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Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds

This afternoon on the Senate floor, Senator John Cornyn gave an astounding account of the recent spate of violence against judges, suggesting that the crimes could be attributed to the fact that judges are "unaccountable" to the public. (Video here. )

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN: "I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that's been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in - engage in violence." [Senate Floor, 4/4/05]

[Unfortunately, there are no public links to floor transcripts.]

Sen. Cornyn is a member of the Judiciary Committee as well as a former Texas supreme court justice and attorney general. This kind of talk is unacceptable.

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    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:10:04 PM EST
    Boy these Repugs are incredible. The Judges are telling evangelicals wackjobs to bring it on! Lets see now Black folks are acting like blacks so they are encouraging white folks to lynch them. Sounds good to me.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:15:14 PM EST
    I was really revolted when I read this. When I started reading the quote, I somehow was actually silly enough to think he was going to criticize the overheated rhetoric of the right wing that often uses such violent and extremist language when talking about judges. But no, he just criticized the judges for getting themselves shot. Truly disgusting.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:16:59 PM EST
    I wonder if Sen. Cornyn will follow that reasoning to it's logical conclusion and call for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution? There's a somewhat interesting book just out called "Electing Justice" that looks at the problems with the U.S. appointment process and offers solutions, including elections.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    Of course, this is the same guy who honored Tom Coleman -- the racist cop from Tulia, Texas -- with his "Lawman of the Year" award when he was Texas attorney general.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:28:54 PM EST
    Funny, you like Ward Connelly for bringing his message of chickens coming home to roost. Yet, this nutjob offers a thought as to why there may or may not be violence against judges and you criticize him. And you wonder why repubs think dems are soft...

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:36:53 PM EST
    et al - There is no connection between the political discussion now going on and the common criminals seeking to kill, or having killed, judges. The Senator should consider his facts and his position, which is appalling.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#7)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:37:16 PM EST
    Funny, BocaJeff thinks judges ought to be killed. And you wonder why Dems think Repugs are insane...

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#8)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    Jim, I think that's the worst part. Evidently this Republican likes the idea of a world in which conservative vigilantes kill "activist judges" instead of the apparently random murders we've seen in the past few weeks. How many other people are similarly disconnected from reality? (actually there was a blog discussion about lunatic fantasies of conservative assassins not too long ago...)

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 04:57:30 PM EST
    The thing is, this guy's comments have no basis in reality. There is no violent populist uprising against the courts. The shootings in Atlanta were done by an accused rapist. The other judge's relatives were killed by a distrubed man. The Senator is simply making thing up to suit his own point of view, and to attempt to strike fear into judges, same as DeLay's comments.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:00:06 PM EST
    allen, lifetime appointments are there for a reason, and they are strongly defended by both conservatives and liberals who have respect for the rule of law, such as Chief Justice William Rehnquist, who was a Nixon appointee. Among the reasons: Many federal cases go on for years and years. Should a judge be up for re-election every 4 years, parties in cases or with interests in cases (particularly ones with a lot of money) could influence the outcomes of cases by contributing to the campaigns of judges, or to those running against them in an election. Cornyn, DeLay, et.al. really want to control the judiciary using money, the power of congress, or whatever it takes to advance their political agendas. Party-faithful Republican intellectuals reframe it in terms of an "independent judiciary", but of course what they really want is the opposite of independence. They want control.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:24:15 PM EST
    Michael - The most troubling thing about your response is that you think elections take place at 4 year intervals. It's somewhat less troubling that you think that re-elections are always necessary. But my first point was simply that a Senator who believed that there really was popular discontent with the way federal judges are appointed would propose changes to solve the perceived problem. Your insinuation that someone who questions lifetime appointments doesn't respect the rule of law is just ignorant.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:28:36 PM EST
    Thank you Talk Left for this post. I have written both of my senators asking for them to call for his censure. I also wrote Sen. Cornyn to remind him that his logic is akin to blaming a rape victim for the rapist's crime & that we still live in country in which the branches are designed to operate independently. How tenuous that suddenly seems.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:39:23 PM EST
    This is just the start. Its going to be a bloodbath over all judges. The rehtoric will get steeming

