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Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:39:33 PM EST
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Bump and Update: Midnight, Friday: Supreme Court has denied House of Representatives request to reinsert Terri's feeding tube.

Update: Abstract Appeal is following the legal developments in the case. [Via Crooks and Liars.]

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Original Post

Terri Schiavo will be dead within seven to ten days. Her feeding tube has been removed.

I just wish she had left clearer instructions so it could be known that this was her choice. It's too bad the final decision has to be left up to judges who didn't know her before her injury, and who rule based upon their view of the credibility of a spouse vs. the parents. Her parents and siblings have my sympathy.

But I also think that the last minute attempt at personalized legislation by Republicans to keep her alive was a slimy move. This was not a case of assisted suicide. It's a question of an individual's right to determine whether or not to continue treatment. We all should have a right to die.

As to the torture issue, I'm troubled by it. Why should it take anyone seven days to die? Why not just give her a shot of something and be done with it? However, as one of my liberal lawyer friends e-mailed me,

I suggest that one could equally well argue that the political process has tortured Terri Schiavo for the last eight years by keeping her alive against her will, in a helpless condition. Tell me which is the greater torture.

If you haven't gotten a living will yet that sets out your instructions regarding life support issues, you should do so soon. Until then, why not put your instructions somewhere on your blog so that no one has to guess what you want?

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    Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed | 119 comments (119 topical)
    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#1)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:24:49 PM EST
    Right - the big thing for me is what Terry Schiavo wanted for herself and according to her husband, this is not what she wanted. Now, I can also say that I had never told either of my parents what I wanted before an unfortunate accident that had my niece and nephew on mechanical life machines. Following that we all did. Up to that point, the only person (family) who I had given any kind of instruction was my husband. My thought was my husband would be the one most likely to 'decide' rather than my parents. I'm not stating this is how I think it should work - these were my thoughts in determining medical situational ethics involving my care in the event I was severely incapacitated. I do have a problem with pulling the feeding tube at a gut level. At the same time, I do think the priority is to grant Terry Schiavo's wishes which apparently were only relayed to her husband.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:36:39 PM EST
    I, too, have a problem with the fact that Terry will die of dehydration---even before she dies of malnutriton. From what I understand it is a horrible way to die. This will always bother me.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:53:50 PM EST
    This whole overblown media frenzy is sad, sad, sad. Everyone is pressured to "take a side", either you want to keep her on life support or you want to kill her. I just say, when you get married, your spouse has control over these kinds of things, not your parents. But that doesn't make it any less heartbreaking. Everyone should get living wills and make their wishes clear to their loved ones.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 06:34:13 PM EST
    It is difficult to die in this country. Everyone is so afraid of getting sued, that you must sign on the dotted line -- especially if you are in a hospital or skilled nursing facility. When my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer 25 years ago, and the doctors said she would die in 2-3 days, she begged for medication to hasten the process. My dad objected, and so did the hospital, so she suffered -- going in and out of coma and pain, until she left the world. Ten years later, my dad's death was different, because my family was more aware and had more help. When my father was diagnosed with galloping Alzheimers (he went from hosting our wedding to a total care nursing home patient in a week), he began to leave notes saying "if but for a vegetable, no!" All of us in the family understood he meant to be allowed to die. Still, one of my siblings did not want to let our dad go. It took several weeks of seeing my dad unable to function -- and a family meeting with a skilled psychologist -- until we agreed, all of us and my dad's wife -- that we would have no feeding tubes, no antiobiotics, no recussitation. When my dad got pneumonia (they called it "the old man's friend"), we provided water and no nutrients, and he died comfortably. It is possible to die comfortably, without intervention, and without a feeding tube. Feeding tubes ARE an intervention, which did not exist 20-30 years ago (and people lived and died just fine, then).

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:28:35 PM EST
    What Misplaced Morality? Of course, the Left supports your right to Life. That is, if you happen to be a convicted murderer. However, should you have the audacity to be an innocent unborn baby, or an innocent human being sans living will - forget it. Your as good as dead, as far as the Left is concerned. My, what a great "progressive" society we've built here... Its no wonder 87% of the fastest growing counties in the US went Republican in 2004...

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#6)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:44:19 PM EST
    Yeah, kinda of like all that regarding the sanctity of marriage, which of course doesn’t apply in the Schiavo case - now does it? This isn’t about abortion. It’s not even about the ‘right to life.’ It’s about treatment choices. If I’m not wrong, the courts have consistently backed up Terry Schiavo’s husband in regard to what she wanted. I agree with TL - it’s a slimy move on the part of those who just aren’t the ones to be talking about morality.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:02:16 PM EST
    Here is what I see is missing from this entire discussion: Why did it take her husband 4 years to tell someone that he "remembered" that his wife did not want to be kept alive in this manner? Trust me, I am a huge advocate for the right of the individual to decide to die. I am a court-appointed guardian for elder adults and deal with these issues on a daily basis. I will fight with all of my strength to defend someone's right to die. That being said, I just think it is odd that her husband did not speak up sooner. The question is not about Terri's right to die, the question is about the credibility of her husband's statement 4 years after her injury.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#9)
    by nolo on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:26:43 PM EST
    Doc, why don't you tell me what you know? And watch who you call a hypocrite, because it might bite you in the ass.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#10)
    by nolo on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:35:42 PM EST
    Actually, here's what I think should have happened. Once Bill Frist issued that subpoena, everything in the world should have stopped. The legal system should have scooped up Terri Schiavo and delivered her on the Capitol steps. No, actually, they should have dropped her straight into Bill Frist's seat in Congress, and they should have asked Doctor "Kitty Kevorkian" Frist what he thought should be done with his subpoena target. They should have asked him how long he expected he'd need her for questioning.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:42:03 PM EST
    Kitt - How can you dare bring up the sancity of marriage in this case? The "husband" has children born out of wedlock with his lover. So much for respect and "until death do us part." He could have easily turned responsibility over to her parents, divorced her and the married the new woman in his life and provided a legal father to their children. He didn't. Why? because there is a huge life insurance policy involved. This is about money. Nothing else.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#12)
    by nolo on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:46:31 PM EST
    PPJ, show me the proof there's a huge life insurance policy. Far as I know right now, the money at issue in Schiavo's case was the proceeds from the malpractice suit, most of which have been expended on Schiavo's care. Any other expenditures have been made with court approval, and have not gone into Michael Schiavo's pockets. Unless you've got more, quit perpetuating urban myths.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:00:29 PM EST
    Nancy Grace interviewed Michael Schiavo's attorney on her CNN show tonight. She could not have been more unprofessional; rolling her eyes, making faces, and goofy hand gestures. Is that what a serious legal argument comes down to these days?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#14)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:08:35 PM EST
    Nope - no more than your slimy comments themselves, Ace. I'm not real keen on pulling the feeding tube and letting Terry Schiavo starve to death. With all there is in medicine today, there are undoubtedly methods to give her a painfree dignified death. I don't know anything about a life insurance policy or the particulars about someone's personal life. Some things are really no one's business. In a discussion between spouses regarding treatment issues - treatment issues is exactly what they are when you're talking to someone about what to do in the event of a incapacitating accident or something of that nature. 'I don't want to live in a vegetative state of any kind. No life support, etc.' My husband and I both work in medicine and early on discussed it. (We have living wills.) In conversations with other couples or friends, it has often been the point of discussion for whatever reason. If you're so damned worried about people starving to death, Ace - take your so-called moral high ground (which is truly just another swamp) and do something about it. Jan Englund of the U.N. could help point ya in a moral direction I'm sure. Oh, wait - you didn't mean it. Righttt.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:31:33 PM EST
    It seems that we have wandered far afield in this discussion. To me the issue is "what does/did Teri want?" The courts over several years of litigation, has found conclusively that she would not have wanted to carry on in this state.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 12:31:26 AM EST
    Nolo, Very insightful. But you've been there, where some of these twit right-to-lifers are just trying to bolster their POSITION and care not one bit about Terry Schiavo's existence. I've been on the both sides of the situation, where I've been the practitioner presenting the "bad news", and also as a son of a man with a terminal illness. When my father was sick, we had a brief, private conversation where I was able to explain his situation to him while he could (in my medical opinion) still comprehend it. He already had an advanced directive, but I wanted to hear his instructions from him. Through his labored breathing he said "No machines". I looked him in the eye and said "If it comes to that, I know what to do." His last words to me were, "Thank you". One of the best perks for my family in having medical personnel around is that none of us will end up like Terry Schiavo. Bill Frist is an ex surgeon. And he knows for a fact that, barring a miracle, Terry Schiavo will not ever recover! And therein lies the rub. He should be ashamed of himself as a medical practitioner for capitalizing on someone else's personal family situation to advance a political agenda. The reason this one extremely rare case is causing such a furor is that the pro lifers are building their arguement for outlawing abortion. ("All life is precious" - GWB). They use what's left of Terry's slowly withering body to promote their cause. Unfortunately, Terry did not have an advanced directive, as she collapsed at home. In CA, if ther is no AD, the legal next of kin is responsible for any medical decisions made on the patient's behalf. The first person listed as the next of kin is the HUSBAND or WIFE. When you give your daughter away in holy matrimony, it means medical decisions too. Or is that not part of the traditional Christian view of marriage?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 01:09:44 AM EST
    Being in a constant vegetative state is not "living". Being heavily brain damaged is not "living". Requiring incessant machine intervention to stave off death is not "living".

