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Rendition Comes Out of the Closet

Now that everyone knows about the CIA's rendition program that sends detainees to foreign countries for interrogation--including countries that are known to practice torture--the Administration decides not only to acknowledge it, but to announce it intends to conduct more such transfers.

The Pentagon is seeking to enlist help from the State Department and other agencies in a plan to cut by more than half the population at its detention facility in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, in part by transferring hundreds of suspected terrorists to prisons in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Yemen, according to senior administration officials.

The transfers would be similar to the renditions, or transfers of captives to other countries, carried out by the Central Intelligence Agency, but are subject to stricter approval within the government, and face potential opposition from the C.I.A. as well as the State and Justice Departments, the officials said.

The man behind the Pentagon plan is, of course, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

A Feb. 5 memorandum from Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld calls for broader interagency support for the plan, starting with efforts to work out a significant transfer of prisoners to Afghanistan, the officials said. The proposal is part of a Pentagon effort to cut a Guantánamo population that stands at about 540 detainees by releasing some outright and by transferring others for continued detention elsewhere.

What's behind the move to reduce the population at Guantanamo? Is it finally some concern for the due process rights of the detainees? Not a chance. In fact, it's just the opposite. The Pentagon doesn't care for the restrictions the U.S. Courts have placed on their actions, so they want to move the show elsewhere--to foreign countries that won't have such concerns.

Defense Department officials said that the adverse court rulings had contributed to their determination to reduce the population at Guantánamo, in part by persuading other countries to bear some of the burden of detaining terrorism suspects.

Guantanamo has become useless.

In January, a senior American official said in an interview that most prisoners at Guantánamo no longer had any intelligence value and were not being regularly interrogated.

How about we just shut the place down?

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    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#1)
    by bad Jim on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 03:59:31 AM EST
    Of course we have to shut it down, since its original rationale was to be beyond the reach of American justice, an oasis free of law, which the Supreme Court has denied us. Replacing it with extrajudicial rendition will scarcely be an improvement.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 04:24:48 AM EST
    Don't like rendition? Tough - what are you going to do about it? Nothing as usual. Just a bunch of whining liberal pantywaists. God I love the sound of whining, ineffectual liberals in the morning. I am the greatest leader of the greatest most powerful country on this planet. I will do what ever the hell I want. if you don't like it, how about a one way ticket to SA, Eqypt. Anybody seen my pants

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#3)
    by theologicus on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:04:18 AM EST
    You have to wonder where all this is headed. Guantanamo is essentially a concentration camp for Muslims. Now that democratic procedures have attempted to rectify some of its abuses, it's time to move on. Robert Dahl, the distinguished political scientist, has worried for years that our citizenry has very little experience with an actual democratic culture in their daily lives. Despite the trumpting of "moral values" in this "freedom loving" administration, we may be watching the death of democracy by a thousand cuts.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:10:05 AM EST
    These are war crimes. The world knows that very well. I think we are the only ones who are kidding ourselves anymore about the fact that we have become a rogue nation.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:12:30 AM EST
    Mid term elections. Election reform. Papertrail for all elections. Wonder if it can happen or if we are too far down the path of fascism. I believe that Cheney and Rummy firmly believe they know what is best for us. It's a coincidence that what is best for us also dismantles democracy and makes them richer.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:13:51 AM EST
    Do any of the right wing folks want to explain the Geneva Convention and other treaty agreements that allow us to engage in rendition?

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:24:42 AM EST
    CA, You won't get elections with papertrails until the Democrats get on board with it, and that won't happen until they give up on using dead voters and people voting multiple times in each election as a means of winning.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:08:57 AM EST
    " most prisoners at Guantánamo no longer had any intelligence value and were not being regularly interrogated." Yeah. So, let them go. With an apology and compensation. Yeah, right. It was illegal to send them there in the first place: now that crime is to be compounded by extraordinary rendition?

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:10:22 AM EST
    justpaul dumbest thing you've ever said

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:15:23 AM EST
    Rendition was started under CLINTON! Get over it! We wouldn't need it if we didn't have the ACLU, Amnesty and the whiny human rights groups that want to coddle prisoners and terrorists. Even the dull Bill Clinton understood that!

