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Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:17:35 PM EST
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Have we just become immune to the injustice of Bush's war on Iraq? In Europe, tens of thousands turned out to protest today on the second anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. In London alone, 45,000 protested as they marched from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square.

Consider all that the Administration has done in the name of bringing freedom to Iraq:

  • Detained hundreds of persons at Guantanamo for over two years without criminal charges or access to lawyers
  • Engaged in interrogation techniques the Geneva Convention and civilized world deem to be torture
  • Tortured and killed prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Bagram
  • Shipped detainees to countries that practice torture and hid them from the Red Cross
  • Sustained a loss of life of 1,500 plus American troops and thousands of Iraqi civilians.
  • Spent billions of dollars when our economy at home is suffering and social security may topple from the deficit.

Consider that Osama bin Laden is still at large.

How much longer will the American people remain complacent about the unjust war being waged in their name?

Update: Politics in the Zeros has pictures and podcasts from the March 19 protests in L.A.

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    Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe | 48 comments (48 topical)
    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:39:21 PM EST
    and who are the people doing the protest? Friends of bin laden being led down the same street as the bush boys only by some-other master and by some-other political/race propaganda but led by the same agenda, see it for what it is.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:29:24 PM EST
    Wha??

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 09:15:30 PM EST
    Right. All the pacifists love Bin Laden, the mass murderer and mastermind behind 9-11. At least pretend to be rational, Fred.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#4)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 10:37:41 PM EST
    Well, all those years ago several troglodytes discerned in our vast, superior, technological world a weakness, and they exploited it. In our pain and anger, we fail to see how primitive we remain. I can't add anything new to this discussion; I'll only repeat something old: demanding pain and blood and anguish from our perceived enemies sacrifices our humanity, compassion and grace.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:08:55 AM EST
    Immune? There were at least 700 major protests in the US this weekend. In Los Angeles, something between 2,000 and 5,000 marched through Hollywood, spirits high, with great support from passing cars. Another completely non-violent mass protest in Los Angeles. Did you see it on CNN? We marched past their offices, but the liars weren't home. Will you read it in the Chicago LA Times? Their reporters were busy covering their arses. We aren't primitive, Darryl. The revenge in USPNAC's evil realpolitik murder is pure racism. Most of it is installing airbases to make a LOT of money, and has BUPKIS to do with security. Indeed, in order to hold power, Bush has to commit further acts of treason against our national security. The old story of the shark that has to keep moving (but that's a myth). Bush outed Valerie Plame, destroyed the front she shared with many other agents; C. Rice burned the Al Qaeda mole the British developed, who was reportedly in cellphone contact with terrorists inside the US preparing an attack. Rumsfeld's failure to plan for occupation, or to write ANY orders to guard the UN-secured dumps in the country, released vast amounts of dangerous materiel to hostiles. And Bush's failure to guard our ports, or the chemical balls, and his decision to allow Mexican semitrucks to drive throughout the entire US, with only 2% inspected for safety, or bombs. These facts are known to some of us; when they are known by more of us, Bush will be driven from power by his own party.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#6)
    by Andreas on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:09:46 AM EST
    How much longer will the American people remain complacent about the unjust war being waged in their name?
    Supporters of the Democratic Party should not blame the American people. It was and is the Democratic Party which enabled and enables the gangsters to wage this criminal war. The Socialist Equality Party distributed this leaflet in the USA: New political strategy needed to end the war in Iraq Suppurters of the WSWS distributed this leaflet in Brussels and London: Unite European workers and youth against militarism and social reaction Statement of the Socialist Equality Party and World Socialist Web Site, 18 March 2005