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 01:24:31 AM EST
    This woman has been dead for a decade. What bothers me, and this is from self interest, is that in the meantime, her internal organs have become useless for transplant. A person without a working brain is no longer alive. So, all this talk about torture or the best way to die is fantasy. How can a corpse feel pain? As to the four years that it took the husband to express her wishes, maybe he was wishing for an impossible recovery. It took him that long to get over that hopeless dream.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:16:15 AM EST
    Here's a little story about why the right-to-lifers are so full of it. My wife is in a nursing home and her roommate is apparently braindead. I guess the family won't let her die, so she lies in bed. In four years I have never known her to leave the room, and never seen a visitor. If the right-to-lifers want to help someone live, all they need to do is volunteer at a local nursing home. Strange to say, my wife was actually the target of a murder attempt by a fundamentalist who worked as a caseworker for the state. She tried to have my wife forced into a nursing home without food, water, or medication, even though she had a stack of doctor's consults 3 inches thick saying that would kill my wife. So, the thing to remember about the rightwing fundamentalist is, they are LIARS. If you have to deal with them, tape-record everything (don't be embarrassed, they know exactly why you're doing it) and get it in writing. Even then you're going to have problems.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#21)
    by Kitt on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:02:05 AM EST
    "Bill Frist is an ex surgeon. And he knows for a fact that, barring a miracle, Terry Schiavo will not ever recover!" Well - Che, Frist is still a surgeon - he’s still considered a ‘practicing physician’ in that he has his license and is able to administer help .... yeah. It WILL take a miracle because CSF has replaced her cerebral cortex. CSF - that fine stuff that which runs through your spinal column having been secreted by the chorocoid processes from the ventricles of the brain. Yesterday at ‘Crooks and Liars’ this was listed as a reference. A blog written by a Florida attorney regarding Florida law and a dispassionate look at the Schiavo case with a timeline of events, court actions and documents, along with some other interesting stuff.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:19:35 AM EST
    cheerio - "has found conclusively that she would not have wanted to carry on in this state." And who spoke for her? The husband who has cheated on her? Who wants to pull the plug? Kitt - You discourage me greatly sometimes. Try a little logic. If money wasn't an issue, why wouldn't the husband just turn everything over to the parents? He would be free and clear. No, money is the motitavation. serial cat owner writes - "Strange to say, my wife was actually the target of a murder attempt by a fundamentalist who worked as a caseworker for the state. She tried to have my wife forced into a nursing home without food, water, or medication, even though she had a stack of doctor's consults 3 inches thick saying that would kill my wife." Yes, very strange. If this was a right wing nut, why would they want to harm your wife? Doesn't make sense, and without further details, I have a great deal of trouble believeing you. Dearest No Name - "But the Schindlers strongly oppose that statement, saying their son-in-law never legitimately offered the money." Who do you trust?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:53:26 AM EST
    Kitt, He may have a license but when was the last time he was in an OR? Besides, as a CT surgeon, he obviously is familiar with what Mike Shiavo is going through since the mortality rate from complications of heart surgery can be 10% or higher depending upon the risk score. He's still a hypocrite. Speaking of brain dead, TL, how was Bush's bamboozlepalooza rally?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:15:01 AM EST
    Tom Delay and company couldn't give a crap about this woman -I hope they succeed and bring her before congress so the whole world can see what idiots they are

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:24:06 AM EST
    This is an outrage against all people. our so called human rights in the end mean nothing, and once more our government is showing what it really is, thank you Bush and business murder is the name and evil is the game.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:25:43 AM EST
    I'm a physician at a hospital near where Terri resides. Wanted to explain something about dehydration and Terri's impending death. This is by no means the first time it's happened. I've cared for many patients in this situation. Terri is by no means the first or the last. And, in Florida, they do NOT suffer a painful, excruciating death as some have suggested. Most MD's, Terri's included, will have her medicated with small sublingual doses of Morphine, which controls her pain. She'll sleep much of the time. We use artificial sprays of saliva to help moisten her mucous membranes and medicated lubricant for her dry lips. Of the 20 - 25 cases I've overseen, no one looked uncomfortable or in pain. We had a staff meeting yesterday and the question that dominated out discussion was "If Terri Schiavo was a poor black woman, would there really be all of this concern?" I think not. None of the other patients I've cared for got any media attention, let alone the intrusion of Congress! Smells like politics to me, pure and simple! This case has been in our Fl courts for 15 years. It's been litigated to death. I've never encountered a family in such a state of denial. By exploiting their daughter, they're potentially harming other patients, who don't want the government intervening in their dying days. Very sad.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:42:50 AM EST
    Dr. Cook, THANK YOU. People don't realize that we put as much effort into caring for the dying as we do the living. Christ people, let nature take it's course!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    JB Her husband cares about her as much as her parents? You really think so? On one hand, you have the husband who, while still married, starts a new life, a new family, and has two kids with another woman. He waited 4 years to make her supposed wishes known, and stands to inherit some insurance money upon her death. The parents, on the other hand, are just trying to save her life, because they love her. If your idea of 'love' is starting a new family and killing your wife, I don't want any of it. What a Load So you want to see Ms. Schiavo brought before Congress because you hope it will embarrass the Republicans? You sick bast*rd. MD This isn't about Euthanasia or the Race Card. Its about starving an innocent woman to death on the recommendation of her cheating, philandering husband, who has clearly moved on in his life, and stands only to gain monetarily. This woman has no living will, despite which you still advocate her death, based on the 4-years late words of her cheating husband. Che This isn't a matter of taking her off a respirator and 'letting nature take its course'. This is starving an innocent woman to death. You Lefties are sure going to have to fight HARD for the lives of a whole lot of convicted murderers to wash this murderous stain out of your collective conciousness.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#30)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 09:06:03 AM EST
    Horse's A**, Then you better lock us up toot sweet 'cause we do it ALL THE TIME!!! And how many frikkin pictures have to be drawn for you before you understand that Terry will NOT BE STARVED TO DEATH? (Are you an adult, or is this site being overrun by pediatric trolls?) Dehydration is not starvation. Do you get it? This woman has no living will, despite which you still advocate her death, based on the 4-years late words of her cheating husband. And 15 years of litigation. This is another point in which the defenders of the faith are so transparently false. The courts took the decision making about Terry away from Michael many years ago. Terry's fate has been decided again and again by judges, not her legal next of kin (her husband).

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 09:11:41 AM EST
    Horse's A**, I personally have worked with MD's who are proud republicans who have "pulled the plug" on numerous people identical to Terry Schiavo. You can start eating your own now.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 09:48:49 AM EST
    Amazing, isn't it. Right now, there are Republican extremists who are publicly contemplating imposing the death penalty on women who choose to terminate a pregnancy. And there are Republican extremists trying to keep a woman on artificial life sustain who has no brain left whatsoever. Now we know what they really think about women with brains.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:05:01 AM EST
    1. It's all about money. No, it's not. Michael Schiavo has received offers of millions of dollars by wealthy right-to-lifers to cede custody of his wife to her parents. He has consistently refused. 2. Terri could improve with rehabilitative therapy. No. Her brain is dead, all gone except for the the parts that keep her minimally alive with automatic body functions. The cavity where her gray matter used to be is flooded with spinal fluid. She doesn't need therapy, she needs a miracle. 3. Michael Schiavo abused his wife and fears her testimony if she recovers. No. First, he knows she can't recover. Second, the abuse charges are new and lack credibility. If Terri's parents believed Michael was an abuser, why did they allow their son-in-law to live with them in the first years after Terri's cardiac arrest when Michael was taking nursing classes in hopes of helping with Terri's therapy? 4. Michael just wants Terri dead so he can marry his girlfriend. No. He's announced he'll marry his girlfriend when Terri dies, but he could have gotten a divorce (and loads of money) if that's all he wanted. 5. The courts just took Michael's word that Terri would prefer to die. No. Others also testified in court about Terri's wishes, both in agreement and opposition to Michael's claim. The court found the evidence in favor of Michael's statements to be compelling and so ruled. It was not just the husband's say-so. 6. Michael waited years before saying Terri wanted to die. Yes, but-- He and Terri's parents spent years trying to help Terri recover. When Michael realized there was no hope of recovery, he said Terri would not want her condition prolonged. Her parents disagreed, but the courts found for Michael. 7. Terri is not in a vegetative state. Yes, she is. A vegetative state is not a state of unconsciousness like a coma, it is a state of unconsciousness where all reactions are random and involuntary. She has no reasoning function left. Anyone with a video recorder could tape enough footage of Terri's reactions until they have enough to splice together a montage of random noises and reactions that look volitional. Terri's parents are fooling themselves if they think one coincidentally "meaningful" reaction outweighs dozens of nonresponsive actions. Desperation has made them self-deluded. 7. People should educate themselves on this issue before they speak. Yes, indeed. Go to Abstract Appeal for a comprehensive and even-handed run-down on the Terri Schiavo controversy. 8. The ignorant and the politically opportunistic will experience no doubt as they frantically exhort people to "save" Terri. Yes.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:33:54 AM EST
    I want to be shot to death by the local cop's before 70 so i won't be beaten to death at 80 by a government exterminator. by the way schiavo got her tube back.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:58:25 AM EST
    b>From "Bill Frist: Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hide": Like death and taxes, you can always count on Bill Frist's hair to perfect and his politics to be opportunistic. His unprecedented and inappropriate meddling in the case of Terri Schiavo is no exception. Tom Delay is using the Schiavo case to distract attention from his imminent ethical implosion. The Republican Party leadership is using the Schiavo tragedy to energize its anti-choice base. In the case of the Senate Majority Leader, he's abusing his medical credentials and flouting his Hippocratic Oath to help jump start his 2008 run for the White House. As Saturday's Washington Post notes:
    Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a "persistent vegetative state." "I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office," he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. "She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli."
    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#37)
    by Kitt on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:10:56 AM EST
    Che - I just meant he's still a physician. My husband is a pathologist; he may stop working in a lab; however, he will still be a physician. Get what I'm saying? I'm not a fan of Bill Frist; I think he uses his medical practitionership against those who he has been called upon to serve - just like this administration - but that's another thread. I'm glad to see someone identifying themselves as a physician finally spoke to this.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    PPJ, Michael Schiavo will give the leftover money to charity upon his wife's death. link The Schindlers and Schiavo have been feuding since 1993. Each side has accused the other of trying to control Mrs. Schiavo's fate in an attempt to get $700,000 she received in 1993 from a malpractice suit. Schiavo and Felos said they have offered repeatedly to donate to charity the $700,000 he stood to inherit upon her death if only they would allow removal of her feeding tube. But the Schindlers strongly oppose that statement, saying their son-in-law never legitimately offered the money. The court cannot tell Schiavo what to do with the money, but it recommended the remaining money be given to "a suitable charity as a lasting memorial." "We see no evidence in this record that either Michael or the Schindlers seek monetary gain from their actions," the appellate court decision reads. "If anything is undeniable in this case, it is that (Terri) would never wish for this money to drive a wedge between the people she loves." Do some reading before making blanket assertions like "This is all about money".

