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ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:30:06 AM EST
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Human Rights First and the ACLU have filed suit in federal court against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld over U.S. torture policies.

The lawsuit was filed in federal court in Illinois on behalf of eight men who were subject to torture and abuse at the hands of U.S. forces under Secretary Rumsfeld's command. The groups charged Secretary Rumsfeld with violations of the U.S. Constitution and international law prohibiting torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment.

The complaint is here. More about the suit is available here.

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    ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies | 50 comments (50 topical)
    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:00:35 PM EST
    And yet another useless failure of a lawsuit from the wonderful people at the A f@#$%&* CLU. Honestly, if you can't find something better to do with your time.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:13:23 PM EST
    If Congress won't do it, someone needs to. It is a said state of affairs when the Secretary of Defense admits publicly on camera to a warcrime (hiding detainees from the ICRC) and there are no repurcussions, not even a promise that it will never happen again.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:37:46 PM EST
    I've always found Bush's pronunciation of "Nucular" torture. Is this part of the suit?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:46:33 PM EST
    Make a donation to the ACLU!

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:47:24 PM EST
    Dagma, Simple answer to this problem. Don't torture people. It's against the law no matter where it happens. That's why they call it a crime against humanity.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:08:48 PM EST
    You're a sick, evil man Dagma. Stopping torture and the breaking of international law is a waste of time? You would have been right at home in 1940's Germany.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:10:03 PM EST
    Anyone that doesn't have sand for brains knows this lawsuit isn't going anywhere!!! Meritless to the max! It'll go as far as "Rumsfeld's gonna be arrestec in Germany for war crimes!!" went - NOWHERE!

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#9)
    by ras on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:26:01 PM EST
    The ACLU did launch a similar suit against Kofi Annan and the UN, right, over Rwanda? But I'm having trouble finding a copy. You see, instead of a handful of torture cases performed by lower-level soldiers acting on their own, Rwanda was a confirmed half a million innocents slaughtered, with the full knowledge and complicity of the Kofi & the UN. The facts aren’t even in dispute. Those truly interested in justice will, of course, want to see the Rwanda matter given priority. So would any of you have a link to that other suit? For some reason, I can’t seem to find one anywhere.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:27:34 PM EST
    However, I noticed that Rumsfeld changed his travel plans so that he avoided Germany....afraid he might get arrested?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:08:25 PM EST
    If those terrorist arn't having their heads slowly sawed off on the internet, then they're not being abused.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#12)
    by bad Jim on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:34:49 PM EST
    Some people seem to be having trouble with the concept of the presumption of innocence. The people allegedly being tortured have not been convicted of any crime, and in most cases there is little or no evidence of any links to terrorism.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:40:22 PM EST
    Bravo, ras. If the ACLU wants to be credible in my opinion, they need to be addressing civil liberties across the board, not just to support a particular agenda. Where's the ACLU if my kid wants to wear a T-shirt with a religious theme to school? The ACLU seems to take the tack that government tolerance of something religious on its property constitutes indorsement -- that's not what the Constitution says. Where's the ACLU in support of the 2nd Amendment? I know you will all freak over this and I don't want to change the subject, but it's in the Bill of Rights. If they want to argue constitutional rights, fine -- just argue all of them.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:43:50 PM EST
    The red blooded american types seem have little concern about the possibility of blood on their hands and little familiarity with the concepts of due process and presumption of innocence. But they can wave the flag. Whooo hooo!