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:47:15 PM EST
    Allen, "The most troubling thing about your response is that you think elections take place at 4 year intervals." ...really? This seems like the lamest criticism I've ever seen. Would it really change things if it was a 6 year interval? Or 6.5? 6.99?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:48:05 PM EST
    From AmericaBlog, pretty much the entire of the scary comments by Cornyn: Here's the text of what Cornyn said, 4:54 PM Eastern time today, in context - he clearly is blaming the judges for the violence against them.
    …it causes a lot of people, including me, great distress to see judges use the authority that they have been given to make raw political or ideological decisions. And no one, including those judges, including the judges on the United States Supreme Court, should be surprised if one of us stands up and objects.
    And, Mr. President, I'm going to make clear that I object to some of the decision-making process that is occurring at the United States Supreme Court today and now. I believe that insofar as the Supreme Court has taken on this role as a policy-maker rather than an enforcer of political decisions made by elected representatives of the people, it has led to the increasing divisiveness and bitterness of our confirmation fights. That is a very current problem that this body faces today. It has generated a lack of respect for judges generally. I mean, why should people respect a judge for making a policy decision borne out of an ideological conviction any more than they would respect or deny themselves the opportunity to disagree if that decision were made by an elected representative?
    Of course the difference is that they can throw the rascal -- the rascal out -- and we are sometimes perceived as the rascal -- if they don't like the decisions that we make. But they can't vote against a judge because judges aren't elected. They serve for a lifetime on the federal bench. And, indeed, I believe this increasing politicalization of the judicial decision-making process at the highest levels of our judiciary have bred a lack of respect for some of the people that wear the robe. And that is a national tragedy.
    And finally, I – I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that's been on the news. And I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in -- engage in violence. Certainly without any justification but a concern that I have that I wanted to share.
    You know, it's ironic, if you look back, as we all have, being students of history in this body, all of us have been elected to other -- to other bodies and other offices and we're all familiar with the founding documents, the declaration of independence, the constitution itself, we're familiar with the federalist papers that were written in an effort to get the constitution ratified in New York state. Well, Alexander Hamilton, apropos of what I want to talk about here, authored a series of essays in the Federalist Papers that opined that the judicial branch would be what he called the -- quote -- "least dangerous branch of government." The "least dangerous branch." He pointed out that the judiciary lacked the power of the executive branch, the white house, for example, and the federal government and the political passions of the legislature. In other words, the congress. Its sole purpose -- that is, the federal judiciary's sole purpose was to objectively interpret and apply the laws of the land and in...
    - k

