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Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 06:33:19 PM EST
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by TChris

Giuliana Sgrena, wounded by American troops shortly after her release by Iraqi captors, believes she may have been targeted because the United States opposes the kind of negotiation with terrorists that secured her release.

In an interview with RAI, Italian state television, Sgrena recounted her final moments before freedom: "When they let me go, it was a difficult moment for me because they told me, `The Americans don't want you to return alive to Italy.'"

The United States says the shooting was "a horrific accident." Horrific it was. An Italian intelligence officer was killed, and one or two others were wounded.

Sgrena's editor at the daily Il Manifesto, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car.

Accounts of the shooting are in conflict.

The U.S. military has said the car Sgrena was riding in was speeding and Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and warning shots to get it to stop at the roadblock. But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said, "There was no bright light, no signal." She also said the car was traveling at "regular speed."

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    • Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting | 24 comments (24 topical)
    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 07:50:41 PM EST
    I'm not sure what to believe about this incident. Think I'll reserve judgment until til I hear more info...

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 07:57:14 PM EST
    I thought that late model cars have some type of computer installed on them (courtesy of insurance co.'s) to track all starts, stops, accelerations and speed levels. If someone really cared enough to find out the truth, couldn't this be checked to verify or refute Ms. Sgrena's allegations that the car wasn't speeding? I may be a small brain, but it seems to me that verification of at least part of the truth could lead to an exposure of the entire truth.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 08:29:14 PM EST
    While US military spokespeople allege that Calipari's car was speeding, unidentified, towards an Army checkpoint, Sgrena's life-partner, Pier Scolari, told Italian media that Calipari's car was a few hundred meters from the airport and already past all US checkpoints when the attack began. Sermonti, who spoke with Scolari, says, further, that "Calipari was speaking in English with someone in the airport telling them to get ready [for Sgrena's arrival] when, just as they reached the airport, without any warning, the [US forces] opened fire."
    link Could really use some independent observations

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 08:30:33 PM EST
    A: If the U.S. military wanted to kill Sgrena, she'd be dead. B: I don't think any U.S. administrator or officer is dumb enough to think they can improve things in Iraq by killing, or almost killing, Italian hostages. C: Hats off to Calipari.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 09:21:20 PM EST
    Why I don't think the US tried to kill her on purpose: If she were dead, then all you'd have would be the US account of a tragic mistake brought on by apparently the victim. If she had never been fired on, no story. From a political standpoint the WORST possible outcome is what happened. SOMEONE died, and she lived. Now, its causing a whole great whacking lot of trouble for the US and stirring up Italy even more.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 11:01:40 PM EST
    I'm seeing things, and it might be a good thing. Going to yahoo news just 30 minutes ago, they started out an article on this event by saying "Left wing Italian Journalist..." and now it makes no mention of whatever political ties the AP writer thinks she has. That was a quick recovery, I must say; kudos to Yahoo for not turning this political, at least not yet.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 11:04:12 PM EST
    On Bush's empire anything can happen, you never know, if Sgrena is killed Mr. Bush would quickly invent something, maybe that she was a terrorist, friend of Al Quaeda, or one of Hussein's closest friends (remember he is a freedom fighter)

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#8)
    by Andreas on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 12:45:03 AM EST
    If the shooting were a “mistake”, it only confirms that the US military presence in Iraq has nothing to do with “democracy and liberty”. If a high-profile journalist whose capture and release made the international headlines can be gunned down along with Italian intelligence agents by US troops, how many Iraqi men, women and children have suffered the same fate for failing to obey US military orders? Only a few of the worst instances have been reported in the international media. ... This “innocent” explanation is, however, the least plausible.
    Did the US military target Italian journalist Guiliana Sgrena in Iraq? By Peter Symonds, 7 March 2005

