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What's Wrong With Prostitution?

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:15:24 PM EST
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Law prof Glenn Reynolds makes a good point.

But, see, I'm a libertarian -- I've got no problem with gay male prostitutes. Or even gay female prostitutes (they have those, right?). Heck, I'd legalize prostitution -- gay and straight -- if it was up to me....What I don't quite get is when the Left became such a bunch of obsessively puritanical, curtain-peering Gladys Kravitz types. Lighten up, guys! It's only sex...

I've beem pretty astounded at all the people calling for Jeff Gannon's head because he may have been a prostitute. Go after him because he is a faux-journalist. Investigate whether he had inappropriate access to the White House or to leaked documents. Take him down if he did--and those that assisted him, whether they be gay or straight. But because he may have been a hooker? Sorry, you lose me there. I could care less.

Glenn's a libertarian. I'm a defense lawyer. Enforcing laws against prostitution and recreational drug use are a waste of time. And, I might point out, supported by the Bush administration. Why line up with them just to get Gannon?

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    What's Wrong With Prostitution? | 66 comments (66 topical)
    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:38:52 PM EST
    I could not agree more TL. We should be making a point of supporting him on these points, in a way, even if subtextually. You know? I understand some people want to point out the hypocrisy of conservatives using the services of a guy with Gannon's past -- the type of past the right attributes to those destroying the country, going to hell, etc -- this issue should be argued SOLELY on the basis of its ethical and legal questions.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:43:06 PM EST
    Glenn actually wants it to be about sex. The more important questions would be how did he get hired as a journalist by Talon, become vetted using a faux name by the White House and who did he receive information about Valarie Plame from? Sure Glenn it's just about sex. The sex only points out the hypocrisy of the Bush Adminstration.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:46:23 PM EST
    Or even gay female prostitutes (they have those, right?)
    Yes! An old friend of mine (a 71 year-old former Marine corps drill sergeant) spent R&R with prostitutes just as her male counterparts did.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:52:05 PM EST
    (a) Who's been calling for Gannon's head because he's a prostitute? (b) Judy's got it absotively right. (c) Glenn's not a libertarian. He's a movement Republican who *says* he's a libertarian. No one who's actually a libertarian could stomach the Bush Campaignistration, let alone carry their rancid water.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:55:09 PM EST
    Nobody is "calling for his head" for the gay prostitution thing. Gannon/Guckert was a paid shill for a right wing media, asking softball questions at press conferences. He had zero experience in the press. So, after one blatant softball question too many, some people wondered "who the hell is this guy?" They found out that he had zero experience in journalism, was working under a pseudonym, and was working for a TINY press outfit which was really a front for a GOP operation. Pretty outrageous. The gay prostitute story is interesting in part because he wrote stories attacking Kerry as being to close to gays. It's interesting because his past might be related to his present employment. I'm all for letting gay prostitutes be gay prostitutes. But I don't think that makes him qualified to be in the press corps, and since he seems to have no relevant experience, and he wasn't operating as a journalist, I don't see why asking what he is doing in the White House is unfair. Plus, the whole gay military stud is just priceless as a metaphor for the Bush era. What's really funny is his defenders. Apparently one winger said, "Mark Twain worked under a pseudonym."