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#16)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:51:10 PM EST
    And also, Allen, it is blatantly dishonest for you to to imply that judges needing re-election is not an inherent part of the conservative dream. Part of conservative dogma is that judges can be perverted by the liberal elite, or merely posing as god-fearing true americans while being in fact godless abortionists, and so there needs to be a method to knock them down off their ivory tower even after they are elected.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#17)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:54:43 PM EST
    "I believe that insofar as the Supreme Court has taken on this role as a policy-maker rather than an enforcer of political decisions made by elected representatives of the people, it has led to the increasing divisiveness and bitterness of our confirmation fights." Yeah, if only those activist judges had followed the will of the people and kept Jim Crow, our society wouldn't be divided at all! Can we officially declare that "Party of Lincoln" thing dead now?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 05:55:49 PM EST
    Seems preety tame to me once you put it in context. Pretty much boilerplate conservatism. This is all showprep for the comming war.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:13:15 PM EST
    It seems to me that what the Senator says about judges is an implied threat and could be considered a lot more incidiary than what Ward Churchill ever said. What he's basically telling judges is that they need to watch out or they might get killed. If Congress keeps running roughshod over the American people and trying to destroy the provisions of the Constitution, we can always have another Revolution. It's our right according to the Declaration of Independence.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:36:11 PM EST
    rather than an enforcer of political decisions made by elected representatives of the people
    That sort of says it all. Which do they want--strict constructionists who enforce every word of the constitution without interpreting it, or do they want the Supreme Court to enforce every law they write whether or not it passes constitutional muster? The bottom line is that if judges always issue rulings that they agree with, that means they're fair and unbiased. But if a judge ever issues a ruling that goes against the party platform of the week, then they are "activist" and have to be impeached, shot, or whatever other fate might befall them. allen: The term for most elected offices, as well as political appointees, is four years--from the dog catcher all the way up to the President, with the Congress being the only notable exception. I'm frankly not impressed with your faux shock. As scarshapedstar notes, it doesn't matter if the term is 7 years, five months, thirteen days. It still turns the judiciary into a political group subject to the whims of whoever can contribute the most soft money. On the other point I agree. Cornyn should put up or shut up. But as we know, posturing brings in more campaign donations than does compromising. And there's no better way to "energize the base" than to threaten judges out of one side of your mouth while proselytizing the "culture of life" out of the other.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:37:41 PM EST
    scar - Since I am neither Repub or conservative, I don't bother trying to defend a particular position. In this I think the Senator has just overstated his case. But he really should pull his foot out of his mouth. The judicary issue is serious, and a concern to many. We don't need scare tactics from anyone. We do need for the Senate to get off its behind, pull the plug on the filibuster, and then either reject or confirm these new judges.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#22)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 06:55:42 PM EST
    At the time of the Oklahoma City bombing, BJ Clinton openly blamed it on "hate" (conservative) radio. Not true, of course, but then, that's Clinton. I don't see much difference here. Cornyn, in my opinion, is making a case which is false on its facts--the shooters recently don't seem to have been outraged at judicial activists--but still relevant to the question of accountability. Pressure builds up. Accountability relieves pressure. If pressure is not relieved, the unbalanced may snap. Seems like a reasonable description of reality to me. As an example, the Family Independence Agency in Michigan has committed some outrageous, incredible howlers, both by taking kids who were in no way abused or in jeopardy, keeping them from their parents, deep-sixing exculpatory evidence, and making the parents the subject of vile accusations. On the other hand, they have returned children to torturers. In either case, they refuse to explain, citing privacy, until every last person involved has retired or nobody remembers anything. And the state insists on sovereign immunity, so the offended can't even recover shrink costs for their damaged kids once they're retrieved from The Man. This, I will guarantee you, is building pressure and will result in tragedy. I mean more tragedy. Somebody's going to kill a FIA social worker--again, I mean--because there is no recourse. Nobody has to like it to predict it. It is, however, vile, vicious, and utterly predictable on this board to find people saying Cornyn either approves of the shooting or is threatening them. What he did was seek to explain them. Nowhere did he excuse them. You all know the difference, but for partisan purposes you choose to misrepresent the case. As I keep saying, you can nod solemnly at each other, figuratively speaking, when you blow this kind of smoke. But you convince nobody. I mean, you convince nobody of what you say. You do lead a good many to think about what you are.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:17:37 PM EST
    SENATOR JOHN CORNYN: "I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that's been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in - engage in violence." [Senate Floor, 4/4/05]
    Aside from the issue of the Senate wanting to control the Judiciary (and I concur that is beyond sick) I do not see anything outrageous about Sen. Coryn's statement in and of itself. I do not see where he advocates, condones or encourages the killing of Judges. All I see from what has been posted is him exploring a possible reason why this is happening. And I think the man has a point. For example.. Look at Judge Judith Retchin....she admitted that her reason for sentencing Jonathan Magbie to 10 days in jail was because he said he would not stop using medical marijuana. She said she and her staff made a mistake in determining whether or not the jail could meet his very advanced medical needs. And he died an awful death. And she is still on the bench, cleared of any wrong doing and ready for the next invalid pot smoker that winds up in her coourtroom. Unaccountable. Completely Unaccountable. And there is no way for the public to hold her accountable since Judges aren't elected. There is no legal recourse. Yet the FBI came to my house investigating an alleged website posting that they considered a possible threat against Judge Retchin made by someone else on a site and server hosted in Canada. I do not and never would advcate violence against anyone but I see a lot of injustice in courtrooms here in Alabama and it isn't hard to see what it is that pushes people over the edge. Not condoning it. Not advocating it. Simply acknowledging it.


