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More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Year

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:48:29 AM EST
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This is an astonishing figure. The AP reports that more than 500,000 veterans will be homeless this year. That's 1/3 of all homeless men in America.

The VA says about half the nation's homeless veterans have some form of mental illness, and nearly 70 percent struggle with alcohol and drugs.

The VA's statement on homeless vets is here. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans is here and reports this is a crisis in the making.

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    More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Year | 60 comments (60 topical)
    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:59:41 AM EST
    I wonder how this figure stacks up against the general population?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:02:38 AM EST
    Shame, shame, shame. Should be good news for the Ecstacy makers. I wish all of the pro-life and pro-war people would adopt a pregnant mom and a homeless vet to live with them.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#3)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:06:50 AM EST
    “I wish all of the pro-life and pro-war people would adopt a pregnant mom and a homeless vet to live with them.” I think most folks who supported the invasion of Iraq are as pro-war as you are pro-abortion.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:14:31 AM EST
    Bottom line, we need to do more for vets. Whatever it takes, whatever they need...just do it. We owe them. I surmise buying one or two less fighter jets or subs could provide vet benefits for thousands. Defense contractors won't like that none too much, but freak them.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:49:36 AM EST
    That's really sad to hear. My dad's a vet, some of my friends are vets, so it pains me to put this out here even for the sake of discussion: Soldiers tend to come from lower income brackets. So do homeless people. The portion of homeless vets may have more to do with that than with being vets.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:19:58 AM EST
    As a "vet", I have a few questions.... Are the homeless vets in this position because of wartime mental or physical disabilities? What percentage served in war and what percentage did not see any conflict whatsoever? Do we owe more to those that served and participated during a war (not someone stationed in Germany during the Iraq war) than those who served during no conflicts? Why is there such a large portion of the total homeless population represented by veterans? Do we "owe" veterans, and how should it be differentiated between wartime service and non-conflict time service? Do we "owe" peace corps volunteers who put themselves in peril around the globe facing violence and disease to serve their fellow man? We have a volunteer army and it is hard for me to say that "we owe" them something especially those that served during peace-time (myself included). For those that served during a conflict, I can see an obligation to those that were wounded emotionally or physically but beyond that group I don't feel we "owe" them (us, being that I am one) anything. When I joined I knew that there was a slight probability we might get engaged in a conflict but the desire to get funds for an education trumped those concerns. The tuition reimbursement program ended being about 25k in costs that I paid zilch for unless of course you count 3 years of my life. Being that I received a free education based on my veteran status, I ask again, what more does society "owe" me?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:20:59 AM EST
    kdog - Okay, let's don't give'em the weapons they need. That'll help'em to NOT become veterans. mfox - Okay. I'll swap you one GITMO terrorist prisoner for one homeless vet. Where shall I send him? And do you have prayer rugs, etc.? Also, he demands to beat you whenever he feels it is needed. Any problems??

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:22:26 AM EST
    It's a good thing, not for the veterans themselves of course but for the American society in general. They are trained killers, and if killers can't adapt to their society it proves the society at large still is pretty sane. (The Romans gave their veterans a small farm to live on. Don't know what an American equivalent would be.)

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:29:06 AM EST
    There is nothing new under this sky. The original HOBOs were disaffected Civil War Vets, who never fit back into the general society.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:34:53 AM EST
    mar, (The Romans gave their veterans a small farm to live on. Don't know what an American equivalent would be.) Actually, among the full basket of services that the VA offers, there is an obscure program, by which veterans can homestead at no cost land in Montana. Somethings never change.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    It's a good thing, not for the veterans themselves of course but for the American society in general. They are trained killers, and if killers can't adapt to their society it proves the society at large still is pretty sane.
    Vets are disproportionately common in high government positions, too. What about them? To use your terminology, we have "trained killers" running our society. For our last presidential election, we argued over who did a better job as a "trained killer".
    (The Romans gave their veterans a small farm to live on. Don't know what an American equivalent would be.)
    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:55:06 AM EST
    Kdog says hey we need to help em' and to hell with the cost. WHATEVER IT TAKES!!!! Let me translate this.... People with money need to give more of it, so other people can do sump'n to help them folks...I (kdog) will continue to do nothing but talk....