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ray Radlein on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 01:40:05 AM EST
    It's also interesting that despite an unending series of "turning the corner"/"light at the end of the tunnel" moments touted to the public for the last year or more, we still have no effective control over the road from the airport to Baghdad, where this happened. For all practical intents and purposes, we don't even use the road any more, preferring to fly people from the airport (!) into the Green Zone.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 02:15:48 AM EST
    I don't think she was a target. But. The US military also always made it clear they didn't want to go to extra lenghts to accomodate the policies of the Italian government about hostages, policies that include ransoms being paid to criminals, which the US strongly disapproves of, it's the US who have the ultimate military command in Iraq. So, it's likely the shooting was the accidental result of a clear "difference of opinion" that had already come to moments of tension before. They US want to raid kidnappers, Italy wants to pay ransoms because for the Italian government it is a lot more costly on the political level when hostages are killed. They need to be able to free at least a few, at all costs. So what's more likely is, this was a mix of accidental and incidental. It's very easy to get that mix in a situation like current Iraq. Enough said.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 05:32:16 AM EST
    I was going through message traffic the other day and there was one from the pentagon. It stated the military has not had enough bad press lately, and it pleaded for an incident. Andreas: Yes, that ridicoulous paper you always quote is correct. The car she was riding in had a huge sign over it with blinking lights saying "recetly released journalist aboard". It also had a huge blown up picture of her on the sign so the troops know it was really her from a distance. That is how the troops knew to target that car.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 06:37:30 AM EST
    All of you who think you know what it's like to be driving to the Baghdad International Airport these days: Shame on you for second guessing the brave and hard-working military folks deployed to Iraq. Come on out and see what it's like for yourselves and then you'll be justified in judging. Otherwise, it's just armchair quarterbacking at its worst.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 08:43:10 AM EST
    ... Wondering what Eason Jordan's thinking... On a more serious note, several issues with this support her story. 1. A civilian car going towards safety was fired on by American forces enough to cause injury and death to the inhabitants. 2. Why would this journalist lie? You wingnuts want to say that because she is "libera" her story is suspect? Yet, the Americans, after all the deaths, all the abuse, the lack of training, reports of overusing firepower when in stressful situations, should have their story accepted at writ? 3. They probably were going fast, but could not have done anything that could be perceived as threatening - what triggered the attack. I find it impossible to believe there were ignored warnings - why would an intelligence officer riding in the car ignore protocal designed to save the journalist? 4. From a plot theorist perspective, it works too well. If they all were dead, then we would hear that the negotiations were unsuccessful as they were subsequently killed upon their release on the way to the airport. U.S. - 1. Italy - 0. Disgraceful, whether we're evil or just incompetent. To the Troops, not your fault you've been hung out to dry, under trained under equipped and unprepared by your mission for the realities on the ground. Caught in the hypocrisy - some poor slobs will take the fall again.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 09:18:06 AM EST
    scott, some of us have family in iraq in the miltary but still feel strongly enough about our country and freedom to criticize our government for its lies, incompetence, and its utter surrender of imagination to violence. and guess what? i CAN imagine how horrible it is. if you can't, or if anyone else can't, then they haven't done much with freedom to free their minds. it's terrible there, violent, chaotic. no sh*t, buddy. do you think ANYONE on either side of the political fence would argue about that? of course not. as for the soldiers, they are just like all people: some are great, some are worthless, some are in the middle, some are violent, some are peaceful, etc. your attempt to lump them all together and thus annoint their mission with critically untouchable status, well, don't live in free america -- because freedom will make you uncomfortable and restless every day if you're really exposed to it.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 10:54:35 AM EST
    mfox...
    1. A civilian car going towards safety was fired on by American forces enough to cause injury and death to the inhabitants.
    That it was a "civilian" car is tragic, but not meaningful for looking at intention. The terrorists pose as civilians frequently (or, arguably, they are civilians).
    You wingnuts want to say that because she is "libera" her story is suspect?
    Who said that? Personally, I think that because she had a poor perspective on a complicated and fast incident, her story is suspect.
    They probably were going fast, but could not have done anything that could be perceived as threatening - what triggered the attack.
    Given the prevalence of car bombs, driving (fast or not) where you're not expected is threatening.
    I find it impossible to believe there were ignored warnings
    Yes, that would be fishy. But people make mistakes in stressful situations. Look at friendly fire situations and you'll see such mistakes without the political overcast. I find it equally impossible that American soldiers would obey an order to murder an Italian civilian, or keep quiet in the current media attention if they were duped. One of us might be wrong.
    From a plot theorist perspective, it works too well.
    Your point is the exact opposite of evidence.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 12:14:32 PM EST
    So, it's likely the shooting was the accidental result of a clear "difference of opinion" that had already come to moments of tension before. They US want to raid kidnappers, Italy wants to pay ransoms because for the Italian government it is a lot more costly on the political level when hostages are killed.
    Dear Italian, Paying randsom does nothing more than provoke and fund more kidnapping. Thats not difficult to grasp. Perhaps if the bullets and bombs that your randsom money bought, were directed at Italian soldiers rather than American soldiers it would be a lot harder to pay. It's like Bush spelled out at the beginning of this, "either your with us, or your against us."