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:50:00 AM EST
    The Horse: I know that I have told my husband I don't want to be kept "alive" by machines if I am brain dead, so that would be an act of love to follow my wishes. I wouldn't want him to rush into this, because I know he would torture himself over what ifs if he rushed to pull the plug. So waiting a few years seems exactly like a loving husband would do if he was in denial about the condition. At some point though he has to put his wife's wishes above his wish to have her body around. It would be a very hard decision, but again, it would be the decision I would expect my own loving husband to come to. Sometimes it is more an act of love to let someone die than to keep them alive. Implying this is about the money is an insult to all husbands. You have no proof whatsoever of that, especially if it is true that he plans to donate it to a charity (which we will soon see if it true or not, I think it will be true). As to the "other woman" issue, I know that I have given my husband permission to find love again after I die. This would be a gift to me to know that he could find happiness again. And Ms. Schiavo has been dead a long time now. I would not expect or want my husband to spend 10 lonely years just because my parents couldn't accept my death and prevented my husband from disconnecting the machines. I don't know Mr. Schiavo so it is impossible for me to judge his true motives. What I do know is that if my husband and I were in the Schiavo's position, I would not find it unloving if my husband took the same actions as Mr. Schiavo has. Dr. Cooke, thank you for explaining the medical issues of removing a feeding tube. I know that many of us who support a person's right to die are concerned about the idea of someone starving to death or dying of dehydration as we imagine a lot of suffering. I am glad that suffering can be mitigated, and death can be comfortable (though I don't even know if this applies when a patient is brain dead).

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:52:25 AM EST
    Perhaps the reason he does not want to turn her over to her parents is because he truly believes that this is not what she wants. Just because her parents are fighting to keep the feeding tube and he is fighting to get rid of it does not mean that he cares about her less. My mother (who has luckily been much more explicit in her will) any time she is worried about her health or whatever will call me up and tell me to make sure not to let her father make any decisions about her medical treatment/death. So if someday I fight to have treatment denied to my mom does that mean I love her less than my grandfather? Or that I am after her money? I know that many on the the parent's side do not trust the husband's intentions and instead see this cruel, greedy b**tard. All I can say is that none of us know him, know his relationship with his wife, etc., and it is really easy for the opposition to demonize someone so that we all assume the worst. I do it too with my political opponents (like assuming no republicans actually give a damn about terry schiavo and are just using her. There are probably a couple who genuinely care...). Anyway, because we can't easily see someone's true heart, that is why the law just has clear rules for this - the spouse makes the medical decisions if the patient is unable to. End of story.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 12:07:59 PM EST
    Doctor Ace, "Tristero calls 'terminating a pregnancy" the act of a "woman with brains'." Anyone who thinks I meant anything remotely like that should go read what I actually wrote. As for you, Doctor Ace, there are several basic courses in literacy I'd like to suggest you take before you embarass yourself with such a silly comment again, Obviously, you can't read the simplest English sentence without distorting its meaning beyond any conceivable meaning.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 12:13:24 PM EST
    FredDawes where did you find a cite the food tube had been reinstated - I cannot find that anywhere

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 01:17:12 PM EST
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Mrs. Schiavo's parents actually encouraged Mr. Schiavo to date after she went into a vegetative state. This is rather damning on the part of the people who draw their arguments off of Mr. Schiavo's supposed lack of faith to his wife. Perhaps he remained married because otherwise he would have less say in what happens Mrs. Schiavo?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 01:37:33 PM EST
    If Congress is unsuccessful in imposing its will here (after all, they do know better than her husband, the many physicians who examined her and the judges who heard the evidence), perhaps it should just send in the military and "shock and awe" that state into submitting to big government arrogance the Republicrites pretend to loathe.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:00:20 PM EST
    Tristero You call 'terminating a pregnancy' the act of a 'woman with brains'. I know plenty of women with plenty of brains who would never terminate a pregnancy. What about all those women who want families? I guess they're just stupid, as far as the radical Left is concerned. Che Nice to hear you splitting hairs over starvation and dehydration. You're right; dehydration is soo much more humane. JB So you want your husband to find love after you die. Guess what - Terry isn't dead yet. Personally, I'd like to see a living will in a situation where the husband has started a new family and has had more children, waited 4 years before making his wife's supposed wishes known, and stands to inherit insurance money. Julie You're right; if Mr. Shiavo divorced Terry, he could go on with his life, but he couldn't kill her. And he couldn't get the insurance money. Nice huh - refusing a divorce to legally kill somebody?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:30:54 PM EST
    Horse's A everything you post has been refuted earlier in this thread --

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:36:10 PM EST
    Load Nothing I have posted here has been refuted by anyone, including you.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a "persistent vegetative state." "I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office," he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. "She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli." So Bill Frist saw the carefully edited "Terry Lives!" video, and that makes him more of an expert than 14 years worth of numerous doctors' testimonies, who actually physically interact with Terry. And one last time, it is not about the money. Michael has pledged the leftover money to charity, and repeatedly refused million dollar offers to divorce his wife.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 02:47:22 PM EST
    The post by Tony B and the links do an excellent job --I guess you never bothered to read it

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 03:23:58 PM EST
    I have just lost my brother last night. He suffered major cardiac arrest and was without oxygen to his brain long enough to leave him brain dead. Ironically, he had just purchased long term care insurance. However, his wife and I both knew he would NEVER NEVER NEVER want to be kept alive in a vegetative state. He died last night and I am so very proud of his wife for making this decision, even though there were no WRITTEN instructions from her husband. How dare the parents of Terry Shaivo and the rest of the religious right deny her the dignity of passing on. How horrible this has been for her husband, who knew and loved her best? What the hell is this country coming to when the Repugs and TV evangalists dictate to us how to conduct our lives? I AM OUTRAGED!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 03:49:03 PM EST
    Boobie, please grieve, dont politicize.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 04:55:21 PM EST
    PPJ, pull your head out. "And who spoke for her?" She did, according to every court that has heard the issue. Why is it that you and your republican heroes always know better from what you saw on tv news? "[W]hy wouldn't the husband just turn everything over to the parents? " Because to do so would be to go against TS wishes, according to the husband, and now, the many courts that have actually reviewed the evidence. At least acknowledge the possibility he actually has been fighting for ten years (using the settlement money to do so) in order to carry out HER wishes. "No, money is the motitavation." Sure, know-it-all Nanny. Ignore the facts and just keep saying whatever supports your fantasy. Again, why are you so damn certain you and DeLay know better? "Who do you trust?" Um, how about the professional medical personnel that have repeatedly examined her? How about the courts that have been hearing the matter for ten years? Not that I actually "trust" them either, but I'd sure trust them before any of us outsiders, and certainly before some pol on the hill. C'mon, PPJ, you can't possibly believe that the US Congress should get involved in this SINGLE, PRIVATE, STATE issue, unless you are simply incapable of independent thought and blindly follow whatever DeLay & company say. Can you imagine if Congress took it upon itself to decide every "right to death" case where there were no written instructions? They'd do nothing else (not that it would be a terrible thing!) Even the liberals are saying the feds have gone too far. And many conservatives agree. I know if either of the Cal. Senators go along with this, they're not getting my vote next time. Libertarian is the way to go. (Hi Pig!)

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 04:58:30 PM EST
    Roscoe Domino - You are missing the point here. If Terri's wishes were to never be placed on a feeding tube and her husband knew that, he should have NEVER EVER allowed the tube to be inserted in the first place. Also, while I am not a medical professional, I do not believe that Terri has ever been diagnosed as brain dead. While there is significant damage to her brain that she will never recover from, she is not "brain dead".

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 05:10:40 PM EST
    Aside from all the other comments here, I have one thing to add-- The far right tends to let itself be governed by religious morality--from the topic of gay marriage to the anti-abortion movement. So despite all the legal debates (guardianship, right to "life", that sort of thing), what about the religious ones? Her parents don't want her to die because they are profoundly Roman Catholic. They delude themselves that she is "conscious" because of her random movements, and the whole debate has been taken up by Pro-lifers. But Terri Schiavo isn't an "unborn child" with the potential of humanity, of becoming a person who has the potential to "live". She is a withering body--the physical remnant of a person with what makes her a Person irreverseably replaced by spinal fluid. She doesn't really have a quality of life, considering that she is not actually there. If her parents are so religious (and it sounds that Terri had been religious too), wouldn't they want her to have a whole body and sound mind up in Heaven and be happy in Paradise rather than in suffering or limbo in her current state? Since she is not committing suicide, that shouldn't be a problem. That goes for the religious right too. If they are so spiritual and believe that Terri is going to heaven, isn't it selfish on their part to keep her back from being released from 14 years of suffering? What benefit can actually come to Terri from this form of "living" in the indefinite ammount of time that may pass until she can actually die? From a completely secular point of view, she is just gone, but if you look at it spiritually she is trapped from moving on, and hasn't had free will for 14 years.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 05:50:33 PM EST
    If Terri's wishes were to never be placed on a feeding tube and her husband knew that, he should have NEVER EVER allowed the tube to be inserted in the first place. Put yourself in Michael Schiavo's place. Your wife has told you numerous times she wouldn't want to be kept alive artificially. She suffers severe brain damage, and is unable to feed herself. The doctors say recovery is unlikely, but they can insert a feeding tube to keep her alive. What would you do? A few years go by, you still hold out hope your wife might recover, even as the doctors agree that the condition is permanent. You finally admit to yourself your wife won't ever get better, and would not want to be kept alive like this.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:00:34 PM EST
    What would I do?? I would respect my spouses feelings and put my own feelings aside and never place the feeding tube in to begin with. That is what you are supposed to do. That is your responsibility. Example, my father-in-law has a living will, he knows that his wife could not give the order to either refuse to have the tube inserted or have it removed, so he has named me as his agent. As hard as it would for me to make that decision, that is what I would do. Because that is what SHE wanted. Isn't that what his whole argument is based on???

