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Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics Out of the Debate'

By TChris, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:04:54 PM EST
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by TChris

Like many others, Montel Williams is a criminal, but only because his government has presented him with a stark and unfair choice: continue to suffer as a result of his illness, or risk arrest by taking the only effective medicine -- a medicine that our laws make illegal. His story, presented in a letter to the Chicago Tribune, is compelling.

In "Climbing Higher," my book on living with MS, I write in detail about how I became suicidal and twice attempted to end my life. I was in severe mental and physical pain, getting little sleep and feeling completely spent. Someone suggested that I try smoking a little marijuana before going to bed, saying it might help me fall asleep. Skeptical but desperate, I tried it. It was like a miracle. Three puffs and within minutes the excruciating pain in my legs subsided.

Should Montel Williams, and the thousands like him, be branded a criminal simply because he wants to live a life that allows him to manage his pain?

It is time to take politics out of the debate. It is time for government-sanctioned research into the medicinal effects of marijuana and time to heed the research already available. It is time to change marijuana's classification so that physicians can prescribe it.

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    Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics Out of the Debate' | 41 comments (41 topical)
    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:59:06 PM EST
    I agree. We already have too much intrusion in our lives. Pot has proven effective and affordable for treating some illnesses.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:08:36 PM EST
    For the life of me, I can't understand why pot is illegal in general. Denying the sick their medicine, that's just cruel.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:13:04 PM EST
    Amazingly, Bush is pro-Life and thinks that humanity begins at conception but is willing to use federal funds to perform stem cell research. Yet with no biblical or other real reason to deny access to marijuana he will not fund research into its ability to help the very ill. If they did the research, maybe they would be able to develop a pill or liquid that could perform the same and the ill would not need to grow the plant. Just a thought.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:34:20 PM EST
    To deny to the suffering any alleviation of pain is unconscionable.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:38:40 PM EST
    I don't understand why this substance is illegal either. Well, let me re-phrase that, I can't think of any reasonable reason why it should be illegal. For me, anyone who wants to outlaw marijuana for any purpose needs to explain, reasonably, why marijuana is illegal but cigarettes and booze are not. I wish Montel the best. I can't say I am a big fan of his show, but damn. This sucks. I didn't know he suffered from this disease.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:42:52 PM EST
    Sadly, marijuana is illegal, so those who wish it to be so need do nothing. For it to become legal again, someone, probably several someones, must stand up on the floor of the House and ask why it is illegal and whether it should be. This won't happen until a Congressperson either doesn't care about getting re-elected or feels secure enough that they feel they can say these things without fearing retribution from the voters. I don't think anyone in Congress right now has that kind of inner strength.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:48:37 PM EST
    I know it's already been posted, but I just cannot understand why pot is illegal. I smoke on the weekends, and occasionally during the week, but I am also a successful and productive technology professional. I just don't feel like a criminal. It perplexes me whenever I think about it.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#8)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:52:31 PM EST
    I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but the FDA is about to review all OTC nsaids for potential regulation.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#9)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:55:50 PM EST
    “I smoke on the weekends, and occasionally during the week, but I am also a successful and productive technology professional.” It shouldn’t matter if I am a hobo; it’s my body isn’t it? (no disrespect meant to hobos)