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 01:15:42 PM EST
    This "journalist" can't even seem to get her story straight, and her analysis show an incredible lack of reasoning. If we were trying to kill her, why the hell did we pull her out of the car and give her medical attention? Either the painkillers she is undoubtedly on are befuddling her, or this is yet another case of anti-americanism defying reality. This is a tragedy, but when you run operations independently in a war zone, there are risks associated with them.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 02:42:56 PM EST
    roy at 11:54 AM
    That it was a "civilian" car is tragic, but not meaningful for looking at intention.
    So, our policy is shoot at everything? Kill everyone because we can't tell the difference?
    The terrorists pose as civilians frequently (or, arguably, they are civilians
    So... you believe there are no policies in place to distinguish or that there is no distinction whatsoever, that Iraqi civilians, are defacto terror suspects by definition?
    I think that because she had a poor perspective on a complicated and fast incident, her story is suspect.
    (*choke*) POOR PERSPECTIVE??? She wasn't looking from around the corner. She was in the car and got shot and you're disqualifying her as a credible witness because she was there??? Complicated and fast may be why the military's story is suspect...
    Given the prevalence of car bombs, driving (fast or not) where you're not expected is threatening.
    DRIVING ON THE (NOT CLOSED) ROAD TO BAGDHAD AIRPORT IS LOL, UNEXPECTED? WHAT WAS SHE SUPPOSED TO DO, MAKE A FREAKING RESERVATION????
    But people make mistakes in stressful situations. Look at friendly fire situations and you'll see such mistakes without the political overcast.
    Yes, but my point is, was this just a random friendly fire incident as in "it happens all the time?". Does this seem probable to you? Plausible? Given the prevalence of these incidents on this mission, If so, how often is this happening and why are we killing so many innocent people?? Targeted or not, we are proving Il Manifesto's point.
    I find it equally impossible that American soldiers would obey an order to murder an Italian civilian, or keep quiet in the current media attention if they were duped. One of us might be wrong.
    Really? Impossible? Truth be told, Roy, I'd rather be wrong than live in a country that would murder a journalist because she wasn't "with us".