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#6)
    by wishful on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:56:24 PM EST
    UM...no...he can prostitute himself as much as he wants as long as he can find willing customers. Go for it baby. But the White House Press Corps is a pretty exclusive bunch. Many good, seasoned journalists can't get a day pass even once, let alone for over two years running. This Guckert guy is no journalist--no straight journalist, no gay journalist--no journalist period. He is a gay prostitute on the White House Gaggle for an administration that claims to have won a recent hotly contested election in large part by demonizing gays. Anyone listening? Anyone out there? This is indeed scandalous. It should be especially scandalous to people who support gay rights. These self-righteous do-gooders are trying to CHANGE the CONSTITUTION for the purpose of denying rights to gay people. The scandal is not that Guckert is gay. It would not surprise me if there were gay real journalists. In fact, it would be surprising to learn that there are no gay journalists. Get over it. How did Guckert get information about a covert govt agent--Valerie Plame, including details? He said that he was questioned about it by the FBI in their investigation, and admitted to unauthorizedly having this classified information. Is he blackmailing someone in the administration to have had such unauthorized info? Was one of his clients someone well-placed? Remember, his journalism training consisted entirely of a weekend seminar. It is doubtful that his journalistic sleuthing abilities and connections got him that info. Keep up here folks. Guckert's gayness is not the issue, nor is it the scandal.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Kitt on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:57:23 PM EST
    Whatever miniscule beef I have with Jeff Gannon isn't over being gay, a prostitute, a bald dude or someone who likes walking around in his undies, it's over the bullsh*t of being a pseudo-reporter ~ or is it faux-reporter (?) and all the commotion he managed to generate for himself.....again.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:01:47 PM EST
    This guy got put in the White House press room not because of his journalism skills but rather because he would act as a useful propaganda foil. The fact that he is a male prostitute just illustrates that, in the White House's rush to put him on the propaganda fast track, they didn't even bother to vet him.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Darryl Pearce on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:05:01 PM EST
    After all my years (I'm only 44... still), I've seen it does no good to point out somebody's hypocricy. People will rationalize support for their group and will make up stuff to criticize others and outsiders. Those convinced against their will hold their own opinions still.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:08:26 PM EST
    It isn't the sex, it's the hypocrisy. Sex good. Hypocrisy bad.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:15:56 PM EST
    exactly who is calling for gannon's head (no pun intended) for being a prostitute? as i said on my blog, what if jeff were named jenny, and was taking money for heterosexual favors. don't you think that a (female heterosexual) protstitute having easy access to the white house is a story? no? ok, what if her name were monica and she did it for free?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:27:16 PM EST
    How can the right say prostitution is bad, when the swift boat liars are the biggest whores in the history of the world's oldest profession?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:33:46 PM EST
    Wishful, et.al.: You're right, it shouldn't be the issue. but there are many in Left Blogistan who are making it the issue.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:42:09 PM EST
    You know why the gay prostitution is a big thing? 1. Hyprocrisy is number one, of course. 2. Prostitution (gay or straight) is still illegal in many jurisdictions including the ones he, um, worked in. Regardless of what one thinks about whether or not it should be a criminal act, the point is that it is. The question is how did someone who engaged in illegal activity, let alone illegal activity that due to society's rather old-fashioned sensibilities sees as especially icky and is therefore a prime security risk via blackmail, get security clearance? Then there is, of course, the other question. Here's someone immensely unqualified for his position. If Gannon had been Jane Gannon, hot blonde babe with a big rack, and it turned out she'd been a prostitute and had no jounalistic experience, the first question on everyone's mind would be "Who'd she screw to get access?" That's one of the reasons people are going after him. Did his position in the Press Room have anything to do with his other activities?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:42:18 PM EST
    This is typical b.s. from the right (Reynolds) that you have unfortunately bought into. His (or your) thoughts about prostitution, and whether it SHOULD be legal, are not relevant. The fact is that prostitution IS illegal. What if Gannon were selling heroin on the side? Would Reynolds' (or your) approval of selling heroin have anything to do with what one would think should be done about a heroin dealer being part of the White House press corps?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:44:48 PM EST
    "Pay no attention to the naked gay conservative male prostitute sitting in the middle of the family values white house living room."* *Digby

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:58:45 PM EST
    Hmmm, I understand half the female journalists are using "faux names" - their maiden names. And some of the big news guys have simplified spellings of their real names. Is that a problem? -C

