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U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill Guard

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 12:53:38 PM EST
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Iraq insurgents freed Italian hostage and journalist Giuliana Sgrena yesterday. Today, in mistaken attack, U.S. troops fired on her car, wounding her and killing a security agent. Ms. Sgrena is expected to recover.

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    U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill Guard | 99 comments (99 topical)
    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 01:12:37 PM EST
    FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH! YEAH!

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 01:31:17 PM EST
    rAAB, You are confusing the great Strategic Advances made on this Global War on Terror, with small scale Tactical mistakes.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#3)
    by DonS on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 01:38:09 PM EST
    Boquisucio, you are confusing a tragedy with technical explanation. In any case, your assumption is a mere opinion that pales in the light of human death.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:08:29 PM EST
    A shame and a terrible tragedy.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:10:46 PM EST
    DonS, You stick to your trees; I´ll stick to my forest

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#6)
    by DonS on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:14:37 PM EST
    Boquisucio, I'll stick to apparent facts, you can stick to wishful thinking, rose colored glasses and the like

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:19:47 PM EST
    So Eason Jordan was right. It's just that his timing was off.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:21:10 PM EST
    DonS, Ah, big picture facts (my forest, you know). Taliban Down - Saddam in the Pokey - Qadaffi Folded - Lebanese Baathist run for the hills as Syria shake in its boots & withdrawing from Lebanon. Should I go on, for I'm just warming up.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#9)
    by DonS on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:30:49 PM EST
    Bos, your forest, my trees or vice versa. I doubt we could ever agree. I say death is horrible in this manner, you say wimpy lefty. I say, well , it can't be said here, but I consider myself a realist and still find little to cheer about.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:39:30 PM EST
    Sgrena works for a far-left Italian newspaper. But she wasn't targeted. Wasn't.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#11)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:44:38 PM EST
    Me, above.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    March 4, From the accounts, the US Armored Vehicle only saw a speeding vehicle dashing towards them. Though tragic, the soldier in the ground had but a few seconds to decide whether the Car speeding was a Vehicle Borne IED or not. It is irresponsible of us to second guess the boots on the ground.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:54:06 PM EST
    No, the Italian journalist has nothing on Centcom and the mercs. It is irresponsible to put boots on the ground in the occupation of a disarmed country for profit. Qadaffi folded, eh? That's why he went to Europe and threatened to blow up a bomb if things don't go well with his economic hopes. The rest of us haven't forgiven him for shooting down a US airliner...just funny that way. Taliban down? You are dreaming. Taliban warlords still in charge. As for our ally Pakistan, gave nuclear secrets to both NK and Iran. Wow, that dictator Musharaff is really our pal. Bos, you are not a very good liar.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 02:57:45 PM EST
    How about a little perspective? According to the CNN report on this incident, the car Ms. Sgrena was traveling in ignored warnings to stop and attempted to run the check point. U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others." So okay, it's 9:00 PM, meaning it's dark. A car approaches a check point at high speed and ignores multiple attempts to slow it down, including several warning shots fired in front of the car. And let us not forget, this is the land of the car bomb, as shown earlier this week to great effect. It's a shame it happened, but the fault lies with the guy behind the wheel and whoever made the decision to not stop when the car was ordered to stop. It's a shame someone died, and it's a shame this lady was injured, but it's her own damn fault. She should have told her driver to stop immediately when they fired warning shots in front of the car.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:05:02 PM EST
    but the fault lies with the guy behind the wheel and whoever made the decision to not stop when the car was ordered to stop Does it? Or maybe this alludes to the fact that occupation does not work, has not worked anywhere in the past and creates incidents such as this one where everyone is presumed an enemy until proven friendly. I dont blame the soldiers I blame the war.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:12:01 PM EST
    GregZ, Blame the war all you like. Whether we should or should not be in Iraq is a very different matter from whether or not one should attempt to run through an armed checkpoint at speed when one is fired upon and told to stop.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:13:11 PM EST
    My name is Cliff and I'm the stupidest man I know and I vote Republican. -C

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:14:42 PM EST
    Probably an unfortunate event, nothing remarkable in the chaos that Iraq is at the moment - how many of these things happen every day and are not reported? Still, the Italians will be delighted at the special relationship they enjoy with the US. Not fair, but that's the way they'll see it. OTOH, Bushco have created this situation, so the blame that falls on the US is in a way deserved.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:22:54 PM EST
    Sgrena was abducted by gunmen who blocked her car. So it's dark and there are men on the road firing guns, and the Italian agent is supposed to stop the car for them. ...