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:46:22 PM EST
    trolls, the ACLU has defended David Duke and Rush Limbaugh, the antidefamation league and the nazi party. IOW, they defend the constitution. Why do you hate the constitution?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:49:25 PM EST
    Where's the ACLU if my kid wants to wear a T-shirt with a religious theme to school? Call them up, they might take the case. I know they took a case of a school that banned children from wearing crosses and other religious symbols to school.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:14:59 PM EST
    Well, as far as this lawsuit goes, it's pretty much pointless. We can go through all kinds of public agonizing over this and feed the propaganda against us. We can put an end to pig piles, standing people on boxes, barking dogs, and women interrogators. When all is said and done, people like the ACLU will shackle the military and CIA so thoroughly that it all will stop. And you know what will happen? We'll capture prisoners, turn them over to the Afghans or Iraqis, and ask them to let us know if the prisoner says anything useful. The blood won't be on our hands, which no doubt will make people like CA very happy. The US military is a far better alternative than what those prisoners will face otherwise.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#18)
    by bad Jim on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 12:13:37 AM EST
    It's official. The rightists are actually in favor of torturing prisoners, whatever their provenance. Worse is that they think that this is the American way.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 12:44:51 AM EST
    Did I say that? I don't think so. I abhor torture, which is why I endorse the US putting an end to jokers like Saddam and the Taliban. But I'm also not so naiive to believe that if you end American torture you end torture. We need to rein our people in, that much is true. But the people we're dealing with won't spill the company secrets if you say "pretty please" and give them a piece of chocolate. Pulling arms out of sockets? No. But you won't get anything by putting them in a motel with cable TV and high speed internet. If we OVERreact and throw out the baby with the bathwater, then we won't be able to act at all. The baby here is that we need to have humane ways of putting pressure on people. I guarantee you that those prisoners would rather face interrogation from Americans rather than Iraqis or Afghanis. That's a point we can capitalize on. We need to clean up our act, not end it. If we captured a top Zarqawi aide tomorrow, do you honestly think the Iraqis wouldn't want to interrogate him? Those guys are killing far more Iraqis than Americans. You're naiive if you think the US controls everything in the world, to include what other nations do with their citizens. War is a brutal, ugly, thing -- which is why those who deal with it are its biggest opponents.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#20)
    by bad Jim on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 01:14:55 AM EST
    It's good to hear that everyone's on board with the ACLU's indefatigable defense of traditional American values. I'm glad that we're solidly behind our solemn promise to adhere to the Geneva Conventions as well. Where would the world be if the conduct of the United States was generally considered shameful?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 01:31:25 AM EST
    I don't know if I'd go so far as to praise the ACLU. I think that there's potential it could go too far. But the unwritten story here is that the uproar ought to tell you something. The world has a high opinion of the US, and this is a story because it's so out of the norm. This happens in other countries to a far greater extent and nobody notices. But for the US to do it -- it's like a preacher going to a strip bar. I don't believe the world is really shaken at the concept of torture. If they did, they'd take action against people like Saddam instead of looking the other way. What has them shaken is the thought of the US doing it.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#22)
    by Walter on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:51:33 AM EST
