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Pope John Paul II Has Died

By Jeralyn, Section Off Topic
Posted on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 01:07:34 PM EST
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CNN reports that Pope John Paul II has died. May he rest in peace.

Update: There will be no other stories this weekend on the cable news channels. TV Newser reports on the schedules:

Pope: Wall-To-Wall Weekend Coverage

  • FNC has scheduled more than 48 hours of Fox News Live. Jon Scott, John Gibson, Bob Sellers, Laurie Dhue, Greg Jarrett, Paige Hopkins will host through the overnight. Fox & Friends will air in its usual time slots. Saturday: The schedule includes most of the weekday talent, including David Asman, Linda Vester and Shep Smith in their usual time slots. Shep will anchor from 8 to 10pm, followed by Geraldo until midnight and Rita Cosby until 2am. Sunday: Continuous live coverage continues, including regular editions of Weekend Live and the Fox Report. In primetime, Greta at 8, Shep at 9 and Geraldo at 10. Live coverage is currently scheduled to conclude at 2am Monday.
  • CNN: U.S. will simulcast CNNI from midnight to 7am. Saturday: American Morning from 7am to noon. CNN/U.S. will simulcast the International feed from noon to 4pm. Aaron Brown in Rome and Carol Lin in Atlanta will anchor from 4 to 7pm. Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour in Rome and Paula Zahn in NY will host from 7 to 9 and 10 to midnight, interrupted by Larry King. Sunday: CNNI's feed will air until 7am, when another five hours of American Morning will air. After two hours of Late Edition, a taped People in the News on the Pope will air. From 3 to 7pm, Brown and Lin will anchor, then PitN will air again. Cooper, Amanpour, and Zahn are back from 8 to 9 and 10 to 11...
  • MSNBC will be live 24/7 through Sunday night (maybe with a couple Pope documentaries mixed in). Joe Scarborough took over for Keith Olbermann for two hours at 9, and Olbermann will return at 11 for three more hours. A more complete schedule will be available Saturday morning. We may see Tucker Carlson co-hosting on Sunday night...
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    Pope John Paul II Has Died | 65 comments (65 topical)
    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#1)
    by Adept Havelock on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:10:20 PM EST
    The world has lost a great man. To those who mourn: "The deeper sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain". -Kahlil Gibran

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    FOX News said yesterday morning that he had died. I rarely watch FOX but it was on in the study lounge at the Tivoli. Weird.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:20:57 PM EST
    Watch out for the next pope, its not going to be good news day when you see this new pope. Nu#4

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:24:23 PM EST
    It was a producer who had shouted it into Shepard Smith's ear and he repeated it and then apologized. The producer had been listening to Italian tv. It wasn't confirmed. Crooks and Liars has the video and you can hear the producer saying it.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:47:04 PM EST
    The pope has done a lot of good, but his stance on birth control has caused the perpetuation of poverty and hunger in third world Catholic countries. Let's hope the new pope is more open-minded about birth control.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#6)
    by Lindsay on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:52:30 PM EST
    I never felt that he ever did anything to help with the pedophile Priests problem. In fact he brought Cardinal Bernard Law to the vatican. In any event, I hope he rests in peace as he was still a good and decent man.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#7)
    by theologicus on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:55:01 PM EST
    Billmon has a nice post over at Wiskey Bar, Very fair-minded and thoughtful (even if he does repeat the old canard about the eucharist being cannibalistic).

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 01:09:36 PM EST
    The Pope deserves his eternal rest after the last few years of being very sick and frail but still doing his Popely duties. As for the media...I'm glad they had their deathwatch climax and can now roll over and go to sleep (well at least after another week of funerals, religious rites, historical revisionism, unfounded speculation on the new Pope and the new moral values that have hit our country)...

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mike on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 02:02:58 PM EST
    Am I the only one noticing the irony of the Pope having chosen to forego treatment, i.e. dialysis and a ventilator, as the infection caused sepsis in his system? The other night, some Catholic hot shot was on Lehrer extolling the "culture of life". Isn't all life sacred and shouldn't we be doing all we can to preserve life? Where does the Pope get off refusing treatment as the quality of his life diminished?