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:00:44 PM EST
    The problem with Montel's argument is that it is directed at the medicinal purposes. Then doctors will debate it. Insurance companies will get involved. Most people for this are really for the recreational use and not medicinal. This is an issue about personal freedom for a drug that is less harmful than alcohol. Argue the issue on freedom and you'll win. Argue it on science and you will lose.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:15:52 PM EST
    "Bush is pro-Life and thinks that humanity begins at conception" ... and ends at birth. After that it's I've got mine, Jack, and you're on your own.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:18:29 PM EST
    maybe they would be able to develop a pill or liquid that could perform the same and the ill would not need to grow the plant. They already have, its called Marinol. The problem is, toking up has a whole culture associated with it. I mean, c'mon, what fun is faking glaucoma, "phantom pain", or MS (or any other difficult-to-verify illness) if you can't roll doobies or trade bong-hits with your roommate? Facetiousness aside, many people suffer legitimate illness, but legalizing a highly psychotropic substance is a bad idea. Recent studies (not the old "reefer madness" films) have proven that smoking pot during childhood increases people's risk of developing a psychotic disorder later in life. Not everyone will (Kdog seems relatively normal), but an increased number will. Its like Russian roulette. Play at your own risk. No need to hand young-and-invincable teenagers the gun.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:27:10 PM EST
    i really fu@@king like the righties/reps telling us lefties what we need to do to get the party back, maintain participation, pass legislation, etc.,. you fu@@king guys/gals are funnier schit. when your house is built on sand, absent of a solid foundation, moral values ain't gonna cut it in the next election (06'), its gonna be about meat and potatoes, not spreading democracy. cycles that’s what the political process runs in, and yours is about up. as far as legalizing pot, easy, show the pharmaceutical companies and local municipalities how they can make 15% ROI on there investments in legalized pot, and there in. our current free market system takes over from there.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#14)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:27:30 PM EST
    “Recent studies (not the old "reefer madness" films) have proven that smoking pot during childhood increases people's risk of developing a psychotic disorder later in life.” You are under the impression that is causes psychosis; this hasn’t been shown.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:13:13 PM EST
    “Recent studies (not the old "reefer madness" films) have proven that smoking pot during childhood increases people's risk of developing a psychotic disorder later in life.” Could you please link to this study? Or perhaps this isn't the right forum, I am not sure. My apologies if it isn't. Anyway, even if this claim of your was true, cigarettes most absolutely and definitely KILL people and they are legal (personal choice, tobacco lobby, etc.). Booze most absolutely and definitely KILL people and it is legal (personal choice, booze lobby, etc. We aren't talking about correlational studies here with weak effects and little or no causal link. Cigarettes and booze are direct and extremely well documented causes of death, and they are legal.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:14:02 PM EST
    He who shall.......whatever, Marinol's effectiveness is so variable that it is seldom used. As to the childhood use references, who in the world would allow anyone under 18 to smoke pot unless it was absolutely prescribed and administered to a minor via their parent? Your comment was irrelevant.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#17)
    by TomK on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 04:37:43 PM EST
    I think the issue of pots relationship with society and insanity is a complicated one. Here is why. Assuming there are studies about this that establish not only pot use and mental illness are correlated, but also that there are studies that show this link is causal (A twin survey where identical twins risk of mental illness and pot use were studied but other variables were the same). Mental illnesses are often used as a way for governments to control people with unusual ideas. Falun Gong in China, Homosexuals and communists in the 1950s, etc. Pot is likely to make you care less about what society thinks and more about what you really feel. This means that people who smoke pot have unusual ideas the government does not like. (See 1960-1975 in history). Since definitions of mental illness are made in part to keep dangerous ideas outside the mainstream, these people are more often diagnosed with mental illness. Ergo, marijuana's association with mental illness is explainable in marijuana encourages deviance from societal norms and the definitions of mental illnes are a way to discourage that deviance. If you want to talk about links between mental illness and drugs, look at the link between smoking tobacco and schizophrenia or alcohol use and any number of disorders.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 04:59:21 PM EST
    I really enjoy some of the arguments that the gov. makes against pot. First there is the circular logic argument. We control all the legal pot. There are no studies that proves that pot is effective in treating any illness only antidotal evidence. Anyone who researches these issues has to use our pot or they go to jail. We won't give them the pot to use in any studies because it is illegal, therefor pot has to stay illegal because the only evidence that it helps the ill is antidotal. The second is the gateway drug thing. It is a gateway drug because people who use other illegal drugs use pot therefor it must stay illegal because it will prevent other drug use. Everyone I know who has ever used any illegal drug didn't start w/ pot they started w/ a far more dangerous drug alcohol. Why is it that alcohol isn't the gateway drug?