    Go with something that works? In your haste to condemn Saddam for his actions against the Iraqi people and using his actions for justification for his beening overthrown, arn't you in effect condemning the US for the same actions? I would think for the sake of consistancy you would have to say either that it was wrong for Saddam and the US military to engage in torture and murder or it was OK for both to engage in criminal acts against the Iraqi people.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#23)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:13:24 AM EST
    “Where's the ACLU in support of the 2nd Amendment?” The ACLU supports their interpretation of the 2nd, a very restrictive interpretation. In essence, they maintain that the 2nd is a collective right held by the states apportioned only to a militia, a bold misinterpretation of what is simply the justification [A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state]. They just got it wrong; here’s to hoping they sort it out soon.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:11:39 AM EST
    et al - Doesn't the ACLU have something better to do? You know, like suing some school district for mentioning God, or something like that. Walter - The only people who really care about "consistentancy" are those who are on the losing side of the argument. et al - Define torture.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:34:04 AM EST
    ppj, Here. Is this a good enough definition for you? Notice too, in the post, it's not just about torture. It's also regarding abuse while these men were prisoners. While all torture is abuse, not all abuse is torture. And while were at it. Here is another link about the how torture is not very effective or reliable.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:43:19 AM EST
    To even compare what Saddam was documented doing to what the US has been accused of, shows exactly who you liberals are. And make no mistake about it, the ACLU is not defending anyones rights with this lawsuit, they are doing nothing more than attempting again to give this administration a black eye.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:55:11 AM EST
    You liberals also might want to consider exactly how all this "torture" talk is going to effect the soldiers that you claim to support. A whole hell of alot more of them will die if you continue with your conspiracy theories.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:55:30 AM EST
    Can you show me where someone has compared what Saddam has done with what the US is being charged with? I see people condeming torture. No comparisons. Noone saying how we are just as bad as Saddam. Just that torture should not be done by ANYONE.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Oh leave poor PPJ alone. He was just throwing some bait out for a newbie. /sarcasm We've been through this multiple times and every time some one posts with what appears to be a new name PPJ starts his fishing expedition. Remember PPJ is against torture, he just hasn't seen anything yet that qualifies as torture.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 02:54:15 PM EST
    Hey, ahh, Steve, why don't you take a look at "Walter at 6:51 AM" yeah, yeah, thats it. That post that would bite ya if it was a snake.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:51:35 PM EST
    Objection, Ricky, DA, et. al. You are assuming facts not in evidence. Just because the ACLU SAYS it stands for something, does not indicate that it EFFECTIVELY stands for that thing. You must learn to judge the ACLU by what they DO, not by what they SAY they do.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:31:27 PM EST
    Yeah PPJ's dead-set against it - btw,prove it dosnt work.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#35)
    by Walter on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:08:22 PM EST
    Great post Jim, there's no arguing with the logic in that statement. Define torture? Something tells me that you and Saddam are of one mind on that line of defense. Dagma, do you think you could torture someone?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:12:57 PM EST
    Yes indeed. Ole PPJ, the only person on the blog who has commented that the GC and ICAT should be upgraded to cover the type of war we are now fighting. This just proves that you folks don't read before commenting. Something I have suspected for sometimes. (How is that for the understand of the day?) Steve A. - Lovely link, so full of qualifiers and hedgers. I call'em, "yesbuts."