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:59:13 PM EST
    So now it's not about sex. It's that he lied? Or something? Difficult to keep up. Why am I getting dizzy?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:15:58 PM EST
    And wishful: there are many, many gay journalists. Count among them CNN's Miguel Marquez, ABC's Jeffrey Kofman, the New York Time's Frank Bruni, and Pulitzer Prize winning Village Voice reporter Mark Schoofs.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:25:10 PM EST
    For me it's about the hypocrisy of the White House and the GOP...if a gay hooker showed up asking questions to Joe Lockhart and Bill Clinton in 1998 using a fake name and working for a fake left-wing news site, the right-wing would be all over it. But now, after running a homophobic 2004 re-election campaign where they strategically used gay marriage as a wedge issue and as a moral value, they are being exposed as hypocrites. When so many GOP'ers and White House staffers are gay (Dreier, Drudge, Ed Scrock, Mehlman, Condi, McClellan), the hypocrisy of these people is just too much to take. So I for one am hoping that the Mainstream media finally picks up this case and exposes these "moral values" people for the self-loathing, pathetic scum they are.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:31:29 PM EST
    Maybe you all have it wrong. Maybe the repubs are less biased. See the cabinet's racial makeup. The "homophobic" campaign was restricted to marriage, which, if you push it, could be considered homophobic, but then, if they were really homophobic, they could have been proposing laws making sodomy illegal or something. Maybe the guy's orientation seemed irrelevant, which is more than it seems to the liberals around here.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:13:31 PM EST
    Thank you, Mr. Aubrey; that was VERY well said. In my experience, few here have the wherewithall to appreciate such fine use of irony (to say next to nothing for accuracy).

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:24:49 PM EST
    Scalia was unhappy with the majority making sodomy legal.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:34:12 PM EST
    Yeah, using a maiden name is the same as using your prostitution alias. Right. See, a woman using her maiden name professionally is trying to create some continuity in her career, so that her reputation follows her more easily. James Guckert was, as a prostitute, "Jeff." As a White House reporter, he was "Jeff Gannon." I guess it could be said he had a similar desire for continuity in his career, but I'm having a hard time making that work out as saying much about his commitment to journalism.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Adept Havelock on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:47:49 PM EST
    So I gather the trolls here have no problem with the fact that the secret service was either: 1)Incompetent enough to allow a butterbar "journalist" who worked as a prostitute within a few feet of the president (no..no security risk here at all.....) during one conference. or: 2)the Secret Service was told to allow Gannon/Guckert admission. This also begs the question of whom allowed this. Of course, there's also the Plame memo issue. Are the trolls here really so blinded by "our guy, our party, no matter what" that they would really admit that the security of the White House is irrelevant? Or the leaking of classified information to someone this questionable? The answer, as I'm sure will be borne out in the thread that follows, is sadly yes. Of course, they'll be busy trying to pretend like it's only about sex, or Gannon/Guckert's sexuality to cover for these other points. Oy. Time for bed.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:57:38 PM EST
    And wishful: there are many, many gay journalists. Count among them CNN's Miguel Marquez, ABC's Jeffrey Kofman, the New York Time's Frank Bruni, and Pulitzer Prize winning Village Voice reporter Mark Schoofs. How many of them have websites advertising their 8.5 inch cock for sale for $200 an hour -- complete with pictures of said member in full salute? How many of them are born-again Christians with a sideline as rentboys for $1200 a week-end? How many of them are fake newsmen representing fake news services run by not-so-fake Texas GOP operatives with close ties to the White House? How many of them ask planted questions of Bush at scripted press conferences -- and have Bush answer them? "Lighten up, it's only sex!" Yeah, Instahack, and I'm sure you were saying that when Ken Starr and his panty-sniffers were prying into the sex lives of anybody who'd ever been to a Clinton fundraiser. Or when Lucianne Goldberg, Linda Tripp, Michael Isikoff and the Elves were on the hunt for sperm on a blue dress. Of course, Reynolds thinks the outing of an undercover CIA agent by at least two close White House associates of Bush is just too complicated to understand, so I suppose I can see how he's unable to figure out why the fact that a fake newsman who serves up softball questions to the Preznit at his scripted press conferences and who works for a GOP front is also posting pictures of his swollen dick all over the internets as an advertisement for his escort service might be newsworthy. Go figure.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:09:48 PM EST
    No name: Lighten up a little. I was just responding to wishful's wondering if there are any legitimate gay reporters out there.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:13:35 PM EST
    I have to admit that as distasteful as I've found much of the blog coverage to be, I am impressed with the creativity of the name it seems to have attracted. Instead of making it another "gate" (Watergate, Travelgate, Zippergate, Memogate, ad nauseum), the Jeff Gannon affair is being referred to as "Manchurian Beefcake". I about laughed my guts out when I saw that.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:21:31 PM EST
    Don't miss the satisfied customer testimonials.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 10:01:30 PM EST
    Read your last sentence again, please. It's not to "get" Gannon, or anti-gay, or anti-whore, it's about getting the Ruling Hypocrites, using their same time-honored tactics. Turn about is fair, or do Democrats always have to fight with both hands tied behind their backs? Stop the circular firing squad mentality, or change the name to "Talk sumthin, uh, wealsely..."