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:13:35 PM EST
    I would respect my spouses feelings and put my own feelings aside and never place the feeding tube in to begin with. Well, that is a difficult decision indeed. I don't fault Michael Schiavo for not acting sooner to honor his wife's wishes. We can say we'd do something in a certain situation, but if we actually ended up in that situation, we might behave irrationally. For instance, I am against the death penalty for criminals. But if someone close to me was murdered, and I know who did it...I don't know what I'd do. We're all passing a lot of judgement on Michael Schiavo, even though NONE of us know him or what he went through, and it's sickening.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:18:04 PM EST
    Must... ignore... Doctor... Ass.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:20:30 PM EST
    Open Letter To the Friends and Family of those who don't want us to pass judgment on a man who blatantly ignored the advance directives of his wife: Please do not trust these people with your advance directives, because they clearly don't grasp the concept of ethical responsibility. Sincerely, Vaquera

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:20:24 PM EST
    Lisa, do not be so proud to show off your ignorance. The woman is brain dead. That is what every story except what the wingnut press is putting out.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:34:21 PM EST
    Actually, read the definition, ***. "Brain death is defined as the irreversible loss of all functions of the brain. It can be determined in several ways. First - no electrical activity in the brain; this is determined by an EEG. Second - no blood flow to the brain; this is determined by blood flow studies. Third - absence of function of all parts of the brain - as determined by clinical assessment (no movement, no response to stimulation, no breathing, no brain reflexes.)" Correct me if I am wrong, but last I heard Terri is still able to breathe on her own. Therefore, Mr. Brilliance, she is not brain dead.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:14:17 AM EST
    Horse with no name "You call 'terminating a pregnancy' the act of a 'woman with brains'." I most certainly do not. It is mind-boggling that you would deliberately rip my words out of context and distort my meaning beyond all comprehension, Anyone can read what I wrote and see that I said nothing of the sort. "I know plenty of women with plenty of brains who would never terminate a pregnancy. What about all those women who want families? I guess they're just stupid, as far as the radical Left is concerned." That's right. I'm a radical leftist, I think all pregnancies should be terminated, and any woman who carries a pregnancy to term is stupid. By the way, horse, that was sarcasm. Look, I realize that Republicans depends upon brainless Americans to vote for them, but the obsession that rightwing extremists are bringing to the Schiavo case is way beyond the pale. By the way, horse, that was deliberately tasteless humor of the Lenny Bruce variety. Of course, as with Bruce, what I am highlighting is just how obscene and cynical DeLay and the Bushes are behaving. And my comment is nowhere near half as sick as Volokh's advocacy of torture, but hey, I'm just a liberal, not a pervert.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:35:53 AM EST
    I don't know Tristero, your 10:48am post pretty clearly linked "women with brains" to those who choose to terminate a pregnancy. Read it again, and then ask yourself why you may have given someone that impression. As for Volokh, I believe he's a Libertarian, not a Conservative. Regardless, invoking him is irelevant to the topic on this thread.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:52:24 AM EST
    Doctor Ace, Just go back and read it. What you do is point your mouse on one of the arrows that is on the right of your browser. You can also "scroll" there. Horse - congratulations, you realized I used the word "choose!" Yes, women who choose to terminate a pregnancy have brains. That in no way implies that women who choose not to terminate a pregnancy are stupid. Except to those who misread, surely deliberately, and who quote out of context, certainly deliberately. As for Volokh being a Libertarian and not a Conservative, you must excuse me. Just as you have a problem distinguishing between a moderate liberal and a radical leftist, occasionally I find it difficult to see much of a difference between a Conservative who advocates torture like, say, the Bush people, and a Libertarian who does, like Volokh.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:58:50 AM EST
    Tristero. You still haven't told us what you meant by that comment. But it seemed pretty clear to me, no obsfuscation required. You are the one arguing to starve (or dehydrate - Che) Terry Schiavo to death. You are the one advocating torture.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:13:15 AM EST
    I saw "The Sea Inside" just 3 days ago and suggest everyone see it. It's a love story. The quadriplegic's family all loved him dearly but, in the end, because they loved him, they let him die. This Schiavo (which, in Italian means slave) thing is about hate, judgment and condemnation. There's no love in these "compassionate conservatives".

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:50:46 AM EST
    The Horse with No Name Allowing someone to "starve to death" in the manner provided by medicine is really not that bad. Most people actually still allow hydration via IV fluids because it allows for an individual to receive pain medication to the end. I do agree with you that withholding fluids is much more painful.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:22:39 AM EST
    My advance directive says that I want aggressive medical treatment for 72 hours, then if there is no sign of recovery (as my wife perceives it), my wife is supposed to get the doctors and machines away from me and let me die in peace. Hydration by IV, no feeding tube of any sort. Palliative measures only. This is going to be hard to pull off because once the doctors and hospitals start aggressive treatment, they do not want to stop. I don't know if we are cash flow devices for the medical system once we are all hooked up to feeding tubes and in a vegetative state or if it is the ethical consideration about removing treatment models that are in place - it looks like harm, as in the "first do no harm" axiom. I suspect that both ethical and commercial considerations are driving this stuff. But I don't care about that, I want my advance directives to be followed and my wife's requests to be honored. She knows me better than anyone, including my parents. I do not want Congress taking an interest in my end of life medical care.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:28:40 AM EST
    Very well said Conscious Angel.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 12:25:24 PM EST
    Horse with no Name: Let me make this as clear as I possibly can. I am struck the fact that the Republicans' perverse obsession over Schiavo is all of a piece with the oft-expressed attitudes of the extreme religious right towards women. A woman with a skinny body and, literally, no brain, has beccome, apparently, the gold standard for Republican womanhood. Now, normal people with even the slightest understanding of biology would say that a woman whose brain has all but entirely deteriorated, whose head is filled not with cortex and thoughts and emotions but only with the slopping of spinal fluid, was for all intents and purposes dead. Not Republicans, though. Oh no, this archetype, this beaming example of what a woman really should be - silent and with no thoughts of her own - must be kept "alive," as an example of what the right truly reveres. On the other hand, I note that women who think for themselves are considered a serious threat to the right. So much so that some of the more rabid -or more publicly honest- Republicans have even suggested that women who choose to terminate their pregnancies -for reasons completely unspecified - should be eligible for the death penalty. This kind of discourse is what's called, in the biz, a "wry observation." It can also be described as "biting" and, by people who find it so, "nasty humor." It is also tasteless. My intention is to highlight what an obscene circus the Schiavo case has become since Republicans have adopted it. And to mock the sheer lack of moral compass that Republicans possess these days. Since you seem to have difficulty reading certain kinds of material, I will now drop the mockery. Should external support for the body of Schiavo be stopped? That is a private decision. I also believe, as a fundamental moral principle, the state has no right to have an opinion in cases of this sort. Ever. If external support is stopped, what should be the most proper way to proceed? I have no idea and no one does outside those with a direct connection to the particular case. Again, these kinds of dreadful decisions are private ones. The state has no right whatsoever to intervene. Now, as for my advocating torture, horse, you know that is a filthy lie. And you knew that when you deliberately quoted my earlier remarks out of context and distorted their meaning. That kind of ad hominem attack is the height of intellectual dishonesty, even if it is oh-so- typical of extremist discourse. To make such a silly, McCarthyite-like charge is a sure sign of insecurity, that the actual argument is weak. Indeed, yours is as weak as it gets. You omit the rather horrible fact that her brain is gone. You omit the fact that this situation, given the doubts about her wishes, is at best an awful moral dilemma for everyone except religious fanatics, that there are tens of thousands of men and women of exceedingly deep faith who have confronted this awful situation and resolved it in many different ways. This is not an occasion for partisan posturing but that is all you are doing. Your resort to such tactics is proof that you don't take Schiavo seriously, or any part of her family's feelings. All you want to do is use Schiavo as an excuse beat up "liberals." When this case serves its purpose, you'll just move on to the next opportunistic exploitation. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:11:54 PM EST
    Horse with no name: You are lying again. I pronounced no death sentences on anyone and you know it. You know I specifically said that the Schiavo issues are a private matter. That is ALL I said and yes, I really, really believe that it is private. I have held that opinion since I was ten when my father, a physician, first described the awful dilemmas people face in situations just like this one. If Rice is the Republicans' gold standard for womanhood, God help both women and Republicans of any gender. Liberals, for one thing, think there's no reason why a woman needs to forgo marriage, let alone at the very least a lover, in order to sustain a fulfilling career. Now being a liberal, I have no problem with 50 year old virgins. Whatever floats Rice's boat in private is her own business. My only point is that I'm frankly astounded that any Republican would seriously make the case that a 50 year old virgin was THE exemplar of womenhood for their party. At that rate, we'll be free of Republicans probably within my lifetime. Sounds self-destructive, if you ask me. (She is a virgin, yes? Wouldn't want her suffering from any of those nasty STD's that so preoccupy you, would we now, horse?) And everyone, regardless of politics, should be revolted at the sheer incompetence that characterized Rice's performance as National Security Adviser which included not a little bit of lying. Doctor Ace, I write in English. But much to my dismay, when you read my posts, you seem to think they are in a foreign language which means the exact opposite of what I explicitly wrote. Equally distressing is that, again, you quote me entirely, hilariously, out of context. And, your response after my quote is entirely incoherent. I have no idea what the connection is that you see to what I wrote. I won't begin to hazard a guess as to what you meant to say in your own private language. Until you can read and understand on some elementary level this rather noble tongue, I see no point in responding to anything further you might write.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#72)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:05:07 PM EST
    Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader BS. I've been in the CT surgery area for 15 years and never heard of Frist before he ran for congress.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:27:14 PM EST
    You really can't help lying, can you? I NEVER disparaged Rice's presumptive virginity. Just the opposite. Quote: "Now being a liberal, I have no problem with 50 year old virgins. Whatever floats Rice's boat in private is her own business. " As for your earlier lie, where exactly's the line about my imposing death sentences? It can't be what you quoted (this time in full but thoroughly ripped out of the useful context in which the entire post was written). What I actually said was crystal clear and I can't believe you want this repeated, although I will happily do so: We now know exactly the kind of women Republicans treasure above all: Those with literally no brains. Since you seem never to have encountered the specific rhetorical device I was deploying, I repeat: this is called a "wry observation" or "biting, nasty humor." I am using it in a hallowed tradition of American satirical humor. I invoked Lenny Bruce earlier, but Mark Twain would be an equally apt invocation. (In case the name is new to you, Twain was a master of such techniques and had an especially tart tongue for preening pious pimpernels like DeLay and Bush.) To continue, the purpose of my remark, which was deliberately tasteless, was to draw attention to the tastelessness and sheer hypocrisy of the right wing extremists who have made a disgusting partisan circus out of a wrenching personal tragedy. There is no way in hell any honest person could possibly construe anything in that as the positive advocacy of a death sentence. That is entirely your extremely dishonest or, conversely, utterly humorless and uninformed construction of what was obviously a vicious comment designed, in its entirety, simply to humiliate, mock, and confound right wing extremists and their dupes. As mentioned, mean my remark certain was, but hardly comparable in moral viciousness to the open advocacy of torture which the Bush administration and its apologists indulge in. You will get nowhere calling me an advocate of death sentences. You're either lying, unfamiliar with the American tradition of political humor, or both. Now, I have a question for you: In your opinion, is the question of what to do in situations such as vegetative states, artificial extension of life, etc, etc ALWAYS one in which low-level cns functions must be sustained by any means necessary? A follow-up: Suppose the living will is crystal clear but conflicts with the religious beliefs of the patient's kin and the background in which s/he was raised. Do those kin have the right to have the living will annulled?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#70)
    by sal on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:31:36 PM EST
    it is odd to me that in our country it is rare for anyone to die natually it seem also to me God wanted poor terry to join him 15 years ago but our medical people seem to want to play God with the support of the whole pro life group i really dout that there has been many pro lifers sitting holding terry hand while she has laid there day in day out, week in week out,year in year out or will they after this issue is forgotten and old news that to me is the sad part of all this issue blessings

