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Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders

Update: 9:30 pm CNN confirms green Honda has been found in a parking garage.

Bump and Update: It was very interesting to see active Judges on cable talk shows tonight. Usually, Judges avoid television like the plague. Hardball was particularly interesting. Chris Matthews was itching for one of his Judge guests to rant against out of control defendants, and it didn't happen. All were reflective and out to keep the calm. This was an aberration. A one in a thousand occurrance. No one could imagine it becoming routine. Chris tries again with his next queue of guests--former New York sex crimes prosecutor Linda Fairstein and FBI profiler Cliff Van Zandt-- again excitedly reciting the details of the rape the suspected killer allegedly committed--and how he had a weapon in his shoe yesterday. (Chris didn't mention this was the second trial for the suspect. Last week, a jury heard the case and deadlocked--no finding of guilt.) I changed the channel, so I can't tell you if Fairstein ran with the hysteria.

Also, only one tv report I've heard has mentioned that the overpowered deputy who was killed was a female. And why was only one deputy escorting the prisoner?

Original post:

A defendant on trial for rape in Atlanta, Brian Nichols, stole a sheriff's gun and shot and killed the Judge and court reporter. He then kept shooting, left the Fulton County courthouse, mugged a reporter, hijacked his car, and is on the loose.

More news articles: here and here.

Did Nichols get the idea from the Lefkow murders? Last week in Cortez, Colorado, a divorce attorney was gunned down and killed by his client's soon to be ex husband. Are grudge killings on the rise or are these separate acts of desperate people with no other connection between them?

Update: I put my thoughts over at 5280 earlier this afternoon on when writing about the three sets of killings:

There are serious safety issues that need to be addressed. It would be helpful to see some statistics of such occurrences over a period of time. Solutions should not rushed and we should not create a one-size-fits-all response.

There are clear differences in these three killings. One occurred in a judge’s home. The courtroom killer didn’t bring a weapon into the courthouse, he reached over and took the sheriff’s deputy’s weapon. And the attorney’s killing took place in his law office. It seems to me that each of these occurrences present different risks and warrant different corrective measures.

Denver Federal Judge Kohn Kane was interviewed by 9News on the Lefkow killings. I agree with him.

"All the security in the world isn't going to help you," Kane says. "If somebody wants to get you, they can. And if that's going to affect you, you need to find another line of work."

Update: I switched back to Hardball. Chris Matthews was interviewing Congressman John Conyers. Conyers first reaction was to blame Bush's budget. I hate the budget as much as anyone, but that was unnecesary. This isn't about politics, it's about safety. Conyers said we have to add more money for federal judge threat analysis. Even though, as he acknowledged, federal judges feel safe in their courtrooms. The federal marshals' service does a great job. And their guns are never visible in court.

Then Rep. Conyers said you can't get a cell phone into federal courthouses today. That's just not true. In Denver, we bring cell phones into federal courtrooms every day. We just have to turn them off before entering. It's only cameras (including those on cell phones and pdas) and recording devices that are not allowed. So, there is no uniformity on this as Congressman Conyers suggested.

Matthews just recited the details of the suspect's rape for the 4th time in his show--and then went to former cop Bo Dietel. I changed channels again.

Update: CNN just interviewed the defense attorney. He said the first trial was 8 to 5 for acquital (13 jurors in Georgia?) but that the prosecutors were filling in the holes this time around and presenting a "more muscular" case. He said Nichols is very smart. Judge Barnes had told them yesterday he was going to ask for extra security --apparently as a result of the shanks being found in Nichols' shoes. But this morning, there was only one female deputy in the courtroom. The defense attorney also said Nichols is no longer his client after today.

Update: Why isn't anyone speculating he killed himself? He has no money for gas or food and there have been no other robberies reported that fit.

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    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:48:03 AM EST
    Is there no connection between these recent, ugly judicial assassinations and the strident denunciations by conservatives of "activist judges" and their continuing, outlandish disrespect for the judiciary in general?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ray Radlein on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure that this guy was not influenced by anything at all other than the desire to avoid prison. They had downtown Atlanta pretty well shut down this morning. That must have made getting into the Georgia Dome for the SEC tournament really interesting.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:23:23 PM EST
    Is there no connection between these recent, ugly judicial assassinations and the strident denunciations by conservatives of "activist judges" and their continuing, outlandish disrespect for the judiciary in general?
    possibly, but i lean toward the acceptance of violent pre-emption as the norm, if clinton err GW did it, it must be alright. "i did drugs but you know i did want the youngsters to try drugs saying the president did it" or some such nonsense. but i think this violent pre-emptive attitude will catch on mightly. god save the ki, i mean president.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#4)
    by demohypocrates on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:38:24 PM EST
    jns, Boy what a stretch. If this feller had handcuffs on this never would have happened. That isn't the fault of conservatives.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#5)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:37:19 PM EST
    At some points in legal proceedings, defendants must not be shackled or made to wear shock belts. I don't know if this was one of them. TL. How'm I doing?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 03:12:24 PM EST
    Well, let's see.....the trial's going badly, the prospect looks more and more like life in prison....hey, why not take a chance? Nothing to lose.. The act of a desperate man