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#10)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 02:03:58 PM EST
    I never felt that he ever did anything to help with the pedophile Priests problem. T' all those who refuse t' see that th' Pope did try to stop th' sex abuse problem in th' US here's one more story pointin' out that he did. Of course, fer some like Jlivingston as an example, no amount o' evidence will suffice since their minds are already made up. From th' AP: However, a sex abuse scandal among clergy plunged his church into moral crisis. He summoned U.S. cardinals to the Vatican and told them: "The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. Sad thing is statements like th' one indicated at th' top o' th' post are made before his body was even cold. There's a concept called respect fer th' dead....

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 02:11:56 PM EST
    He was the first leader of the Catholic Church to apologize for centuries of antisemitism. The first pope to visit a mosque. While I feel the Catholic Church does more harms than good he at least was not a hypocrite. He spoke out against the death penalty, he opposed the war in Iraq and he spoke out against the torture and inhumane treatment of Iraqi prisoners of war. It is the height of hypocrisy to have unrepentent antisemites like Pat Buchanan and the Catholic League's Bill Calhoun on to talk about the power of his leadership of the Church.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 02:32:24 PM EST
    Tex, thanks for the quote. I don't know what the political structure the Catholic church is or how much power the Pope has with parishes but the US churches seem to have done more to fight the abuse scandals (e.g. hiding pedo priests and declaring bankruptcy to avoid paying settlements) than to clean house and 'fess up. For that they have earned my contempt. The intent of my original post on the 'pope is sick' thread was to point out that to an outside observer there can be different interpretations to bible history and religious trappings. I don't think anything I stated was untrue, just another way of loooking at it. I stated clearly that I didn't wish the pope or anyone else dead. He did a lot of good works and he also perpetuated some bad ones. He's a man, and fallible like all of us. May he rest in peace. You have my sincere sympathies for your loss.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#13)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 03:01:12 PM EST
    Very clever, Mike. I think the reasoning is that it's possible to recover from a disease but not possible to love without food and water. BigTex, as a Catholic who really liked this Pope (granted, I wasn't alive for any of the others, but he wasn't like one of the medieval guys at least) I was incredibly angered by his tepid response. Calling sexual abuse a sin is hardly noteworthy; even the clergymen doing the abuse knew that. Don't tell me even you have caught the Republican Words-Speak-Louder-Than-Actions syndrome...

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 03:01:50 PM EST
    Er, live without food and water. Can't really love, either.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 04:17:55 PM EST
    tex, the modernday image of cowboys was invented by holllywood. john wayne was an actor

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#16)
    by roger on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 04:42:58 PM EST
    Karol Wojczech was an interesting, and courageous man years before he became pope. I disagree with many of his positions, but he was an impressive person.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#17)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 04:49:24 PM EST
    I hope Eclaire is on the 0-posts-a-day list by now.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 04:52:57 PM EST
    John Paul II is the third pope to die during my lifetime. I can still remember both he and John Paul I being elected, and John Paul I and Paul VI dying. Hopefully, whoever becomes pope next will continue to address issues that not only face the Catholic church, but also the world at large. May the late pontiff rest in peace.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#19)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 05:22:11 PM EST
    Eclair - how about simply fer th' Lord t' be with him as he dies. I guess that encomappses his passin' would be relativly painless, that hsi stint in Puratory would be short, that he would not fear his impendin' death. Sailor - The bit about funny hat and dress made me think you were mocking him. I have reacted too harshly towards you and apologise.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#20)
    by Adept Havelock on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 05:26:36 PM EST
    Eclaire- Trolling in a eulogy thread. How declasse, how gauche, how blatantly rude. Egads.....

