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Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Transfer

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sun Mar 13, 2005 at 08:50:56 PM EST
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Out of fear for their safety, a federal judge Saturday issued a temporary restraining order preventing the Administration from transferring 13 Yemeni detainees at Guantanamo to other countries.

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    Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Transfer | 35 comments (35 topical)
    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#1)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Mar 13, 2005 at 11:32:33 PM EST
    Hopefully this judge also issued himself some security to deal with the wingnuts who're convinced that these guys not being tortured will precipitate a nuclear attack on America. (Oh, you know they're out there.)

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#2)
    by Andreas on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:53:59 AM EST
    Pentagon plans rendition of Guantánamo prisoners Detainees face torture in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Yemen By Kate Randall, 14 March 2005

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 06:46:11 AM EST
    The checks and balances of our system are amazingly effective. The judiciary now is in the position of slamming the brakes on an executive and legislative branch that have little or no regard for the spirit or letter of the Constitution. The wingnuts will vilify this judge because they don't know a patriot from the patriot act.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:08:46 AM EST
    This is becoming something of a Catch-22. We can't hold these men in Cuba (or so their lawyer is arguing before the court) and we can't send them back to their own country (or so their lawyer is arguing before the court), so what do we do with them?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:37:47 AM EST
    ...so what do we do with them?
    prove them guilty of something, besides anti-american sentiment, sentence them, punish them (whatever that entails) or let'em go. just follow the law, stop making it up as you go along. pre-emption (speculative at best) is just not a good/legal strategy, more accurately a path followed by cowards.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:46:13 AM EST
    Outside, Okay, so say we let them go. What do we do, just let them walk out of Guantanamo and become Fidel's problem? Do we send them home to Yemen? Do we send them back to wherever they were originally captured? Do we send them to your house? Do we send them my house? Maybe Jeralyn wants to put them up for a while? Or maybe we send them to the U.N.? What do we do with these guys if we choose to set them loose but the judge rules we can't send them home? Do we just force them on a third country? Any suggestions about that?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:33:21 AM EST
    I suggest sending em to the Netherlands. There is room there since Van Gough was murdered, they can get cradle to grave care and we all can feel warm and fuzzy about their future.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:53:50 AM EST
    JP if you don't find them guilty of anything, it should be of no concern were they go once freed. again, if there not convicted of anything i don't see your cause for outrage. under your pretext you assume their quilty of something, anti-american sentiment not withstanding, but if your unable to prove that allegation, you return them to were you apprehended them, or better, just ask them where they want to go! pretty sure america could get them there. or you continue to sit in a catch-22 that's not gonna resolve itself. don't look for the best most advantageous outcome for yourself, but what is right, and that is defined as: how you would want to be treated in similiar circumstances. oh, they could be dangerous and later blow up some stuff or join the resistence in iraq. we simply cannot start imprisoning people for their beliefs (and associations imo, ref "Hakim theDream"), that as you well know has no end.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#9)
    by wishful on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:58:43 PM EST
    This Judge, she seems to think that ours is a nation of laws, not men. What a concept!

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 01:08:53 PM EST
    Outside, You need to lay off the gummy pipe and revisit that which you claim to be responding to. Where in what I posted is their any "outrage" at all? Where have I even discussed their "guilt"? I simply asked what should be done with them if, as their lawyers argue, they can't be sent back to Yemen and if, as their lawyers argue, they can't be held in Guantanamo. You say that we should send them "wherever they want to go": Okay, so what if they want to go to France? Should we put them on a plane, fly them to France, and then kick them out of the plane and let the French deal with them? Is this your idea of how we establish good foreign relations? The point is, the most logical place to send them is home, but their lawyers are saying we can't do that, so what do we do with them? Should we let them stay here? Hell no. The entire argument is that we had no business taking to them Cuba. If you accept that argument, you can't then say we have any business bringing them here against their will. And even if they want to come here (which I seriously doubt), they have no claim for a free pass to do so. So what do we do with them if we decide to let them go?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 04:44:19 PM EST
    Outside - You want attitude? Well, look no further. I have a real attutude about people who have no solutions but rattle on about "rights." This judge obviously cares more about non-US citizens than US citizens. Which is all nice and fuzzy wuzzy, but really doesn't solve anything. You follow right behind her. I note that we do not know why they are in Gitmo. Most likely they were captured in combat. Assuming that is the case, what is there to be determined? They are defacto guilty of attacking and waging war on the US. That being true, and given that they don't want to be sent back to Yememn, I suggest we hang them. To make it legal, we can follow the WWII example and give'em a quick military tribunal hearing before we break their necks. This BTW, is the historical punishment meted out to traitors, guerrilas, spys and other illegal combatants. Now, if they weren't captured in combat, we can take a little longer and try to determine their innocence or guilt. Now this may be a little bit difficult given the problems of time and distance, so here again we use a military tribunal, not the regular US court system. But we don't treat these guys like they are charged with robbing a QuickiMart. It isn't the same. Watch my lips. IT ISN'T THE SAME! Look at me! It aint the same!