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:24:12 PM EST
    Murdering journalists has been a special hobby of Centcom. This is nothing new, but the scale of it is. One of my best friends was an Army information officer during Bosnia. He was threatened with death by US troops REPEATEDLY, and he was in uniform! We have no reliable information (CNN is certainly not) about what happened. But check out that the so-called insurgents freed the journalist. Wonder why they would do that?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:29:54 PM EST
    "My name is Cliff and I'm the stupidest man I know . . . " Oh, I don't think so Cliff, just a run of the mill egomaniac who likes to have attention all the time

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:32:41 PM EST
    PauliLooLoo, Let's desentagle your half truths with liberal sprinklings of delusions. 1. No, the Italian journalist has nothing on Centcom and the mercs. What is the intended purpose of that comment? All our soldiers on the ground saw was an unresponsive high speeding civilian vehicle hurtling towards them. Our soldiers had to make split decision on the spot, or else risk being blown up by a Vehicle Born IED. Tragically, they were wrong. What does Central Command and Mercenaries have to do with this incident? Or are you implying that the soldiers wearing our uniform are mercenaries - You are treading in thin ice. 2. Qadaffi folded That crazy duck, is a loose cannon, and I wouldn't trust him one bit. However, in regards to his Nuclear ambitions, he is as castrated as a capon. As such, he is no longer a threat to our Strategic objectives. 3. Taliban down? I must have been asleep for the past three years, and don't recall that we kicked the Taliban out in less than three weeks worth of effort, with only 200 men on the ground. Last I checked, there is a democratically elected government in Kabul. What warlord runs Kabul? or are you calling Karzai a warlord? 4. On Pakistan: The extremist elements in Pakistani society, are our enemies. As such will be dealt in due time. We could yank the rug out of Musharaf tomorrow. But if we do so, Pakistan will go the way of Iran. Have you already forgotten what happened to the Shah when our high-moralled President threw him to the wolves? The resulting vacuum gave us 25 years of terror throughout the Middle East. Though not ideal, at least Musharaf, is keeping the crazy Wahabs in the Pre-Wash Cycle.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:37:44 PM EST
    Bos, you are not a very good liar.
    but he does stay the course and just keep plugging away, troll of the 2d order.
    My name is Cliff and I'm the stupidest man I know and I vote Republican.
    finally some truth from you.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:51:42 PM EST
    DonS - You wouldn't know the difference between tactical and bactial. Accidents happen. Paul In LA - I don't believe your friend. I don't believe you. GregZ - Gee, that sure is nice of you. Next thing I know you'll be telling us how you support the troops but hate the war. As if the two weren't the same. It's yoyo time again. Jake H - Tough choice for both the driver and the troops. Sh*t happens. David W - No, he was wrong and knew he was wrong. You don't quit jobs paying that kind of money unless you are really nailed. And he was. But you keep on thinking we shoot journalists. It'll keep you occupied and out of the way of the adults. Quaker - Just can't pass a chance to drop a snarky comment on the troops, can you.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 04:04:31 PM EST
    Insane but normal in war. And what was that about freedom?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    too many smelly trolls here

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#28)
    by DonS on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    "You wouldn't know the difference between tactical and bactial. " Boo hoo. I wesemble that. Mean ol PPJ hurt my wittle feelwings.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 04:53:13 PM EST
    ""Have you already forgotten what happened to the Shah when our high-moralled President threw him to the wolves?" Misread that. The CIA, in reportedly its first action against a foreign ruler, deposed the democratically-elected president of Iran, and reinstalled the shah. After that, the shah was sold down the river by the same US conspirators. The legally-elected gov't of Haiti was just overthrown by Bush, the CIA, and his merc companies. A bloodbath has resulted, and thousands of people have died. More of the same work of Bush, the CIA, and his merc companies. Me, I like a Constitutional government, and with Eisenhower, I abhor the actions of the CIA (et al) around the world in violation of our values, and our Declaration of Independence.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    Been cruising left-leaning blogs and two things are striking: 1- The assumption (before details have come out) that US troops did this deliberately or wrecklessly. 2- The way liberals relish any negative news from Iraq. kinda sad...