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:18:00 PM EST
    Looks like the act of suicidal ideation. Even an irrational person would figure that shooting a judge in the courthouse is likely to end with his/her own demise.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#8)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:19:48 PM EST
    Yeah, ytterby....that's exactly what some attorney said also who was interviewed on MSNBC. All I keep thinking is this guy's not going to make to prison. As for an aberration, I was looking at timelines on MSNBC and CNN for judges who have been killed over the past 50 years or so. This is not a 'routine' happening nor even periodic. It is however very unfortunate, especially with the Lefkow case, that's it's occurred within a week of each other.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:29:13 PM EST
    I'm a deputy in Orlando and we've been using Stun Belts for 2 years now. This would never happen hear. ACLU has tried to sue on the basis of cruel and unusual punishment but have lost ALL motions! Step out of line, try to grab a gun and ZAP!!!!! We love them!

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:32:33 PM EST
    Colby, I hope that was a joke, but just in case it wasn't, and you really are a deputy, you're wrong. You don't need a stun gun. The gun should never have been in reach of the defendant. Deputies should have their guns covered.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:45:30 PM EST
    And this guy doesn't deserve the death penalty because?????? I hope the cops catch up with him and when they'er done he won't need a lawyer, he'll need a Mortician. Protect your freedom, join the NRA.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#12)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:58:11 PM EST
    So only one station mentioned that the deputy was a female. Is that good or bad? What difference does it make, other than to add fuel to the arguments of those who claim women aren't up to the nose-to-nose aspects of law enforcement? Better keep it quiet. Unless you want to pitch the woman-as-victim thing. What do do. What do do.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:59:34 PM EST
    So what did the guy do wrong? let's fact it people he knew what prison is and knew he was going, so we will never know if he did the rape and the guy will be shot dead within the week, Justice USA. But i am sad for the family, but this will mean nothing this time next year.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#14)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 05:59:37 PM EST
    TL. What's wrong with a stun belt? Not only does nobody get the wrong hands on a gun, nobody gets a broken nose, or damaged eye or any other stuff.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#15)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:04:13 PM EST
    Fred. You must have missed a phrase or something. What did the guy do wrong? Killed three people. But you knew that. So what did you actually mean?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#16)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:30:16 PM EST
    Had a great big Mexican meal for my birthday and topped it off with a large fried ice cream with carmel and chocolate and whipped cream. That's why I'm a little slow. Fred is sorry for "the family". And which one would that be, Fred? We have the rape victim and her family. We have the shooter's family. We have the families of the three dead people and, as I hear, one more injured. Then there's the family of the ADA who, due to a phone threat, has had to go to a secure location. The Lefkow murders demonstrate that you can't just worry about a judge, and by extension ADA, the family is in jeopardy, too. So, Fred. Which family gets your attention? And why?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:36:10 PM EST
    jns - Gesh. How low can you go to make an off the wall attack. Typical. aNOn_n - Congrats on the most nonsensical comment of the day. et al - The deputy's gun SHOULD NOT have been uncovered. But can anyone tell me why he was unshackled?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:43:50 PM EST
    I could only stand a few minutes of this report earlier today. I've been to that area; I don't see how anyone could have fired off all of those rounds and managed to escape to a parked car. Something here is not being reported. Now to our panel of experts.... "Bob, it is unthinkable that this happened. Is this a sign that we're not as safe as we think we are? Should we activate our National Guard here at home?" "Yes, Ted. I think we have to consider that in these post-9/11 days, no one is safe. Not even the brave men and women of our judiciary..." Tomorrow's Tampa Tribune headline, "Terror Strikes Atlanta Courthouse"