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#19)
    by nolo on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:06:27 PM EST
    At the same time he's demonizing marijuana, "he who" probably also thinks it's ok for the pharmaceutical industry to spend lots of money touting Celebrex, Vioxx and other pricy painkillers that have a proven tendency to increase a patient's risk of heart attack and stroke.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:07:05 PM EST
    car exhaust will kill you in minutes under the right circumstances. and all of us suck it up every day. for all the hysteria about pot -- c'mon, no sh*t abusing ANY drug will harm you to some degree or another, especially when you're young and still brain-developing -- we will NEVER know how much illness and early death have been caused by simply breathing fossil feul emissions. we may not have pittsburgh blackout days as they did in the lated nineteen and early twentieth century, but for the year 2005 and all of our "progress" we still focus our attention on some perfectly trivial things far too much when it comes to public health. why not just say to those who wanna toke, "tough luck, too bad booze doesn't work. loser." keep it up, montel. the merry wanna dance.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:09:42 PM EST
    To the misinformed he who knows nothing... I am aware of the study you speak of. Forget the fact that the study only shows a direct link between pot and mental disorders for those ALREADY PREDISPOSED TO MENTAL ILLNESS and focus on the rest of the population...and you have what Francis Young (the DEA adminstrative law judge who heard the re-scheduling petition for pot in 1988)found out: "Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known . . . It would be unreasonable, arbitrary and capricious for the DEA to continue to stand between those sufferers and the benefits of this substance." The politics of Pot is just that...politics. Private research into the medicinal value of marijuana has been consistently blocked by the DEA for years. Recent example, University of Massachusets at Amherst. Meanwhile, legitimate studies of the herb by other countries have consistently shown its potential for some people with certain disorders. Your comment is pathetic rhetoric repeated, albeit not as foolishly as the reefer madness scare, by the federal government. The ultimate irony, the same federal agency that says they won't accept marijuana's medical value because there is no scientific basis to it - is the same group that denies access to the same said substance for studies. Hmmm Could it be that 755,000 marijuana arrests a yr keep a bloated police state with jobs and a never ending supply of criminal fines? Wake up man. Pot smokers aren't hurting this country. People like you are. And riddle me this brain-drain...if indeed marijuana has no medical value then how do you suppose over 100,000 people in the 11 states that allow medical marijuana on doctors recommendations get the scripts? Are all the doctors that prescribe this quacks or what?? Furthermore, I suppose it would be impolite to mention that the federal government STILL supplies patients with medical marijuana...look up Irven Rosenfeld. He is a stock broker in Florida who gets a few hundred joints a month from uncle sam. - - loser - - www.norml.org

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:11:04 PM EST
    MedScape has a decent summary of the study, you can find it here. Sorry, registration required. Here is a relevant excerpt. "Cannabis use moderately increases the risk of psychotic symptoms in young people but has a much stronger effect in those with evidence of predisposition for psychosis," the authors write. "Repeated exposure to cannabis may cause initial increases in synaptic dopamine and then lead to more prolonged changes in the endogenous cannabinoid systems. These changes might be most profound after exposure to cannabis during adolescence and in individuals with a pre-existing vulnerability to dysregulation of the cannabinoid system and related neurotransmission systems." I had a crazy pot induced panic attack once; thought I was having a heart attack. Anyway, I don’t care how destructive a given substance is. My position stands; it is an unacceptable infringement of my liberty to regulate what I consume. Remember; it’s not a war on drugs, it’s a war on personal freedom.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#23)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:17:39 PM EST
    chi_high “the study only shows a direct link between pot and mental disorders for those ALREADY PREDISPOSED TO MENTAL ILLNESS” This is wrong; I quote the study “Cannabis use moderately increases the risk of psychotic symptoms in young people but has a much stronger effect in those with evidence of predisposition for psychosis”. If you are just mistaken, you stand corrected. If you are intentionally misrepresenting the results, you are no better than the folks at the DEA running the disinformation campaign. However, I think they (the above quoted author) go a bit far claiming causation, rather than correlation.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:28:24 PM EST
    Thanks Pig for digging up that article. You've identified the exact study I was referencing, and the salient feature of the article. That about covers it. So how about it everyone? Cannabis use moderately increases the risk of psychotic symptoms in young people ... These changes might be most profound after exposure to cannabis during adolescence... Are you willing to let your kids smoke dope despite this fact? I'm not - and I don't want one of your kids passing mine a joint legally. As to some of the more interesting comments... "Cigarettes kill people, Alchohol kills people". Sure they do. Isn't that enough already? Do we really need to legalize another harmful substance? Whats next? Crack? look at the link between smoking tobacco and schizophrenia The theory is that nicotine inhibits a type of dopamine, whose excess in the brain causes Schizophrenia. So the belief is that some smokers are self-medicating a pre-existing mental condition (makes them less wacky), not that tobacco causes mental disorders. Why is it that alcohol isn't the gateway drug? Because its socially acceptable and has been ratified by society. Smoking pot is criminal, and once the user is comfortable breaking the law... well, you know the rest. it's ok for the pharmaceutical industry to spend lots of money touting Celebrex, Vioxx I have a feeling the industry will rue the day they ever created those medicines once the class actions are filed. keep it up, montel. the merry wanna dance. I think that just about sums up the "Legalize It" crowd.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:14:33 PM EST
    “and I don't want one of your kids passing mine a joint legally.” So, now here is your chance to parent. Parenting not being infringing on the liberty of otherwise law-abiding folks through the full force and violence of the federal government. I understand you may want your kid to wear a helmet when he/she rides their bike. Understandable, in 2002 288,900 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for bicycle-related injuries; simply wearing a helmet can reduce the risk of head injury by as much as 85 percent. Now, do you really want to make it illegal for me to ride helmetless in case your kid wants to emulate me?