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:58:14 AM EST
    PPj - Unless,through some extraordinary psychic power you know unequivocably that theyre terrorists,your propagandizing - but what else is new? Now roll over and let Bush scratch your belly.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:07:50 PM EST
    Eclaire - I think kdog is including himself when he says "we". This is a great thread for the wingnuts to show thier colors - chickenhawk sh*t brown when they want soldiers to go kick some a** for them,and just plain chicken sh*t when asked to do something themselves.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:13:15 PM EST
    ...we argued over who did a better job as a "trained killer". I know. I always thought avoiding Vietnam like Bush (and Clinton) did was the smart thing to do.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:17:52 PM EST
    wtf does the civil war and romans have to do with .5m veterans homeless. this is a modern phenomenon. if you have more, you enjoy more, you pay more. nothing is gonna change that. your money will be illegally confiscated by both dems and reps. the left/right simply disagree on what to spend the illegal booty on. spreading democracy ain't high on my list, while the current state of american education has to be addressed, if not for the kids, for the future. .5m homeless has to be addressed, it makes no difference if their vets or not. this lame duck presidency is unraveling like a dollar store sweater. this admin has went from the precedent of pretending to care, to just talking about they care, to just fu@@k'em. yet the reps don't see this. i assure you bushCo has something else in store for you, contrary to your belief, they do not have your best interest as concern.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:25:18 PM EST
    what boils my blood it to see all of those "support the troops" stickers on the back of autos (especially suv's) i just want to ask them what have you done to support the troops?] have you clicked on a vet website and sent MONEY? have you volunteered at a homeless shelter? donated clothing? I personally have not done any of the above for i myself am on disability and cannot not afford a vehicle but it still erks me to see the "sticker" mentality of people

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:26:48 PM EST
    I would love to see the internal workings of this kind of bull$hit. How do catalogue homeless people? How the hell do you even count them? Its not like you can call them or show up at their door. You would have to show some pretty serious science behind a survey like this for it to even be taken slightly serious.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:29:39 PM EST
    .........And even more curious, why would you post an article like this under the heading "War in Iraq?" Is this your inate desire to bash all things military showing through, TL?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:30:37 PM EST
    Okay, let's don't give'em the weapons they need
    We have more weapons than we will ever need. Keep treating vets like crap, and there will be no one to use them. JLV.. Good points. I may have gone overboard a bit. I do disagree with one point...25k in tuition and whatever pathetic wages the service pays for 3 yrs., I think the service gets the better of that deal. Personally, I'd expect a lot more for signing my life away. Not to offend or belittle your choice in anyway, just my feeling. I was mainly referring to vets of war in my post, but no one who serves in peace or war should be forgotten. Maybe we don't owe them, but we have the resources to help them, and we should do more. Couldn't the military offer temporary housing on bases for homeless vets? Offer them some type of civilian employment?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#21)
    by wishful on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:38:13 PM EST
    What ever happened to the cry to support the troops? Actions speak louder than words. We know who is running the country. We know who has the power to take action in our names. And we see what they are doing.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:38:22 PM EST
    hardLed, wtf does the civil war and romans have to do with .5m veterans homeless. this is a modern phenomenon. If I may, I would counsel you two things. First, to be a good student of history; for it teaches you the permanent human reactions throughout the times. Experiencing combat first hand does permanently change anyone who lived through it. Most veterans readjust back to society once they return... a minority though cannot. This has been the case throughout the years. We first had three generations of Hoboes. Civil War, Spanish American War and WWI vets. WWII & Korea gave us the Hells Angels. We are surely to have a new generation of disaffected Vets once our current War on Terror is finished. That's the constant of human nature that history can teach you. The Second thing I would counsel you, is to learn how to better express yourself. You'd make better sense and lend more weight to your words, if you'd scrub those four-lettered words out of your lexicon.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:41:14 PM EST
    hardLed, wtf does the civil war and romans have to do with .5m veterans homeless. this is a modern phenomenon. If I may, I would counsel you two things. First, to be a good student of history; for it teaches you the permanent human reactions throughout the times. Experiencing combat first hand does permanently change anyone who lived through it. Most veterans readjust back to society once they return... a minority though cannot. This has been the case throughout the years. We first had three generations of Hoboes. Civil War, Spanish American War and WWI vets. WWII & Korea gave us the Hells Angels. We are surely to have a new generation of disaffected Vets once our current War on Terror is finished. That's the constant of human nature that history can teach you. The Second thing I would counsel you, is to learn how to better express yourself. You'd make better sense and lend more weight to your words, if you'd scrub those four-lettered words out of your lexicon.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#24)
    by charles on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:47:40 PM EST
    This is NOT a "crisis in the making." If anyone would take the trouble to go back and read the professional literature on homelessness that began in the middle 1980's (particularly sociology and health care, but also some anthropology and public policy), you will find that veterans have been overrepresented in the numberof American homeless. The VA hel;ped some with health care, but shelters and homeless programs have done more over the last 20 years to help homeless vets than anybody else. THIS IS NOT NEW--for all of you who haven't been paying attention. Charles