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:52:07 PM EST
    ppj - he was unshackled because he was in the midst of a jury trial and he is presumed innocent. We do not allow juries to see shackled defendants--unless they have misbehaved in such a manner as to warrant a judge deciding they have to be muzzled or shackled or removed from the courtroom. This defendant had not done that. The issue here is adequate security measures - don't use it as a springboard to remove constitutional rights of all defendants.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#20)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:45:55 PM EST
    TL. The defendant had been found to have armed himself in a previous trip to court, with two shanks. Is that sufficient to justify shackles? Define adequate security in terms of resources, not results. In other words, don't say, "So that nothing bad happens." Tell us about manpower. Numbers, how close to the guy, weapons. Would it take away the guy's constitional rights if, while unshackled, he was surrounded by two deputies? Four? Eight? If his seat was a box of some sort the escape from which would require enough time to give the deputies a step on him? That sort of thing.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:14:45 PM EST
    My husband has had two batsh*t crazy defendants threaten him for various rulings in the last two months. His take on the Atlanta shootings: baliffs and deputies should have had the special holsters that do not allow a gun to be grabbed.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:46:11 PM EST
    RA, the Judge did make a request for extra security after the discovery--he was concerned about the deferndant's actions in the event of a conviction. According to the defense attorney, who didn't object, it wasn't fulfilled. This is a security issue that needs to be addressed in Fulton County.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:27:34 PM EST
    We don't know what kind of holster was in use. Most places use at least a level 2 safety holster, which requires a distinct motion to get the gun out, and it will only come out forward and up. Of course, I have seen prison video tapes of people practicing how to get the guns out of these holsters. Level 3 needs buttons to be pushed at the same time as the motion is going on, but those are much bulkier than the level 2's. I would be completely unsurprised if we didn't find out what kind of holster was in use from the media.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:43:27 PM EST
    Another judge in the courthouse who appeared on Hardball said the deputies gun was secured in the holster and it would have been hard to get it out.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:34:26 PM EST
    I don't know enough about it, but it does seem very strange that there was only one deputy around with any chance at all of preventing what happened. Police arrests in the field nearly all involve more than one officer, and cuffs for even the slightest alleged offense. So what is going on in the Court House where the field risk is ignored? As to the presumption of innocence, this is certainly not the case to some degree where the alleged perpetrator is denied bail and instead actually jailed at least until the verdict. Jurors must be aware of this fact where it occurs and probably understand the logic involving the potential risk of not jailing the alleged criminal if s/he is judged possibly guilty/dangerous by the D.A. and judge. So why would they not understand cuffs? I know it's possible they might not understand the presumption of innocence regardless, but how much real damage do visible cuffs do to the presumption?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 12:04:56 AM EST
    JPedan, defendants who cannot make bail are also presumed innocent. Jurors are not allowed to see them in jail clothing unless that's their choice. The defendant is allowed to change into street clothes provided by his family, friends, or lawyer when he gets to the courthouse.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#28)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 04:34:00 AM EST
    wg What a strange day to be making an argument against the shackling of clearly dangerous individuals. Apparently the victims of this tragedyarent worthy of mention by you. The only barbarism here is the murders of innocents. Somehow I think that the right of the Judge, the court reporter and deputies to not be gunned down in cold blood trumps Brian Nichols' 'right of inviolability' whatever that ridiculous abstraction might mean. I have read your post three times and I still cant get a handle on whether or not you are serious.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 05:10:56 AM EST
    Add three more to the body count of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS! I wonder how many other police, firemen,and soldiers will die before we stop this egalitarian crap. Put the blame for this one firmly in the LIBERAL column. When someone cannot compete, lowering standards is never the answer. Mark W....still the PRESIDENT

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 05:29:54 AM EST
    TL. I know about the requested security. My question is what it would look like. In other words, I'm providing an opportunity for you to spell it out so that, when it happens, you can't complain. My sense from the lefties on this post is that security as a concept is all very well, you can hide behind calls for more of it, but you reserve the right to object to every, single actual arrangement as a constitutional infringement. I was right, TL. The Lefkow killer was a bad guy. The vics were grieved for. Here, we have Robin Hood and three invisible (please disappear) vics.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#31)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 05:38:55 AM EST
    I've never been in Germany, but the idea they have a moral lesson to teach us is kind of odd. Got a friend who was in the CID there with the US Army,working with German cops. His view was that they break heads and furniture first and entertain requests for compensation later.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#32)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 05:58:15 AM EST
    Slightly OT. You defense lawyers should call your travel agents. There's a murder case in New South Wales where the judge dismissed the whole thing on the grounds that the evidence against the defendant was so overwhelming that it would unfairly prejudice the jury. This appears to be the law, rather than a brainglitch from the bench. Also, they're about to pass a law immunizing lawyers from suits by clients for negligence. I've looked and looked at the report and there seems to be no evidence I can see that it's a joke. I mean, it is, but not a put-on kind of joke, if you see what I mean.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 07:08:47 AM EST
    RA: I thought your complaint or issue was addressed by TL when she said "defense attorney did not object to extra security". This is a tragedy no doubt but should not be a catalyst for drastic changes to the general population of the accused. There should have been more done here relative to security in light of the defendants history....