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:16:56 PM EST
    Howie Kurtz seems to have a change of heart in the Washington Post. He's still (rightly) fixating on the frothy-mouthed aspect of the people digging into the Manchurian Beefcake (sorry, I just love that), but he's also mentioned that Gannon has been lying through his teeth all week (claiming he has never written an anti-gay story, never went live with the web sites, etc.) which is pretty much an invitation for the other side to impeach his claims. As the stomach churns...

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#32)
    by libdevil on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:17:04 PM EST
    Gannon/Guckert is done with. Nobody needs to get him any more. It was done before anybody found out he was a hooker. But because Gannon is linked intimately to the GOP and the Bush administration (somebody was getting him in the door every day), the prostitution angle makes a convenient bludgeon. And he's gay? Even a better bludgeon, considering the administration's blatant homophobia. Sure, it's stooping to their level, but gutter politics works. The American people respond to it, for whatever reason. And really, when you catch a really bad guy doing something that's so obviously going to ruin his life, is a little schadenfreude so bad? I'm sick of playing nice with Republicans, and I'm happy to watch them suffer and stew. If the entire administration had a horrible hog-lagoon accident and drowned in liquified pig feces, I'd dance a happy jig. Fate's just not that kind, so I'll settle for watching Gannon squirm.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:48:12 PM EST
    I had a nice long comment going and then I decided to waste my own bandwidth on it. Feel to chime in either here or there.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#34)
    by brian on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:50:39 PM EST
    Okay, I haven't read all the responeses, so I should probably not type, but I'm kind of stupid. Why pay attention to Jeff Gannon/James Gluckert's possible (and let's please emphasize possible) work as a gay prostitute. I, personally, am all for prostitution, for reasons I won't discuss here (there's a really interesting debate, libertarian, defense lawyer, and others invited). The point is, a possible male prostitute, or at least a man who worked for gay "escort" services was a shill for an administration that stood loud and proud for a constitutional amendment to define marriage as only a hetero thing represents a level of hyopcrisy of, well, a height that this administration attains regularly, but is allowed a pass on. What is at issue is the hypocrisy, which we on the left have been screaming about. Hiring a possible gay prostitute highlights this issue in a very strong way. Maybe we need to find a way to talk about this differently (which is what I would argue. He can be a gay prostitute, but for the biggest homophobe in the world?), but the issue of hypocrisy remains.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#35)
    by s5 on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:52:30 AM EST
    You and Professor Instahack have unfortunately both missed the point. By itself, it doesn't matter that he is or was a gay prostitute. What matters is that he published anti-gay "news" through his fake news agency, Talon. Please, let's not allow our desire to be fair minded blind us to the obvious hypocrisy of being a gay prostitute who writes anti-gay news.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 02:57:47 AM EST
    James Guckart worked in the White House as a media whore, planted to ask nice softball questions read directly from the White House briefings. That Guckart was apparently not just a media whore but also worked as a prostitute is just icing on the cake. It makes it even funnier.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 04:03:43 AM EST
    I think Glen "Instapundit" Reynolds is pushing his "righteous indignation" act. Again. It's just too bad that our intrepid TalkLeft writers fell for his act. Sure, the fact that the hoary "media whore" comments are out there make his job easier, but they were out there BEFORE anybody had unearthed the seedier stuff. The phrase "whoring" has become heavily diluted in online missives, so much so that we're often surprised when we run across the "real thing". Reynolds is simply wallowing in the "poor victim" role. Far too many people get peasure from this, as it absolves them of responsibility. It gives them the illusion of not throwing the first punch.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 05:50:13 AM EST