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 05:56:52 PM EST
    GregZ "Or maybe this alludes to the fact that occupation does not work, has not worked anywhere in the past..." Well...except for Germany, France. and much of Western Europe. And you can add to the list Japan and the Philippines. Your lack of understanding history is astounding! But on second thought, you're blinded by those "partisan goggles" firmly afixed to the bridge of your nose.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#33)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 06:02:28 PM EST
    It IS early to tell what happened, but the reason people jump on this is because we have to try to sort it out before the spinners and damage control experts get to the media first. After that, it's either buried ro distorted so badly that the sheeple think she deserved it.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 06:43:34 PM EST
    I'd say I'm honored that the chromosonally challenged are making fun of me, but I just don't give a hoot. Has anyone here ever driven in Italy? Anyway, quite a tragedy, but hardly something that reasonable people would make into a symbol. Oops, scratch that last. -C

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#35)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:56:35 PM EST
    "Quaker - Just can't pass a chance to drop a snarky comment on the troops, can you." Try again, PPJ. Not on the troops. On all the loudmouths who screamed for Eason Jordan's head when he dared suggest such things might happen. Whatever happened to all those people?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:07:07 PM EST
    Eason Jordan has a history of being associated with attacks on US military. You really need a better hero.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:10:54 PM EST
    The US military deserves a whole range of 'attacks.' They have commited a series of war crimes over the last several decades, and some STUNNING failures, like 911. Honest, patriotic persons can 'attack' the military without attacking the troops. As for what happened in Iraq, Centcom has LIED, LIED, LIED, from the very start, following your faithless leader in his calumny. Zinni, who said he observed gross dereliction of duty at the Pentagon under Bush, has been proven right about the number of troops needed for this adventure. Since he was a general, his attack on those in the military who betrayed their uniforms, and his statement on the number of troops needed, for which he was called a traitor by you all, neither of those things could be because he's anti-military or anti-American. Nor is it likely that Daschle is a traitor. But you all just dish it out, and then, oh my, pull up your pantaloons when you have to cross a puddle of the blood spilled by your favorite liars. Oh, dear, Charlotte. Aka Jim.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#38)
    by bad Jim on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:31:48 PM EST
    Eason Jordan has a history of being associated with attacks on US military. It appears that the US military is developing a history of attacks upon journalists.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#39)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:26:24 PM EST
    Not targeting journalists. Not.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:42:01 PM EST
    Bush= foreign policy genius. Early 21st century democrats= party that would leave multiple enslaved populations enslaved. The modern day left wing is a black mark in American political history, one which we will all look back on in shame and disgust. You are no different that than those opposed the freedom of the slaves. Shame on you American left wing. Shame.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:09:06 AM EST
    Paul: I tell you what -- let's put you in a country where car bombs are the preferred weapon of an enemy that wants to kill you. Perhaps you've seen the aftermath of some of those bombs, or known some of the victims. Now you're out there on a well-marked checkpoint. You know that checkpoint protocol is widely known in the country, and it's a common sight. The local populace knows all too well what tragedies unfold when cars ram checkpoints. So there you are. It's dark, and you've been checking goodness knows how many cars on this shift. Suddenly a car is racing directly at you and your friends at a high rate of speed. You only have a few seconds before the car is upon you. You do everything in your power to get the driver's attention and warn him of the danger. Your actions are unacknowledged and the car keeps coming. What would you do? Choose quickly, because the car's almost on you. If you're wrong, you and your team are dead. Before you judge our troops about the propriety of their actions, I'd like you to put yourself in the situation described and explain to me how this could've been handled better. Personally, I think it's remarkable that the troops had the presence of mind to sort through all that in a handful of seconds, and even then to shoot to disable the vehicle rather than kill the occupants. But if you think you've got a better solution I'd be glad to hear it.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#42)
    by bad Jim on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:44:42 AM EST
    Perhaps we ought to wait for more details before we start making up stories to justify the killing of an Italian intelligence agent and the wounding of a recently released hostage. If the Italians couldn't tell the difference between a hijacking and an occupation checkpoint (to toss out one of a variety of scenarios) then it might be sane to make some changes in how checkpoints are set up. How many Iraqis are routinely killed in this sort of situation?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:50:36 AM EST
    The only incident of something similar I can recall was when a couple with a carload of kids ran a checkpoint and similar tragedy occurred. I do take exception to the statement that US troops "attacked" the vehicle. "Attack" is a term denoting offensive (as opposed to defensive) action. This tragic event was a defensive action to a perceived threat.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:08:55 AM EST
    If there was no life lost in this story, it would just be laughable!

