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Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case

CBS Legal Analyst Andrew Cohen writes in the Denver Post of the madness of the Terri Schiavo case and the blood libel of the radical right in trying to blame judges for her death. He has done an outstanding job in commenting on this case since the beginning.

First, on Christians and Schiavo:

This madness was so palpable, the raw emotion was so high, that we saw and heard Schiavo compared to Jesus Christ. This is not as surprising as it may seem at first. According to a new Newsweek poll, 78 percent of Americans today believe that Christ rose from the dead and no doubt many in that number believed, in spite of the best medical evidence to the contrary, that Terri Schiavo eventually could have and would have actually improved after living 15 years in a persistent vegetative state. This mystical gloss on secular reality shone even more brightly because the apex of the case occurred over Easter weekend, with all it connotes about life, death, miracles and God.

Next, on the charges of judicial homicide:

The madness was so elemental that we heard judges called murderers just because they were applying the law. Even by the low political and ethical standards of the day, this surely was the cheapest shot of them all, uttered by opportunistic politicians and religious leaders who know an easy target when they saw one.

Terri Schiavo was not murdered by judges or anyone else. She was not the victim of "judicial homicide," as one particularly odious religious leader suggested last week. She was allowed to die pursuant to valid state and federal law, interpreted fairly and consistently by state and federal judges. If this was "murder," then every execution in this country is murder; every life sentence without parole is murder; every judicial decision approving a request for the denial of medical treatment theoretically would be murder; every homeless person who dies as a result of a lack of welfare would be "murdered."

The charge is a blood libel against judges. And the politicians and spiritual leaders who leveled it, in unglued moments of passion and cynicism, or even those who merely have allowed it to stand unchallenged, ought to be ashamed.

A small quibble: Those who oppose the death penalty on principle, myself included, (as opposed to those who oppose it only because of its fallibility) do believe that every execution is state-sanctioned murder. While life without parole also is a death sentence, it's harder to argue that the mere imposition of the sentence is murder, since there is no affirmative act of killing.

Next Cohen uses the famous quote from former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis:

"Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example ... ."

As an aside, Andrew covered the McVeigh trial. The same quote, which is from Brandeis' dissenting opinion in a 1928 wiretapping case, Olmstead v. United States,277 US 438, was what Timothy McVeigh chose to read aloud to the Court at his sentencing hearing - a hearing at which he was sentenced to death.

"If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, 'Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.'

"That's all I have.
August 14, 1997.

Andrew, like most analysts during the trial, didn't favor McVeigh's use of the quote.

"He is using a dissenting opinion in a 69-year-old case to justify an illegal act," said Andrew Cohen, a Denver lawyer and trial commentator. "He is pulling a final trick on us. I think he is trying to use the system - and an eminent jurist - to say that once the government becomes a lawbreaker it teaches all of us to be lawbreakers and anarchy follows."

Was McVeigh merely referring to Waco or making a larger point about governmental misconduct? In this 1998 essay written from his prison cell, McVeigh again uses the quote to explain his view that U.S. bombing of Iraq targets would be wrong.

McVeigh. Schiavo. Illegal wiretaps. Do they have anything in common? This writer opines that the message of the Brandeis quote is that we cannot countenance misconduct by government officials who attempt to use judicial processes or judicial review as a means of usurping powers not granted by the Constitution. That should encompass legislators as well as police, and certainly it then applies to the Terri Schiavo case.

For better context, here is the entire paragraph of Justice Brandeis' dissent that contained the quote:

"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face."

It truly is one the most powerful quotes ever.

[comments now closed, thread hijacked.]

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    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 09:35:40 PM EST
    "78% of Americans believe Christ rose from the dead." What percentage of Americans are Christians? More than 78% I would estimate, raising the question: How can a Christian NOT believe Christ rose from the dead? It's sort of like the story of Clovis who, when he heard of the crucifixion, said "If I had been there with my Frankish army, this would never have happened." What is christianity without the crucifixion? What is christianity without the resurrection?