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:00:49 PM EST
    B - The question is how does our learning interface with "the constants of history"? I would posit that the resignation of "some things never change" is all-too-often a cover for moral cowardice.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:07:58 PM EST
    Just taking a wild guess troll, but probably there are only a set few of categories loaded into the blog app and this was the closest one. You can put your tinfoil hat back on now. OTOH, it's probably accurate that if we have .5 million now we will have a lot more soon as the returning soldiers are having their VA bene's cut and increasing problems getting VA healthcare. There is also a much higher percentage of amps, spine/neck and mental illness in this war. And of course you will turn a blind eye to all the serious health problems they are going to have in the future due to DU exposure. I don't know the nat'l numbers, but for Wash State: More than one-third of the state’s veterans served in Vietnam, 18 percent in World War II, 14 percent in Korea and 14 percent in the Gulf War. Once again 'compassionate conservatism' shows it's true colors.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:14:27 PM EST
    jondee, The purpose of my post, was to make an observation on the inmutables of human nature, not to find a solution. The prior posts, acted as is this would be a brand new problem. As if the current number of homeless sprouted out of a vacuum; or as a direct result of the current policies of the current administration as it is thinly veiled. It is not. This is an age-old problem, that will persist so as long as we as humans keep butting heads with each others.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    et al - The Roman example was after a life time of service, and typically the land was in the area where the soldier was garrisoned. So Rome got the benefit of implanting a Roman solder (not necessarily a citzen)in an area for stability. I also find it interesting that you want to help the "vet," but not the active duty military person. Kind of hypocritical until you remember that most of this group is anti-military. Makes perfect sense. The next thing you need to do is define "vet." There is a very competitive retirement program after 20 and up to 30 years. Must a vet serve "20"? Or should they be able to carry the retirment benefits with them, and start collecting at age 62 based on years served? Of course the biggest problem for current members is family separation and pay. The separation issue can only be fixed by more people, and the "more people" can only be fixed with more pay, and better retirement. The other "benefits" are really a joke. Walmart is cheaper than the PX. Depedendent medical care, once provided on base, or from any available provider off base, now is handled through an HMO and is a true joke. kdog - Glad to know you have become a weapons systems expert. Actually, I would have never known. As for your "enough" opinion, it displays a staggering ignornace of the military, the history of war and the lives saved through better weapons. mar - If you think Iraq is like Vietnam you are in same position as kdog. kuros - Huh? Why should that bother you? Is it a "SUV" thing? Do you oppose drilling in ANWAR? (How did I know?) And how do you know what they have done? I know three families with military membees, two in Iraq, who drive SUV's. Oh the humanity of it all! jondee - You miss again. Since I would insist on an authentic qualified terrorist for mfox, I am doing nothing more than providing a service. No charge for the laughter.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#29)
    by wishful on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:28:44 PM EST
    To all the wingers: what's your collective point?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:31:25 PM EST
    I think the first cut is rather simple. Anyone whose ability to carry on a normal life which includes being employed is adversely and directly affected by their military service should be helped. For example, if the cause is long term physical effects from wounds, then they should be helped for as long as it takes even if that means supplying protheses for them for the rest of their lives.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:31:26 PM EST
    If I may, I would counsel you two things.
    no you may not.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:33:19 PM EST
    I think that homelessness is a terrible thing and I'd like to seem more money spent on it. But having said that I must say I find this 33% number to be very strange. And if you read the AP story you find the phrase "at some point." If you google the definition of homeless you find that it's around 5 nights/year. Joking aside, I spend more nights than that in airports every year so I'm wondering if they count me. -C

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:36:42 PM EST
    Soccerdad: Agreed 100%. hardLed: Happy to see that words are like balm to you soul. The first phase in resolution is rejection.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:52:25 PM EST
    Thanks for the luv

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:52:52 PM EST
    It doesn't take a "weapons expert" to realize our defense spending is lopsided towards bombs, planes, etc.; and neglects the needs of soldiers and vets. The reason...defense contractors have better lobbyists.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#37)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:56:49 PM EST
    All homeless are not created equal. Generally homeless folks fall into temporarily (homeless once but never again), episodically (homeless intermittently but for short times), and chronically (street people) homeless. The chronically homeless folks are characterized by mental health problems and substance abuse; the majority of their emergency room visits resulting in a trip to a psychiatric ward. I think these are likely the folks most are thinking about here. Helping these folks is a true challenge as they are frequently unable to use the resources available to them in any meaningful way. The HHS has a good discussion here .