    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:19:23 PM EST
    Richard, The Atlanta and Chicago murders are evidence of an accoutability problem? What "accountability" would have prevented those horrible tragedies? your rant about the child services agency is quite revealing.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 07:22:16 PM EST
    Loretta, Stating that violence against judges is "understandable" sends a message..that one would be "justified" in taking such actions. And with the mentally ill and Talibanic zealots out there, such a "suggestion" will be welcomed. Or does everyting have to stated literally for you to see it?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimcee on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    To all concerned, Do you think a recitation of "evil deeds" is an argument? No, anyone honest doesn't want judges assasinnated but it wouldn't hurt that they be less legally subjective about their decisions. Less cocktail party acccepted than real life judgements. Perhaps I'm just too .......

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#27)
    by BigTex on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:02:55 PM EST
    Isn't th' reason we have free speech laws is so that statements like that can come out? Maybe I'm all alone on this un, but it seemed that th' Senator was makin' a comment that draws a possible connection between th' two issues, not an encouragin' o' assassinatin' black robes. Th' few instances o' courtroom, and in general citizen against non enforcement legal system (shootin' an attorney, etc), back in m' old stompin' grounds has been fer one o' two reasons. One is it's imnates thinkin' they can escape. Th' second is fer personal reasons. They didn't like how long that a loved one was sentenced to, or they didn't like that an attorney refused t' take their case. Th' Senator makes a valad point, there is th' risk o' violence against judges becasue o'umpopular opinions. Becasue he is a Senator, does that suddenly mean he has t' forgo his 1st Amendment right o' free speech?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:05:18 PM EST
    Just want to throw this into the debate concerning how to resolve the problem of life-time appointments and a way to diffuse the political partisianship concerning Supreme Court nominees. I can't remember which Constitutional scholar proposed this, and I don't know the exact scheme (the staggering and year length might be slightly off), but the gist was that Supreme Court justices would be elected and serve for 18 year periods, with the elections of justices staggered to evenly spread presidential supreme court nominations. Once the system was fully adopted, most likely grandfathering the lifetime appointees and as they retired/passed away wait until the proper time to elect the justice to properly stagger,and eventually come out to 1-2 nominations in an every presidential term to the Supreme Court. I think its an innovative idea and one that can apply to the lower federal judiciary as well. If adopted to the district and circuit courts as well, it would substantially differ from a simple 4 or 6 year judicial election term.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:49:40 PM EST
    Perhaps this good official needs to be reminded of the fate of Charles I.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 08:58:40 PM EST
    Silo, I will presume you actually believe your implications, on account of an unhappy childhood. So. Here's a question: Where did I say the Atlanta and other shootings were a result of a lack of accountability? Here's another: What does my rant about child protective services reveal? For the record; I am not an orphan--my father is still alive. I was not adopted, nor was I ever taken from my home, nor were my kids taken from theirs (ours). My kids are not adopted. They are ours the old-fashioned way. Now. What did my rant reveal? Your question to Loretta is less excusable. To deliberately and with malice conflate "understand" which means able to follow the process with "approve" is inexcusable. Not that your side doesn't do it every chance it gets, but it's still inexcusable.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 09:51:42 PM EST
    Now whose making 'death threats'?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    Why does the death cult object to this logical outgrowth of their annihilationist fetish?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#33)
    by ron on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:35:54 PM EST
    Richard: Let's stick to the truth. Sen. Cornyn has a lot of experience as a judge and AG. The recent violence has received tremendous coverage. There is simply no reason to believe he is ignorant of the facts surrounding these cases. As has been noted on this thread, what the senator's remark constitutes is an implied threat against judges who rule against the Christian right. It's sort of a passive/agressive approach to stay on the offensive in the judicial nomination debate. He's saying that the natives are getting restless, so we need to change things before more bad things happen. There's a pattern of agression toward the federal judiciary. Rep. DeLay also recently threatened judges, saying they would "answer" for their decisions. While not violent in context, it is still irresponsible, especially considering that the judges he referred to refused to assume an "activist" role. And while the Clinton/talk radio thing was wrong, the word "hate" certainly applied to the OKC bombing. And it was politically motivated. And it is the far right that rails against the federal government. So I don't think it's correct to equate the two. Talking about unhappy childhoods, maybe you were dropped on the head a few too many times.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:38:18 PM EST
    Aw, it's no big deal. Why just the other day I, myself was wondering aloud on the Senate floor. Pretty stupid. Does he read this stuff before he pukes it out? Stupid Or not