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 09:38:41 PM EST
    Come on people no one is to Blame(at the top) in our great empire, she is only one of many to come to that kind of end at the hands of judges and political people.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 11:06:19 PM EST
    Regardless of whether her condition would have improved, she was not dying until she was deliberately killed. There is no law whatsoever in the arbitrary edict which callously murdered this innocent woman, just a pathological veneration of the black robed dominatrix society.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 11:07:29 PM EST
    85% according to one site. Paul said without the resurrection our faith is worthless.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:50:58 AM EST
    And if the subject of Christ is exhausted by Pauline Christianity of the modern American sort, then there you are. But this single religious belief, supposedly held (like Bush supposedly believes in the Ten Commandments), does not define the entire range of beliefs involved. Nor does it inherently become valid just because it is in common. The (Thomas) Jefferson Bible contained all the teaching and sayings ASCRIBED to Jesus in the Bible, without the miracles. You can hardly claim that 'America' can be defined without Thomas Jefferson. His Christianity wasn't perhaps shared by 85% of respondents in whatever cheap poll that number is from, but his concept of America is unimpeachable. American Christianity believes or tends to have some bad prejudices that Jefferson did not share, including anti-scientism. There is hardly anything less genuine than a medieval superstition in an advanced scientific society. So rightwing Christians, making their usual claim that they are representative of the majority -- when all of their blatant acts of vote fraud and deliberate misconception belie their true minority-- simply prefer to deny that science has disproven their claims, in spades. We do not have time to refight the Reformation. The earth's ecosystem is in grave danger, and corporate profiteering has merged with pseudo-Christian lunacy. We need scientific solutions that spare our ecosystem, not hokum about the Great Beyond. And Thom. Jefferson stands with me on that.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:59:04 AM EST
    On original topic, don't miss NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg's letter to Rep. DeLay noting that DeLay had possibly violated federal law: "You should be aware that your comments yesterday may violate a Federal criminal statute, 18 U.S.C. §115 (a)(1)(B). That law states: "Whoever threatens to assault…. or murder, a United States judge… with intent to retaliate against such… judge…. on account of the performance of official duties, shall be punished [by up to six years in prison]" Lautenberg letter

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#7)
    by Andreas on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 02:45:22 AM EST
    From a report given by David North, national secretary of the Socialist Equality Party and chairman of the editorial board of the World Socialist Web Site, at a public meeting held in New York on Sunday, April 3:
    In the decision denying the latest motion by the Schindler family, Judge Birch of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a concurring statement in which he warned that “the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers’ blueprint for the governance of a free people—our Constitution.” He added, in a sentence which is italicized in the text of the court document, “If sacrifices to the independence of the judiciary are permitted today, precedent is established for the constitutional transgressions of tomorrow.” The seriousness of this astonishing warning finds no echo in the statements, let alone actions, of leaders of the Democratic Party. Indeed, following Ms. Schiavo’s death, the Democratic Party barely responded to the calls for violent retribution by the petty thug who runs the House of Representatives, Tom DeLay. As DeLay talks openly about killing Democratic leaders, the leaders of this so-called opposition party are capable of no more than shamefaced and frightened admonishments.
    The case of Terri Schiavo and the crisis of politics and culture in the United States By David North, 4 April 2005

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:05:06 AM EST
    don't read some guy who is part of some back A@@, Pope church, read what Martin Luther said about state murder back in 1530...so what will you do about state murder? "Oh Let me think"..."nothing", that is how evil wins. by the way all of you are next on the list.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:37:19 AM EST
    Part of the motivation behind the hysterical attacks on the judges by Delay et al was to lessen the importance of the judicuary in people's minds so that 1. people would care less when Bush appointed some ideological extremist and 2. people would care less when Bush didn't obey the courts eg Gitmo

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:38:20 AM EST
    Good post. I think Cohen might be stretching a bit, as you point out, by equating an execution with allowing a person to pass away when their wishes have been established. There is a point here that I have been trying to raise over and over again, though: if the wingnuts truly believed this was some brutal act of starvation, where's the outrage over welfare reform, cuts in discretionary spending, and Bush's (intentionally vague, I would argue) plan to privatize Social Security? Perhaps because it's easier to focus on one person instead of millions; although that doesn't exactly excuse it. But then you also have to consider (as Cohen rightly does) that this whole episode was part of a meta-ritual being played out in evangelical circles that was at least partly (I would say largely) for the benefit of those taking part in it.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:54:45 AM EST
    i think any comparison of Schiavo to Christ is insane. i dont think you can blame the courts or politicians for her death. i never saw Schiavo's living will or anything of that nature so i don't know what her wishes were. i know that in the end she died from starvation and dehydration... which is pretty crappy. so since i dont know what Schiavo's true wishes were (even though her husband convinced a judge of a particular view) i think to myself... could i let my wife starve or thirst to death when the disease she has isnt killing her quickly????