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:33:31 PM EST
    Then why hasn't the Bush Administration been upfront and started talking about your precious 'need to update' the GC or the ICAT? I didn't know that talking about such a need entails starting with at square one with 'what is torture?". PPJ: I'll give you a red herring to stock your pond with: Torture is trying to make sense of your postings.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:46:11 PM EST
    How about this for a definition of torture: "Watching people spew out factless emotionalism based on unrealistic utopian fantasies in an effort to divide their nation and provide moral support to their enemies."

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:09:58 PM EST
    Trueblue - admitting it is the first step. Cograts on your progress

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:33:00 PM EST
    Soc, trueblue produced a description. It is your crowd which must make the admission, of providing moral support to the enemy; remember your recent posts about OBL causing the 9/11 terrorist attacks "because of conditiond in the ME". Too bad no congrats; progress has been excruciatingly slow.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#41)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:43:56 PM EST
    Ace, don't you ever get tired of distortions and lies. probably not. Those with no integrity or intellectual honesty seldom do. I said that OBL attacked us because of our policies in the ME. I also called the attacks despicable. Of course you forgot that part didn't you. Accusing me of giving moral support to the enemy is the most despicable lie you have told here. You are lying scum. And as usual when the argument is not going your way, you resort to character assassination. But what else should I expect from the likes of you. Truly pathetic.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 08:57:33 PM EST
    Truth hurts, don't it, Soc? Don't get me started on OBL -- you're sadly deluded if you think it's about US policies. It's about establishing a caliphate and making Shari'a the sole rule throughout the Muslim world. The US is a target he's using to attempt to unify the ME toward his agenda. But don't take my word for it. Read what Sayyid Qutb published in "Milestones" in 1957 -- the philosophical underpinnings of OBL, Zarqawi, and Zawahiri. Read what OBL has himself said in his various rantings. It's about eliminating democracy and secular government because, in their belief, it's offensive to God. As far as moral support goes, I suggest you read a transcript of the tape OBL released on 29 October -- it sounds like he got it off of MoveOn.org. The more you bash the US and ignore what the atrocities of the Islamists, the more ammunition they have. This war isn't about guns and bullets -- it operates at a strategic level through the media and public opinion in an attempt to drive politics. And oh, by the way, Soc -- ideas carry more weight than calling people liars and other vile names. You've got to come up with something better to disprove an idea.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:02:26 PM EST
    And by the way, Soc, stating an opinion about what I think you're doing and what the implications of your actions are isn't a lie -- it's an opinion. You can't counter opinions by simply hurling labels.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 02:12:58 AM EST
    trueblue - wtf are you talking about.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 03:34:58 AM EST
    Soc: At the risk of getting further off topic, I'll spell it out. OBL's goal is to replace secular governments with theocracies based solely on Islamic law (Shari'a). We're talking about a caliphate -- a unified Arab world with Islam as its only law. He's said it himself. Militant Islam finds its core in a guy named Sayyid Qutb, who in 1957 postulated that: 1) The only law is Allah's law; 2) Governments based on democracy will eventually create laws based on man's wishes, and not Allah's law; 3) Democratic governments are therefore in opposition to Allah and must be eradicated; and 4) Muslim leaders who support democratic principles oppose Allah, are therefore no longer Muslim, and may be targeted as infidels for assassination. OBL's tape on 29 Oct complained about Jeb Bush, election fraud in Florida, war for corporate profit, Halliburton, Bush reading during 9/11, and WMD inspections through the UN. Where do you think he got the idea that these were critical issues? Has it occurred to you that if Kerry was elected he'd be crowing about the level of American sympathy for his cause? And finally, when I say exploiting the scandal for political gain feeds the enemy's ideological stance and strengthens their resolve, that's an opinion, not a LIE. Perhaps you would believe that Tokyo Rose, Lord Haw Haw, and Hanoi Jane were merely voicing opposition. But I would counter that they their efforts went beyond attempts to change America internally and actually fed the enemy. I'm not accusing you of being an enemy propagandist. But I'm saying that we need to keep the torture business in perspective and unify to eradicate it, rather than attack each other and fill OBL with glee.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:10:26 AM EST
    Where do you think he got the idea that these were critical issues?
    Gee maybe if people hadn't created the problems in the first place we would have no issues. So you, as a member of the part of responsiblity, are basicaly saying Bush can do anything leagal, illegal, immoral and we shouldn't complain because acordingto you it gives comfort to the enemy. Nice try. A tad hypocritical don't you think. I know how about eliminating the issues at the source, no issues - no fodder for the enemy what do you think?
    Has it occurred to you that if Kerry was elected he'd be crowing about the level of American sympathy for his cause?
    No because Kerry would not have withdrawn and would not have changed the mission, which is why I had to hold my nose to vote for him. He's even backing all the requested budgets.
    And finally, when I say exploiting the scandal for political gain feeds the enemy's ideological stance and strengthens their resolve,
    Its blame the messenger. I think the fact that we are occupying the country and killing civilians gives them all the resolve they need.
    But I'm saying that we need to keep the torture business in perspective and unify to eradicate it,
    Do you want to eradicate torture or the business of talking about it? If its the former, then lets hear you explicitly denounce the policy and all those who developed it. BTW whwere did I say on this thread that you lied? Another strawman or just whining?

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#47)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:46:40 AM EST
    “No because Kerry would not have withdrawn and would not have changed the mission, which is why I had to hold my nose to vote for him. He's even backing all the requested budgets.” And voted for the use of force act; lets not forget. I’ll say it again; vote for $hit and you get served $hit at your own request, vote your conscience and you may get served $hit, but at least you didn’t ask for it. I peg you more as a Cobb-LaMarche type, SD.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:49:01 AM EST
    SD writes - "I think the fact that we are occupying the country and killing civilians gives them all the resolve they need." So they killed 115 of their fellow citizens, and hundreds more, with car bombs. SD, you have to be smarter than to make that argument. BHAW