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 05:39:19 PM EST
    Goodbye, Good Friend. Your Good deeds have not gone unnoticed.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#22)
    by Kitt on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 05:48:21 PM EST
    I would think they were praying for a peaceful and quick journey to the heart of G*d. One thing too, the Pope demonstrated (I think as a Catholic and someone with a theology degree)the theological differences between Catholics and the evangelical christians regarding death - with the exceptions of that stupid Father Pavone and that jerkoff from the Catholic League, Donoghue - IF you believe in G*d's grace and mercy, why the fear of dying? Although I didn't agree with many of PJII's stances on various issues facing the church, he was still an incredible christian, as Chris Matthews pointed out a while ago....a Dorothy Day kind of justice seeker.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimcee on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 07:06:49 PM EST
    A great man died today and he will be sorely missed. It has been a pleasure to observe a simple man who rose to such heights and grace, an historically significant life. I was raised as a Methodist but think Il Papa was one of the great leaders of the 20th century. May he RIP.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 07:18:55 PM EST
    As an agnostic I don't believe in religous authorities and disagreed with many of the popes conservative views. I however have nothing but the deepest respect for Karol Wojtyla. A true uniter preaching for peace and tolerance you were, an inspiration to millions of people. Odpoczywaj w spokoju Karol

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#26)
    by Kitt on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 07:54:17 PM EST
    Referred by someone - a tribute to the pope on Michael Moore's site

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 08:08:25 PM EST
    Eclaire is a troll and is being banned from the site.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 08:11:56 PM EST
    I'm not Catholic, and like others here, I have disagreed with JPII's views on such matters as birth control and the role of women in the church, among others. But I have always had the impression that JPII was sincere and thoughtful in his views, and I respected and admired his concern for and vocal response to such global issues as war, poverty, and ecumenicism. I've seen the Religious Right in the U.S. try to hijack the Bible to paint Christianity as a religion of hatred, and JPII stood in opposition to that. For that I am grateful. May the light perpetual shine upon him.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 08:50:45 PM EST
    Big Tex, hardly a rebuke. Outrage? None. The church stonewalled the retired FBI agent working on their behalf to root out this stuff. I got nothin against ya tex, I like ya, just have no respect for the catholic church. It is a crime is what he said, not an abomination, a gross abuse of trust and far more damaging to the victims because so. You want me to feel sorry for the pope? I feel much worse for the victims of the abuse under his authority.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:19:06 PM EST
    Jlvngstn - I understand where you are coming from, but I think your error, (like mine), is confusing the man with the church. 'Any man's death diminishes me.' WRT your earlier post about 'calling out', I think the person was trying to ask about policy, not finger an individual. YMMV;-)

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:48:42 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, Tex, you both might want to see the quotes on Moore's site like kitt said. reading them has increased my appreciation for the man. You can always ignore the links on the right (how ironic is that?), but the quotes are beautiful, if not beatific.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#31)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:49:53 PM EST
    Combinin' th' three threads where I've posted on th' matter into this one... Jlvngstn - I don't have anythin' against you either. Sailor is correct, I wasn't tryin' t' call you out re: th' troll post - that's not m' style, I think everyone has th' right t' think what they want to - it was a policy question and th' confluence o' events brought your posts t' mind t' use an an example. Upthread, I was usin' you as an example again, pointin' out t' some that no amount o' evidence will change their minds because they are (or at least seem t' be) entrenched in their positions (same as me and usin' th' dialect.) Hope you didn't take it personally, no offence was intended.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#32)