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 07:47:05 AM EST
    Richard - that new south wales story sounds like a distortion of the real story to me. Could you post a link to a credible source? Mark: Interesting to equate protection of constitutional rights with political correctness. Maybe conservatives will start sneering at "constitutional correctness" when it holds them back from running roughshod over our rights. Sometimes it amazes me how easily some of the rhetoric I here from the right would fit into what got said in countries moving toward fascism. Maybe that sounds extreme (and touching on godwin's law), but it really worries me. Okay, now I am going to go read Orcinus. I am suddenly in the mood.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 08:23:48 AM EST
    The Judge gets to decide the level of security in his courtroom. This Judge was experienced and had requested extra security, although not handcuffs or shackles for the defendant. He was not a bleeding heart liberal--believe me, those kind of judges don't last long in Fulton County. The Fulton County court system (in fact the entire state of Georgia's) was notoriously underfunded and undermanned when I lived there 10 years ago. I'm sure the ensuing years of Republican domination of the State legislature aggressively cutting taxes has made the situation even worse. That one female deputy was assigned to guard such a dangerous, strong, and physically imposing defendant is a complete failure of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office and reflects inadequate resources and procedures.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 08:50:25 AM EST
    I am an appellate judge in the Midwest but I spent 12 years on the trial bench. The death of the judge, reporter and deputy have shaken me to the core. Although I agree with jns who arote: "Is there no connection between these recent, ugly judicial assassinations and the strident denunciations by conservatives of "activist judges" and their continuing, outlandish disrespect for the judiciary in general?" As you know the courts can be and are a dangerous place. As a trial judge I ordered the courthouse evacuated and called for a bomb squad when suspicious vials and note indicating there was explosive in the vials was found during an eminent domain suit. The vials turned out to be fake and to have been planted a week earlier by a prisoner who had used discarded vials from a breathalyzer and putty from the jail windows-how he smuggled them to my courtroom is still a mystery. Several years later I presided over a high profile civil suit and in the aftermath there were death threats that were sufficiently serious that I had police protection for two weeks. Finally, more than 20 years ago,one of my compatriots on the appellate bench was prsiding over a criminal trial when the defendant grabbed a deputy's gun killed the two deputies in the court and fled.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 08:53:18 AM EST
    Suspect in Custody! His parents can start planning ahead for his funeral, because this monster is Guaranteed the death penalty!!!!! Can I watch? PPV???

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#39)
    by nolo on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 09:01:58 AM EST
    Nobody here is likely to be in the courtoom with a wacko like the Atlanta shooter. So the personal risk of objecting to real security is to other people.
    Actually, a lot of us here are lawyers, which means we go to courthouses regularly. A sitting judge just posted as well. So the personal risk to those of us who question your security suggestions is very definitely personal.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#40)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 09:09:22 AM EST
    It is considerably less risky to go about your business in a courthouse than to be in the courtroom with a guy like Nichols. And most of the folks who complain about constitutional violations are not going to be in that courtroom. They get to make their points with somebody else's life. As usual. I am still waiting for TL to answer the question if having a potentially violent defendant sitting at the table with two deputies standing immediately behind him is acceptable. Anybody can talk about security. That's cheap. It's actually providing security that causes the difficulties. Lefties would look better if they could bring themselves to name just one actual procedure that would, 1, look like it would really work, and, 2, about which they would not complain. As far as I can see, they will never combine the two. Either it may work, in which case they complain, or if they don't complain, the thing couldn't possibly work. There were apparently plenty of deputies in the area. Failing to assign more than one was not a matter of resources but of administrative competence.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#41)
    by nolo on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 09:17:42 AM EST
    Richard, there was an attorney in the courtroom with that guy, I guarantee you. And there are plenty of risks in the hallways as well. From what I understand, there is an ongoing debate right now in the county where this occurred about whether the security there is generally acceptable, and as to whether it was acceptable in this instance. It seems to me that you're the one trying to make some kind of political hay out of this, not TL or any other attorney here.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    Here in California, "dangerous" defendant's are often shackled, even during the jury trial. What happens is the def't is brought into the courtroom BEFORE the jury enters and is seated where the jury canot see the shackles. Alternately, the shackles are removed after the def't is brought in and seated. Heck, I had one case where the def't was shackled WHILE ON THE STAND, but he was seated there before the jury entered the room, so they could not see the shackles. Anyway, "Put the blame for this one firmly in the LIBERAL column." Um, is Brian Nichols a liberal? Of course, why should a right-wing extremist pass up the opportunity in a situation like this to blame the left for the murders. Thanks for once again using tragedy to advance your myopic, unflexible knee-jerk politics. Yes, W is still your president. Will you still be gloating over your achievement like a two-year old as late as 10/08? How many more cops and soldiers in Iraq must be killed before you'll give up on your childish "nah nah" antics?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 10:12:33 AM EST
    Richard Aubrey is trolling on this one. He has been since yesterday. All chatter and repetition, trying to make a fight. Richard, you're done on this thread. Future comments will be deleted.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#43)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 10:13:39 AM EST
    I know there was an attorney in that courtroom, nolo. But it wasn't you. He chose to be there. You can choose not to be there, thus reducing the risk to you. It would be somebody else's risk. I'm still waiting for somebody to detail constitutionally allowable security measures. No takers so far. I mean, as I said earlier, measures that would work. TL, knowing that the guy had had weapons with him on his previous visit, still said it would be a violation of his constitutional right to be considered innocent if he were to be shackled. This does not provide much confidence in the level of threat you folks would consider necessary before something effective was done. We know shackles might sway the jury. We know stunbelts--since they are worn beneath the clothes and are both invisible to the jury and effective--are not allowed because..... No reason given except that they might actually work. Can't have that. Let's have some solutions here. [remainder deleted, chatter]