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#38)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:00:15 PM EST
    hardleft- “i have attempted civility with some here, doesn’t really work, so lets keep it simple: f*ck off and die,” TL requests that we refrain from profanity in order to keep the site flowing nicely past office filters. I’ve got to wonder, with this kind of outburst and accompanied profanity, what makes your posts different from the trolling of others here? Perhaps if the site was instead talkright.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:02:23 PM EST
    pigwiggle - I tihnk one of the things you are missing about homelessness is the difficulty climbing out once you are in.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:02:32 PM EST
    mar - If you think Iraq is like Vietnam you are in same position as kdog. Jim - Actually I think America now is like America then. The same obsessions, the same mistakes, the same clumsiness when dealing with the rest of the world. The Americans were chasing a fart in Vietnam, and now they are chasing a fart in Iraq.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 03:17:11 PM EST
    The fact is many of the vet's may or may not be vet! but a hell of a-lot of real vet's are homeless. I don't think you got the 500,000 right, but i would put the figure at 200,000, but could be wrong, after all bush has attack our jobs with great zeal and the jobs being made are a joke, so we may have this year 500,000 new homeless vet's, along with one million non vet's.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 03:45:44 PM EST
    mar - I ignored your snarky remark about our military being killers because I was in a particularly good mood. That mood has now evaporated. I find your remarks disgusting. That people make such remarks about the people whose purpose is to protect you from people who would happily kill them. No amount of discussions, no amount of "understanding," no amount of empathy, nothing, would persaude them to not harm you. The only thing would be total surrender and proof that you are ready to do what they want, and you would probably find their demands and rules very uncomfortable. And insulting their jihadist terrorists would probably get you, at least, a terrible beating. What makes it even worse, is that the military operates under very strict rules of engagement. They do not just "kill people" as the terrorists do. And I think you know that, and I think you deliberately ignore it. Comparing Iraq to Vietnam is not only silly, it is totally wrong on many levels. The first level is that we are there because we have been attacked. Iraq figured in that attack, and that is recognized by a majority of the American people, demonstrating their ability to understand "nuances" far better than the Leftist elitists who love to throw that term around. The second thing is that we now a communication system - the Internet and cable - that pervents rumors and lies from being sold as the truth as was done by the MSM during Vietnam. The third level is that we are winning. Iraq did vote. Syria is starting to see the light. Lebannon is demonstrating. Egypt has called for free elections. SA is speaking of change. This is one of the most remarkable times in history. And it is being brought to you not by "the rest of the world," but by US foreign policy and the US military. Clumsy? I think not. Trying to have discussions with a snake is clumsy. Mankind was not meant to slink around on its belly. And yet you call our troops killers and speak, perhaps wishfully, of Vietnam.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 03:48:07 PM EST
    I would also like to say, this non nation has no uses for its vet's. little word about, when i was in that green machine many, many year ago,when i was a PFC my pay check was about $200.00 a month, today the guys girls get before tax is about $1200.00 per month, but our government takes back about 400.00 for food and Equipment and name it, its a form of doing the troops and telling the guys and girls that its for your country, what lies and what a non nation. by the way the V.A., Is going to be out of business with ten years for political reasons, bush and the oligarchies need you to die for big business and the formation of the new ideals; yes Aztlan the new coming thing or the new pan America,thing. remove bush before he removes us all for earth, but sadly that will never happen so just wait and hope you don't become homeless and imprisoned with the next few years.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 04:37:03 PM EST
    Most of these vets are not veterans at all. Like the "I'll work for food" crowd that the local paper investigated. The returns from begging are higher, due to the pathetic liberal instinct to assuage their guilt for not having served by offering a healthy heap of other people's money. Why not pretend to be a vet? It pays better than pretending to be a drunk. Spare me. Oh, BTW I served, six years active duty, Vietnam era, USMC. I have the DD214 to prove it. I have a job too. Funny, but there was no line in front of me at the recruiter's office for the $128.50 a month job that gave me the skills and education to become one of the "rich" - that is the top 10% of income earners...