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#45)
    by Walter on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:21:19 AM EST
    Yes, attack is politically incorrect

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 03:00:39 AM EST
    I don't care about politically incorrect. It's an incorrect use of the word. Dictionary.com even says "Attack implies offensive action, especially to the onset of planned aggression." I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but I wouldn't call shooting an onrushing vehicle planned aggression. The headline implies it was coldblooded, pre-planned aggression against the journalist and the intelligence agent. Yet that implication isn't borne out by the story itself.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 03:09:33 AM EST
    At the end of the day, it was inconsiderate of the Italians to throw themselves in the way of strictly defensive US bullets? Trueblue, I think that your explanation for the probable setup of the situation is quite plausible, but at the same time, from the pov of many Italians, it borders on a switch of perp and victim. Bottom line for me: Many people predicted that Iraq would turn into the nightmare it now is, with situations like this one being the consequence of the invasion's aftermath. The neocons got their way, and the US have swiftly turned into the new Soviets, imagewise. We'll all see where this is leading, but I'm sure the US will not be the better for their current course. Obviously, quite a lot of this thread's commenters have a different opinion, and we'll have to wait 5 to 10 years anyway. Since I don't wish anybody any harm, I don't want to see the US harmed, obviously. But I think they have been sort of harming themselves these last few years, and by the time a sizeable part of the US public (slowly, slowly) realizes what has been done in their name, it will be too late. Your government does not act in your interests, but in the interests of... ah, you know the line of argument.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 04:48:52 AM EST
    I'm not trying to switch perp and victim. It just seems like a lot of times the tendency is to throw blame at the troops, instead of looking at all the factors that contributed to this tragedy. All I'm saying is that it's easy to armchair quarterback the event from afar, but not that many people have had to make a life or death decision on a moment's notice. This is especially true when you consider natural human reactions. That troop had to see the car and had to recognize its speed. There's naturally a moment of disbelief -- this can't be happening to me. Then there's the moment of recognition -- Oh my God, it IS happening to me. Then there's the moment of deciding what to do next. We're talking seconds, here from beginning to end, and that reaction cycle adds to the time. Meanwhile, the people in the car are going through the same process: observe, orient, decide, and act. When the time is compressed, the possibility for errors increases. A solution, IMO, would be to peel this back and see if there's a way to lengthen the reaction time for everyone involved so that things like this can be avoided. I suppose it would be possible to put "checkpoint ahead" signs and flashing lights for three blocks before it happens. But then you run the risk of making it pointless because the guys you're trying to catch get too much warning and turn the other way before they get to you. It might also be possible to make it more identifiable at the scene, but that may already be happening. I'm not trying to say the troops are blameless here; I'm saying there's a lot of physiological and psychological factors at play in a compressed timeframe that exist independently of conscious, premeditated thought -- on both sides.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 05:51:35 AM EST
    Dearest No Name writes - " Many people predicted that Iraq would turn into the nightmare it now is..." Yes, a real nightmare. We have rid the world of a stone cold killer, destroyed his ability to get back into the WMD business, destroyed his ability to provide weapons and assistance to terrorists, and the people have launched a government intent on democracy. And the "perp" as you so glibly toss around, is not the US Army. The perp is the tererorists who kidnapped her in the first place. I mean, are you incapable of understanding that she was fleeing because she had been kidnapped. Try a little cause and effect logic. Paul in LA writes - "The US military deserves a whole range of 'attacks.' They have commited a series of war crimes over the last several decades, and some STUNNING failures, like 911." Okay PIL, no more pious "I support the troops" BS from you. We now know who you are.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:12:33 AM EST
    We have rid the world of a stone cold killer I am so tiresome of hearing about Saddam's brutality as if he were the only brutal regime in the world. And these are convservatives who decades earlier gave little concern to their fellow global citizen. Why did we "liberate" the people of Iraq but not those in Africa, SE Asia? Who gets to pick and choose where our young men die? This is just another lie in a long list. Occupation does not work and has not worked, read your history.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:59:53 AM EST
    ///We have rid the world of a stone cold killer, destroyed his ability to get back into the WMD /// Dear stubborn PPJ, There was NO WMD in Irak. There was NO WMD in Irak. There was NO WMD in Irak. There was NO WMD in Irak. There was NO WMD in Irak.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:06:19 AM EST
    This is just another lie in a long list. Occupation does not work and has not worked, read your history. Still riding that horse GregZ? Give it up and I list again for possible penetration: France, Germany, much of Western Europe, Japan and the Philippines. That is THE HISTORY of occupation and all those examples are a success in various degrees. Now take your own advice and read history.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:12:53 AM EST
    banana - Read the COMPLETE Kay Report, not just the part you agree with. GregZ - Pardon me, but what you are saying is that because we didn't do good in the past - and I don't agree with that, but anyway - we shouldn't do good now, especially because our ablity to do good is limited. That is a dumb position. And can you say Syria, Lebannon, Palestine.... Change comes...