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:31:41 PM EST
    who are these people that want to keep the tube in against her wishes? Despite many ruling by several courts, people are screaming to keep her alive against HER wishes. She had a right to choose not to be a veggie, no one has the right to make her live as one. Go out and protest the financial predatory tv ministers and leave them alone.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:37:28 PM EST
    Horse's Just giving the Republicans what they want -- and if the result is their embarassment not my problem I and my ilk are not the ones doing this

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:17:24 AM EST
    uh yeah

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:30:26 PM EST
    Tristero: <> This is crazy, do you have names or a link where I can read about this? I am new at this... I meant about the republicans that suggest the death penalty.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:42:34 PM EST
    It really disgusts me that Terri Schiavo has become a political ping-pong ball. Bounced back and forth. The right to lifers want her alive, for what. I dunno, just to say they won-again. Her parents want her alive-for what to visit her everyday? The Schindlers will outlive her, and after they are dead who will love her as much as they did. Of course her husband wants to move on with his life. We'd all like to finally grieve for a spouse. My god, we expect more out of people than we we are willing to put out there ourselves. How can we have such unrealistic views on people. I recall that Newt Gingrich left his wife for another woman while she was dying of cancer. Terri will NEVER recover. She is a vegetable. she is dead already. her body has been through enough. it is tired and so is everyone involved in this. If her parents had let her go long ago, they'd have had years to grieve. But yet everyday they see her laying there. I watched on CNN yesterday as they were showing where her feeding tube was, they lifted up her gown and you could see her exposed tummy. I would hate for people to have to bathe me and clean me for the rest of my life, i would hate for someone to think of me as a burden. That's not what anyone wants. I just wish a journalist would grow some balls and as one of those crazy right to lifers "what would YOU want?" And it's sick-these psycho-christians will do the craziest things for a fetus or a brain-dead woman- but ask them to sacrifice any of their time or money to after school programs or helping disabled youth and they don't have time. I guess the lives of underpriveliged youth or the kids in the ghetto aren't as invaluable or priceless

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 04:17:27 PM EST
    I would have pulled the plug on my brother who I loved dearly and was in a similar condition if I could have. How dare you self righteous pieces of sh*t,you red-white-and-blue jihadists,who cherish a vegetable and not only dont bat an eyelash but celebrate when Iraqi kids are blown to pieces, talk about reverence for life.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 08:07:13 PM EST
    Long post all in caps deleted. Please don't shout.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 08:10:49 PM EST
    Thank god we're not far from the time when ANYONE regardless of age or infirmity can and WILL be kept alive indefinately - after all,if this expression of reverence for life keeps one more woman from having an abortion its well worth it.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 08:55:55 PM EST
    What can I do to help Terry? Can I write to the judge? There is more than a resonable doubt that she is not brain dead. This girl will die a horrible death and her parents are dying a horrible emotional death.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 22, 2005 at 09:25:41 PM EST
    Wow! So many opinions... Do we ever ask ourselves "why am I so concerned with other people lives?" Do I pour so much of myself in their state of affairs that I leave nothing left for my own life? Hummmmm! With that said, I would like to state that yes it's intriguing to put your two cents in other's state of affairs; kinda takes our mind off our owns doesn't it? Well in this case, I believe that Terry married her husband because she trusted him. She trusted him to make right decisions in her life, during her active life, so who are we to take that trust away from her now. If it is meant for Terry to survive, God will make a way. God ordained married, His word states that for that reason, a man should leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife. Therefore, mother and father, please allow Terry's husband to take lead in this situation. Have faiththat God can carry her through this, if it was meant for her to live. I pray that the pain of all involved will someday cease and be replaced by loving memories of Terry,

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:09:15 PM EST
    Looking at the photos daily video footage of Terry on every news broadcast makes me wonder: if Terry's eyes were not open, and her face wasn't frozen in that perpetual smile, would we think of her differently? If the look on her face was one of horror, pain or anguish, would so many believe that she would want to "live" in this state? I for one am horrified that our government has interjected itself into this tragedy. Recent events and comments by right-wing politicians show that they are using this poor family to rally their conservative base, and to fling mud at our judiciary. It is the judicial branch's responsibility to determine what Terry's wishes were, and they have done so time after time after time.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 07:50:14 PM EST
    Non-hypothetical question and in a nutshell-- Is the Schiavo case about the right to die or the right to go on living?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 11:42:06 AM EST
    This whole case really angers me. The politicians and judges who vote against reinserting Terri's feeding tube should all be executed in the same manner. If I choked the crud out of each one of them I would be locked up for a very long time. But its ok for the to contribute to the death of another person and go on with their corrupt lives. Their justice will be served upon them very soon if they show no penance for their action. And her sorry louse of a husband should join them. He is just a greedy bastard hanging on to cash in on the big chunk of change. His punishment will be more severe.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 12:06:09 PM EST
    Dan: "Non-hypothetical question and in a nutshell-- Is the Schiavo case about the right to die or the right to go on living?" Neither. It's about proving that DeLay, Bush, and all the other right wing extremists in this government have both the will and the means to rip up any law they disagree with for any reason whatsoever. They will do this again in other areas. And sooner, I'll wager, rather than later. VOR-you can't fool me, Eugene Volokh!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    First of all as a nurse who has seen endless people young and old lay in a helpless state for months and years let me tell you that it is a very hard thing to see. Families keep there loved ones alive because they cannot let go. These patients become contracted in there hands, arms and legs, they may get bedsores, there chest secretions becomes thick because they are no longer able to cough them up, so therefore they may be suctioned. They no longer have control over there urine or bowels so someone must change them. I am not saying who is right or wrong, but I can say that dehydration is not a painful way to die, and I have seen this numerous times. Please let us not judge the desion of her husband.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 05:49:08 PM EST
    My mother was diagnosed as being brain dead and sent home to die with a thirty day feeding tube, we took her to a rehab a year later and she learned to talk and have a desent life, we had 9 wonderfull years together after that, and for some one brain dead, she could spell anything you wanted her to, amazing for a brain dead person. She felt pain and hunger, they wanted us to starve her to death. I would not hear of that, a feeding tube is not like being on a breathing machine, people who are fine in almost ever other way can have feeding tubes. I think the people who want to take the feeding tube out should try starving their selves to death and you never know some day they may go through what Terris going through, and feel ever bit of the pain, if god wanted her to stop breathing she would on her own. My father stood by my mother, he was not out with other women, id hope to think parents would do the right thing by there children, un like a man, like her husband who couldnt even be faithfull. Id hate to be that judge and all the rest of the people that was for removeing the tube on judgement day.Im ashamed to be a part of this society, in todays world in America, a country that kills there on........................

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 05:53:01 PM EST
    My mother was diagnosed as being brain dead and sent home to die with a thirty day feeding tube, we took her to a rehab a year later and she learned to talk and have a desent life, we had 9 wonderfull years together after that, and for some one brain dead, she could spell anything you wanted her to, amazing for a brain dead person. She felt pain and hunger, they wanted us to starve her to death. I would not hear of that, a feeding tube is not like being on a breathing machine, people who are fine in almost ever other way can have feeding tubes. I think the people who want to take the feeding tube out should try starving their selves to death and you never know some day they may go through what Terris going through, and feel ever bit of the pain, if god wanted her to stop breathing she would on her own. My father stood by my mother, he was not out with other women, id hope to think parents would do the right thing by there children, un like a man, like her husband who couldnt even be faithfull. Id hate to be that judge and all the rest of the people that was for removeing the tube on judgement day.Im ashamed to be a part of this society, in todays world in America, a country that kills there on........................

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 05:53:47 PM EST
    My mother was diagnosed as being brain dead and sent home to die with a thirty day feeding tube, we took her to a rehab a year later and she learned to talk and have a desent life, we had 9 wonderfull years together after that, and for some one brain dead, she could spell anything you wanted her to, amazing for a brain dead person. She felt pain and hunger, they wanted us to starve her to death. I would not hear of that, a feeding tube is not like being on a breathing machine, people who are fine in almost ever other way can have feeding tubes. I think the people who want to take the feeding tube out should try starving their selves to death and you never know some day they may go through what Terris going through, and feel ever bit of the pain, if god wanted her to stop breathing she would on her own. My father stood by my mother, he was not out with other women, id hope to think parents would do the right thing by there children, un like a man, like her husband who couldnt even be faithfull. Id hate to be that judge and all the rest of the people that was for removeing the tube on judgement day.Im ashamed to be a part of this society, in todays world in America, a country that kills there on........................