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:27:08 AM EST
    More lies is not going to help, Andreas. The Iraq Resolution vote was 25/25 in the Senate, and 60%/40% in the House, with change of leadership specifically because of that opposition. John Kerry and every other major Dem other than Joe Lieberman considers the Iraq invasion a great violation of the mandate of that resolution, which did not, btw, authorize invasion. John Kerry SPECIFICALLY outed USPNAC's airbase scheme and repudiated the policy in the first debate with Bush, before 60 million watching Americans. You ignore the anthrax attacks on Democrats, Daschle being called a traitor (etc.), and the death of Paul Wellstone. And you ignore the fact that the Dems ARE the representatives we have in the US gov't -- you have FAIRIES. Ours are far from perfect in a far from perfect system, but ours are actually real, while yours are nothing but a pipedream.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:47:05 AM EST
    How long will the American people remain complacent? I don't know, but I do know that the way things changed in the 60's was to have constant, annoying protests. Can we do that now? Would BushWorld make laws to stop it? Anyway, it's up to you younger folks to step up to the plate now; us old guys will write letters and make calls and sign endless petitions. Unfortunatley, many of us are too old and crippled to "take to the streets", but our thoughts, hopes and prayers are with you young people who will be most affected by this criminal administration.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:33:12 AM EST
    Bush is in office by defrauding the public and remains there by the same technique.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#10)
    by Andreas on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:38:44 AM EST
    @Paul in LA: Precisely which factual statements written by myself or published by the WSWS do you consider to be false ? Maybe you should start with these two articles: Kerry rejects call for Iraq troop withdrawal Defeated Democratic candidate on “Meet the Press” By Bill Van Auken, 1 February 2005 Congressional Democrats line up behind Bush request for $80 billion in war spending By Kate Randall, 29 January 2005 You wrote:
    you ignore the fact that the Dems ARE the representatives we have in the US gov't
    It is a major political problem in the USA that the working class has not yet broken politically with the Democratic Party. It is one of the main aims of the WSWS to help woking people to do that and to build a revolutioary party against all those opportunists who are still supporting the Democrats.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 06:27:29 AM EST
    rw - Well, the pacificists weren't demonstrating against the Moslems. Sometimes things speak for themselves. Rik - Not the same, bubba. This rime around there is the Internet and cable news. Those protests will be reported for what they are. PIL - If you think calling Daschle a traitor is wrong... Why do you think the right finds no common ground with the left? et al - The radicals on both sides are destroying any chance we have of fixing some very bad, very basic problems. Listen to youreselves sometimes.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#13)
    by john horse on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:13:12 AM EST
    mark, Its not the number of Americans killed or the dollars spent that is wrong with Bush's Iraq war, but its the light and transient reasons for the war If a war is being fought for light and transient reasons, even the loss of 1 life is too many. The reasons that Bush gave for Iraq turned out to be misleading and that matters. Even if Iraq becomes a democratic country (which I would like to see), this result would not justify the loss of lives or the dollars expended.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:17:12 AM EST
    Henry, is right and to rw, what is rational, come on, rw we do not live in a rational world or a world that understand's that meaning. Bush and all the other have us all up for sale and the contractors of total control are in the hen house of nation. "think about that one"

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:25:09 AM EST
    Poet: I will be curious to see if you still are a socialist when you are married with three kids, paying taxes and have a mortgage.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:30:52 AM EST
    Poet - The problem is that you are not willing to give up anything. (Not that the far Right is, either.) So nothing is getting really "fixed." To that end, I note Social Security. If anyone truly doesn't understand that it is a Ponzi scheme that is approaching the end, they aren't rational. How do you fix it? On the left we see more taxes, and more taxable income. Neither work because we are, like all Ponzi schemes, running out of customers (people to pay in).

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:32:12 AM EST
    Andreas - Do you only know what you read in the WSWS? Take one big look back at history, and tell us why Socialism is not working. Ace - If this struggle is so important to you why the h*** aren´t you in Iraq yet?? Pack your s**t and volunteer for duty, ASAP!