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:26:14 AM EST
    Well said, marc. Don't forget South Korea, too. Occupation has never been rosy from the beginning. But over the course of years, countries that we went into and tore up through military action benefited from our presence. Don't get me wrong; initially it was very ugly. But the US has a long history of rebuilding the ground we walked on in the course of war. Japan and Germany, two nations we've had some of the closest ties with, were once occupied by the US, had interim governments set up the US, etc. Japan's government was designed by Douglas MacArthur. As Americans, we form close attachments to places where we've bled, and with nations who have bled with us. Every major country we've occupied has, in the long run, become stable and successful because we built a foundation for them to grow and recover. I'll allow that Vietnam is an exception -- but we left that country under very different circumstances in the hands of a communist government. But there's ties there, still, and we're seeing a warming between the two nations.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:51:07 AM EST
    " All our soldiers on the ground saw was an unresponsive high speeding civilian vehicle hurtling towards them." That's the official US statement. Giuliana Sgrena said they car was definitely not speeding and that they had already gone through other US military checkpoints. At less than 1km from the airport, after a turn, they were shot upon immediately with more than 400 rounds. They say they were not stopped or warned , but just shot upon without warning. So you have two versions. Which one do you choose to believe? which party has all the interest in denying any responsibility, the party who shot, or the party who was shot? Also, why, instead of choosing to believe a story based on whose political views you are more sympathetic to, why can't we try and wait for more information? The police in Rome have opened an official enquiry for voluntary manslaughter. The US army has unique laws that secure its military personnel the right to be tried in the US instead of in the country which has jurisdiction over an incident involving US personnel abroad. So that already skews the possibilities of ascertaining the truth via legal means. But despite that, there are three people who were in that car and are still alive. Unless we assume they - one journalist and three top agents of the Italian intelligence, who worked for the Italian government who is an ally of the US in Iraq! - are completely useless and unreliable sources, maybe we should listen to their story too! Enough said.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 08:16:47 AM EST
    I haven't read the Italian newspapers, but I suspect this will remind them of Capt. Richard Ashby and his little killing spree back in 1998.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 08:22:39 AM EST
    The lessons of failed occupation and colonization are evident throughout the continent of Africa, portions of Southeast Asia and much of South America. It your too blind to these facts it is because you only have an American perspective of historical events. why are you repubs so obessed with WWII as if it is some endgame in which all events much be compared? I find the French failure in Algiers or Egypt to be a much better model than Japan or Germany for comparisons to the situation in Iraq. WWII is a unique event that involved nearly the entire globe, this is an occupation led by the US at the objection to a majority of the international community.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    I am already getting tired of hearing that democracy is on the march in the Middle East & Bush is a genius. I hope it is true. But it is way to early in the game that Bush has set in motion in the Middle East to know if it is going to turn out well. We are not going to know the results of this game for a long, long time. It is just as likely that the entire Middle East will end up in flames as it is that universal democracy is going to sweep the region. Bush like to style himself as a man of vision. So is every gambler I have ever met. I have nothing against throwing the dice once in a while because the gambler has a vision of sevens dancing in his head. Bush is not a gambler who takes the milk money to Vegas for the weekend & comes home a little richer or in trouble with his wife. Bush is the guy who goes to Vegas w/ the mortage in his pocket determined to bet it all on a single roll of the dice because he knows he can't lose. Even if he wins he will bet it all on the next roll. We all know how that story ends.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 09:50:53 AM EST
    Dan: And of course, even when Bush loses he doesn't really lose. What are the deaths of a few soldiers or fuhreners to him? The stakes for him and his circle of fools are really very, very low, always have been, always will be.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 10:44:23 AM EST
    Italian - What I believe is that this would not have happened IF SHE HAD NOT BEEN KIDNAPPED BY TERRORISTS. Everything else flows from that one esential fact. If you want to complain, start with that. Somehow I don't think you will. GregZ`- You are confusing colonoization with occupation. Two different subjects. Dan - We know you are tired of good news. Kinda dampens your "aint it awaful" attutude, eh?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 10:46:19 AM EST
    Mar: no, there was no mention of the cable car tragedy in the Italian papers. I don't think anyone would claim the two situations are similar, because they really aren't, except of course in the way the US military command expects to get away with a few "oops sorry" and then fake suprirse if people get angry. Look, the only difference between what happened to the Italian agent and what goes on on a daily basis in Iraq is, you don't get to hear about the other cases because they don't involve Western citizens who happen to work for governments that happen to support the US occupation. When they're "only" ordinary Iraqis, it doesn't even make the news. That's what's been said in Italian papers. The same reporters working with Sgrena had been saying this all along.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 10:58:11 AM EST
    Well, PPJ, actually, if she had never gone to Iraq in the firt place, none of this would have happened; also, if she had never been born, none of this would have happened either. It wasn't the kidnappers who fired on the car. And it wasn't kidnappers who were in the car either. It was government officials. Of a government that took the same US position on Iraq. DUH.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:03:27 AM EST
    The terrorists would not have kidnapped Sgrena IF IRAQ HAD NOT TURNED INTO THE HOME-COUNTRY OF TERRORISTS BECAUSE OF THE ILLEGAL US INVASION.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:06:10 AM EST
    Besides, the fact the car was transporting someone who had been kidnapped has nothing to do with the shootout on the way to the airport. The US say it's a mistake and if it's a mistake, they did NOT know who was on the car. It could have been any other car. What kind of logic is it, to blame the shooting itself on the kidnappers??

