admit to not knowing the ins, outs, ups, and downs of Scientology. I just think people should be entitled to make their own decisions. Should Germany go ahead and ban Islam for all the destruction of peoples lives it has caused? Cults and their hold over people are best dealt with by society and the free flow of information.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:11:17 PM EST
    Tom- Eason Jordan made false and ridiculous statements that he knew not to be true. He got called on it, first by Barney Frank (who I would venture to say would not appreciate being labelled as part of a "Republican Witchhunt".) Dan Rather's mistake was refusing to believe that obvious forgeries were anything but obvious forgeries. "Fake but Accurate" is not the standard purveyors of fact should dwell in. The "Swift Boat Liars" as you call them raised a lot of questions that still not have been answered- and even if you subscribe to the old "truth is somewhere in between" maxim it still raised serious questions as to Kerry's record and credibility. Kerry STILL hasn't signed the form 180, so a lot of these questions are left hanging out there. It would have been fairly simple for Kerry to emerge from that if he had all the facts and documentation on his side. He didn't. That's politics. Frankly, I think the whole Swiftees' deal and the "Bush was a draft dodger" were both about as pointless and worthless to whole debate altogether. I fail to see any witchhunt, merely crying over spilt milk.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:17:32 PM EST
    Posted by at February 14, 2005 02:11 PM I fail to see any witchhunt, merely crying over spilt milk. the trees are blocking your view.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#54)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:23:38 PM EST
    It is interesting, reading the above comments, that the republican view is basically "the left does it too". Not quite a denial guys! Bush rules through fear, fixes elections (I was a watcher, dont tell me that the last one was honest!), demonizes people who "look different", waves the flag (methinks a bit too much) and relys on a legal system that incarcerates without charge. These are facts, spin all you want, you are heading towards armed rebellion, by people who really dont want to rebel at all

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:04:44 PM EST
    Armed rebellion? Sure. Go on and go for it, Roger, girlie man. You lefties do nothing but strut and talk but none of you got the cojones to do more than strut and talk.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#56)
    by Johnny on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    Hey Warren, that why you are posting from a foxhole in Iraq?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:26:06 PM EST
    These are facts, spin all you want, you are heading towards armed rebellion, by people who really dont want to rebel at all Yes, I can see it now. The Rainbow Coalition, taking up arms, marching into the Red States to teach those God-loving gun-toting hicks who the real men are. Roger, lay off the pipe

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#58)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:36:17 PM EST
    Tom, Keep it up! Thanks to Deuce, I'm headed to your site right now.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:40:57 PM EST
    Posted by Roger at February 14, 2005 02:23 PM ...heading towards armed rebellion, by people who really dont want to rebel at all He who they shall not speak of at February 14, 2005 03:26 PM Yes, I can see it now. The Rainbow Coalition, taking up arms, marching into the Red States to teach those God-loving gun-toting hicks who the real men are ?if you corner an animal "HE", he will do what...? ?you can only kick your dog for so long "HE", then he will do what...? ?are you a card carrying member of the K, no use new name, National Alliance.?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:24:46 PM EST
    sadly bush and the left and right will use the neo nut's to take rights away from us all. U.S.ARMY 1917/1918 A WIN, WW 1,...1941/1945 U.S.ARMY A WIN, Only a fool would back a nut case like hitler, and a evil nut case at that, who would have killed all of the so called marchers, sad, sad, sad cases.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    Johnny - Iraq : been there. Tikrit. You heard of it prob=ly. Yo, Tommy! YOu got yourself an admirer. On Valentine's Day, too. Sweet. Maybe you boys can get together and you can post somethning in Che's Culo.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:51:49 PM EST
    Shazam! Warren, shouldn't you be back on the set of Deliverence 2?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:54:57 PM EST
    The info comes from the"world socialist site" so take it for what it is.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimcee on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    Ah, Ward Churchill, the gift that keeps on giving. A Nazi is bad, a Communist is bad. Both are really, really bad. I'll take our chaotic, raucous and greedy republic before I'll let some "Central Planner" turn the world a certain kind of grey and me into Winston Smith. Oh the Churchill thing....He's demanding that Hamilton College pay him for the speech that he never gave. Now there is a fascist who loves his money, eh? Ward Churchill, the gift that keeps on giving.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:36:55 PM EST
    Dearest No Name at 12:30PM The refernce was to radical moslems, or more accurately, "mufsidoons," criminals. I'm not all that worried about the nazis. We're smart enough to not ley that happen again. But islamficacists, well, Europe looks ripe for the picking.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#66)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:01:11 PM EST
    Warren, He, Did I say That I was going to revolt? Practice your reading comprehension, remember, reading is fundamental!