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#12)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:27:10 AM EST
    That’s some nice trollin Bendito; “…pathological veneration of the black robed dominatrix society.” You’ve crossed the tracks from sharp rhetoric to crazy town with that gem.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:28:57 AM EST
    i think to myself... could i let my wife starve or thirst to death when the disease she has isnt killing her quickly????
    What if she told you she didn't want to live as a vegetable? What if you believed the doctors who said that your wife is not neurologically capable of experiencing hunger or thirst? What if the Pope articulated that he didn't want to be taken to the hospital - even though machines there could have lengthened his life? Would you say the college of cardinals suffocated the pontiff to death? What if you were unable to move a muscle but your brain worked - you were conscious of your drool being wiped off your mouth and your poop being wiped off your butt? You couldn't even taste food or water, someone has to flip you a few times daily to keep you from getting bed sores. What if you had told your wife you didn't want to live like this and your parents convinced her that allowing you to die was wrong? Howabout spending 15, 30, 40 or fifty years laying in a bed staring at the ceiling?? Is this what you would want for yourself? For your loved ones?

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:31:27 AM EST
    The level of ignorance about hospice and the type of death of Mrs. Schiavo experiences is staggering. As Deepok Chopra MD said why would the parents want to prolong her death she died 15 years ago

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:37:09 AM EST
    Pigwiggle, with any luck, DeLay and friends will cull the republican vote down to folks like Bendito and Brian Boru. The fiscal conservatives and libertarians will be so horrified by the rhetoric that they will abandon their ill-fated coalition and begin some real political dialog in this country. If I had to pick a mainstream label, it would be progressive. I am just guessing that yours is libertarian. Perhaps on an open thread sometime we can explore small governments and safety nets to see where real similarities and differences lie. Stop the madness of partisan bickering! Let's show our leaders how it's done! (Note: irrational optimism not guaranteed to last past lunchtime on Monday). Mr. Boru - Jesus has a lot of lessons for us that don't involve his resurrection. If I cut out my belief in the resurrection part it just means that I can't get Communion in church - it doesn't mean that Christ led a meaningless life from which no lessons on getting along with our fellow man can be found. On the contrary.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:43:45 AM EST
    What is amazing is the right-wing likes to rage about the "out-of-control unelected judiciary". But of course in this case most of the important decisions were made at the state court level. Florida judges are elected from top to bottom and Judge Greer is a conservative Republican Baptist who has apparently been kicked out of his church for his decisions in this case.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#17)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:09:21 AM EST
    mfox- “The fiscal conservatives and libertarians will be so horrified by the rhetoric that they will abandon their ill-fated coalition and begin some real political dialog in this country.” At least from my perspective it seems that many libertarians are jumping the Republican ship, although I must confess I’ve never understood the ‘lesser of two …’ voting strategy that got them on board in the first. The president’s authoritarian reaction to the September 11 attacks (but really, how many Democratic signatures are on PATRIOT?), his liberal domestic and foreign spending, proposed constitutional amendments, broad interventionist foreign policy, and so forth; all have hurt the Republicans with the libertarian minded. But realistically we aren’t worth much in the way of votes, yet.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:53:27 AM EST
    If there is even the slightest coherence or intelligence behind libertarianism, I've yet to discover it. It's just greed and selfishness elevated to the status of virtues, falsely justified by a fundamental misunderstanding of Darwin. As a political philosophy, it is as pie in the sky as communism. And just as prone to spectacular, cruel failures of the sort that benefit the already pampered at the expense of the unfairly abused. It's an indication of how truly awful our educational system is that such obviously bogus tripe as libertarianism has caught on among the so-called smart set.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:12:17 AM EST
    OT, Condi and Karzai are getting married. Tristero, Agreed. I applaud the libertarian approach to personal freedom but their approch to Intl. relations is so incendiary, at least from what I've seen and read, which is not a huge amoung.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:13:06 AM EST
    Tris, in your misunderstanging od libertarianism, you might want to consider: 1. you don't know what you don't know... 2. no plan covers all contingencies, 3. to quote the Bard, "There is mopre between heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy," 4. to quote Goethe, "Few people have the imagination for reality." Am I getting through?