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:45:42 AM EST
    Yeah, yeah; The same gaggle of misguided, who were against: Pershing Missiles were for: The Nuclear Freeze were for: Detente and nice-nice with Breshnev Carried around placards of UncleHo. Supported assorted miscreants such as: The Red Brigades, PLO, Sandinistas, etc. Almost brought down: The French 5th Republic in '68. And on-and on.... They will never learn that they have always been and will forever be, in the wrong side of history.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:46:25 AM EST
    I don't get it. Fred suggests the thousands of protesters are "friends of bin laden." I debate the rationality of the comment, noting those protesting the war in Iraq (which incidentally had nothing to do with bin laden -- even GW did not suggest as one of the many changing reasons for invading was to capture bin laden or supporters) probably do not back mass murder, and Jim responds that "Well, the pacificists weren't demonstrating against the Moslems. Some things speak for themselves." WTF?? Because these protesters were not denouncing an entire religious group, the "things speak" to the notion the protesters ergo support Osama? Do you just make up whatever comes to mind? And Fred, because we don't "live in a rational world", being irrational is now legit and responding to it is naive? I give up. I am permanently leaving this site. The conversation always ends up being not about the topic at hand, but an endless and fruitless attempt to correct the wingnut trolls who insist on picking a fight on every topic no matter what and will never concede an inch, justifying their spew on the grounds "we don't live in a rational world." There is no point to arguing with logic like that. Goodbye.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#21)
    by wishful on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:47:37 AM EST
    How much longer will the American people remain complacent about the unjust war being waged in their name?
    When it affects them personally, as in "Then they came for me."

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:29:14 AM EST
    not only is doctor ace stupid, he's also a coward. kind of reminds you of bush

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:29:28 AM EST
    I give up. I am permanently leaving this site.
    rw, don't, then they win, that's the wingnut strategy, constant barrage of nonsense that drags many (i often) to their level of insignificance, then they beat you up with experience. just readjust your filters.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:33:00 AM EST
    Andrea, it is good to see you are still giving voice to socialism (i used to go under the name, tony cochran). As a fellow socialist I share your concern about the spinelessness of the democrats currently in Congress. They seem highly inept. For instance, there are 202 dems in the House, and yet only 47 of them voted AGAINST the recent 80 billion dollar scheme to continue the occupation of Iraq. Opposition party my hairy white a*s!? TalkLeft, some sectors of the U.S. public are very active AGAINST the war in Iraq. For instance, Andrea and myself. In my small, rural, conservative town (grants pass, oregon) around 50 people showed up on january 20th to demonstrate against the Bush agenda. Although many Americans are concerned with New Age-esque consumeristic "wealth-care," millions more seem to be more concerned about health care, jobs, and housing. Jim, you make a point that I agree with. It is time that people living in the U.S. start to "come together, right now" -- but first we will have to get "over ..." Bush and his racist, homophobic, classist policies of war, gay-bashing, and destruction of social programs. To do that our nation needs, and seems to be getting, a radical generation of educated anti-authority youth (like myself, I am 18). I have seen a major influx of high school students into progressive politics within the last year. Temporary burst of radicalism? Maybe. Long-term liberal change in society (akin to the 1960s)? Maybe. et al. I agree with Rik, it is time that people of generation Y begin the long struggle against corporate power, and draconian government authority. Let's "Come together, right now, over Bush "!!!

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:33:17 AM EST
    Maybe I'll quit this site myself after I get by this first time contact. Listening to the Sunday Talkies today, Rumsfeldt dominates in explaining "new Europe", McCain defends his non-positions. Meantime DeLay is exploiting the Terry Schiavo situation and baseball's steroid "scandal", in Truman's day it was called a "Red Herring". Yesterday in Central Park there was supposedly a peace "Demonstration" if it happened the media did not notice. Dean makes no headlines, meantime. Are we doomed?