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#66)
    by glanton on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:11:13 AM EST
    PPJ: What Dan is tired of, and what I laugh at,, is not good news, but ersatz rhetoric masquerading as good news. "Freedom is on the march"-- the commercial hobgoblin that makes a strumpet of the truth and yet thoroughly dominates our media at every turn. In private conversations with friends and family, do you say things like "we're spreading freedom" and "freedom is on the march"? If you do your mind has been co-opted, you've become an echo chamber and nothing more. Too much kool-aid.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM EST
    ppj, you really are a piece of work.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:25:56 PM EST
    In (old) Europe, we say the Americans don't care about what happened to the Italian journalist and don't want to hear about it. And above all, they don't want to hear what she said. I am glad this blog proves some do care about it. But i think most of you have no clue about the growing anti-americanism down here.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 03:12:03 PM EST
    "Posted by French: "But i think most of you have no clue about the growing anti-americanism down here." "Wherever you live in the world today, all people are citizens of Los Angeles." --John Fitzgerald Kennedy To become anti-american because of the criminals who seize control of our foreign policy for corporate income is just to hate the human race. If it wasn't us, it would be someone with this misfortune. Liberal American values are correct, and strong. But tyranny has been on the earth FOREVER. Stand by us now, allies, and when the blade falls on Bush's neck, we will ALL dance in the street. Keep the telescope pointed in the right direction.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 04:29:29 PM EST
    from E&P : Questions Grow Over Shooting Incident as Italian Reporter Returns Home : ... Scolari also said the shootout took place 700 meters from the airport, after they had already passed other road blocks. At a press conference he said: "Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had alerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. And yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?" ...