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:31:29 AM EST
    Please correctly identify the religious rightwing when writing about Christians. There are a lot of Christians out there that do not agree with them. No:
    American Christianity believes or tends to have some bad prejudices that Jefferson did not share, including anti-scientism. There is hardly anything less genuine than a medieval superstition in an advanced scientific society.
    Fine:
    So rightwing Christians, making their usual claim that they are representative of the majority -- when all of their blatant acts of vote fraud and deliberate misconception belie their true minority-- simply prefer to deny that science has disproven their claims, in spades.


    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 09:00:07 AM EST
    Barbara, Your point is well taken but the confusion is not Paul's. Ten years ago, Pat Robertson openly declared that he resented being labelled a "fundamentalist Christian." He said, "We're simply Christians, no qualifications." I heard no religious leader anywhere object to Robertson's outrageous assertion. Even now, no one with influence dares to call Robertson what he really is: a greedy phony whose prayers wishing death for Supreme Court judges, and his call for using nukes on opponents, flirt with incitement to murder and treason. Finally, the phrase "rightwing Christians," like the term "radical Muslims," implies that these political operatives are acting as some kind of Christian, ie, from a religious impulse. That is simply not so. Men like Robertson or Randall Terry are political opportunists and demagogues who cower behind Christian symbols to immunize themselves from criticism. A few years ago, I proposed the term "Christianists" to describe these politcal activists, in parallel with the accepted term "Islamists" that describes their counterparts in the Islamic world. Joe Conason told me the term has started to catch on, apparently. "Christianism" has the advantage of making it clear that these people are exploiting religion, not practicing it. Che's lounge: There's nothing that distinguishes libertarian notions of freedom from Paine's except this: to a libertarian, freedom also means that s/he has a moral right to ignore everyone else's needs or suffering. I do not find that kind of attitude interesting, sensible, or realistic, let alone morally acceptable. Doctor Ace, It's typical of libertarianism elitists to accuse opponents of ignorance without any context or reference. It merely highlights my point: that libertarianism is incoherent and intellectually slothful. Either describe in detail what about libertarianism you think I don't understand or, better yet, practice that supposed ultimate libertarian virtue and just leave me alone.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#23)
    by chupetin on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 09:33:17 AM EST
    As far as I can tell, there is no difference between a Libertarian and a Republican. From the posts of the so-called libertarians on this blog they approve of everything this administration has done and will continue to defend and support Bush no matter what.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 09:36:18 AM EST
    PIL - Glad to know you are channeling Thomas Jefferson today. When you get a chance, ask him about that alleged relationship with the slave girl. I have always wondered how he squared that with his public image. pigwiggle - If libertarians are jumping ship, the direction, if any, they are jumping, is certainly unclear. In the end the libertarians must decide if they are for more taxes, and more programs with less reform, or for less taxes, with an attempt to reform. Since, I believe, you claim to a libertarian, what say you? mfox - If "ifs and buts" were "candy and nuts"" we'd all have a merry christmas. You know, it is true that life doesn't phone ahead. One day we are alive, and the next, dead. We can control neither, although, if lucky, we can influence the process. You can run by a thousand possibilities and never cover them all, and as anyone who has my avocation will attest, all hot streaks come to an end. The measure of the person is in how they accept defeat. The Schiavo affair identified a deep split in the country. On one side we had those who were willing to accept a husband's statement, and a judge's decision in face of numerous appatrently contradictions. On the other we had those who would not accept that. The water was muddied by claims and counter claims of medical importance and infallability. If we get lucky, those in charge on both sides will gather and look each other in th eye and say: We did some things wrong here. Communication has changed the world. We need to revise the rules.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:19:26 AM EST
    Libertarian: "a Republican with a hard-on", heard somewhere, from someone, on the internet. i.e., PPJ (aka Jim) at April 4, 2005 10:36 AM

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:21:11 AM EST
    Barbara, TalkLeft never refers to the religious right or the Christian right. It imbues the right with a religious legitimacy to which they are not entitled. We always refer to them as the "radical right." There's nothing noble or Christian about the right. When talking about evangelical Christians, we refer to them as "evangelical Christians."