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:00:27 AM EST
    Fred Dawes! I finally figured you out. You're an anarchist! We were looking for you at the San Diego demo but my brother figured you all got rounded up by now. Good to see you're still around.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 12:23:15 PM EST
    Rik: "Unfortunatley, many of us are too old and crippled to "take to the streets"," Tell that to Maria, the 85 year old who protests at the LA Federal building every week. Tell that to any number of seniors who I see every single time we march. Tell it to the handicapped who turn out in their motorized carts, one with a carousel of signs that rotates above his head. "Posted by Andreas: "Precisely which factual statements written by myself or published by the WSWS do you consider to be false ?" "It was and is the Democratic Party which enabled and enables the gangsters to wage this criminal war." "Kerry rejects call for Iraq troop withdrawal" Indeed, Kerry did not call for troop withdrawal, presumably because of the risk of civil war. At this point in the crisis, he might have a different opinion. "Congressional Democrats line up behind Bush request for $80 billion in war spending" It is politically impossible to oppose most of the funding demands for the troops. You would know this if you had any political power in our system of gov't. To blame the Dems is to play at naivete. "It is a major political problem in the USA that the working class has not yet broken politically with the Democratic Party." That is hilariously untrue. Tell that to EVERY SINGLE LABOR UNION in the country. "It is one of the main aims of the WSWS to help woking people to do that and to build a revolutioary party against all those opportunists who are still supporting the Democrats." You distort the facts in order to make that appeal, and that's why I called it LYING. Sixty % NAY in the House, with change of leadership, during a time of unprecedented political and social threats, is not 'supporting the invasion.' It is NOT supporting the invasion. So you're lying about that; exaggerating the level of support in order to paint your stalking horse. 25 Dem senators opposed, and still oppose, those who are still alive and in the Senate that is.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 12:26:37 PM EST
    ""It is a major political problem in the USA that the working class has not yet broken politically with the Democratic Party."" Oh, sorry, read that wrong. Yes, it's a major political problem that the Democratic party is still the only part of our gov't that cares about the working man. Instead, labor should support fairies.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#28)
    by john horse on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:55:28 PM EST
    Lets not kid ourselves about what we are trying to achieve in Iraq. The real goal of the Bush administration is to find a face-saving way of getting out. After 1500 lives, 11,000 wounded, billions of dollars spent, the Iraqi resistance is no closer to defeat than they were a year ago. It must drive those of you on the right crazy that for all our superiority in military hardware, we haven't been able to defeat the Iraqi insurgents. As a matter of fact, if you were honest about it, you would admit that you care more about losing this war than you do about whether Iraq has elections or not. The longer we stay in Iraq, the weaker we become. This war is becoming unsustainable. It will create longterm economic and recruitment problems. We are now so weak that the Bush administration has all but ruled out military action against countries like North Korea, Iran, and Syria. We are so paralyzed by Iraq, that Bush cannot do anything about the continuing genocide in Sudan or repressive regimes like in Uzbekistan or Burma.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 02:12:24 PM EST
    john horse is so right, just remember his words five years from now. and remember in 2003 one of bush's boys said this war/blood bath, would only cost 1.7 billion and only a few dead. only one guy in the so called bush government told the truth and he was removed. by the way bush has told the people of iraq that a plan is in place to remove any who help us fight the Terrorists and if things go bad its off to the usa for you good people. just wait and see how many we get in the coming years.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 06:13:43 PM EST
    Poet - Do what you think is the proper thing to do. I hope as you get older , you understand that this country, warts and all, is the best thing that has ever happened to human kind. I am disappointed when I read that you are willing to do things to destroy the social fabric of the US. I hope I don't see you on the 5 o'clock News one day. et al - My comment should have said: "RADICAL moslems."

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 06:45:47 PM EST
    I have a question for all those at TalkLeft, when you hear the righter say they rather fight them over there (Iraq) than over here what exactly does that mean? Firstly they(terrorist/insurgents/jihadis/) werent exactly over here to begin with. Secondly,were we really trying to lure terrorist to Iraq, the same terrorist who are now killing mostly Iraqis? Wouldnt the Iraqis agree that they would rather fight the terrorist in the USA than in Baghdad? If that was one of the reasons to go to war was the really a moral reason? What would we say to that?