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimcee on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    I guess the answer is to turn them over to the Afghan Warlords and let them deal with them. Or perhaps if they were caught in Iraq then just drop them off in whatever part of Iraq they were picked up in. In either case let them be subjected to their country of origin's legal system, afterall most of those who don't like the way the WOT is being handled had no problem with the way Saddam handled legal issues in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan. So why the change of heart now? The hypocracy of those that don't want them in Gitmo and don't want them sent packing is astounding. If we can't keep them at Gitmo but we can't send them packing. So what do we do? No, they don't have a right to a fair trial just because the US holds them for now but I have no problem with repatriation as it is not as if the authorites just scooped up these fellas at your local Starbuck's. There is a reason that they are there and it ain't for skipping out on their check at Applebee's. Because you don't agree with the WOT doesn't mean that you are right. If you have no answers to this cunumdrum than admit it and stop the childish tantrums. If you have a reasonable answer let us all hear it, if not don't waste the keystrokes.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:30:01 PM EST
    Put yourself in their spot. If you were kidnapped and sold to crazy anti-american paramilitary types, tortured, interrogated for years, and then at long last, the paramilitary organization decided you really had nothing to do with anything, where would you want to be released? How would want to be compensated? I believe that at least part of this story is the fact that many of these people probably never had any knowledge about terrorism and no amount of torture will help a person remember something they don't know. Well, to the extent that is the case, when you cut them loose what are you supposed to do with them? Hand them over to the NY Times for interviews or fly them to Syria or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia with a wink and a nod to our "democratic" partners who meet the planes and escort these guys to their new homes? Which is probably going to be 6 feet under some sand dune. Connect the dots. These guys are an embarassment as well as living evidence of all kinds of violations of human rights, international treaties, etc. Jim, as you have already told us, they never had it so good. I think your perspicacity on these matters has already been proven.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:43:11 AM EST
    CA - You have no information that tells you these prisoners were kidnapped. My comments, unlike your totally biased approached, assumed they were either taken in battle or captured otherwise, with separate comments depending on the situation. That's what I call "fair and balanced." As for my comment re so good, why don't you post a link to the original so that we can see the whole comment, and thus have it context, and 100% accurate. Somehow I don't think you will. Whinning is so much more fulfilling, eh?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:45:52 AM EST
    Jim, if you want to explain your comments or try to give context, you are welcome to do so. Otherwise, I think they stand on their own. No context is necessary. Your judgement is well illustrated by your early comment. I will get back to you with a link about the unlikely provenance of at least some of the people who have been "detained" by US troops. Don't have the time to look right now, off to work and finals starting tonight. So I am a little busy. Be patient. You have said you are here to be convinced, but I don't know if your denial can be penetrated.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 07:09:21 AM EST
    Honestly, they should ignore it and send them anyway. The Judiciary already seems to be trying to run Domestic Policy, there is absolutely no call for them to involve themselves in these sort of affairs.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 08:02:25 AM EST
    JP if you ignore the tone of your comment then your either, no choices, just blowing smoke as evidenced by your later post. btw; you need better insult/troll material to elicit a rise on this side (ref'ing your gummy pipe dig). PPJ a stack of facts would still leave you "a man convinced against his will", which is unconvinced. sure glad your not the HMFIC.
    You have no information that tells you these prisoners were kidnapped.
    stop playing with semantics, illegal detention of an individual is kidnapping, the laws are all over the books you go google that. these people are being illegally held, or do you want to ignore the recent court rulings, it's convenient for your cause. don't suggest the lame a$$ activist judges gobble, the actual fact, there judges doing their job. you call it whatever pleasantry pleases you, i call it what it is, illegal, under the laws of this nation in fact/content/purpose and spirit.
    But we don't treat these guys like they are charged with robbing a QuickiMart.
    yeah, that’s your pre-emptive attitude, they may do something to us, lets just hold them forever, paranoid cowardice at best. no significant percentage of these people have been relevantly associated or linked to terrorism, you keep singing the chorus for this type of sh#t and you'll be the next detainee.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:09:29 AM EST
    Outside, So, in your mind, asking you or anyone else to offer the solution to what to do with these people if we decide to let them go is "blowing smoke"? I think you just made it clear that your agenda here is nothing more than insults and invective. Thanks for playing. I'll know not to bother reading your diatribes in the future since you can't even see reality, let alone comment on it.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:33:56 AM EST
    PPJ: You have no information that tells you these prisoners were kidnapped. We know that many of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are kidnap victims - either by the US military, by "allies", or by the CIA. True, we don't know the specifics of individual prisoners. But we do know that not one of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay has been charged with any crime.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 10:21:17 AM EST
    JP your blowing smoke as there is no right answer to this dilemma, the solution would have been to follow the law from the jump-start, oh, the jump-start was illegal (built on lies whichever) too, "what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive". so how do you remedy a bad situation, you get it as close to the original as possible, put them back where you got them from, and yes that is someone else's problem.
    ...your agenda here is nothing more than insults and invective.
    yeah, deflect that to me, but you started with the "gummy pipe" dig, "can put it out, but can't take it", right on par.
    I'll know not to bother reading your diatribes...
    that is an option readily available for your utilization. i find your thoughts amusing and quite harmless, will probably continue my daily chuckle, your post do seem to raise the laugh factor.
    ...since you can't even see reality, let alone comment on it.
    again stop deflecting, your comments and post are from "future world", i act/interact in the world i live in, not the world i wish i lived in. if you can't keep up, don't step up! nuff said!