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    Exactly, Jeralyn.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:55:56 AM EST
    TL There's nothing noble or Christian about the right. As long as we're throwing around unqualified statements, let me say that There is nothing noble or Christian about the Left. And I think a quick consultation of the Good Book, as well as a comparative study of the respective Left and Right party platforms, lends more credance to my unqualified statement than it does yours.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:03:07 AM EST
    Save it horse...if Jesus were alive today, you would call him a pinko liberal, and you know it.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:11:18 AM EST
    alleged relationship with the slave girl
    Like most progressives, Jefferson was not frightened by having a relationship with someone of a different race... Of course he had to make it appear she was his slave so that all the PPJs of his time didn't try to tar and feather the both of them.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:18:29 AM EST
    And I think a quick consultation of the Good Book, as well as a comparative study of the respective Left and Right party platforms, lends more credance to my unqualified statement than it does yours. And I think a quick comparison about the relative honesty and trustworthiness of the people making those kind of statements, a look at the actions of those making the claim that they are noble and Christian, as well as that comparative study of the respective Left and Right party platforms you mention, would lend much more credence to Jeralyn's statements than yours. Maybe it's just me...

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:18:34 AM EST
    What is christianity without the crucifixion? What is christianity without the resurrection?
    Well, I imagine it would be...Christianity! I mean it would be what Jesus taught, such that one might discern gleamings of his character and his comportment in those who follow his example. Antithetical to the obscenity which is the ideological betrayl of same that is Pauline theology. Antithetical to the atrocity which is the institutionalized betrayl that is the Roman Church--a betrayl, by the way, which no subsequent r/Reformation has ever touched or attempted to effect a reversal.
    Paul said without the resurrection our faith is worthless.
    Excellent, for you must divest yourself of all riches and claims to same to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. ""Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." as Matthew had it. Fools. The problem with fundamentalists of all stripes is that they have precisely lost sight of just what is most fundamental. The problem with textual literalists is they do not know how nor will they read the text in front of their nose.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:50:06 AM EST
    Barry, you could not have made a more spectacular example of your ignorance of Christianity than that post above. According to Christian belief, heaven cannot be "earned", but was won for humanity by the passion and ressurection of Jesus. As Mark Twain said: "Heaven is by favor only. If it were by merit, you'd stay out and your dog would go in." Tris, you are indeed irony-proof. You say, "...such obviously bogus tripe as libertarianism has caught on among the so-called smart set," but provide no insight as to why you think it is bogus. Then, when I say you don't know what you don't know, you prove me right by saying: "...describe in detail what about libertarianism you think I don't understand..." Tris, I already did that. You don't understand it at all, or you never would have first, called it bogus, and second, retorted to my answer with "describe in detail..." You have no business disparaging libertarians, Tris, because you are not smart enough to make a judgment about libertarianism, which is the basis of it. You are nor smart enough to be buitting into other people's business because you don't know what you don't know. (...some people know what they don't know.)