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#67)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:15:04 PM EST
    BTW- re: "girlie man" and "lay off the pipe" army airborne veteran, 118 jumps. Registered Republican Drive expensive car If the downtrodden revolt, I'm as much a target as you, maybe more

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#69)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:36:32 PM EST
    Warren, I'd refer you to Jim's comments on the thread below. Witty comeback. English Lit major?, or auto shop?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:21:29 PM EST
    insult deleted. Ed. This commenter is limited to four comments a day on TalkLeft, regardless of which name he posts under.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:47:18 PM EST
    But islamficacists, well, Europe looks ripe for the picking. Heh. Another Fox News watcher who knows *exactly* what's going on in Europe.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:56:17 AM EST
    I fail to see any witchhunt, merely crying over spilt milk. Possibly you should check your eyesight. It completely missed the part of the comment referring to the Usurper in Thief's lack of honesty. And Condi's inability to see 52 separate warnings about Al Qaeda operatives using planes to fly into buildings before 9-11 (or her ability to not tell the truth about what she saw). Maybe that selective eyesight problem is controlled by the same gene that makes Republics have selective hearing and non-reality-based logic... Ann Coulter made the same statements Eason JOrdan did, Except she did it on live TV, not in a closed meeting. And she didn't immediately try to clarify her remarks, like Jordan did because he knew that they would be misinterpreted by the right. As they were. Why aren't the 101st fighting keyboarders demanding that Ann Coulter be hounded out of the media, as they did for Jordan? Another standard Republic tactic is demonstrated with the Swift Boat Liars comment as well - make up some crap and then say that the truth lies somewhere bewteen our utter fabrication and the facts. The answers have been given; the right chooses not to accept them. We haven't gotten any answers about Putsch's skipping out of his TANG service - because he refuses to answer any questions about it. Maybe somebody on the right could consider raising some questions about that, hmmm? Posted by Warren Fenner at February 14, 2005 04:35 PM [snip] Yo, Tommy! YOu got yourself an admirer. On Valentine's Day, too. Sweet. Maybe you boys can get together and you can post somethning in Che's Culo. Jealousy will get you nowhere. I appreciate your envy, however. Might I suggest you talk to JD Guckert? I hear he specializes in helping you military types. Besides, I like girls... and Che sounds a little too butch to be a member of the farier sex. Any more Republic misinformation you would like to share with Talk Left's audience?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:14:39 AM EST
    (:Tom:) - TANG and Bush was investigated for five years by a press corp that would have given their front seat in hell and sat on a box of matches to prove he did something bad. They failed. One, a certain Dan Rather, was so obsessed that he threw caution to the wind, used fake information and almost destroyed CBS. He certainly destroyed two people's careers, and ended his on a low note. In the meantime, Kerry continutes to NOT SIGN his form 180, despite promising to do so to Tim Russert on his national news show, and Imus on his radio show. Let's bury the dead on this. They haven't touched Bush and Kerry lies. Reality strokes again.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:11:47 AM EST
    Sorry, PPJ - that dog won't hunt. Bush stonewalled reporters for years on his TANG service. And got some good ole boys to shred documents for him (illegally) while he was Gub'Ner of Tax-Ass. And got some others to lie about his service (or lack thereof) in Alabama. And got away with deciding on his own to transfer over to Alabama without approval by his superiors. Dan Rather used copies of memos he was told were accurate representations of what went on, and used Republic fact-esque checking to verify them. And then got crucified by the conservative media, even though they said he was right in his conclusions. Bush lies and Kerry was subject to a witch hunt by the mainstream conservative media. Maybe if you weren't spitting on one of those corpses while you're burying the dead, I might agree to let it rest. But I refuse to let non-reality-based conservative spin masquerade for the truth any more. Stroke that reality (or is it stoke?) some more - it won't make a difference in this neck of the woods. All your, um, false statements above are just some more Republic misinformation for the masses. Standard fare from the right these days...