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#35)
    by ron on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:45:05 PM EST
    Or using your terms Richard, Sen. Cornyn is arguing for "pressure" (liberal, activist judges) to be "relieved" through the appointment of more responsible (right-wing)judges.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 10:45:26 PM EST
    It's an interesting line of logic Cornyn uses. I wonder if he would be so quick to subscribe to it in other respects:
    I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of terrorism around the world. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of terrorism recently that's been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where nations are making ... decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in - engage in violence.


    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 11:32:01 PM EST
    the senator is simply making thing up to suit his own point of view,
    we call that repubbblicanism!

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 04:10:31 AM EST
    Loretta, Stating that violence against judges is "understandable" sends a message..that one would be "justified" in taking such actions. And with the mentally ill and Talibanic zealots out there, such a "suggestion" will be welcomed. Or does everyting have to stated literally for you to see it?
    silo, I disagree that saying violence against judges is understandable equates to one "being justified" in taking such actions. That whole scenario reminds me of "If I told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?" Further....what makes you think that I need things stated literally in order to be able to understand them? Personal attacks diminish your side of the debate and make you appear childish and immature. But hey....it's your prerogative if you wish to appear that way. ---------------------------------- wg, I'd love to have a copy of the Retchin report. Email me at cnall1@charter.net and instruct further on how I might obtain one of those.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#40)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 04:52:15 AM EST
    Silo. Missed again. I said Cornyn was wrong on the facts about the shooters. Got that? I also said that pressure, not relieved, can lead to explosions. It's true with steam boilers and it's true in human affairs. Indeed, Freud built a substantial part of his theories on the latter. If the natives--citizens--are restless, two things follow: One is that they're restless, a simple description. The other is that things could be relieved by a change, a simple description. There is no suggestion that the change would be good in the long run. Still, the description could be accurate. But, as I say, there is no hint in the description that the explosionis would be a Good Thing. Pretending somewone who predicts a result you don't like approves or even is trying to cause it is nasty and vile and typical. Still, only you believe it, and then, you probably don't, either. That you continue the effort is illuminating. Besides, restless citizens in a democracy are entitled to have their concerns addressed. Even if lefties don't like the idea. Few people in this society ought to be completely and utterly immune from some consequences of their decisions. Making judges only distantly responsible is a good thing in one sense, but it leaves them free to commit the most egregious offenses with little or no consequence. And as they say, power corrupts. When a judge does something horrible--see Retchin--to expect the citizenry to smile brightly and say, "No problem. Do it again, please." is not the way to make money. What, exactly, to do about it is unclear, but expecting nobody to complain is unrealistic. You still haven't said what my rant about the Family Protective Services reveals. Ron. That would relieve some of the pressure. As a recent election shows, there are no few conservatives in this country and having a higher percentage of cases go their way might be a relief.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 07:45:58 AM EST
    Bottom line - Senators don't make floor statements (especially when the full Senate is not in session) randomly. These are deliberately thought out and scripted after consultation with staff and colleagues. This was a measured and intentional statement meant to be heard by judges - that they must temper their rulings to the ruling class or they will be to blame if they are targeted for violence. This was not a random off the cuff speech by a loose cannon. It was a warning.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 08:23:22 AM EST