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#33)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:50:09 PM EST
    Brownpower, "9/11 changed everything" seems to be the standard, programmed response.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:15:52 PM EST
    Brownpower - The Iraqis don't get to choose. Hope that doesn't bother you too much. And if the terrorists weren't over here, perhaps you can tell us how they hijacked those airliners. As a social liberal, when I say I'd rather fight them over there than here, what I mean is that I want their organizations attacked, destroyed and rolled up outside the US. Now, is that too complicated? And do you think that it is immoral to have a policy that protects our citizens versus others? And if you think so, then we immediately need people to volunteer to be killed. Uh....ready to step up?

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:35:35 PM EST
    John: "Lets not kid ourselves about what we are trying to achieve in Iraq. The real goal of the Bush administration is to find a face-saving way of getting out." Wow, you are WAY wrong. You should have heard the interview on Democracy Now! with the Washington Rep. Jim McDermott: "We are building permanent bases all through Iraq. And we have no intention whatsoever of leaving. I don't care what the President says. Nobody believes him." The intention, from the start, of USPNAC in Iraq is CIVIL WAR, in order to partition the country, in order to allow the sixteen US airbases to remain and form the core of USPNAC's wishlist of military conquests in the region. "(Iraq), Syria, Lebalebalon (ala Bush), Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Somalia (& partition Saudi Arabia, according to H. F*king Kissinger)." Kissinger also said, "There is no more Iraq--there will be three territories" (he didn't know he was being recorded). Forget all this jive about Iraq being a 'disaster' for Bush. It's a major policy success AND a major warcrime AND treason against American interests and national security. It's a baldfaced lie in place of ANY commitment to truth, democracy, or freedom. As such, utterly illegal and anti-constitutional. Bush is a serial liar, hired to do this job, installed through fake elections, and absolutely not going to stop or modify his actions until the control is wrested from his hands.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#36)
    by Andreas on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:22:21 PM EST
    Paul in LA wrote:
    It is politically impossible to oppose most of the funding demands for the troops. You would know this if you had any political power in our system of gov't. To blame the Dems is to play at naivete.
    This pretty well summarizes his position.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:26:45 AM EST
    It summarizes YOUR pseudo-naive posture, Andreas. You must have also missed how the most prominent vocal anti-Iraq war Dem is now the head of the party. I protest next to you, Andreas, and it isn't that I don't share your outrage about Iraq. I have been on the streets twice a week for three years with my protest. But your need to class the Dems as Rs flows not from the facts but from your worldview. This focus is a primary reason why I'm not a leftist. A lot of leftist fact is skewed by the refusal to contextualize political action WITH THE POLITICAL SYSTEM. To leftists, it's up or down, suicide votes, and then the litmus test to see how the reps did. And that's just not politics. We need political solutions, not just the honor of being moral in our views. Attacking Kerry with false accusations, you are being NON-progressive.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 04:25:55 AM EST
    jim, you get dumber by the minute. Iraq was never a danger before we attacked. now there will be whole generations of terrorist coming out of iraq. with your thinking we should of attacked canada after pearl harbor

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 05:39:00 AM EST
    Although its pretty clear that the dems would not have started this Iraq misadventure, the dems as a group (see Kerry, Clintons, Biden etc) are not anti-war wrt Iraq. I'm sure that they wish we hadn't done it, but given that we are there they are for staying. And their reasoning for this stand has nothing to do with the welefare ofthe Iraqi people, ME democracy, or all that other crap that gets spewed out. The reason they want to stay is that fundamentally they agree with the reasons (if not the timing) of the Iraq war, i.e. to perserve a flow of cheap oil to the US. One only has to go back to Carter who was the first president to publically justify the idea of using military force to keep the oil flowing, a principle that has in fact guided American Policy in the ME since at least 1953 when we helped overthrow the democraticaly elected government in Iran. So when we get down to basic priciples there is not much difference between the Dems and Repubs wrt to Iraq. Whether Dean can make any difference remains to be seen. As the vote on the bankruptcy bill proves the current leadership of both parties are firmly in the pockets of Corporate america. Until there is a fundamental change in the way campaigns are financed and until what are essentially bribes are eliminated there will be no change. As it stands right this minute choosing between the Repubs or dems is like choosing between getting run over by limo or by a really big limo.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 05:53:22 AM EST
    As it stands right this minute choosing between the Repubs or dems is like choosing between getting run over by limo or by a really big limo.
    Right on. What we need are legitimate 3rd, 4th, and 5th parties. Democrat, Republican...the song remains the same.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 10:34:44 AM EST
    with doc's coulter like logic, he's more brain dead than schiavo