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:23:27 AM EST
    Bush stonewalled reporters for years on his TANG service. Bush signed a form 180, something Kerry has repeatedly promised and yet not done. And got some good ole boys to shred documents for him (illegally) while he was Gub'Ner of Tax-Ass. No proof, no corroboration, just a malcontent Bush hater. And got some others to lie about his service (or lack thereof) in Alabama. Again, no proof- what Bush did in AL was far from noteworthy, as his plane was being decomm'd. Not unusual, particularly to anyone who has experience with the Guard or Reserves. And got away with deciding on his own to transfer over to Alabama without approval by his superiors. You can move in the Guard and Reserves- by their very nature those type of units are expected to make adjustments for your change of venue, either by requiring you report to another unit, granting a leave of absence, or transferring you to a new unit altogether. They used to (and still may) run on a point system with points earned by showing up, flying, testing for advancement, etc. It was entirely possible to earn all the points you needed for a year in a matter of a couple of months. Bush did this on several occasions while his plane was still active (obviously, this became more difficult once it was decomm'd). Again, none of this really mattered anyway- Bush had a record as a War President to run on, which was a more meaningful indicator and job qualifier than anything he did or didn't do 30 years ago. Kerry, who never signed the 180, faced a lot of different questions. Where Bush had a couple of people from his past trying to tear him down Kerry had everyone he ever associated during his short tour raising a stink- except for a few guys who had served under him and were travelling the country free of charge with him (not to mention all recieved citations signed by him). Many of the Swifties charges are still unanswered- particularly the Christmas in Cambodia story, and the related "Magic Hat". Again, I failed to see what real relevance what Kerry did/didn't do in Vietnam had anything to do with being President, but Kerry did make that a salient point of his campaign-possibly in an attempt to quell the "weak" & "woosie" label democrats are automatically saddled with these days (admittedly not always fairly). He opened the door and was not prepared to back it up. Both stories were really rather lame. Neither really had much relevance in the whole scheme of things. Out of mostly curiosity, I did look at both men's records, being a former military man myself- the only thing that stood out to me was Kerry's extremely abbreviated tour. I personally found that unbecoming of an officer, although I do not expect many to understand enough to see why. As an officer, you do not leave your command in a war zone until you are told to or carried out. That is a responsibility you owe to those who are under your command. Kerry had to request his transfer out based on the three purple hearts (which I think he earned- whether or not he should have applied for all of them is another personal judgement call)- I would have loved to have seen that letter. Again, I viewed it as politics- both Kerry's trumpeting of his record and the Swiftees' rebuttal. Bush didn't run as a Guard Fighter Jock, in either Presidential election (I cannot speak for his Governor races, I didn't pay that much attention since I'm not a Texan). The only reason the Guard questions were raised was as an attempt to weaken Him on National Security and on the question of trust. He went as far as to sign the 180 and open the records, which his opponent didn't do. Both were pointless stories indicitve of how much of our political process is mired down in worthless arguements over things that do not matter much to anyone or anything, merely playing to emotion.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:33:17 PM EST
    Nice fascism flick, Roger. Who did it, Leni Riefenstahl?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:54:08 PM EST
    cute little quote doc, where'd you steal it, Ann Coulter?

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:54:45 PM EST
    Glad you like it, Ricky. As a matter of fact, I made it up. I noticed when it came to defending your Reps and nazis remark, you stopped at nothing. Too busy throwing accusing other people of stealing? I suppose evidence isn't your strong suit...

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:35:29 PM EST
    You can move in the Guard and Reserves- by their very nature those type of units are expected to make adjustments for your change of venue, either by requiring you report to another unit, granting a leave of absence, or transferring you to a new unit altogether. But, Gerry, can you do it on your own, without even bothering to ask your superiors? Can you decline to take a required medical just because you don't feel like it? And were there any others who were derelict in their duty like Putsch was and got away with it? I read that others who tried the same crap got their butts shipped over to 'Nam. How come that didn't happen to Dumb?Yeah! when he (for all intensive purposes) deserted his (cushy) post during wartime? Funny how this sort of thing doesn't seem to matter when it's a Republic that is in the wrong.