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:23:25 AM EST
    Guess what...Clinton was wrong. Torture is not a manufacturing job to be outsourced. The gov't should have the decency to do it themselves and face the legal consequences.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:19:18 AM EST
    Abby, Actually, Bill Clinton was asking the Saudis to kill bin Laden, not to torture him, which is arguably a worse thing to have done. But that doesn't make it right, and his being wrong doesn't make Bush right. If we want to deal with these people harshly, we should do it ourselves.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:51:33 AM EST
    Transferring prisoners back to their countries of origin, or capture, or where they are wanted? I have absolutely zero problem with this. Granted, a lot of these countries are a bit weak on the human rights thing, but if I have been reading the arguments of the left correctly, why is that our concern? It's their culture and who are we to say differently? Sarcasm aside, I really do not think many will see a big deal in this, because there really isn't one. We have little use to continue sitting on these prisoners, so we should send them back- if the recieving gov'ts don't see any reason to keep them either, they will be freed.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:00:35 AM EST
    I'm glad TL has kept on this topic. I read the New Yorker article and it shows the US to be morally bankrupt. The idea that others should do our dirty work is no different than letting the lynch mob into a man's prison cell so they can hang him, and we (the local sherrif) can pretend we had no control over the outcome. B

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:07:57 AM EST
    I see nothing "morally bankrupt" with transferring terrorists back to their country of origin, to face whatever 'justice' their law dictates. You Lefties are impossible to please. We put them in Gitmo - you don't like that. We send them home, out of Gitmo - you don't like that. What would you like? Shall we send them to your house? Better keep a prayer rug handy!

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:22:05 AM EST
    if you people on the right don't see the danger in allowing this type of behavior, when they come for you, all the voices of opposition will have been silenced, and that will be an outcome with dire unintended consequences.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:45:32 AM EST
    Rendition is not necessarily sending them home, it most wouldn't be going home. But thanks for the attempt at deflection. What lowlifes, just redefine things to make it sound better. They could be Iraqis sent to Egypt, thats not home. They could be English or even US citizens.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 12:01:42 PM EST
    Abby: Rendition was started under Bill Clinton with clearly different standards: Before Sept. 11, the C.I.A. had been authorized by presidential directives to carry out renditions, but under much more restrictive rules. In most instances in the past, the transfers of individual prisoners required review and approval by interagency groups led by the White House, and were usually authorized to bring prisoners to the United States or to other countries to face criminal charges. As part of its broad new latitude, current and former government officials say, the C.I.A. has been authorized to transfer prisoners to other countries solely for the purpose of detention and interrogation.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 12:58:45 PM EST
    The Geneva convention was formed in a different time. It certainly was not conceived when the greatest threat to civilization is terrorists.
    That's not a description of a "different time". In 1949, as now, the greatest threat to civilization was powerful state actors headed by regimes that decline to conduct affairs within civilized norms, not nonstate terrorists.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Remember how we got them.
    By paying the local warlords and terrorists who decided to be our friends by the head for each "enemy" they found and turned over, with little or no verification, in many cases.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:02:27 PM EST
    Through the "fog of war" we have hit the brick wall Fascism

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:05:56 PM EST
    I see Soccerdad is all problem and no solution, his usual M.O. I'm interested; what what would you do, Soccerdad?

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:24:43 PM EST
    Horses behind
    I see Soccerdad is all problem and no solution, his usual M.O.
    God, how weak can you get. The admin's whole policy towards Iraq and the "war on terror" is out of control at best and completely counter productive. Their approach appears to be if you detain enough suspects, torture them, then some useful information is bound to appear. How about as a first step they folow court order and grant them a hearing to determine if they should be held. Otherwise send them home. How many have they released after more than a year of detention with no apparent benefit and then have the home country (including England) release them Its not my job to come up with solutions to problems they have created. They don't even listen to the courts. In general when you are in over your head stop digging