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:35:56 PM EST
    Thats an interesting question. If you want to ride helmetless, go ahead, its fine by me. Of course, riding helmetless has never been linked to mental disorder, impairment, or future drug abuse. Not to mention laziness, apathy, and probably depression (these last 3 should be self-evident, if you've known any stoners - no offense Kdog). Here's one for you: Would it be ok for my 10 year old to hand yours a beer? Maybe some Whiskey instead? Why should age have anything to do with it?

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#28)
    by Johnny on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:24:33 PM EST
    How "moderate" is the increase in symptoms? 1% 2% 50%? How tightly was this experiment controlled? What are the odds that children raised in a dirty environment like any metropolitan area bigger than 100000 people will have much higher rates of asthma, lung cancer and other fossil fuel related illnesses? Cigarettes kill, alcohol kills-they are both forbidden to minors, why wouldn't pot be forbidden as well? yadda yadda booze has been a part of our culture forever yadda yadda It cmes down to education and parenting-not legislation of morality. More people die from taking aspirin than pot.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:16:38 PM EST
    I wouldn't hand your kid a baby aspirin, or a cup of mint tea for that matter. What do children have to do with the subject of medical marijuana?

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:00:25 AM EST
    An old republican concept: that government governs best which governs least. That's the real meaning of small government, but we have two large government political parties: one committed to a police state and the other committed to a social service state (well, used to be until Clinton hijacked the party and took it to Republican lite territory). Reminds me of the chicken run movie: are these our only choices? It is bad public policy to have criminalized drug use as we have. There are a lot of more sensible approaches that we could have taken to the issue. Criminalization suits the police state afficionados. Libertarian types are in short supply.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:26:34 AM EST
    No Name: You're really not very bright, are you? Who here proposed letting kids have access to pot, or beer? We're talking about adults and marijuana. Keep up with the adults in the conversation, or go play somewhere else, junior.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:57:50 AM EST
    Here's one for you: Would it be ok for my 10 year old to hand yours a beer? Maybe some Whiskey instead? Why should age have anything to do with it?
    Sure, that would be ok, but I would teach my kid to refuse it. Are you that poor of a parent that you need the state to parent for you? Teach your kid right from wrong, I'll teach mine the same, and leave it to the individual adult to decide what he wants to imbibe. Leave the state out of all of our personal lives.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 08:15:50 AM EST
    No Name: You're really not very bright, are you? Who here proposed letting kids have access to pot, or beer? We're talking about adults and marijuana. Keep up with the adults in the conversation, or go play somewhere else, junior. Well, I was bright enough to read all the posts, one of which is quoted in the one right after yours. By the way, this "junior" is a 52-year old parent.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 08:41:23 AM EST
    I have suffered from severe TMJ pain for two decades, from before it even was a widely recognized disorder. I've been through dozens of doctors and therapies but there really is no magic bullet. Pot doesn't make the pain go away, but it does help me deal with it. But my sources are extremely limited (friends who are equally fearful and/or in pain themselves and need their pitifully small supplies), and months go by when there is nothing to help me manage my pain except triple-doses of Advil, which I keep trying but don't seem to have much effect other than upsetting my digestive system. Those days when I'm able to smoke a little, I'm more productive at work, a better wife and mother, and an altogether nicer person. Only problem is, I'm tortured by the fact that what I'm doing is illegal and fearful of the consequences if I'm discovered. I'm a corporate executive, wife of 30 years to the same man, mother of five, and an evangelical Christian -- yet my "family values-oriented" government has no compassion for my affliction. It's just one minor reason among so many major ones why I despise this administration.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:27:45 AM EST
    Good luck to you motherlode, I know the feeling of being criminalized, though it doesn't bother me as much anymore (I'm used to it!). Our situations aren't really comparable (I just use for recreational reasons), but I can imagine the tough decisions you must face coping with your illness. Hopefully, in our lifetime, you will have legal access to the treatment that best suits you w/o fear of arrest or asset forfeiture.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:11:59 AM EST
    Motherlode at February 16, 2005 09:41 AM nuff said!!!