    I like Portland Communique's paraphrase about six posts up. With apologies to him or her I'd like to extend it a bit. Imagine that Hillary Clinton said: "I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of terrorism around the world. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of terrorism recently that's been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where a world power is making ... decisions yet is unaccountable to the rest of the world, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in - engage in violence." How do you think that would be received by our current "patriots"?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#44)
    by txpublicdefender on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 08:45:53 AM EST
    Well, I've already called Cornyn's office in D.C. to complain. His phone answerer stated that Sen. Cornyn condemns all violence against judges. I told him that if that were the case, he would retract the outrageous comments he made on the Senate floor. Of course what Cornyn said was not a direct threat to harm or kill a judge. But he is directly stating that it is possible that the reason judges are being violently attacked is because people are rightfully fed up with their rulings. I'm sure he would "condemn" the violence itself, but that doesn't stop him from inciting others to it; it doesn't stop him from giving rhetorical support to the violent extremists. And let's be honest here. Republicans want activist judges. They just want them to be activist their way.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 08:49:20 AM EST
    The 1961 movie Judgment At Nuremberg is about the trial by the USA of German judges who were appointed by the Nazis specifically to follow the Party line and ignore human rights and the independence of the judiciary. Some of the posters here need to see the movie. History is very useful in helping you decide which side of an issue to be on, regardless of what your Party leaders and Faux News are telling you.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#46)
    by Adept Havelock on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 09:18:01 AM EST
    And let's be honest here. Republicans want activist judges. They just want them to be activist their way.
    And that is the purpose of all these temper-tantrums from the right.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 09:36:45 AM EST
    I cannot believe you all here are so opposed to this- It is one thing to disagree with what he says, but you all should be supportive of his right to say it! Freedom of Speech! If you don't have that in the Halls of Governance, then what kind of Dark Age are you trying to promote! What goes for a lowly Professor as Ward Churchill should also go for a Senator, shouldn't it? Why the outrage?

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#48)
    by txpublicdefender on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 09:43:51 AM EST
    I cannot believe you all here are so opposed to this- It is one thing to disagree with what he says, but you all should be supportive of his right to say it! Freedom of Speech! If you don't have that in the Halls of Governance, then what kind of Dark Age are you trying to promote!
    Statements like this are ridiculous. We aren't saying Cornyn doesn't have the free speech rights to make the comments. I don't think the general comments here have said anything about locking Cornyn up, fining him, suing him, or taking any legal action against him for his comments. We're denouncing the comments and him for making them. That's a part of free speech, too. Just because you believe people have the right to say stupid, vile, and otherwise disgusting things doesn't mean you can't speak out yourself in condemnation against those statements.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:05:53 AM EST
    "We're denouncing the comments and him for making them." Fair enough. But you said earlier you called on him to retract them. I do not remember anyone from the left calling on Ward to retract his considerably worse (IMHO) statements. And if you aren't out for firing him, I'm sure he appreciates your vote in the next election.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:09:44 AM EST
    nohelp - I have the movie in my collection. But people should really study history, not depend on movies, for history. txpub writes - "because people are rightfully fed up..." No tx, he did not even come close to saying that.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:11:47 AM EST
    RA, understand that this comment is coming from someone who often agrees with you - you've gotta find the "enter" key on your keyboard and make paragraphs separated by blank lines. Without the blank lines your posts are big overwhelming blocks of words with no breaks, and are, as a result, very difficult to read. I end up scanning your first sentance and then skipping to the next post. I'm sure I'm not the only one...