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:58:07 AM EST
    Tom - its just you. Anyone who takes their faith seriously can weigh the respective party platforms and make an informed decision. And I'll tell you, as an informed voter, it's no wonder most Christians end up on the Right side of the aisle. If the Dem party wishes to change that, let them be warned that its going to require more than false promises, slight-of-hand, and attempted shaming of those of faith.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:14:01 PM EST
    Thanks Ace, beginning to like you As to Jesus as "wonderful teacher", C.S. Lewis points out Jesus doesn't give us that - He was God incarnate or blasphemer supreme (deserving of whatever death the Jewish authorities desired for him). Only his resurrection proved which. Now where all this started was comparing Terri Schiavo to Jesus Christ ( speaking of blasphemy ). Barry: Poor in "spirit" (not wealth - which He talked about elsewhere). I and most of my ilk take that as broken in ego, arrogance, self etc.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:32:32 PM EST
    V2marty - There are many things that I will ignore, but being called a racist by someone who has no knowledge of me is not one of them. My point to PIL was simple. Ask the man why he was so hypocritical about the relationship, and how he justified it in his mind. If that's racist V2, your rocket never got off the ground. As for your "most progressives...," well the country must have been just full of'em. Now, can you tell us how having a sexual relationship with someone you have absolute power over can be considered proper in any context? I'd love to hear it. Prove your point or drop the subject. out - Nope, and not even close if you were well informed enough to have read more than 20 threads you would know that I am social liberal. And no, I don't have the time to educate you.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:36:03 PM EST
    I'm one of those Christians on the Left. And darn proud of it. And I like what someone else said previously--if Jesus were alive today, he'd be considered a pinko liberal. True enough, and he'd be proud of it, too.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:43:07 PM EST
    Claxton/kdog and others: I think all of us should be careful about thinking Jesus would like any of our politics. On the left: abortion? Disrespect for the civil authority? (he showed none at his trial and execution). On the right? I wouldnt want to face him after damning a women getting an abortion. Jesus was about one thing - getting yourself in line with God's heart.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:48:45 PM EST
    Claxton If Jesus were alive today, would he side with the ACLU and help them rid the land of his teaching? Would he join in the God-mocking in the majority of the other 'pinko-commie Liberals'? I doubt it. But you have. You need not justify yourself to me, I'm just making an observation.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:49:27 PM EST
    JCH beat me too it.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:49:55 PM EST
    'to' it, lol. I'll say no more on this thread.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 12:53:34 PM EST
    JC, maybe you'll still like me after you read this (and maybe you won't). I was raised in a devout Christian family and I consider myself the better for it. I have no doubt that the founding fathers of America meant by religious freedom that people were free to proclaim their religious faith openly, to use it to make moral decisions, to vote according to it, and so on. I am fiscally and socially conservative, and I know that America is a great country by dint of where we came from, that it is a social good for the 10 Commandments, which stand for truth and honesty, to be displayed in public, etc., and I therefore will defend religious freedom to the end. However, while I see Jesus as a great man, I am agnostic in my personal life, and for myself, practice freedom from religion. While I see the left as rather fully discrediting themselves as rational thinkers due to their abysmal ignorance of math and economics, I an disappointed of many conservatives by their refusal to accept the facts of science and evolution. And yes, many will say that religious faith can coexist with evolution and maybe they're right, but while I see the tremendous power of the life force, nevertheless, I see no evidence of of any special attention given to any individual in it, whether one of the leaves or insects from last summer, or any individual human. (That's an importance we, as individuals must ascribe.) But I digress. Sorry, TL, I went a long way from the original topic.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Ace: hopefully TL will allow one more weirdness and then i will get off here. You will probably know what i mean when i say my 10th birthday is on April 9th. Prior to that i had years in so far left these people looked like conservatives to me. I have got no problem with people who understand what they oppose and speak accurately. I respect debate with people who are informed I still like you

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 01:54:51 PM EST
    I don't have the time to educate you.
    u funnie dude! you do like the attention though! power on! the intellect and scholarship you have demonstrated on this site would leave one questioning your ability to comprehend, reason, and accept. "Read the KAY Report", debunked several times by Kay himself, yet you hold the mantra as infallible truth! yeah u funnie dude!!! but you do like the attention! drive on!