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#72)
    by aw on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 04:32:38 PM EST
    Been cruising left-leaning blogs and two things are striking: 1- The assumption (before details have come out) that US troops did this deliberately or wrecklessly. 2- The way liberals relish any negative news from Iraq. kinda sad... Was reading right-wing blogs and they are trying to say the reporter set up her own kidnaping and was in cahoots with the insurgents. That's kind sad, too.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 05:03:22 PM EST
    amberglow - Why? Because communications are poor, things get screwed up sometimes and accidents happen . Any other real hard questions? French - Excuse us if we don't wallow in shame. Accidents do happen, especially in war zones. Italian Reader - No, you can't take it back that far. The question is real simple. Would she have been speeding down the road if she had not been kidnapped. The answer is, perhaps. But not that road, at that time for that reason. Her death is a tragedy, but no more so than the thousands of others who got caught in cross fire, bombs, etc. Not to be too blunt, but bad things happen to good people every day of the week. I suspect that most of the tears being shed are of the crocodile variety meant to work up opposition to the US.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 05:18:59 PM EST
    aw how about a link, I don't believe you for an instant.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:12:50 PM EST
    "The people of the US have just re-elected Bush and all that he stands for. The majority has given their ok to it all." No, that's a lie. Bush DID NOT win the election. He stole Ohio, and that we know for sure, because we have the affidavits from the election officials that: • Triad Systems, the biggest electronic voting contractor, changed the computer hardware in many of the counties to prevent a legal recount. • Triad Systems also supplied FALSE voting totals to the election officials (also affidavited). • 30% of Cleveland's vote is missing. • There has been no legal recount in Ohio, even though it was ordered by the courts. • The Justice Dept. refuses to investigate the affidavits (by gov't officials in Ohio). Beyond Ohio, there was MASSIVE vote fraud throughout the country. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN US HISTORY, 80% of the population has NO right of recount, because 28 states have no paper trail. That's unconstitutional; we haven't had a LEGAL federal election in five years. Stop spreading lies, and start fighting for your voting rights. We are in the middle of a coup.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:23:50 PM EST
    Thanks, Paul. What exactly was it the US gov wanted to bring the people of Iraq (after WMD and al-Qaeda-links had turned into air)? Democracy? How can they export a thing that they don't even have at home?

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#77)
    by aw on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:38:16 PM EST
    Try this, Yeah Right http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/070198.php

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:02:22 PM EST
    Oh, boy. Which story do I believe? The military's -- if for no other reason than the fact that I find it extremely difficult to believe that our soldiers could fire 400 rounds at the car and there still be people alive in there. But that's me and my knowledge of military marksmanship talking. There seems to be an assumption that military justice won't hold its members accountable for their actions. Tell that to the Specialist who was busted and thrown out of the service for flashing at a mud wrestling event. Tell that to folks that spend months in confinement for smoking a joint. Just because the results of military justice aren't hand delivered to your front door for your perusal doesn't mean that justice isn't delivered. But by making a broad, sweeping statement like that, Italian, you can easily throw away anything that comes forward that may contradict your opinion. Paul, I...nah. Too easy. As far as the WWII argument goes, it's being brought up because it's the last reference point for US occupation and reconstruction. If we had more current examples, I'd use them. I say again, people -- try living in an environment full of car bombs and suicide bombers. Before you cast too many stones at the troops, put yourself in that situation and tell me that you'd stare down an oncoming, nonresponsive car and hold your fire. It's easy to critique from the comfort of your chair -- especially if you've never worn a uniform and faced combat.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:36:27 PM EST
    They are watching us as we type, and they probably fight dirtier than any of us can imagine. Paul, I am not sure whose head is going to be under the blade. And how can you chide the citizens of the world for turning anti-American? The people of the US have just re-elected Bush and all that he stands for. The majority has given their ok to it all.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:13:38 PM EST
    PPJ : Excuse us if we don't wallow in shame. Accidents do happen, especially in war zones. US media didn't tell you yet that the patner of the italian journalist accused the American Government of trying to kill her on purpose.

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 06:51:30 AM EST
    great post WG

    Re: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 07:17:01 AM EST
    French - If the US had wanted her dead they would have done it differently. This was just an accident. Now I know you are just quivering at the thought that the CIA used a half dozen US troops, not vetted, not committed to keeping quiet, etc., but it just doesn't work out. And they fired 400 rounds and only killed one and wounded one? That doesn't ring true, either. Paul In LA - If Bush has stolen two elections, and that is me laughing in the background you hear, then we are not in the middle of a coup, because that is past tense. Not that is, unless you are in process of trying to have a coup, which would be present tense.