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:14:00 AM EST
    "restless citizens in a democracy are entitled to have their concerns addressed. Even if lefties don't like the idea. Few people in this society ought to be completely and utterly immune from some consequences of their decisions. Making judges only distantly responsible is a good thing in one sense, but it leaves them free to commit the most egregious offenses with little or no consequence. And as they say, power corrupts. When a judge does something horrible--see Retchin--to expect the citizenry to smile brightly and say, "No problem. Do it again, please." is not the way to make money. What, exactly, to do about it is unclear, but expecting nobody to complain is unrealistic." _______________________________Dear Richard, I'm all for complaining about things that are unjust. I do it all the time. Public and private concerns should be addressed. If one believes that a judge has erred, one may take an appeal and have the decision reviewed. Which is what was done in the Schiavo case....many times. A judge's decision is not utterly immune, as his or her decision may be reversed if he or she misapplied the law, made it a "personal" case, or simply blew the facts. You don't define "egregious offenses", but judges are not immune to the criminal law. Decisions that one disagrees with, but are reviewed many times over for error, cannot be put in that category. The Schiavo judge didn't do anything "horrible", as he applied the law to the facts that were presented to him. He can evaluate credibility of the witnesses. That certain facts may be disputed does not prevent a judge from deciding a case. By suggesting that violent responses are "understandable", Cornyn made a deliberate and calculated threat...rule the "right" way or we may not be able to protect you...be safe and rule the "right" way. About my child protective services comment, you had devoted a lot of text to that hypothetical. I was simply wondering if your example was one based on facts with which you are intimately familiar. Or if not, why that example regarding the actions of an administrative agency (subject to review by the courts, of course) was sticking in your craw.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#53)
    by txpublicdefender on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:19:50 AM EST
    Fair enough. But you said earlier you called on him to retract them. I do not remember anyone from the left calling on Ward to retract his considerably worse (IMHO) statements. And if you aren't out for firing him, I'm sure he appreciates your vote in the next election.
    Well, if you don't remember it, I'm sure it never happened. There were many people on the left who denounced Churchill's comments, and plenty who said he should retract them. And, FYI, I never said Cornyn shouldn't be fired for his comments. I said he shouldn't be fined, as in paying criminal penalties. I do think he should be fired, and I will be voting against him in the next election.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:21:57 AM EST
    In all seriousness, what is so bad about what he said? "I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country" Fair enough- The "I don't know" statement tells he is thinking out loud. I guess we should ban that from puiblic discourse. " Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that's been on the news ...." Certainly true. "...and I wonder whether there may be some connection" Again, this relates back to him thinking out loud. "...between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public," Judges ARE percieved that way, and for the most part are unaccountable except to higher courts. It is a fair argument that the Judiciary is usurping power from the Legislative and Executive branches. "... that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in - engage in violence." Okay, this would be a slam to the Christian right if it were true, wouldn't it? Mindless Right wingers taking matters into their own hands? He isn't making excuses, merely raising a question as to a possible "Cause and Effect" (which I agree is erroneous). Again, this relates back to him thinking out loud. Legitimate discourse, and I am missing why this is such a big deal.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:36:07 AM EST
    Gerry, At a certain level, I can see your free speech points. However, this "anger" at judges is being whipped up by the right wing for their own purposes at this time. It's not some spontaneous thing...the Cornyns and DeLays are leading the way and using this type of "wondering out loud" as threats. Plus, no Senator ever "wonders out loud" on the Senate floor....or anywhere else probably!