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#91)
    by Patrick on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 10:48:21 AM EST
    Last night I was listenening to airhead america radio and they brought up that "the conservatives and the republicans are on the ban wagon for marriage, but that they are hypocrites." They said the reason that they are hypocrites is because Michael Schrivo is the husband of Terry and he has the right to decide whether she lives or dies." Well let's consider what kind of husband he is. Michael Schriver is an unfaithful, adulterer. He broke covenant with his wife to stand by her side for better or for worse. Michael this is the worse part of the contract, but you abandoned your wife. Now we as a nation are endorsing the inhumane torture of this dear precious woman. You know what animals have more rights than Terry Schrivo does. If a dog, cat, or horse were to be found in an inhumane environment where they are malnourished, neglected, being starved, having no water, those responsible for such inhumane treatment would be in jail. But what do we do, we let a judge and an adulterer go home at night and be with their families while this woman perishes. Truly many hearts in America have grown cold. Truly we live in a culture of death and I say to all American's who support the demise of this woman, shame on you, you're pathetic and you're cowards.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#92)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:02:48 AM EST
    What kind a husband he is doesn't necessarily affect the law. Kinda reminds me of newt Gingrinch who divored his wife when she was in the hospital under going treatment for cancer. Terri, the human being, has been dead for a long time. All that remains is the empty container which was designed to pretty much function on its own. What makes us human is our ability of cognition, to think, to feel, to imagine, to sense etc. Thats gone now, and given that her brain has drastically shrunk, its not coming back. If your cat or dog lay motionless on the floor peeing and crapping all over itself and the floor without being able to respond in anyway to your voice etc and showing no signs of being "alert" what would you do? The situation is horrible. Politicizing it has made it more ugly more perverse and serves no one except the self interests of the politicos. Too bad you don't have 1/10 of this sensitivity towards people errantly injured or killed by cops

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 12:43:12 PM EST
    I have really mixed feelings about this whole case. I would like to know what people's feelings are about when it is "not" murder to remove a feeding tube. For instance, in another 14 years will it be murder if Terri's children (who will most likely then be her custodians) remove it? In 30 years? I mean, these are tough questions. Very sad -yes! But murder? Also, I have sat with two concious people who died of lack of food and water in the past three years. One was an aunt who was 98. The other my grandmother who was 99. Neither were on medication for other life-threatening diseases. Their bodies were just shutting down. Starvation conjures up images of starving children and adults and torture. But, for them, it was a bodily function. They were not "hungry", but it was the most comforting, natural way for them to go. They were not denied food, but their bodies would not accept it. They were coherent for weeks and were uncomfortable because of the beds, so we did what we could. Luckily, for us, they could make their wishes known, despite a couple family members who thought they should be treated. If they couldn't would this be murder?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    I apologize! I meant an individual's children. Terri will not have children making this decision... My "generalizing" was getting away with me!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 05:51:11 PM EST
    i think its horriable that they are starving Terry if Bush says abortion is wrong then why doesnt he do something about terry she is still alive there is still hope for her and the husband could give a darn about her its all for the money if he loved her wouldnt he want to keep her alive wouldnt he have hope for her and he would be at her side every single day not wanting to leave her side for a second but he doesnt all he cares about is for her to die