    by Johnny on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 12:32:37 AM EST
    "Big Tex"... If your posts were readable, I would read them. But they are not. Your grammar is horrendous, and your little habit of using about 8 trillion apostrophes is actually quite stupidly annoying, not quaint and "Texan". Get a clue, write in your native tongue, and be heard and understood. Or, continue posting these illiterate crapola filled Texas dung and be ignored by anyone who knows how to read. The pope is dead, big deal. He advocated a system that harmed little boys (which has been a touchy subject here at TL lately), that caused young women to be pregnant because he believed that ignorance was as good as education. Me? I could not be happier that he is gone, maybe the catholics of the world will decide someone with half a brain will be their guru.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#33)
    by Andreas on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 12:51:33 AM EST
    One brief comment containing links which I submitted yesterday does not appear above. I will not resubmit it.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 02:00:00 AM EST
    Andreas, I did not edit any of your comments. you should resubmit it if you don't see it.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 05:37:48 AM EST
    mixed feelings here for someone who has was raised Catholic. The Pope was a man of strict prinicples, in some ways he has touched mankind in a unique ways few individuals can (his stance on anti-sem), but his stubborn refusal to accept and adopt change in the church (status of women) and his refusal to acknowledge errors (sex scandal) were his biggest downfalls.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 07:17:21 AM EST
    I Paul II was an authentically spiritual person who worked tirelessly on matters where he felt called. He is like the Dalai Lama in that some of his positions on issues grated on my sensibilities, but in both cases I have to step back and wonder about my positions because these are two humans who have given everything to their spiritual path. I respect that. KW, rest in peace.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 12:15:33 PM EST
    with all due respect, the pope is NOT like the dali lama. catholicism is a religion of strict rules and beliefs with ONE way to "salvation". buddhism is the opposite. it is about finding your way to enlightenment. the john paul II, while I admire his "stance" on the poor -- lord knows he didn't really do anything to help them -- and his meeting with his attempted assassin, to desire to weild that kind of spiritual control over people is nothing short of sociopathic. nice guy with a very twisted sence of service. i'll take the dali lama over john paul II any day. rest in peace, and i hope he comes back as a homosexual atheist.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#38)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 02:19:54 PM EST
    [C]atholicism is a religion of strict rules and beliefs with ONE way to "salvation". You are misinformed. From the Catechism paragraph # 818 states, "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community [that resulted from such separation' and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." (C.C.C. # 818) Catholics also believe in Baptism by blood and desire, not just water, so that if someone is martyered for the faith they are Baptised by their blood, and if someone is ignorant of the need of Baptism but would have been Baptised if they knew of the need for Baptism then they are Baptised by their desire for Baptism. To put it more succienctly 1) We do not believe only Catholics go to Heaven 2) We believe that if anyone is born in another denomination or religion (Muslim, Buddist, etc.) that they are ignorant of the true faith and therefore not punished for their ignorance. 3) We believe that Baptism is necessary, but that it can be achieved by water, blood, or desire.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 02:32:20 PM EST
    No offense, but having looked at the folks who are certain they're going to heaven, I think I'd choose to party in hell rather than be stuck for eternity with those self righteous prigs. The wages of sin may be death, but the benefits are incredible!