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:35:16 PM EST
    Soccerdad I give your response a "B". Minus the snark, it would have been an "A". There are problems with granting Terrorists lawyers; that is, in some cases specific incriminating evidence is classified and therefore poses a security risk if divulged to a 3rd party. Remember Lynn Stewart? She didn't help your arguement here. I agree that *someone* should be evaluating the circumstances upon which a suspect was detained (in fact, I'm sure it happens already) but I don't think giving accused terrorists access to Lynn Stewart-types is the answer. There's just too much at risk.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:46:14 PM EST
    Dear HWNN: What a ridiculous straw man that is. Lynne Stewart was held accountable for her violation of the law, and duly punished. If necessary, the punishment for passing along information that poses a security threat can be strengthened. But to suggest that enforcing due process (which -- do not forget -- is the law of the land) always leads to these abuses is sophism of the lowest kind. Do you believe that the laws of the USA should be respected? If not, just say so. Otherwise, rendition should worry you.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:54:09 PM EST
    Album I don't think we necessarily disagree on this issue. The question is who provides the defense and to what extent the public at large gets to know about it. I would think that a CIA officer who specializes in these sorts of matters and has security clearance would be more than capable of evaluating the evidence. And I'm sure it happens already.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 03:16:31 PM EST
    "Posted by The Horse: "There are problems with granting Terrorists lawyers; that is, in some cases specific incriminating evidence is classified and therefore poses a security risk if divulged to a 3rd party." JAG officers with security clearances ARE available, and in fact have written strong letters of protest on behalf of the Guantanamo disappeared. "Remember Lynn Stewart? She didn't help your arguement here." Her 'crime' was A SINGLE REUTERS INTERVIEW. Wow, what a dangerous woman. She broke a gag order; that's not terrorism, or treason, or a sign that she is a danger to society. Her trial was a fiasco, and her sentence is an absolute travesty and will be reversed, whenever an ELECTED president takes office. She is a number one candidate for presidential pardon in saner times.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#29)
    by demohypocrates on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 03:34:44 PM EST
    Violating a gag order and conveying to terrorists a message to lift a cease fire sounds like treason to me.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 06:15:56 AM EST
    Soccerdad, Their approach appears to be if you detain enough suspects, torture them, then some useful information is bound to appear. Lacking both a standing army and an industrial base to back them up, our enemies only recourse is that of conspiracy, subterfuge, sabotage and terror. That by definition, is 95% underground and covert. How perceptive of you to appreciate this facet of fighting our enemy. You are right, you take these terroritst to a secure location and pump them out for information. Then, you take that information and move to the other links in their organization. Just like the Colombian did with the Medellin Cartel. If that ruffles your sensibilities, you won't find apologies coming from my end.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 07:58:02 AM EST
    The prosecution of Lynne Stewart and the violation of client-attorney privilege is going to look really terrible in a few years when "we" look back on it. Like Japanese internment or the McCarthy redscare, the American people can figure out the ethics of the situation, but it takes them a couple of decades and by that time, the government is violating other basic rights in another "noble" cause. Current noble cause: war on terrorism. Quick, let's all throw out the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, there are terrorists at large who hate our freedoms. Just how dumb are the American people? Time will tell.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 07:59:20 AM EST
    The rendition that this administration is conducting? Two words: war crimes. We are the rogue nation.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 08:49:26 AM EST
    Conscious Angel, How can Ms Stewart have the attourney-client privileges violated, when it was herself who babbled on her private coversations wither client - Mr. Rahman? Me thinks that you have it all backwards. Attourney-client conversations are to be kept between two persons: the client and his/hers attourney.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 05:43:01 PM EST
    I will defer to those who followed the Lynne Stewart prosecution more closely than I did, but I believe her prosecution was based on the electronic surveillance of her meetings with her client. I do not believe that the prosecution was based on Stewart's "babbling" about Rahman. If you care to cite, feel free. Back to the thread: similar matter: we are giving up crucial civil liberties under the fear of terrorist attacks. Too back we don't fear tobacco the way we fear Osama Bin Laden. Tobacco appears to be much more deadly to the American people. But it's hard to work up the campaign to stop tobacco. Wait a minute, does Joe Camel look Muslim to you?

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 06:25:11 PM EST
    Posted by Demohypocrates: "Violating a gag order and conveying to terrorists a message to lift a cease fire sounds like treason to me. " NOTHING like C. Rice going to the NYT and blowing the name of the Al Qaeda mole that the British had developed. NOTHING like D. Cheney blowing the cover of much of our nuclear materials spies, to get political revenge. NOTHING like Don and George undermanning the invasion and releasing 280 TONS of high-explosives to hostiles. The supposed message was never there. The 'terrorists' who were supposed to get the message were never there. It was a witchhunt JUST like the Valerie Plame exposure -- designed to blackmail by fear the rest of the legal (and spy) profession. That you make arguments to be righteous is horrible enough, Dh, but the ignorance that you pretend is traitorous in itself.

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ted on Sat Mar 12, 2005 at 06:52:18 PM EST
    Are these persuasive arguments against Republicans or just silly points that make you all feel good about your little support group? The CIA said it has learned a lot from the rendition program. That means they may have saved a lot of lives, a lot of Amercian lives; so why not try to say something substantive against Republicans instead of something Republicans just laugh at as another indication of dumb you all are? bje1000@aol.com TheDumbDemocrat

    Re: Rendition Comes Out of the Closet (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 13, 2005 at 01:33:01 AM EST
    Bin Laden is loving this and our boy bush is the best Propanganda Bin Laden can have, maybe Bush is helping Bin Laden? from the inside out? and maybe bush has no ideal what he is doing? god help us all.