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:42:29 PM EST
    Criminalization suits the police state afficionados. Criminalization also suits law-abiding citizens who recognize the dangers of heading down the slippery slope of drug legalization. Sure, that would be ok, but I would teach my kid to refuse it. So, the logical extention of your arguement is that the rampant youth drug problem (and the associated crime and violence) found in inner cities is a result of bad parenting? Good, we agree. Or maybe parenting isn't as simple as you've imagined? Motherload Well, you really are the motherload, if you get my whif.. You're quite a Paradox. I'd swear that you didn't exist; you'd have to be conjured for a political purpose. Get yourself a good doctor and some Marinol. Or, as long as you're breaking the law, try Heroine - I'm sure it would make you feel very, very good. Isn't that what its all about? Feeling good? Leave the state out of all of our personal lives. Yes, and leave depravity out of ours. If you wish to engage in self-destructive behavior, fine, but do it at your own expense, at your own risk. Don't expect society to justify or condone such behavior. If this is the best the Dream Team can field, you guys better get used to the cold steel rails. ;-)

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:50:55 PM EST
    Just to state the obvious - - one of the more common side effects of chemotherapy is violent nausea. Keeping food or pills down is not easy. If you take marinol and vomit it back up 20 seconds later..it will not do you very good. The good thing about smoking MMJ for these people is that obviously they dont need to worry about not getting the desired effects. With vaporizers and what not becoming more readily available...most of the active substances in cannabis do not get inhaled. I dont think it really matters though, considering the long term effects of inhaling smoke really are trivial when you are fighting a deadly disease that could kill you long before smoking induced cancer would. Telling someone who is dying they can't try a herb that may help them cope or even prolong their life -or induce an appetite that allows them to eat so they can have energy to fight the most important battle any person could have? Because of some social hangup on pot? ARE U KIDDING ME? This is beyond cruelty and stupidity and is certainly immoral. As for the legalization thing and kids...high school aged kids across the country report every year that pot is easy to get and readily available. Sometimes even easier for kids to get than alcohol. If this is the reality the illegal status of the drug currently presents after trillions of dollars and millions of arrests- how could legalization and regulation possibly do any worse? It can't. But what it can do is ensure that we dont criminalize a huge segment of the population who, regardless of the legal status, will use this susbtance - recreationally or medically.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:57:56 AM EST
    He who...you do realize alcohol, tobacco, aspirin, diet pills are already legal. What is this slippery slope you speak of? So me smoking a joint in the privacy of my own home is depraved? How? Have you ever smoked mj? If not, how do you know whether it is depraved or not? I use to relax, is relaxation depraved? No one said parenting is easy, but it is the job of the parent, not the state. Just because your kid may not listen to you doesn't give you (or any parent) the right to expect the state to restrict the freedom of millions of adult individuals. Besides, mj has been illegal for 80 years or so, prohibiting it hasn't made it more difficult to obtain. I can get some w/ 10 minutes notice, 24/7. Why waste billions of dollars and restrict the freedom of otherwise law-abiding people for the fallacy of drug-free teenagers? As someone only ten years out of high school, I can personally verify it is 10X easier for a teen to obtain grass than alcohol. Drug dealers don't ask for ID, a liquor store does.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 11:55:36 AM EST
    He who etc etc writes:
    Criminalization also suits law-abiding citizens who recognize the dangers of heading down the slippery slope of drug legalization.