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#19)
    by roy on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 03:53:22 PM EST
    So, our policy is shoot at everything?
    Hyperbole aside, that would be a bad policy. Our policy should, however, not allow the terrorists to use disguise as civilians as an unstoppable tactic.
    So... you believe there are no policies in place to distinguish or that there is no distinction whatsoever...
    I believe we have policies in place, obviously they're imperfect. Terrorists deliberately obscure the distinctions, is it surprising that sometimes soldiers get mixed up?
    (*choke*) POOR PERSPECTIVE???
    She was in the back seat, which is physically not great perspective. She is very emotionally involved, which is not great for remembering things well. I overstated my case to call her perspective "poor", but I stand by "not great".
    DRIVING ON THE (NOT CLOSED) ROAD TO BAGDHAD AIRPORT IS LOL, UNEXPECTED?
    Being on the wrong side of a checkpoint, without first stopping, is unexpected.
    Yes, but my point is, was this just a random friendly fire incident as in "it happens all the time?". Does this seem probable to you? Plausible?
    Pretty much. It wasn't friendly fire, but it was mistaken identity, so it shares a common cause with friendly fire. To me, it seems at least as plausible as what happened to Pat Tillman (different circumstances, similar degree of squirrelliness).
    If so, how often is this happening and why are we killing so many innocent people?
    Excellent question. The media attention and internal military investigations might answer it. Then we can improve those imperfect policies. Until there is an answer, let's not jump to conclusions about conspiracies and murder.
    Targeted or not, we are proving Il Manifesto's point.
    Which point, and by what chain of reasoning?
    Really? Impossible?
    Not really. I used "impossible" in the same sense you did.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 03:57:38 PM EST
    "Posted by roy: "A: If the U.S. military wanted to kill Sgrena, she'd be dead." "If the U.S. military wanted to kill Bin Laden, he'd be dead." Sgrena was reporting on the USE OF NAPALM IN THE RAPE OF FALLUJAH. Centcom has killed 27 journalists so far. This car was 1) expected, Centcom had been alerted, 2) accompanied by Italian secret service, 3) in cellphone contact with the airport (and therefore contactable by Centcom), 4) UNESCORTED. The road to the airport is so dangerous, Centcom doesn't even supply an escort for a rescued captive and the Italian secret service? Situation on the ground? Out of control, and then some. No exit strategy, no clearly-defined mission, no Powell Doctrine. No lessons learned from Vietnam.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#21)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 08:15:24 PM EST
    You guys need to wipe your chins. Adults have commented on this incident. Among other things, it was at night. A CSM reporter described in detail how things work or don't work, and why, with checkpoints. You may recall that a good many Americans have been killed by vehicle-borne IEDs. To work, they have to be driven to the immediate vicinity of Americans. The Americans have procedures to protect themselves from this. It is unfortunate that, 1, some folks panic, and 2, some folks don't get the message, and, most importantly, that the terrorists use civilian vehicles to hide among other civilian vehicles, thereby putting innocent civilians in jeopardy. It works both ways for you guys--I mean for the terrorists--when they succeed in getting a VBIED close to Americans and kill some or get some Americans to shoot first and kill the suicide bomber whom you--I mean they--will insist was an innocent civilian, or even make the Americans so cautious that an entirely innocent civilian is shot by Americans. Pretty much a win all around, hey? Sgrena's stories don't match. Several hundred bullets from an armored vehicle? We still haven't seen a picture of the car. How come it's still there? They were going fast. They were not going fast. The terrs got $6 mill to buy stuff to kill Iraqi civilians with. We have a martyr nobody knew so he won't be missed, and an almost-martyr who had a certain panache. Better than being dead, shot but still talking. The terrs have more money. You guys win all around.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#22)
    by Kitt on Mon Mar 07, 2005 at 09:00:01 PM EST
    "We have a martyr nobody knew so he won't be missed, and an almost-martyr who had a certain panache. Better than being dead, shot but still talking. The terrs have more money. You guys win all around." What absolutely idiotic statements! Exactly why I don't generally respond to those who aren't looking for dialogue or information but simply to foment more bullsh*t. But this is just stupid and crass slurs. The gentleman killed by American troops was an Italian helping rescue another Italian, regardless of ideological differences. Sources other than the American MSM have indicated that it was NOT a 'legitimate' checkpoint but a 'group' of troops out on patrol. Granted I haven't been in the military for awhile, but it really would seem likely the Americans at the checkpoints knew the Italians were coming thru because they passed thru fine - and this group on the road was startled when the car approached and probably didn't have a clue who they were.

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 08:59:55 AM EST
    Dear Dagma, Did you notice there are Italian troops in Iraq? No? What a surprise....

    Re: Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting (none / 0) (#24)
    by roy on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 04:02:36 PM EST
    TL, I think you goofed here by reading too much into the article. I goofed, too, by only reading it once before spouting off. I re-read the article and it just doesn't support the statement that "Giuliana Sgrena... believes she may have been targeted....". The closest it gets is that Sgrena can't rule out the possibility, which is really not very close. Sgrena has since denied saying she was targeted, and I think her denials are correct. Chiedo scusa. Thread's pretty much dead, but oh well. If I get the last word, it may as well be "oops".

    Giuliana Sgrena Talks About Shooting | 24 comments (24 topical)