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:18:42 PM EST
    Outside RE: "jump-start was illegal" You are trying to say that EVERYONE in Gitmo is squeaky-clean innocent, regardless of the fact you have no proof whatsoever. Personally, I'll trust the CIA over your 'intuition' anyday.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:26:19 PM EST
    Kidnapped

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:31:20 PM EST
    http://www.talkleft.com/new_archives/004524.html More kidnapped this one internal and reporting from Nov 2003 that US officials noted kidnapping and bounty-hunting connections to people held at Guantanamo. They never had it so good, right Jim?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:33:00 PM EST
    CA You have posted a link to ONE released prisoner who professes innocense. Youre going to have to do better than that in order to prove "the system" is broken.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:33:23 PM EST
    Try it again in appropriate format maybe: More Kidnapped this one internal and reporting from Nov 2003 that US officials noted kidnapping and bounty-hunting connections to people held at Guantanamo. They never had it so good, right Jim?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:34:17 PM EST
    There are none so blind as he who will not see.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:36:40 PM EST
    No, more than one. I think the Time article talks about 140. You want more? There are plenty of stories to suggest we are engaging in massive injustices and war crimes. Violations of our own treaties. You want high crimes and misdemeanors? How about willfully violating treaties?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:39:07 PM EST
    Could bounty hunting be a problem?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:40:30 PM EST
    Try again: bounty hunting?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:42:25 PM EST
    lasttry

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:44:49 PM EST
    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/after_911/PDF/Guantanamo%20Detainees.pdf#search='detainees%20bounty%20hunters' More?

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 07:02:26 PM EST
    CA Your Time link says in the first paragraph that "some" of the 140 had been cleared as innocent, not all 140. So is "some" 2, 10, or 100? We don't know. Your Time link says "Spokesman Richard Boucher said the US government "does not employ or sponsor" the three [bounty hunters]" I don't know CA, you've managed to prove that a couple of those who were released are apparently innocent. This isn't evidence for a "broken system".

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 07:32:14 PM EST
    The origin of this thread is the fact that a federal judge has issued a restraining order against the govt's plans. This is not an idle or light matter.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 07:33:21 PM EST
    The TRO suggest to me that the Judge has found this to be a broken system. I am sure lots of here know better, but he or she is wearing the robe.

    Re: Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Tra (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 07:47:24 PM EST
    CA This post clearly states that the Judge has issued a temporary restraining order "out of fear for their [the detainee's] safety", not because he has found a "broken system", as you suggest.

    Judge Issues TRO to Protect Detainees From Transfer | 35 comments (35 topical)