    First, I did a huge paper in college on drug legalization. There is no slippery slope that anyone can find. Second, I tried my first joint at 15. Don't even remember where we got it but remember it was as easy as going to a local street corner. That makes me a MJ smoker for the last 28 years during which time I've done lots of contributing to society and the common good. Can you tell me when this slippery slope kicks in? So far I haven't had the urge to drink, smoke cigarettes, shoot coke, snort meth (we used to call it crank). Can you tell me when to expect these henious urges? Then he innocently asks: the logical extention of your arguement is that the rampant youth drug problem (and the associated crime and violence) found in inner cities is a result of bad parenting? I don't know where you've been the past thirty odd years or so but bored, well financed suburban teens are the biggest consumers of recreational drugs. You are outing yourself as a classist and racist. You further insult a commenter with a similar argument to Montel's by saying that "I'd swear that you didn't exist". Perhaps Montel doesn't either? Too bad all these facts are throwing a wrench in your argument! You further caution us to
    do it at your own expense, at your own risk. Don't expect society to justify or condone such behavior.
    Happy to oblige on the expense and risk departments. Don't want society to justify or condone, just butt out. Of course... you want to save me from the
    laziness, apathy, and probably depression (these last 3 should be self-evident, if you've known any stoners - no offense Kdog).
    Sorry to burst one of your few remaining bubbles, He who, but during my "stoning" years I put myself through Harvard at night while working days and graduated cum laude. I work hard and pay a lot of taxes. Oh and lastly, re: your denial of suburban drug use (assuming you don't live in the inner city) and comment to kdog (?)
    Would it be ok for my 10 year old to hand yours a beer? Maybe some Whiskey instead?
    Trust me on this one, he who pontificates, if you do in fact have a 10 year old, chances are pretty darn good someone already has offered him a beer. Or a joint. Or a snort. If they haven't yet, they will soon. And you sure won't be there to chastise the friend and tell his mommy. If you want a drug-free kid, you don't have to fight for a drug-free world, just for a kid who says "no thanks".

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 12:05:20 PM EST
    If you want a drug-free kid, you don't have to fight for a drug-free world, just for a kid who says "no thanks".
    Excellent mfox, that sentence expresses my feelings towards the "for the children" mooks perfectly. Well done.

    Re: Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics O (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:57:01 PM EST
    Mfox whines First, I did a huge paper in college on drug legalization. There is no slippery slope that anyone can find. So you, as a dope-smoking law student, think you have single-handedly proved there is no slipperly slope? You might as well of written a paper "proving" the sky isn't blue. Arguing against something so fundamentally obvious is an exercise in futility. Next, you go directly (albeit predictably) to the Ad Hominem: You are outing yourself as a classist and racist. Wrong, Poindexter - You have just outed yourself as a Race-baiter. The fact that drugs exist in the suburbs does not negate the fact that drugs are also prevalent in the Inner City. And then you hand me this gem if you do in fact have a 10 year old, chances are pretty darn good someone already has offered him a beer. Or a joint. Or a snort. I don't care where you live, but out here in AnyTown, USA 10-year olds are NOT drinking or doing drugs. They are dreaming of being presidents or astronauts, NOT wondering where they will get their next high. And all this talk about, Well I'm a stoner, and I'm a Harvard Grad, I pay a lot of taxes, I work hard day and night, I'm a CEO, etc.. blah blah blah. That is the STUPIDEST anecdotal "evidence" arguing recreational drug use should be legalized that I have ever heard. By your infallible logic, if I can prove that a Herion addict graduated Oxford and lived a "productive" life, why then Heroin should be legalized! Never mind the fact that for every 1 person that makes it with a substance abuse problem, a disproportionate amount will be destroyed by it. I have no problem with anyone rolling the dice, but keep it underground where it belongs.

    Montel Williams: 'It's Time to Take Politics Out of the Debate' | 41 comments (41 topical)