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 04:54:50 PM EST
    jIM, peddling your usual line of self rightous nonsense again. The military in Iraq has had no regard for civilian life. Their widespread use of cluster munitions their wholesale bombing of fallujah their killing of people trying to escape Fallujah, their refusal to let the red cross in, the list goes on and on. We were not attacked by Iraq. They had nothing to do with 9/11. Why don't you go peddle your delusional nonsense somewhere else along with your false outrage. You are the definition of pathetic. And for you to complain about someone being snarky is really really funny

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:22:10 PM EST
    Most of these vets are not veterans at all.
    Proof?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#48)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:26:05 PM EST
    PPJ - Yes, we were attacked, JUST NOT BY IRAQ. I know you know better and are you're just trolling, but seriously, even GWB doesn't claim Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. It has been so throughly debunked so many times that you really should just let that go. But you know that, you are just trying to shift the discussion to a tangent instead of dealing with 1/2 million homeless vets. If you truly supported the troops, you'd be doing everything possible to bring them home, like us patriots are. You'd also have voted for a man who would have increased their armor and didn't want to cut vet benefits. So PPJ, go work at a local homeless shelter and talk to the folks there and see for yourself how many are vets. With your personal experience you should be able to suss out the imposters. We have had a terrible history in this country of breaking our promises to our vets (e.g. MacArthur attacking wwI vets trying to get their promised bene's; civil war vets etc.), and you continue this travesty by trying to hijack a thread. hardleft - every stupid debating trick is used often on this site, but out of respect for our hosts' wishes we just don't reply in FO&D fashion. I too wish it was more civil, but you make comments to the debaters you have, not the ones you wish you had;-) Think of your local city council, there's ignorance, dishonesty, blind faith, agendas and all the rest, but rarely does someone use obscenities (at least more than once.) And if you need to use an obscenity, there are SFW ways of getting your point across. I'm just sayin' [hat tip to tex]

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:27:11 PM EST
    Here's something potentially worse.
    "Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in the first Gulf War, 11,000 are now dead! By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical Disability. This astounding number of 'Disabled Vets' means that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have some form of permanent medical problems!" The disability rate for the wars of the last century was 5 percent; it was higher, 10 percent, in Viet Nam.
    Link

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#50)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:43:58 PM EST
    Careful soccerdad- Don't mention the side effects of depleted uranium to the trolls here, or you'll hear ranting about all the damn liberal nuclear physicists and doctors out there. However, if this is true I'd be very curious to see how many of these were related to 325,000 on PMD can be related to DU weapons. I suspect some, but most from other factors (innoculations, exposure to burning petrochemicals from 100+ oil wells, etc.) I'm also wondering what's happened with the cancer rate in Northern S.A., Kuwait, and Southern Iraq since the end of gulf war one. Anyone out there already look at this and can save me some time?

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#51)
    by wishful on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 06:14:03 PM EST
    Didn't those in power pretend that there was no such thing as Gulf War Syndrome from Gulf War I for quite some time? And didn't they also say that Agent Orange had no effects on our soldiers? Those tax cuts for the rich come at some pretty high prices, to other people. Can't wait to see the main travesty visited on the supported troops from the current war.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 06:43:28 PM EST
    SD - Do you have a credible link? Plus, this is a mortality rate of 2% over 13`years, which doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me. As to the PTSD, etc., it has happened in all wars, but increased in Korea, Vietnam and GWI. Perhaps the lack of support from the country, in many cases the actual negaive attacks, has something to do with it. Sailor - Americans understand that "Iraq" didn't attack, but was involved. That was my comment, that Americans understand the nuances so haughtly tossed around, and approve of a pre-emptive strategy. And having served my time, in the military, I will let you serve the country by helping out in the shelters. Seeing as how you will be safe, not be poorly paid or particularly uncomfortable, it seems the least you can do for your country.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#53)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 07:50:19 PM EST
    wishful- Indeed they did. A young friend of mine is missing a leg, and spent most of his life in and out of hospitals. His father's exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam was a large factor in his being born with Spinal Bifida. That case took years too. The way most administrations (left and right) have tried to save a buck by cutting corners with vet benefits has always galled me. The current one is the most hypocritical in quite a while IMO.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 07:57:58 PM EST
    There have been reports of increased cancer rates and birth defects in Iraq, The links I have are on my other computer. My recollection is that this is quite controversial. The US has put a lot of pressure on the world health orgranization not to release their data. Although the US maintains that depleated Uranium is not a problem, the precautions for the military in theater to deal with it when they know its present is extensive. The problem as I see it is that there may be multiple problems of which DU is but one. The US, the military, and the UN because many of the same munitions have been used elsewhere are not motivated to tell the truth. There is a long history of deception with similar issues going back to at least Vietnam. What I remember about the DU is that it may be the soldiers who come in direct contact with the dust off, say a tank that has fired a number of the munitions that are at most risk. So whats the truth. We may never know. This is an admin that doesn't count the wounded accurately, they sure as hell aren't going to admit to problems with DU.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#55)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:36:42 PM EST
    Thanks soccerdad. It's a starting point.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:25:37 PM EST
    PPJ, at 4.45 PM - 1. My remark about them being killers was not snarky; I just stated a fact. It's their job, after all, and they spend those weeks in boot camp exactly to erase their natural inhibitions to kill. 2. I didn't compare Vietnam to Iraq. I compared the US then with the US now. Same country. 3. "Awkward" is maybe a better word than "clumsy". (And it has a long history in American foreign policy, indeed. The generation of 1776 had exactly the same problem: how should a nation, born out of exceptionalism and moral virtue, possible deal with the non-exceptional world? Hence the typical American pending between isolationism and crusade.)