    I agree with jesurgislac, the whoring for the administration is what is getting Gannon/Guckert in trouble. The rest is just more entertainment from the "values" crowd provided by G/G as he twists slowly in the wind. If you enjoy that sort of thing, savor the moment. But remember that as we judge, so shall we be judged. The hypocrisy and artifice of the Guckert affair is the judgment that is being made. The staging of the "news" with a plant in the WH press corps. Even our MSM hacks got irritated when the staging of the news involves hiring/whoring "newsmen." Armstrong Williams, part two.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:12:16 AM EST
    Jesurgislac - Good heavens. Gannon didn't work in the White House any more than Helen Thomas worked in the White House. And if Gannon and Thomas did, so what? s5 - Talon News is as real as many other news agencies. Check the link. And tell us how you like the disparaging remarks of Chris Rock about gays I mean you being concerned and everything. Adept writes - "1)Incompetent enough to allow a butterbar "journalist" who worked as a prostitute within a few feet of the president (no..no security risk here at all.....) during one conference." Another nice homophobic statement. Why? For years and years gays couldn't get clearances because, supposedly, they could be comprimised and forced to do evil and unpatrotic things.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:39:40 AM EST
    And his personal life would BE irrelevant if he hadn't published it ALL OVER THE INTERNET! Do you really believe DailyKos and Americablog went to Delaware to find this stuff? It was not the net for anyone to find! His personal life was no longer personal because he was selling his tail on the net. Wait a minute...make that his PROFESSIONAL life because he was selling his tail on the net.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 06:58:24 AM EST
    Hmmm, I understand half the female journalists are using "faux names" - their maiden names. And some of the big news guys have simplified spellings of their real names. It's my understanding (from reading coverage of the Gannon story before any of the salacious details broke) that this is not true. The first thing I saw about Gannon was a blog post asking why he was able to get press credentials for a pen name, when there was a hard policy forbidding any other journalist from getting credentials in anything other than their legal name. A reporter working professionially under her birth name, Jane Smith, but carrying a drivers license in the name of Mrs. Jane Jones, was required to get White House press credentials in the name Jane Jones. No one cares about the use of a nom de plume; the only reason anyone is interested in Gannon's/Guckert's two names is that they reveal a violation of White House policy on his behalf.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 07:03:27 AM EST
    Adept writes - "1)Incompetent enough to allow a butterbar "journalist" who worked as a prostitute within a few feet of the president (no..no security risk here at all.....) during one conference." Another nice homophobic statement. Why? For years and years gays couldn't get clearances because, supposedly, they could be comprimised and forced to do evil and unpatrotic things. This is blitheringly idiotic. A prostitute is a criminal, vulnerable to criminal liability, regardless of what you think the rights or wrongs of that law are. Can't you see that the blackmail potential for both the hooker and his clients, as well as the potential for connection with other criminal figures, is in an entirely different world than that of someone who is gay, whether closeted or not?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 07:21:41 AM EST
    Though I don't care what his orientation is, he still F***ed his way into the WH press room.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 07:28:20 AM EST
    Che, apart from rumors about McClellan's sexuality, there is just no evidence to support that assertion.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 08:04:18 AM EST
    this is the instahack now but remember he is the one who made snarky remarks about lesbians to sell his wife's tape (although completely inapproriate) If the sides were reversed --Glenn would be piling on...he is a rightwing looney