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 05:53:17 PM EST
    Soccerdad, What kind of man or husband he is does matter. Is he a man of integrity, a man of character, a man with morals and a sense of right and wrong, all these things do matter. By observing these things I would say that he possesses none of these for if he did he would have remained faithful to the one whom he pledged his love. Now let's look at what you said here. "Terri, the human being, has been dead for a long time. All that remains is the empty container which was designed to pretty much function on its own. What makes us human is our ability of cognition, to think, to feel, to imagine, to sense etc. Thats gone now, and given that her brain has drastically shrunk, its not coming back." Let me ask you a question, are you the Designer that knows the intricacies, the depths, the meanings, and the origins of life?How does your supposition on what constitute being human relate to others with mental disabilities. What if they don't have all of these faculties, are they less than human? Are they merely the walking dead? Is the altzheimer patient dead, the dimensia patient dead, the MS patient dead, the parkinson's patient dead? If they are then are we to conclude from you logic that they should be put to death also? You forgot something very important, her soul. She has a soul. And as long as her body has life that soul is present, irregardless as to whether all the other faculties are working or not. You and I cannot see what is going on with respect to her soul. So unless you are God, why would you toy with a life that you did not create but He did? You are walking on dangerous ground.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 06:12:58 PM EST
    For those worried about the morality of pulling the feeding tube and letting this poor woman finally go... This interview with a Jesuit ethicist may reassure you somewhat on that point. Also, Here's some myths and facts about this case. Finally, can we stop with the bad-mouthing of either the parents or the husband? We haven't been in their exact shoes. (Though comments I've seen from people who HAVE been through something similar are a heck of a lot more compassionate than some comments I've seen here.) Seems to me like her husband went from several years of hoping that she'd get better to accepting the fact that she wouldn't. Her parents, on the other hand, can understandably not stand the idea of losing their daughter, and cling to hope in every movement or sound she makes. But it doesn't change the fact that her cerebral cortex, the part that housed her personality, memories, and self, is gone. Yes, there's more to us than our bodies, but sometimes that means letting go of that body.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 06:28:55 PM EST
    "Let me ask you a question, are you the Designer that knows the intricacies, the depths, the meanings, and the origins of life?" Soccerdad couldn't possibly be the Designer. Everyone knows that George W. Bush is the Spirit Made Flesh again. Another clue is that Our Spiritual, Moral, and Political Leader wears nothing but Designer clothes, suits custom-made to the tune of several thousand dollars a pop. Look ye no further for thy Designer than Crawford, Texas, for there, on his not so humble ranch, he abideth. Polishing his fine character to fine sheen. Only he -or rather, He- can fairly decide who gets tortured, who profits handsomely, who gets jailed with no due process, who gets away scot free with murder or egregious fraud. Only He can decide which laws to obey and who gets killed, kills, or endures unto Eternity.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 06:53:20 PM EST
    Oh, and not to say that doctors don't make mistakes. This column in the San Francisco Chronicle has a round-up of first-person accounts, and there a few "miracles" where it turned out the person had been incorrectly diagnosed as terminal. So I'm happy to hear of people who got a second chance at life, and I'm glad that a lot of doctors looked at Terri, and that her husband and parents tried for years to make her better. But the years of rehabilitation couldn't help, and the doctors who actually were in the same room with her, and the CAT scans, all told the same sad story.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#100)
    by Patrick on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 07:33:38 PM EST
    Man tristero, you sure don't like the president much do you. Why don't you vent somewhere else. We're trying to have a productive conversation here.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:26:49 PM EST
    Terries wife just wants some easy money. Cant we just find a way to get this dude in jail?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 04:31:22 AM EST
    If it were me, Please pull the plug, Take our settlement and follow the dreames we talked about. I'm sorry god has plans for me. Come on people would you want your husban or wife to be happy if this happend to you.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 07:01:52 AM EST
    As if there aren't enough issues in the Schaivo case, two more have come up that have me reeling. First of all, I don't want a court or government entity sticking its collective nose in any life decision I make but the fact remains that the life decision Schiavo made is in dispute. Hence the need for an outside determination.As a judge I know once said, "If there is a dispute and you are not able to resolve it, someone in a black robe will have to." That said, I am APPALLED that our Supreme Court has proven itself to be the biggest collection of gutless wonders and chicken s--ts on this planet. (Well, I guess it's a toss-up. The state supreme court pulled the same stunt) What the hell are they being paid for (and VERY VERY generously with our tax money) but to make difficult decisions? They have abdicated their responsibility-and not for the first time. Gee, maybe the next time my boss puts a pile of work on my desk, I'll just give it back to him and say, "Sorry, I don't want to deal with this. I'm remanding it back to you." I wonder how that would go over... It doesn't even matter in this regard what your belief is in whether Schaivao's tube should be pulled or not. We should all be appalled at the Court's moral cowardice. Some say, "Well, in not making a decision, they made a decision." Bull-loney. They simply are too scared to deal with it and that's HOW they get out of their responsibility and run from their fear. "Remand." Secondly, I heard on Nancy Grace's CNN show that Schiavo is NOT being given morphine for pain control. Again, regardless what your view is on the Schaivo case, we should all be appalled and outraged. A friend of mine who has experience with Hospice said, "Well, Hospice always pushes for no food AND no water and is reluctant to provide pain control unless it makes THE FAMILY of the suffering patient feel better." Excuse me--make the FAMILY feel better? What about the patient?! (Hospice is another bunch that apparently should start getting some scrutiny). Some will say, "Well, Terri's PROBABLY not feeling any pain (despite collective agreement that dying of thirst is one of the absolutely worst ways to die). Medical professionals also USED to say that people didn't "feel anything" while being sedated and undergoing surgery until patients came out of the operation reporting that they were in horrible, agonizing pain during the whole procedure because the anasthetic didn't quite kick in-- except to the point where the patient was paralyzed and couldn't relay the agony he/she was going through. What the Schiavo case is doing-aside from making all of us confront issues of life and death- is to clearly show the citizens of this country the appalling state of affairs in our legal, judicial and medical arenas. Bozos and moral cowards are running things, folks, and I'm scared as hell.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 08:57:42 AM EST
    Dan do you actually understand what country you live in? We have sepration of powers here in which the congress does not get to force the courts to change their decisions. There is no way the congressional bill was going to change anything and congress knew it. The only reason it was passed was so people like you would get mad at the supreme court. The only chance to save Terry rested with the Florida Legislature and they decided not to change the law. If they had the courts would have been happy to redo the case. Now you don't see the republicans villifiying the Florida Legislature because they don't care about the Florida State Legislature they care about packing the supreme court with patsies. I am fairly convinced that republicans actually want Terry dead. It is hard for me to understand how the Bush brothers somehow could not come up with the extra 3 votes needed to pass the bill in Florida. People hate Terry's husband because they mistakenly belief that he stands to benifit from this mess while the real people who benifit will be the right to life fund raisers. To whom Terry dead is worth far more than Terry alive.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    Puleease. I don't buy all this Republican conspiracy paranoia. Yes, there are separation of powers and there are also state's rights, but when those powers collide or conflict, there is also a multi-level appeal process in effect that in this case allowed the Schindlers to plead their cause to the Supreme Court on a Federal constitutional (underlined) basis (i.e., is denying Terri food and water a violation of her constitutional rights to life (underlined) liberty and pursuit of happiness. The Republicans are playing (and yes, this has become a game and they're not the only ones playing it) by the ground rules the courts themselves (underlined) have established and yes, the Republicans are probably exploiting the Schiavo cause to show the Supreme Court in their true cowardly colors. But I'm not going to shoot the messenger or look for some dastardly plot to excuse that cowardice. And all this aside, the fact that this woman is reportedly not even receiving so much as a morphine shot (an issue you did not address) is absolutely reprehensible. Blame the Republicans if that helps you sleep at night but the fact remains that the Supreme Court is our nation's highest authority and they blew it.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#107)
    by glanton on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 10:26:24 AM EST
    Dan: There is sense in everything that you observe, but you're drawing the wrong conclusions from it all. The ethical issues surrounding Shiavo's case ought to be considered separately from the political games going on around that. One can indeed see clarly that the GOP actions have had nothing whatever to do with Terri Shiavo and everything to do with scoring points with a base that never wanted to be used in such a fashion. Evangelicals are as repulsed by the posturings of Delay and company as anyone. One can see all this and will if one has eyes, and can at the same time take whaveter view their conscience dicates on the Shiavo case itself. For all the rhetoric, Shiavo's family is waging one battle within itself, and the Government quite another. More and more this case is starting to look like a modern day _Antigone_. Now I think I know what Aristotloe meant by pity and terror.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#108)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 01:14:09 PM EST
    Glanton-- Yes, I believe the ethical issues of the Schiavo case CAN be separated from the political process, BUT I trust you understand it's a whole new ball game when a petition with a lower court -pick any lower court- is filed. That filing politicizes the issue "ipso facto" for the simple reason that the lower courts themselves are political animals, and there is rarely an issue nowadays that does not become politicized. That's the pity. It doesn't matter whether you're fighting a traffic ticket, you want your child support increased or you want your daughter to go on living. The lower courts-in addition to being political animals, subject to political influences- are also now media animals a la Court TV. It makes the politicization all the more sensational, all the more, well, politicized. Aristotle's response to Plato that tragedy must invoke a catharsis of pity and terror certainly applies here, absolutely. My point is that the tragedy goes above and beyond the actual torment of Terri Schiavo, the Schindlers and even Mr. Schiavo. The ultimate tragedy is that we have a Pontius Pilate replay going on here. We have a court of final authority in this country whose JOB it is to make an ethical ruling on an issue based on LAW, and-as much as possible- separate and aside from the political firestorms, special interests and hysteria that propelled this petition to its Bench. I mean, these folks are there for life. They can piss off their conservative/liberal cronies by voting the "wrong" way but beyond that, each member is accountable only to his/her conscience. Since the Court "declines" to rule on THIS isssue which is tearing the Schiavo family AND the nation apart, then what issue IS appropriate for them to look at? And, I ask myself, where are the individual consciences, much less the group conscience of the Court itself? Nowhere to be found. And that's the terror.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#109)
    by glanton on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 02:06:39 PM EST
    Dan: Let me see if I can get this straight: you're lampooning the SCOTUS for not making a ruling, right? I would reply to that by asking if you don't think their taking the case would have opened the door for floods of previously state-controlled medically-based litigation pouring into the highest federal court? The point then seems to be that the Supremes believed that the Florida Courts properly considered the evidence put before them and rendered rulings based on that evidence. For me both the true pity and terror built into this case has to do with what is happening within the Shiavo/Schindler family itself. That they came to such a pass that the rest of the nation became involved is heartbreaking and has caused a scar on all of us that won't soon heal. The benefit is that so many are now making out living wills, so that their own wishes will be as known as possible. Personally, i wish very much that Michael Shiavo had seen the pain Terri's parents were experiencing and just walked away--but it's easy for me to say that because I didn't know Terri at all and he knew her, supposedly, better than anyone. Wives share wishes and feelings with their husbands that they would never articulate to their parents. That's just a reality we have to presuppose; but if Michael is disingenuously abusing that reasonable presupposition, manipulating it to achieve some below-board agenda, then he's one low bastard, and deserves nary a drop of spit were he on fire. But in truth we DO NOT KNOW. Period. We have to take his word. What recourse did we have but to believe him, exactly? Ought we to have aspired to Creon's arrogance and imagined ourselves fit to dictate the most private phenomena in family affairs?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#110)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 07:03:01 PM EST
    Glanton- 1) So the Supreme Court should not make a ruling on any issue--including if not especially on a life-and-death-issue-- for fear that such a ruling might increase their caseloads in the future???!!! 2) The Supreme Court did not render a ruling, based on any evidence old or new. They simply declined to MAKE a ruling (despite the fact that the new petition was clearly a federal issue and therefore in the S.C.'s jurisdiction)and ergo, had NO OTHER RECOURSE but to remand the case back to the lower courts. If the S.C. had either substantiated (i.e., affirmed) the lower court's ruling OR had overturned the lower court's ruling, THAT would have been a bona fide RULING. Kapische? They actually did one better than old Pilate. Even though the buck stops with the S.C., they wouldn't even touch it. That way, there's no blood to wash off their hands later on. 3) Re Michael Schiavo-I don't really know what to believe for sure, either. You're right, I guess, we HAVE to believe what we have been allowed to hear--if for no other reason because Judge Greer refused to unseal all those records and affidavits.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:46:17 PM EST
    look people. this isn't about if she should live or die. this is about who should decide. this isn't a joke and why is simon and the lefties treating her like she isn't alive? she isn't some porn star and stop treating her like one. she is in serious danger of dying and it isnt fair. LET HER LIVE OR LET HER DIE PEACEFULLY!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:33:50 PM EST
    Mike Reagan: Dad Spared Cruel Death. Michael Reagan compares Teri Schavo's condition to that of his father, Ronald Reagan. In his nationally syndicated column today, Michael Reagan wrote: "Based on what the pro-death contingent is saying about Terri, that because she doesn't have any real quality of life, that she can't feed herself or can't take care of herself or speak coherently, that she should be put to death in a cruel and inhuman manner. In his final days, my dad, Ronald Reagan, had no quality of life, could not feed himself or take care of himself, communicate in even the most rudimentary way, and lay bedridden and mute, a terrible burden on Nancy. Should I have told Nancy to stop feeding my dad so he could die and she could go on with her life? And if I had, would not the nation have risen up in justifiable outrage and demanded that his life be preserved until God called him home?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    Who decides? In this case the Georgia federal district court and the lower courts have decided. Dan is right. The Supreme Court chickened out. As far as the Supreme Court goes you might as well have a bunch of chimpanzees sitting on that bench. The decisions of the lower courts were based on Michael Schiavo's "evidence". From what I have read and heard that evidence first came to light four years after Terri suffered brain damage and after Michael began separating himself from the marriage-- seeing other women. To me, this evidence may be valid but it is potentially self-serving enough to be looked at with skepticism. To my way of thinking, if we can't be absoutely certain of Michael's evidence, the courts are jumping the gun by pulling the plugs. I am all the more disturbed by evidence of Terri suffering multiple broken bones while in the nursing home-sometime in 1994, I believe. Why would this information be withheld from her parents until 2002? And there's all this brouhaha about an autopsy--which by the way is in pretty bad taste to discuss now, since the woman isn't even dead yet. What will the autopsy reveal anyway? That she had several broken bones ten years ago? We already KNOW that. That her brain is mush? We already know that, too. But it sure makes good p.r. for Michael!! I actually didn't think he had anything to hide until his lawyer said Michael's authorizing an autopsy to prove he has nothing to hide! Dan made another interesting point. What's with Greer supressing all those statements and affidavits? There's just too many unanswered questions and secret records and unexplained past trauma to Terri Schiavo to really know what to believe her wishes really were. I think the courts just want Terri to die so that this whole problem with all its unsolved mysteries and unanswered questions and political hysteria all dies with her. And it's a good way to punish her parents too, for raising a stink in the first place.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:38:02 PM EST
    In January 1993, Michael Schiavo won a malpractice award of $1.6 million from the hospital that treated Terri. He was also personally awarded $600,000 for loss of consortium. In his testimony, Michael spoke of his love for his wife and his intentions to honor his wedding vows for the rest of his life and to use the award money for Terri’s care and rehabilitation. Indeed, Michael repeatedly assured Bob and Mary Schindler that he would seek rehabilitation therapy for Terri once he had obtained a settlement. A month after Michael received the money, the Schindlers approached their son-in-law to remind him of his promise. This led to a heated argument, with Bob and Michael yelling in the hall outside Terri’s room. Michael stormed off and vowed that he was going to see his lawyer and that Bob and Mary would “never see [their] daughter again.” If his concern was for his wife, do you think he would have left her in this so-called "vegatative state" all these years? Obviously he has blown through the money and needs to collect on her life insurance. He certainly didn't "honor his wedding vows" either. If he wanted to be with someone else, he could have divorced her and let her parents take responsibility as they begged him to do.This is nothing more than legalized murder. Slowly starving that woman to death is cruel and unsusal punishment. We treat convicted murderers better than that! Speaking of that, I keep hearing about her husband receiving death threats. Do these people not realize that if they are thinking about killing him, they need to do it before she dies? If custody reverts to her parents, this could all be over. What he is doing amounts to murder. When he moved on with his life and had a family with another woman, he gave up any right to make decisions about her life. I have heard that he will collect on her life insurance. Sounds like motive for murder to me.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#116)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:12:00 PM EST
    Newton-- Timing, as they say, is everything. You made some interesting remarks re Michael Schiavo which makes his motives all the more suspect, especially when you consider the timing of his receiving the big bucks and the nursing home injuries sustained by Terri- within a year. Wasn't it also in 1994 that Michael Schiavo first stated for the record that Terri would not want to go on living in this state? Does anyone know if this assault was ever investigated? And the results? This brings to mind what happened to my co-worker's father when he was in a nursing home. My co-worker stopped in to visit and found his father unconscious and had turned blue--the wheelchair had apparently rolled over or had BEEN rolled over the feed line of the man's oxygen tank. Rather than deal with nursing home personnel, he called the police and filed an official report. Surely with such extensive injuries, a police report must have been filed on behalf of Terri. If it wasn't, that would lead to still more questions as to why. I must add, however, that I draw the line at a rushed or otherwise "hit" on Michael Schiavo. To quote Miss Marple, I don't approve of murder and I'd remind you it was the court's order to pull Terri's feeding and water tubes in response to Michael's petition. Even if Michael is a villain here-and we really have no solid proof of that--the courts -whose job it is to separate fact from fiction- chose to take him at his word re Terri's word. The issue isn't really Michael Schaivo. The issue is--did the courts --and for whatever reasons this remain a mystery -- choose not to thoroughly (underlined) investigate Michael's claim of Terri's wishes AND fail to determine what exactly happened to Terri in that nursing home? Nursing home incompetence and brutality is legion. Michael could be completely innocent as far as Terri's injuries are concerned. Would these suppressed statements and affidavits perhaps shed some light on these questions? Tom B's last paragraph is certainly thought provoking. That's why I'm curious--did the police conduct an investigation re Terri's multiple broken bones, why were the parents not informed of this until 2002 (good point, Tom B.) and perhaps most importantly, were the courts aware of any of this? We can't really assess Michael Schiavo's motives OR the motives of the lower courts until those questions are answered. (You already have my opinion why the Supreme Court did not get involved).