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:56:36 AM EST
    "Posted by soccerdad: "Although its pretty clear that the dems would not have started this Iraq misadventure, the dems as a group (see Kerry, Clintons, Biden etc) are not anti-war wrt Iraq." The Dems as a group? Why would you cede the party to those three and your etc.? There are a hundred million of us (or more). Clinton is so mealy-mouthed these days he might as well stay in bed. Biden has ALWAYS been hawkish. As for Kerry, as a soldier he no doubt has a difficult time attacking a mission that soldiers are currently fighting. This also explains why he went to Iraq when it was clear that the election would be stolen (a lot of soldiers were counting on him to get them out of there). It is simply not accurate to say that because Kerry favored stabilization prior to returning Iraq to local gov't after the fact, that he AT ALL supported the violent occupation of the country. He does not support the USPNAC program for world domination. He took a lot of fire for NOT rubberstamping the $87 billion, if you will recall. Since Kerry is still in the Senate (unlike Gore), attacking Kerry with false generalities is doing Bush's work.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 01:01:08 PM EST
    Paul in LA
    The Dems as a group? Why would you cede the party to those three and your etc.? There are a hundred million of us (or more).
    Because you have no power. When I talk about Dems in this context, I refer to those who control the party in DC. And it is really part of my point that these people do not represent in any real way, those Dems with a progressive bent. In fact I would go so far as to say that the Dem party starting with Clinton has gone so far to the center and is controlled/influenced by corporate money to such an extent that its traditional base is no longer enthusiastic about the party. Many of us vote Dem at the national level because we fear the Repubs not love the Dems.
    It is simply not accurate to say that because Kerry favored stabilization prior to returning Iraq to local gov't after the fact, that he AT ALL supported the violent occupation of the country. He does not support the USPNAC program for world domination.
    This misses my point. He supports the continued occupation of Iraq despite the violence, despite the war crimes, despite the torture etc, because he believes that Iraq and the ME must remain within the the US's sphere of influence in order to maintain the flow of oil. His blind support of Bush's policies in Israel put him in the camp of most politicans over the years, whether DEm or Repub, that America's access to cheap oil, is the primary driving force behind ME policy. He would not have invaded, but given that we have, he has been supportive of Bush's war and for the most part relatively silent, along with the rest of the Dem power structure in Wash, concerning the atrocities of this admin. The fact that they may not support complete world domination is of little comfort to me. I guarantee you they will back continued long term force in the middle east and maybe even elswhere to secure oil supply. Jesus, even Carter believed this.
    attacking Kerry with false generalities is doing Bush's work
    Thanks for the winger approach to discussion. The Dem leadership in Washington does not represent progressive democrats. People like Kerry, the Clintons, Biden don't represent the average citizen anymore than the Repubs do.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#44)
    by glanton on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 01:04:57 PM EST
    "tens of thousands prefer reading to watching television" Millions don't.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:15:59 PM EST
    Posted by Soccerdad: "Because you have no power." Gee, well that's entirely WRONG. That Iraq Resolution vote was turned around and Gephardt lost his position as a DIRECT result of party member activism. "When I talk about Dems in this context, I refer to those who control the party in DC." Like Howard Dean? "And it is really part of my point that these people do not represent in any real way, those Dems with a progressive bent." You can say that, but it doesn't make it true. We're in the middle of a COUP. You may have high expectation for Dems in the face of the collapse of federal democracy, but I BLAME BUSH. If my representatives can do something, great. If not, boo-hoo. "In fact I would go so far as to say that the Dem party starting with Clinton has gone so far to the center" This is a tired claim. I'm a Dem not particularly because of such rightward slide, but because of great Dems like Boxer, Pelosi, Feingold, Kennedy, Conyers, JJ Jr., etc. You're looking at the glass half-empty." "This misses my point. He supports the continued occupation of Iraq despite the violence..." That's a presumption on MANY levels. You do not know that, you assume it. Kerry's position is complex, and it is certainly political. So to think you know what his position is is just to be NAIVE. "Thanks for the winger approach to discussion." Unlike you and the WSWS guy, I've posted FACTS. You are just slinging presumptions based on your prejudices. Who is more like a winger?