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 02:16:51 PM EST
    What if she told you she didn't want to live as a vegetable? Heck, even if she didn't. Unless your spouse specifically said something to the effect of: "Hot diggity, me in a coma?! Don't I wish! And if it ever happens, don't you try to end it either, even after a decade or more; that'd be like losing a winning lottery ticket!"--you can reasonably assume that no, that wouldn't be her preference.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 02:27:04 PM EST
    Out - Why don't you refute, with a link? Instead you just make claims. Heck, any teenager can do that.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 02:36:49 PM EST
    Jim, lying as usual: " PIL - ...ask him about that alleged relationship with the slave girl. I have always wondered how he squared that with his public image." This famous LIE by the R scholars is just that. Thom. Jefferson was not the world's most highly-sexed human being. There is NO evidence he had sex with ANYONE after his wife passed away. He apparently had a platonic affair with a British married woman while he was in France -- mostly by mail. That's it. His brother, also a widower, and his nephew (brother's son) are in the historical (as in FACTS) record 'staying up nights drinking and dancing with the slaves.' Hmm...alcohol, women and men, and dancing in the hot Virginia night. Sounds like a FOX nudie in the making. That's where the DNA came from, and it's obvious, but Rs have spent a lot of time and Scaife money trying to smear our Founding Fathers and great presidents. In favor of their bastards, liars, and fools. And their chapped-lip followers, Jim. -- Barbara, I should have used a single-quote to refer to 'American Christianity,' which I meant as the sort of brand name being refered to in the statistical claims of 'accepting resurrection' above. Christianity itself is many things to many people. It is hard to square rightwing Christians (as they define themselves, TL--we can hardly be running a True Religion test every time the terminology is used) praying in public in front of that hospice, for instance. "Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..." Maybe that's why their prayer DIDN'T WORK (again). Anti-scientism is a key to rightwing Christian 'belief.' And it is a SIN against Americanism. No sign that the public-praying 'Christians' have the characteristics of the gospels, the Sermon on the Mount, or any of the moral virtues one might expect -- so EXCUSE us if we chose the Americanism, and keep our religious activities private. That way they might even be pertinent to the real issues (such as loving ones enemies, Hannity), and not some kind of Phariseism in the public square fighting over the Top Pig in the Sty honors.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:02:38 PM EST
    Doc Ace: "Faith without works is dead" Although christians claim that all are saved by grace should they accept christ, the bible clearly states that faith without works is dead. Dead faith literally interpreted would imply that without works there is no acceptance into the kingdom of heaven. I too, was raised in a christian home and studied to be a minister, and insofar as the grace versus faith argument goes, one cannot exist without the other. What I find most curious is the lack of understanding from the christian right regarding the catholic faith, whereas catholics, who do not believe in accepting christ, are almost all going to hell. Ask Pat Robertson whether or not catholics get into heave and see how he responds. Same with Graham and Falwell... What I also find interesting is that most atheists and agnostics are not out stumping for new recruits, as a rule most of us do not try to change anyone's faith one way or the other, but I have yet to meet a christian that did not feel inclined to try and "save me".....

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:23:37 PM EST
    Jlv, ultimately I consider such debate as whether or not this or that group is destined for heaven or hell equivalent to how many angels can dance on a pin, etc., HOWEVER! very interesting that you brought up the faith w/out works concept. If nothing else, my upbringing has convinced me that you are what you do. If you promulgate straightforward talk and refuse to steal, you are honest, if not, you are dishonest, etc. Therefore, the 60s pop song is wrong: we are NOT "the same, whatever we do." And so forth.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:46:18 PM EST
    gonna have to echo chamber, and cheerlead: Jlvngstn at April 4, 2005 04:02 PM. it may also be interesting to note how many atheists and agnostics were raised in a christian home and studied to be ministers. PPJ the links have been provided to you, on numerous occasions, you refuse to educate / enlighten yourself. u funnie dude! how you do enjoy the attention! charge on!

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    PIL - Somehow I have a hard time associating you Jefferson. And hey, don't you know the meaning of "alleged?" Good grief. And Repub schoolars? Really PIL, you exceed yourself. That is soooo funny. Who do you think you are fooling by making up such silly charges? Out - Read this. Now, let's wait for an open thread.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    The twisting of the Catholic faith by non-Catholic Christians is amazing to me. It's like saying your grandmother wasn't an ancestor of yours because you don't have the same color eyes. Catholics BELIEVE IN CHRIST. They are Christians. For Protestants to deny that is for them to deny where their religion came from, and all their religious history. But then, education in facts and reality is not always a strong point in some (not all) Protestant belief systems.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#53)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:08:27 PM EST
    PPJ- “Since, I believe, you claim to a libertarian, what say you?” For me it has always been easy; I punch an almost straight libertarian ticket, always. When I can’t vote libertarian I vote for the candidate that most closely fits the ideal, and given two almost identical candidates I just don’t vote. Anyway, it’s all local for me; I especially get a kick out of voting for judges.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:57:54 PM EST
    Ace - Great,lucid defense of libertarianism - "youre not intelligent enough to understand it because if you were you wouldnt criticize it." Sounds like you just went from one authoritarian/fundamentalism to another. Explains alot of your other sympathies.

    Re: Judges Not to Blame in Schiavo Case (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:36:30 PM EST
    You are all way off topic. The thread is about judges. I won't delete the comments so far, but future off topic ones will be deleted.