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 11:15:12 PM EST
    It would appear that an unreasonable censorship, Aubrey's, rivals even the renowned and non-sensical "physical inviolability" as a guiding principle around here. I presume the Germans have again taken the lead in this matter, as they have done in the past when we so rudely rejected their benign intents, living as we were on another Planet at that time also. But, alas, I only would that it were so! [Ed. Mr. Aubrey posted over 20 comments today. He chattered. That's a violation of our comment policy, which is contained on the front of the site. I actually cut him some slack by not deleting all of the excess]

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 13, 2005 at 07:42:31 AM EST
    Tampa Student - Again you indicate your lack of understanding about a violent situation. How hard it is to take down someone who doesn't want to go down, and how quickly things happen. I would guess that the gun was siezed and all the shots fired in less than 20 seconds. He was in "civilian clothes" so he was not particularly noticable and was away from the scene in less than a minute. et al - I see several comments that the Judge was aware of his previous weapons violations, and requested added security. It looks like Fulton County blew it. But, shouldn't we have some way of protecting the people involved besides relying on organizations and people who may have faulty judgement? Why not a stun belt? It is effective, and doesn't show. Looks perfect to me.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 08:51:35 PM EST
    what i dont understand is why was a female officer taking a male inmate to change into his clothes for court. my husband is in prison and no female officers are allowed to even take them alone anywhere. and i also think that it is not right that they are only blaming him because they knew he was caught with shanks the day before that right there is them not doing their job. i think that somewhere the court security should have some blame in this matter.And i also know that when you are in prison the officers in charge of you are never nice they treat you like you are stupid.act like you are the worst person in the world. yes i know people do bad things and deserve to do their time. in this case i am confused what made him do this he has no back ground of violence except for the ex- girlfriend and the rape case. but if all that happened and she had so much evidence then why was it considered a mistrail. if i was a defense attorney i would really look into this case yes he deserves life in prison. but not dealth. i think maybe finally someone should look into the way the sytem and corrections work because in all do respect it is not fare.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:27:09 PM EST
    The only thing I indicate, PPJ, is my lack of faith in the media to tell the entire truth about anything. You, however, indicate that you can be a blowhard on just about any topic. I guess you're an expert in police tactics now too, eh?

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:15:49 AM EST
    Ever think having a 5 foot grandmother as a deputy courthouse guard may be a STUPID thing? That having a small woman armed with a handgun - guard a big raping, murdering man - is a STUPID idea? Funny how all the Left Media HIDES the fact the guard that he TOOK THE GUN FROM was a 5 foot grandmother, and he was what??? 6 feet tall, and just over 200 pounds. Idiot liberalism.

    Re: Reaction to Atlanta Courthouse Murders (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 08:36:27 AM EST
    Judges are reaping the fruits of their labors. It is they who have let murderers lose and have locked up the innocent or given harsh sentences to those guilty of minor crimes. Judges made it legal to kill children in 1974 and they wonder why people think killing is OK? I find it hard to sympathize with those who are responsible for turning justice on its head. Although I will not assist those who kill judges nor offer support to them, I also will not condemn them.