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 06:21:47 PM EST
    Rocker sounds like my highschool Sex-Ed teacher.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 06:43:03 PM EST
    The Pope was a respectable man although I am not exactly sure what he really did that was so great. For the most part we knew where the Pope stood and did not have to worry about the hypocrisy we see from the Conservative Right in this country. I pray that he rest in Peace! I also pray the Conservative Right Hypocrites of America burn in HELL!

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:38:22 AM EST
    Darkstar- I certainly hope your prayers don't mean anything since you are praying that anyone goes to hell. As far as JP2 in general... I think he was a good dude who did a great job at interacting with the 3/4 of a billion people he there to govern. I'm not catholic but I can definitely respect his workings along with Ronald Reagan to bring down communism's reign in eastern Europe. The people don't get to determine who the next Pope is. A bunch of old dudes in a private room decide that. Whoever it is has big shoes to fill. If you'll recall JP1 was doing good stuff right away but corruption made his reign end quickly. I wouldn't want to be the next dude in line... As far as all the talk about JP2 being bad because of the abuse that was going on blah blah blah. Seriously... its not like he advocated abuse. Give me a break. If a few pervs somewhere did bad stuff that doesnt make all of catholocism bad nor its leader. JP2 loved his people and was a great leader whether you agreed with his stances or not.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:19:34 AM EST
    I have trouble calling the pope a "great man" when he advocated helping the poor, yet sat on a vast treasure of untold proportions and didn't use it to help the poor. I get skeptical when a guy in fancy robes and jewels tells his followers to give all they can, while he lives in opulence. It leads me to believe he was just another charlatan using religion as his hustle.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:48:30 AM EST
    Kdog, Under his leadership, the Church gave record amounts of its own money to help people in the 3rd world. He was in no way a charlatan. Much of the opulence was not of his doing. I disagreed with him on a number of issues but I believe he was consistent in his teachings and actions Here is a summary by Juan Cole that should be of interest. If he wasn't a great man, then there have been none in the last 25 years. I used to be catholic but am now a Lutheran.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:53:38 AM EST
    sdad..when you say "their own money", doesn't that mean money collected from the parishoners the world over?
    Much of the opulence was not of his doing
    Fair point, but the pope is the boss, supposedly god's top man on earth. If he wanted to sell off the church's vast treasure to help the poor, he could have. He didn't.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:58:08 AM EST
    My great-uncle was a catholic priest, and he was a great guy. But I did notice, for someone who supposedly took a vow of poverty, he had a new car every 3 yrs, drank top-shelf scotch, and always had cash on hand to spoil his great-nephews. Led me to believe all is not right in Denmark.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:04:52 AM EST
    tex, saying people of other faiths are saved because of their ignorance is, simply stated, wretched. and it still supports the one way to heaven idea, which is equally wretched. if one way isn't the only way, then the catholic church should stop persecuting catholics who disagree with the pope, the church, with god. and my point about the difference between, say, catholocism and buddhism stands. the dali lama doesn't hold other faiths ignorant, he holds them with respect. the pope may have talked a good game about the poor and reforming caplitalism, but what he actually DID for any of these is absolutely nothing. his "power" keeps poor people poor, ignorant, and incapable of using birth control... and keeps them, in free countries, from criticizing the church without fear of punishment, excommunication, etc.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:29:04 AM EST
    The Church under this pope was insome ways a contradiction. They used money not just collected but from reserves. Yhey are the number 1 organization in the world for providing direct help to people regardless of where they lived and many times to non-catholics. His stand on contraception was stupid IMO but the tradition of the church has always been conservative wrt sex. The church spent sustantial amounts of money treating AIDS patients in Africa but prevented them from using Condoms. I think to say that he keep poor people poor borders on ludicrous. If you want an example of an organization that does that check out the world bank and IMF. The explosive growth of the Catholic Church in the 3rd world speaks to the good it does there. Could it do things better, yes, especialy wrt to condoms in Africa. This pope made a big difference in the way the Church interacted with the world. Hopefully the next one will continue on because there is much more progress that needs to be made. WRT to priests, I grew up catholic, went to catholic school and was an alter boy [am now Lutheran]. Priests get paid, they do not pay for room, food. etc. If they buy their cars at all, they usually get them at cost from a dealer who's a member of the parish. Some dealers gave the cars to the parish and wrote them off as a charitable deduction. I don't begrudge them a few "luxuries" like a good scotch

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:31:23 AM EST
    tex, saying people of other faiths are saved because of their ignorance is, simply stated, wretched. dadler, is that what BigTex said? I think what he said is that the Catholic church does not teach that non-Catholics are going to hell.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:46:18 AM EST
    Soccer, You know we're on the same page basically, my lefty friend. I don't hate Catholics, or sprituality, I just have a problem, in a church SO hierarchical and MONOtheistic, with a position like the pope's, period. God should not be a club, but a continuing mystery, to be questioned, woshipped, criticized, loved, cursed, praised, doubted, etc., all at the same time. The most recent pope did not encourage, in ANY way, this form of free spiritual discourse or activity. He ran a company. And he spouted a company line. I agree with him on poverty, capitalism, the death penalty, etc., but there are plenty of people I would agree on these easy issues with, some of them horrible people. Not saying the pope was horrible, just to make an extreme example. I know plenty of wonderful Catholic people, all my in-laws among them. That I find the company and the ceo's position in that company/religion to be counterproductive and just not a good thing, well, that's just that. And, like I said, one's personal prejudices are a hard thing to deal with, and I deal like any enlightened, self-aware people should, or I try to anyway. Could be all my bad, we'll see when I grow up a little more. I'm on the way, as all good Buddhists say they are. And I'm not Buddhist. Sarcastic Unamed One, To quote Tex: 2) We believe that if anyone is born in another denomination or religion (Muslim, Buddist, etc.) that they are ignorant of the true faith and therefore not punished for their ignorance Try scrolling up a few posts next time. Sorry to be pissy, it's Monday, whatd'you want?

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:09:22 PM EST
    I don't hate Catholics, or sprituality, I know you don't I just have a problem, in a church SO hierarchical and MONOtheistic, with a position like the pope's, period. So do I actually, one of the reasons I'm now Lutheran. The most recent pope did not encourage, in ANY way, this form of free spiritual discourse or activity Agreed yet another reason I'm Lutheran. My only point is that this pope did do many good things that previous popes had not. Are you familiar with the catholic Church pre-vatican II?