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:54:00 AM EST
    7:43 PM "Accusing me of giving me moral support to the enemy is the most despicable lie you have told here." As far as torture goes, I've already denounced it. I've said those responsible should have the law thrown at them. However, I've read the Taguba report, and it's pretty damning. That investigation would not have been generated if the behaviors in it had been in accordance with National Command Authority's will. There's been a lot of discussion about senior memos, but clearly the Army between Rumsfeld and and Abu Ghraib was not told to allow that kind of behavior. If they were, they would not have opened an investigation as soon as it got wind of the abuse (and well before the story broke). The fact that it was opened and the condemnation of the report demonstrates that the Army chain of command above Abu Ghraib believed the abuses alleged were criminal matters. You can't claim that was all a cover up, either, because the investigation opened more than three months before the issue became known outside military channels. So how do I think it should be handled without aiding the enemy? Condemn torture loudly and across the board. Vigorously pursue those at Abu Ghraib that perpetrated it. The Taguba report says it all -- from BG Karpinski on down the command and control was pathetic. We can do that in a unified, non-partisan way. Soldiers commit crimes sometimes. They're a cross-section of society and any population has its share of criminals. But we we hold those soldiers accountable for the crimes they commit. Nobody blamed Bush for assaults, thefts, etc that soldiers have committed. This is a crime committed by poorly led soldiers who forgot everything they've been taught about the Law of Armed Conflict and humane treatment of prisoners.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:59:06 AM EST
    DA - Not my job to answer for the Bush Administration. But why haven't you called for changes? I don't remember any support from you, SD, CA, mfox, etc. Could it be that you would rather have another reason to complain? jondee - Yes, prove it doesn't work. You will then have three reasons: Immoral, illegal and it doesn't work. The third, as I have posted numerous times, is important because it demonstrates there is no reward. With no reward, people are less likely to take the risk. jondee, since you had read the above on numerous other occassions, I must conclude you have the world's worst memory, or just wanted to issue an untruthful attack.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:12:02 AM EST
    Good to see the rightwingers revealing their true colors here, especially old "trueblue": We're fine with torture, we just don't want to talk about it, and we'll stifle anyone who does. Scumbags.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:25:22 AM EST
    Huh, Locutor? I've probably condemned torture more and talked about it more than anyone on this thread. Read what you see, not what you want to see. I'm not stifling anyone, either -- just saying to go after the perps that did it. I would never advocate shutting anyone down by force. I'm arguing on behalf of a course of action people may freely choose, and I wish that they would. But stifle? Not me. Oh, and I'll have to add "scumbag" to the list of civil terms used in political discourse. Nobody's called me that yet. I wish a pleasant day to you as well.

    Re: ACLU Sues Rumsfeld Over Torture Policies (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:56:51 AM EST
    PPJ -
    So they killed 115 of their fellow citizens, and hundreds more, with car bombs
    . PPJ I know you are ignorant and, worse, don't care but the insurgency is, at this point in time, primarily the Sunnis vs the US and anyone it perceives as cooperating with the US including the police, army recruits, government members, etc. Those have been their primary targets. Hey, its too bad you cant trot out those old Giap quotes you used to love so much. With regards to the GC etc, this is another one of your red herrings. You are trying to establish justification for loopholes and thereby indirectly let Bush and his gang off the hook for looking for loopholes. However, I fel the history and the language of the the GC and other treaties makes it very clear that torture is unacceptable period. Because a group shows up that you can't neatly pigeonhole doesn't negate the motivation and intent of the GC. Its a question of being humane and having respect for the human race. The Bush administration spent a lot of effort trying to find quasiloopholes and other interpretations to fit their agenda. They have made it abundently clear that that treaties or even the courts have no influence on them So the issue of whether the GC and other treaties need fine tuning is a minor one. The issue of getting the BHush admin to obey the law and the courts is the bigger issue. I know that being a torture apologist you don't care about this. Oh I forgot you're against torture - tell us another fairy tale why don't you

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