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#117)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:44:09 PM EST
    blah blah the alleged broken bones issue has been known to the parents for three years --you can bet this issue has been taken to court The sister was interviewed on Fox News and said they were made aware of alleged "bone scan" in 2002 try getting your fats through soemthing other than your tinfoil hat

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#118)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    I am in such disbelief over how Terri is being treated. I don’t agree with the fact that they took the feeding tube out, but I can understand IF that IS what TERRI wanted. What I do not understand is the fact that they are denying her ICE and WATER! That is CRUEL! There is absolutely NO PROOF that this is what she wanted besides what her “husband” says. Spouses lie all the time. Some spouses even take out life insurance policies on the “other half” without their knowledge, and then kill them to collect money. I am not saying that this is what Terri’s “husband” did, but it is possible that he is lying about what Terri wants or wanted for whatever the reason! Michael Schiavo moved on! I am not saying that he should have waited all this time and never moved on, but when he did that was giving up all rights as her husband! Think about it, if he had found someone else when she was in her pre- accident state and had children with that person it would be considered ADULTERY and he couldn’t or shouldn’t be allowed to decide her fate then, so why is he being allowed to now when it has been approx. 15-20 years and he HAS moved on to someone else and had children with that person. Why are Terry and Michael still considered married? I don’t know that I would want to live in a vegetative state either, but I wouldn’t think it cruel or selfish if my parents wanted to keep me alive anyway because they LOVE me! I know as a parent I would NEVER be able to let my daughter starve to death or die of dehydration, and as a spouse if the parents wanted to keep medical interventions to keep their child alive, who am I to decide to let their baby die? I wouldn’t care if my daughter was a vegetable, she is my daughter and I couldn’t just sit there and watch her die knowing that she would live if given a chance! That is like saying if “you” had a child with a severe disability or handicap that “you” should just let them die because they won’t be able to have what “YOU” consider a life worth living! Or anyone with a severe disability or handicap who cannot take care of themselves should just be left for dead!! How cruel and inhumane are we?? It is a feeding tube for crying out loud! It’s not like she is on a life support system. She breathes on her own! If she is going to die, she will die with the feeding tube. She has survived all of this time and now that she wakes up and is fighting in her own way, we want to kill her? That is so messed up! What everyone is saying is true, dogs are treated more humane than Terri and it isn’t different because the dog can’t express what it would want and neither can Terri! It is just her “husbands” word against hers and she can’t defend herself. (so why are we so quick to let her die?) The way we put dogs to sleep when they are suffering is humane, letting someone starve or dehydrate is NOT!! Let us pretend that Terri supposedly NEVER said one way or the other what she wanted; now imagine that you are in her position and you DID NOT tell your spouse that you wouldn’t want intervention and he had clearly moved on and was fighting to let you die as much as others were fighting to keep you alive? You would want your rights just like anyone else, and so would your family! Why should we take HIS word for it? I feel so bad for Terri and her family. I truly believe that she knows what is going on even though she can’t communicate. All I can say is that Michael Schiavo’s new partner better watch her back and hope that she is never in that situation where he is deciding her fate! I would NEVER be with some guy (that’s putting it nicely) that was fighting so hard to let someone that had been so close to him die! To the doctors and nurses writing here totally against Terri living, just because someone is in the medical profession does NOT mean that they know everything or are always right! From being a patient, I can tell you there are some real cruel, sorry excuses for doctors and nurses out there that are just plain STUPID and UNsympathetic! It is scary to know that we have to put our lives in their hands! Who knows if we’ll catch them on a bad day, or heaven forbid ask them a question that makes them mad you’ll be risking your own treatment! Especially beware of asking questions in pre-op that might upset them, who knows what they will do to you in surgery when you can’t defend yourself!

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:25:42 PM EST
    TERRI has a choice, her parents & family want to care for her in this state of life she was in. Smiling,jestureing,makeing noises to thier delate & her pleasure it seems she was happy to live in this condition,so why was this a problem for??? They did'nt ask Michael for anything so all he had to do was sign some legal papers to set him free from all obligations what would be the harm in this since he saw she lived as long as they fed her for 15 years. She did not want to die it seems to me any more than any retarded child or an elderly person that becomes chidlike so at this point according to your polls we as a society must put anyone with brain damage out of thier (MISERY) even though in Terri's case she seems to be happy. With smiling eyes & a broad smile lighting up when she hears familiar voices. She can hear,she can see, she can move I thought these things were signals from the brain ????? Am I wrong??? If I am then all these parents with retarded children,children hooked together by their heads etc.or water on the brain or any other brain damaged person that lives in an unnatural state of life should be put to death. This case is setting a" PRECEDENT", for all brain damaged persons young, old or in between.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#119)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:49:24 AM EST
    I have to say that this is bringing up a lot of painful memories for me. My mom went through this a few months back. However, my mom had not been shy when it came to telling everyone (and I mean everyone) that she knew what her wishes were. It was very hard to watch even though we knew that it was her decision and we all wished that she would rally. The difference here is that we constantly asked her if she wanted something to drink and the hospice assured us that if she wanted food or drink then they would give it to her. I'm so torn in this case. While I strongly believe in a persons right to a dignified death, I sometimes have to stop myself from wondering why the husband just didn't step out and let the parents take over. I keep reminding myself that I would not have done that for my mom had someone stepped in and volunteered to take her. It wasn't about who gave her care, it was about honoring a woman who was always very strong in life and who never wanted to live if it meant being in that state (speaking of my mom and not Terri here). The thing that tears me is that I can't believe that she didn't make these wishes known to anyone else (and no, I don't know that for a fact, I'm assuming). Then again, my mom was in her 70's and Terri was only in her 20's so maybe that isn't something you discuss much with friends. As far as the husband moving on with his life. I don't know why he didn't seek a divorce years ago-that is troubling. I don't condemn the man for starting a family, but I don't know why he wouldn't divorce first. Could the parents have tried to seek a court-ordered divorce?

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#120)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:34:41 PM EST
    I am hapy for Terri in hat she hass found peace. It is a a sign for the remaining baby boomers to realize who shall find peace for them selves the government or themselves. I my self can not say that I am medically techonolocically terminology to determine what should or should not be include inmy my personal living will even thouh]gh I have my own and one which has been on file with a hospital which I had been admitted to. I wonder which will procedeeed the other and under what circumstancences. I truelyly believe. Teri had a chance and the medical community failed her der due to the lack of funds and personal equipeped to deal with nerological damage which may have helped Terri in her recovery. She was left to a system which had no intentions of helping her recover yet only provide her with the minimun survival needs. Her courage to survive was seen in her last days of existance without any substance. Her Fifteenyears prrior are an example of how our existing social sytem maintins our dissabled at a minimal maens of survivival; which to me is is torture in i its owm means. To dehydrate and decompse necessarry oragans of substanstance and expect the brain to control a state of on pain a is absurd. The cells in the body individually react and are not able to recieve the brain impulse which eleviates all piane. Mrs. Shrivo was in pain and frightenenlly was unable to espress the fact she was in pain. This to me is sickenining. My wost fear is to be in a nerologilcal state im which I am unable to commumicate to others; hence unable to ask for help and preceiving a world of constanstant fear. I give credit t to Trri's familly and friends. I do not belive she would have been able to survive without thier pray, attenttion and unconditional love. Her brother was exeptional. Every girl desires a man who is strong enough to maintain a sense of suport and family love. I wish the state recognized the fact the Terri's Husband had no Authorization as a gaurdian due to his cohabitation (w/children) whith another womam. He should have been found a felon in florida had is rights taken away and our righr given back. Unfortunatently tis was more than Terri it was political it was about who makes the descision. In this case in advertantly it was the Government which goes along with Social Securitty Reform And ironically against both Bush'd Right to Life Position.. I imagine the may lead to a deabate over Gay righhts and the rights of cohabitaiting individuaval rights to manage another rights to privacy.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#121)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:44:40 PM EST
    Father, Forgive them. They know not what they do. Teri, May you rest in eternity with God. I love you. We would punnish people for doing this to an animal. What a mixed up twisted time we live in. The end must be very near.

    Re: Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed (none / 0) (#122)
    by Holly on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 05:45:11 AM EST
    i think it's wrong that they had her starve like that it was wrong and also that the husband did not respect the wishes of the parents he should have taken their feelings into consideration. I mean how would he feel if his child was in that situation. Well I guess we all know where he stands with his feelings.

    Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed | 119 comments (119 topical)