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:04:47 PM EST
    Another crisis!!!!! No problem, mate! Just raise taxes. Same as with the SS "crisis". It's not a crisis if you can raise taxes on those WHO PAY INCOME TAXES. The only problem is when you find your own taxes being raised. Since almost half of Americans pay ZERO income taxes now, they are quick to demand taxes be raised on the OTHER HALF. Watch out. Soon it will be you kids! Bwahahahahahahahahahaaa! Remember I told you so!

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:01:27 AM EST
    "Military Men Are Dumb, Stupid Animals" Henry Kissinger as quoted in Final Days by Woodward and Bernstein This pretty much sums the additude of people like Kissinger, Rumsfeld, Perle et al. The military are just so many pieces to move around on some giant geopolitcal game board to be discarded when they break.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:43:30 AM EST
    mar - Glad to see you are trying to say what you thought you said. I repeat. The military is trained to fight, and to kill, but only as directed, under defined rules of engagement. When you call a group "Killers," as you did, and then follow up with "and if killers can't adapt to their society it proves the society at large still is pretty sane," you are strongly implying that the military is not. That is a very, very, very negative, snarky comment and pretty well defines your attitude towards the military. And their weeks in bootcamp are spent learning how to work as a group, not to overcome their inhibitions. Your lack of knowledge is astounding, but typical. And the US is not the same now as it was during Vitenam, so your comparsion was, and is, off target. I again note the tremendous changes brought to us by the Internet, and how that is keeping the MSM and the far Left straight. Anyway you look at it, the improvements in the ME have been brought to you by the US and a small group of nations such as England, Poland, Australia, Italy, Spain (and others).

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:10:20 AM EST
    Anyone that served will certainly remember this: A yellow bird, with a yellow bill, was perched upon my window sill. I lured him in with a piece of bread and then i smashed its f*cking head. That was a cadence we marched to and ran to and marched to and ran to. We train people to kill, and remove the thought from it as war is hell and you must kill to survive. You are programmed in the military to be desensitized although no amount of training can ready someone for the actual taking of human life. Kdog, no judgement taken by your post, my post was aimed at previous posts that say we "owe" vets something as it is a common crying call. War time vets that serve under fire are owed something by our government, they went through hell and saw atrocities that are beyond my comprehension, but "vets" loosely used are "owed" zippo.......

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#61)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:46:13 AM EST
    “The US has put a lot of pressure on the world health orgranization not to release their data.” There has been a great deal of research concerning uranium mining (non-enriched, non-depleted, NEND) and uranium enrichment with respect to the heath of the folks participating; WHO and others. The WHO has released a significant amount of data on exposure to NEND uranium, EU, and DU as well as a nice summary of the pertinent scientific literature. “Don't mention the side effects of depleted uranium to the trolls here, or you'll hear ranting about all the damn liberal nuclear physicists and doctors out there.” One needs only google depleted uranium to see the trolling; the physicists and physicians are far and few.

    Re: More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Yea (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:46:20 AM EST
    It is a sad situation that we have so many homeless vets. What is even worse is the way our vets are treated by our "child support" bureacracy. Check out this article by Phillis Schlafly http://www.townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/ps20050228.shtml Our government seems bound and determined to destroy the family unit, by any means possible. A man who is a prisoner of war should not be thrown in jail upon returning home for non-payment of child support.

    More than 500,000 Vets to be Homeless This Year | 60 comments (60 topical)