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:11:32 PM EST
    dadler, Sarcastic Unamed One, To quote Tex: 2) We believe that if anyone is born in another denomination or religion (Muslim, Buddist, etc.) that they are ignorant of the true faith and therefore not punished for their ignorance Try scrolling up a few posts next time. Sorry to be pissy, it's Monday, whatd'you want? I certainly had read the post you quoted. Pissy indeed, but your disclaimer made me smile. My 12 years of Catholic school interpretation of what BigTex wrote is that "and therefore not punished for their ignorance" means in Catholic-speak "and therefore not condemned to an eternity in hell for their ignorance." "Not punished" is much different from being "saved."

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:12:18 PM EST
    Me at 1:11 pm

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:52:45 PM EST
    Pope John Paul II was a great man. I will miss him dearly. He did more for peace than any other person during my lifetime. I don't think that there can possibly ever be anyone greater. He tried very hard to bring us all together as one people under GOD.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#55)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:08:07 PM EST
    Justin Raimondo who characterizes himself as exuberantly pagan has a piece with much praise of the pope.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:10:11 PM EST
    su1, i just have a big problem with using the term ignorance to describe people of other, much more ancient, faiths. i'm glad y'all don't think they're going to hell. i just wish the idea of hell wasn't standing in the way of greater reconcilliation and respect.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:18:37 PM EST
    soccer, i should add, in certain ways, i have great admiration for john paul II. especially the way he forgave his attempted assassin. that is turning the other cheek in precisely the way jesus probably meant, if he existed or ever actually said the words. however, a guy who has NO experience in a relationship with a woman, and NO experience with sexuality on a personal level, has NO right controlling the reproductive choices for SO many catholics in, mostly, poor and uneducated communities. that to me is so wrong it's off the chart. to want that kind of power in the face of your own childish ignorance of the subject is really sort of sociopathic. people are screwy beings. he's no different. just had that mantle of power that puts a target on him. and rightfully. you want that power, you have to be man enough to suffer the slings and arrows.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:34:03 PM EST
    dadler I responded mostly because of your determination of the Catholic faith as "wretched" because: saying people of other faiths are saved because of their ignorance is, simply stated, wretched. The point I was trying to make is that this is not what BigTex wrote and not what the church teaches. The Catholic church teaches that non-Catholics are not condemned to hell. This is wretched?!

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:34:50 PM EST
    me again 2:34

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 02:14:00 PM EST
    dadler, one last thing...don't get too caught up on the word "ignorance." I think it's used here in its true meaning, and not as a "put down" as it is often colloquially used today.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:08:06 PM EST
    Well, I think most of the people only give importance to what a person has done during its whole life when it's already dead.I do that.Yesterday, I started crying when I was watching this program which was telling all the things Karol Josef Wojtyla passed trough and all the things he'd done during his life, and believe me, I'm not easycrying.Although I don't really care about the Catholic Church, I hope clergy chooses a Pope who's as good as John Paul used to be.

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#62)
    by Andreas on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:22:17 PM EST
    The WSWS today published these articles: Pope John Paul II: a political obituary By Marius Heuser and Peter Schwarz, 6 April 2005 The US media and the pope—an assault on the separation of church and state By Bill Van Auken, 6 April 2005

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:18:02 PM EST
    In response to Mike's misinformed and brash statement "Where does the Pope get off refusing treatment as the quality of his life diminished?": If you knew anything about the Catholic Church, which by your brash statement, you obvioslyly do not, you would know that the Catholic Church does recognize a person's right to not be placed on life support in the case of a terminal illness or, as in the case of the Holy Father, his imminent death. They not only recognize but encourage living wills. Perhaps before you go calling people "hotshots" and talking about things you know absolutely nothing about, maybe you should do a little research first before you come off looking like a total jackass in front of people that know better

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#64)
    by Emily on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:30:33 PM EST
    The Pope was a GREAT pope and no one will ever be able to replace him! R.I.P we love you Pope John Paul II! peace

    Re: Pope John Paul II Has Died (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 08:26:57 PM EST
    Pope didnt go to heaven read the bible he never talked about reborning which jesus said u must in order to get in to heaven and repent

    Pope John Paul II Has Died | 65 comments (65 topical)