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:33:49 PM EST
    The Judean Peoples Front and the Peoples Front of Judea are going at it again.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 04:20:28 PM EST
    Andreas and soccerdad Can't we all just get along? Maybe one reason that the antiwar movement is not as strong in the US as it is elsewhere in the world is that we would rather fight each other than Bush. I'm with Paul. Attacking Democrats is counterproductive. They are not the problem, Bush and the Republicans are.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:42:15 PM EST
    Paul in LA - you can babble on about what you believe, it makes no difference sorry for the reality check. And frankly I don't care what claims you are tired of. Thats your problem. All you have to do is look at the vote for the bankruptcy bill. Its a disgrace and reflects the nature of the Dem. party at this time. Until Dean can do something, I'm not buying into a progressive revolt. The people you name are all good dems the king I like. But if 2008 comes and we're stuck with the likes of Kerry, Clinton or people of that ilk as the presidential nominee then we're screwed. And exactly what FACTS have you posted. Squat, zero, nada. What you have posted is your rosy picture of what you want to believe. The TRUTH is staring you in the face from the bankruptcy bill vote. And when you can't defend something, don't pull that crap that its soo complex. Talk about nonsense.
    Can't we all just get along?
    No because some of the Dems are just as guilty as Bush because they do little to stop it or sway public opinion. They roll over like the lap dogs of corporate ameraica they are. People like Pelosi excepted. Until you face this simple fact nothing will change because you are going to end up with the same crap running for president, repub lite. Don't like tough, thats what it is.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:46:05 PM EST
    And for those who think I'm full of crap explain to me why so many dems rolled over on the Bankruptcy Bill, including Biden and Reid. Have fun with that.

    Re: Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 09:27:11 PM EST
    Posted by soccerdad: "All you have to do is look at the vote for the bankruptcy bill." You were apparently sleeping while the Rs used vote fraud and mid-decade redistricting to take over the ENTIRE Federal gov't. Get ready to take A LOT of losses. The rollback is just getting underway under Bush, and we've got more pain coming. That still doesn't make suicide up-or-down voting the design of the Congress. I presume you're as aged as I, but maybe not. Mostly you just can't stand losing, and who can? But we are in the middle of a coup. That's never happened before in the history of the country. Terrible things have happened as a direct result; terrible things are about to happen. SOLIDARITY is our ONLY hope. The funny thing is, sd, what I'm afraid of are RETIREMENTS. The exact opposite problem from yours. We're on the verge of losing Byrd, Kennedy, a lot of our top guns on the progressive side. And the Rs know it; they are licking their chops. So while you're helping the socialists with ZERO political power down the Dems with false allegations and apparently a total lack of grasp of how the Congress runs, you are helping Bush do it to us. That I don't appreciate, but if you think that backstabbing the Dems is how you get them to do your will, you REALLY don't understand our system of gov't. Go Dean! It isn't he proving himself to YOU, it's YOU giving him the major backup he needs from the grassroots. Ask not, soccerdad. It takes YOUR sacrifice in this hour of need right next to his, and save your tomatoes for the traitorous Rs and their boy prince.

    Tens of Thousands Protest Iraq War in Europe | 48 comments (48 topical)