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#47)
    by wishful on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 08:40:17 AM EST
    Michael Ditto, maybe Che's assertion of how Guckert got into the WH Press room is based on the new Bushist logic. One must prove innocence of an allegation that is based on incomplete evidence, otherwise one is assumed guilty. Remember the 45 min. delivery of WMD to the shores of the US by Iraq claim? We used shock and awe against anyone in close proximity of those unable to adequately disprove that and other claims. Should we go back to rational discourse now, and if so, why? Or maybe it is not based on Bush's faulty logic. Maybe it is just food for thought, since, AFAIK, Che is not in a position to, nor would want to bomb Guckert and those in near physical proximity.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Adept Havelock on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:00:39 AM EST
    ppj- Nice strawman argument, but no dice. You claim it's a homophobic statement. I could care less about his sexuality (and said as much.) He would be just as big a security threat if he were a heterosexual prostitute. The fact remains, the Secret Service either: 1) Incompetently allowed a prostitute/butterbar "journalist" within a few feet of the president, in the White House itself. or: 2) The Secret Service was ordered to allow him in. This still begs the question of who allowed this. Then there's the Plame issue. From what I remember from Aristotle, these are the only two possiblities, unless you want to rewrite the rules of logic. Of course, as a troll, it's your self-described job to be purposefully obtuse and refuse to see any of these points. Here's a cookie. Good troll.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:00:40 AM EST
    Talon news is legitimate? Right. You folks really haven't been following this story, have you? I still think it is interesting that he chose to use his prostitute alias rather than his real name when working as a white house reporter. I can only think of one reason for that: someone in the White House already knew him as Jeff Gannon, and they decided to avoid confusion by calling him Jeff rather than James Guckert.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:17:49 AM EST
    Replace any reference to "Bush" with "Clinton" and imagine how Fox or any of the echo chamber would react. That's the point. It's not about sex, it's about hypocrisy. Don't let the echo-chamber re-define this issue.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:24:11 AM EST
    Coming soon on FOX: "This is Hot Jeff Gannon, reporting live from Abu Ghraib Prison. Geraldo Rivera is on vacation...In other news, Hot George Bush strangled thirty squealing white bunnies on the front lawn of the White House for this year's Easter celebration, announcing that he would do the same to Mohammed if they can find the guy. He then farted audibly, and rubbed the bald pate on a row of visiting African diplomats, while tapping his bullwhip against his monographed chaps (with bare arse, the latest in Hot Presidential wear). Jerry Falwell was visibly aroused by the Christianity of this display." Aside from YET ANOTHER HISTORIC DEFAMATION of American dignity, the ongoing sadomasochism of these latter day fascists is custom produced to create the image of Americans as immoral, vulgar, racist, cruel, and violent-dominant. Gee, I wonder who's illegal corrupt interests all this Hate America and How! rightwing thinktank stuff serves? This is just another Karl Rove takedown of our reputations, intended to weaken our national security yet more. What's next? Bush endorsing parent-child coprophagy? Cheney announcing that young boys can line up at the back gate to get carriage rides for licking his hemorrhoids? Britney Spears announcing that she is carrying Karl Rove's goat-headed child? Surreal, thy name is Republican.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:35:18 AM EST
    Adept - Why would a female prostitue be a security threat? What is she going to do, give the President a STD from 30 feet? No, you were playing to the old stereotype, gays can't be trusted because they can be blackmailed. And if his sexuality makes no difference, why did you bring it up? Heck, the next thing you'll be telling is that some of your best friends are gay, but..... Paul In LA - Didn't we just have a conversation about you attacking fracists, and how that, based on your very own definition of racism, is racist? Shame, shame on you. Mispalced - Hope you find..never mind. Talon is as real as moveon.org and CBS. I wouldn't depend on them as my sole news source