    Re: 5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:35:27 PM EST
    Most of you are seriously uninformed about national socialism of the 30s and 40s, or even the New European Nationalist groups. You watch mainstream media, listen to the party line and filter it in, and listen to what they promote as an ideology and what is acceptable in society. And even with more indie sources like the guardian or others its still extremely biased. News is no longer about truly independent and unbiased reporting, its all disseminating and deciphering information, or pulling it apart and slandering the orientation they disagree with. IT TRULY SHOWS WHO CONTROLS THE MASS MEDIA (FOR THE MOST PART) AND WHAT THEY WISH TO PROMOTE. These media sources, basically equalitarian reports for the lemming consumers of the world where they disseminate information and do nothing but throw slanders back and forth against their enemies, and label organizations and groups that do not pertain to their own ideology, is near identical as in politics. Hence the slander terms of "nazi" or "hater" or "right-wing" haha when the the old NSDAP of the 30s and Hitler himself could of been considered more left even to this day. I feel that people wanting a third alternative to multiculturalism/capitalism/mass democracy should not be persecuted in such a Judeo-Bolshevik manner. And as for this absurd and asinine accusation of neocons/repubs/etc being similar to national socialists of old ("nazi") is totally laughable. Neocons are first off die-hard zionists, who promote a form of globalism and capitalism that engulfs the entire world into strife and consumer plantations, where corporations and elitists run wild for that beautiful paper stuff we call money. They also promote open borders and massive third world immigration, which can be seen from america's changing demographics. The concept of the factory farm, bringing massive influxes of immigration in for cheap labor for capitalist exploiters, and destroying our land and environment for corporate greed is another great neocon policy being implemented. When in fact Adolf Hitler and old Nazis were completely opposed to this. Some of the first animal rights and environmental laws were passed in this "evil satanic regime" and you can look it up for yourself. Not only that but the concept of total self-sufficiency was at the forefront of promotion, they took it so far that they broke away from international finance and bartered with nations instead of relying on that paper stuff and speculation in the stock market. Old nazis were also very nationalistic and practiced a third economic form that was opposed to both state socialism and international finance capitalism, returning the currency to a medium of exchange - something you would never see a judeo-christian neocon ever dream of, cause the fatass would lose his monetary prestige very quickly. They nationalized banks and had government regulation of finance, but instead neocons believe in privatizing everything on earth, and letting extremely harmful private groups who happen to be minorities run these financial institutions. Old nazis also fought for racial and cultural preservation, and made sure the classes were united and the elitists did not maintain control as was the case with marxism and capitalist democracies, where plutocrats are king. You would never see Dubya and his henchmen even attempt to fight for White rights or solidarity, or promote a nation of homogeniety for people of European descent. His values and principles are totally opposite to the white majority of the U.S., and his staunch support of israel, useless wars, corporate greed, and complete open borders policy to change the demographics of this nation MORE THAN PROVE IM RIGHT. Hitler was also a serious anti-semite haha, and wouldnt of put up with jewish infiltration of mass media/economic institutions/government for a second. You think Hitler would of had Jews like michael chertoff, ari fleischer, paul wolfowitz, richard pearle, daniel feith, etc and the like advising and helping him run his administration? HAHAHA, he would of hanged those traitors not because they were Jews but because they are a serious threat to America. But yet this "nazi" GWB tolerates these kinds of people? I could go on and on with the contrasting but I think it suffices enough. You need to open your eyes and really understand the essentials of both sides, think for yourself, and NOT listen to what these plutocrats (who herd the mainstream lemmings and promote agendas in the media detrimental to the people) TELL you about a "neo-nazi hate group." The majority of the mass media and entertainment groups in the western world are run by high finance and very shady minorities who have infiltrated our societies, and who promote lies and treasonous beliefs to a constituted majority that was forced to accept them. These patriotic organizations are fighting for their way of life, as any proud and and conscious people have the right to do so in this world. Tomorrow belongs to us.

    5,000 Neo-Nazis March in Dresden | 79 comments (79 topical)