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:41:45 AM EST
    Why would a female prostitue be a security threat? What is she going to do, give the President a STD from 30 feet? No, you dimwit, she can be blackmailed and is likely to have criminal associates. Blackmail for being gay? Not a real risk in this day and age. Blackmail for being a sexworker and criminal, or for the clients of the hooker in question? Pretty significant risk.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Adept Havelock on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:05:53 AM EST
    PPJ- I appreciate the fact you believe you can read my mind, and thus, what I was thinking when I wrote something. Where did you obtain such magical powers? No, I believe that the Secret Service would view anyone with that questionable a background a potential threat, especially in the days of the war on terror. At least, I would hope they were that compentent. Why did I bring up his sexuality? Probably because you accused me of being homophobic, knowing that you had no other line of attack. As I said in my original post "Of course, they'll be busy trying to pretend like it's only about sex, or Gannon/Guckert's sexuality to cover for these other points." Thank you proving my thesis. You've been a lovely troll, and proven yourself a typical wingnut. Thanks for playing.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:10:38 AM EST
    If being blackmailed for being gay is not an issue anymore, then everyone would come out of the closet. The fact is that people stay closeted because at least to them there is the possibility that something bad will happen if they come out. Ergo, they have a vested interested in staying closeted and are subject to blackmail. You guys make this country a place where gay people can walk around freely, get elected to public office, and be equal citizens, and then you'll have the world where blackmail is no longer an issue for gay people.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:35:17 AM EST
    Not to mention being blackmaied for being involved in an illegal activity - prostitution. You may disagree with it being prosecuted, but it can be. And when a person is arrested for prostitution, they might lose their job, and they should at least lose their security clearance to get into the government press conferences at will. Being outed as a criminal can have serious effects on someone's career, and anyone involved in prostitution would be incredibly subject to blackmail. It doesn't matter what you think about legalizing prostitution. It just isn't legal right now, and many people are against it. It could still send someone to jail, and certainly opens them up to embarassment. This can create security risks.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Adept Havelock on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:43:22 AM EST
    DA- Thanks for the reminders about DM and Profumo. Red Herring's all PPJ and his fellow wingnuts (after this one, I feel obliged to throw him in with the others) have on this. And they know it.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:35:53 PM EST
    Thought experiment- imagine Jeff's dayjob and/or moonlighting job had *nothing* to do with sex. Instead, what if he had a website and links advertising his artistic, handmade, $200 to $1200 bongs? The same sort of bongs for which Chong just finished his 9 months in jail. The bongs which many democrats and libertarians would agree ought not to be illegal, but the administration believes hurts traditional family values. Would this story still have legs? Yes, because: 1. hypocrisy -this is provably not acceptable behavior according to the administration's policies and actions. The administration is willing to have people lose their livelihoods over this job... Why does Jeff get a pass- ignorance or forgiveness? 2. questionable credentials- certainly new news sites should be represented in the most important American pressroom, but Jeff gets in over *actual investigative writers* from new news sites. Jeff's credentials and writing style puts him in the talented highschool newspaper quality camp. Did he first spent 6 months or 1 month covering *anything* other than the WH? Governors? Battleground state legislators? No- he hangs out his shingle and gets into the WH in 1 month. 3. Ringer's questions and softball questions: within 6 months of getting into the WH pressroom he's asking convenient questions that help McClellan. Pitchers aren't supposed to help the batters in this game. 4. The Plame memo: within 7 months of getting into the WH pressroom he becomes an insider with access to Plame memo information. How?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 03:39:57 PM EST
    The hypocracy is what bothers me. Put aside the "gay prostitute" issue for a second and think of the other obvious example. I am opposed to most of our nation's restrictive drug laws. But if Jeff Gannon were a drug dealer writing articles calling for stricter drug laws or supporting imprisonment for drug felons or denouncing Democratic efforts to pass more lenient drug laws, then I doubt anyone here would have a problem with "outing him as a drug dealer." (And c'mon, people: would his drug dealing be considered part of his "private life"? Of course not.) The other issue that hasn't been mentioned is that, perhaps while a gay prostitute, he evaded taxes. (We know of one judgment against him for $20,000 in Delaware.) I'm furthermore willing to bet he didn't declare his income as a hustler. This guy is simply Roy Cohn Redux. Think of the ruined lives that would have been salvaged if, during the 1950s and 1960s, somebody had had the courage to stop Roy Cohn from accusing dozens of people of being "homosexual" (including several who weren't), by pointing out that Cohn himself was "guilty" of the same "crime." Does anyone here really think it would have been improper to "out" Roy Cohn?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 08:12:33 PM EST
    Doctor Ace, it's a long way from prostitution to kidnapping and sex slavery. Believe it or not, some people are quite willing prostitutes.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 06:30:20 AM EST
    "Believe it or not, some people are quite willing prostitutes." That, Mike, is a spectacle one doesn't have to go very far to see. But the ones who would legalize it need to understand that it is not necessarily a victimless crime.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:15:21 AM EST
    CP - No. The fact that he is a gay prostitue is an issue only if you make it one. He certainly is commenting about it.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:43:27 AM EST
    only to be beaten, have their passports stolen, and be forced into prostitution
    Ace, these women are victims of either assault, kidnapping, fraud, or slavery. Prostitution between two willing adult parties is victimless, hence it should be legal.
    wonder how many here are aware that in much of the third world, orphaned children are nabbed and made to prostitute for "sex tours
    Once again, no one is proposing legalizing child abuse, kidnapping, or molestation. Just prostitution between willing adults.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 11:59:36 AM EST
    Draw who out? I don't follow. Do you mean the kidnappers and violent types? The bad stuff you mention can be associated w/ prostitution, but those things are already illegal in their own right (kidnapping, assault, etc.) Wouldn't society be better served in going after kidnappers, abusers and scammers, as opposed to a willing adult sex worker and a willing adult client? I see a comparison in drug prohibition. Regarding the problems often associated with drug abuse (robbery, assault, etc.), wouldn't we also be better served in going after muggers and thieves as opposed to otherwise law-abiding, non-violent recreational drug users? It seems like common sense to me, a crime must have a victim. Repeat after me...No victim, no crime, no victim, no crime. We have enough crimes WITH VICTIMS to worry about.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    Doctor Ace: The trouble with sex slavery isn't the sex; it's the slavery. By the way, do you like chocolate?

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 04:02:00 AM EST
    "Posted by Doctor Ace: ""Believe it or not, some people are quite willing prostitutes."" "That, Mike, is a spectacle one doesn't have to go very far to see. " No lie. Just turn on the "news." "But the ones who would legalize it need to understand that it is not necessarily a victimless crime." Neither is murdering tens of thousands of innocent people, ape.

    Re: What's Wrong With Prostitution? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:23:12 PM EST
    I believe, although it's hard to find the rules written out on the net, that the con above who said female reporters use "faux names" (their maiden names) all the time inadvertently showed why cons have a reputation for both ignorance and double standards. In fact, the White House does not credential female married reporters under their maiden names, even if that's their professional name. The only journalist I know of for sure who uses a "faux" name, is Leslie Blitzer, who goes by "Wolf." And he's a fawning whore for the GOP, anyway, so he doesn't bolster the Gannon case at all.

    What's Wrong With Prostitution? | 66 comments (66 topical)