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#56)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:00:58 AM EST
    Cornyn's intent was to suggest a cause and effect and thereby explain away the violence by suggesting they brought it upon themselves. This was not Cornyn's first verbal assult on the judicary.
    As a vehement opponent of gay marriage, Cornyn has a history of attacking the judiciary. In a CNN interview last year, Cornyn expressed his concern over "a handful of activist judges who are radically redefining our society's most famous institution." Days later, at a news conference with fellow radical conservatives, Cornyn stepped up the rhetoric: "I believe we've done our job by highlighting the threat to the rights of the American people by activist judges." During the committee hearings on one of President Bush's judicial nominees, Cornyn exposed that the real purpose behind the constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage was to circumvent the judiciary: "[T]he only way that the people of this country can respond when a handful of judges rewrite the Constitution…is through a constitutional amendment process."
    This is an organized attack coming primarily from the christian right who don't like some of the current law. Fora summary see this

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:11:37 PM EST
    Gerry Owen, you obviously don't live in Colorado. Churchill has had his life threatened, he is constantly being attacked in the media, and his job is on the line. The comments he made were in an essay, not widely published, that he wrote 3 years ago.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:27:58 PM EST
    Silo- There IS a lot of angst over the Judiciary taking more and more authority and power. Judges more and more are ruling on things that shoould be left in the realm of the Legislative and Executive branches, and there is no recourse outside of other judges. The simple fact that the confirmation process so revolves around the candidates' political views reflects this. Judges do make bad decisions, they are only human (and not necessarily the best and brightest ones at that). However, the only recourse is...another judge.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:29:02 PM EST
    Michelle- Ward Churchill has made his share of threats in his career as well. He should be a big boy and take it.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:35:32 PM EST
    I think that we have a real Constitutional crisis in this country when Judges are being openly threatened. Delay's threats to the judge could result in some nut job putting a slug in the old boy. It has happened with the Abortion debate and it will happen here if care is not taken. If you need a laugh go to http://www.farmer-ted.com and follow the contents page to "Dick of the Week" If it doesn't make you laugh I'll take out my feeding tube.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 02:17:55 PM EST
    IS a lot of angst over the Judiciary taking more and more authority and power. Judges more and more are ruling on things that shoould be left in the realm of the Legislative and Executive branches, and there is no recourse outside of other judges.
    This is the essence of the the right wing talking points. The fact is they have been unable to change the law, so now they attack the Legal system. Bush and his band of merry fascists want morepower in the executive branch despite the fact they have more than ever before. Until the recent SS mess, the congress has been lapdogs signing onto what ever Bush wants. Don't like the law change it, don't threaten judges. Of course there are extra motives at work here. Bush wants to undercut the apparent authority of the legal system so there will not be such a big outcry when he ignores their rulings (Gitmo). In fact Bush has attacked the validity of every mechanism or institution that might in some way but a check on his actions. These include: treaties, laws, the ICC, the UN, etc

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#62)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:16:52 PM EST
    Lefties maybe shouldn't talk about using courts to get stuff done they can't get passed in the legislature. Recourse, for society, doesn't mean an appeal. Recourse, to use the case of Judge Rechlin, means a fine, a public reprimand, demotion to small claims court, a month's suspension without pay, de-benching. All that happened is she is still in a position to do the same thing again whenever she feels like it. Recourse for her next unfortunate victim means living long enough and being able to afford enough appeals to find a judge who will overturn Rechlin's next mindfart. That sort of thing does not cheer the ordinary citizen. She killed a guy by being uncaring, disorganized, stupid, lazy. A school crossing guard couldn't get away with that. Maybe that should be the standard. If a similar screw up would get a school crossing guard fired, ditto the judge. Not a bad idea if I have to say so myself. The Family Independence Agency issue is frequently in Michigan news. I've talked to reporters and a couple of legislators. I still haven't heard what snarky implication was supposed to be implied by Silo's sneer that I seemed to be familiar with the thing. Go ahead, Silo. If you want to put tobacco execs in jail due to the results of smoking, that might extend to drug dealers, a step lefties wouldn't want to take. Corporate malfeasance? How much money did the Oil for Food scam piss away to various UN cronies. How much more than the Enron debacle? As Mark Steyn said, UN peacekeepers are pedophilic sex tourists with guns. On East Timor, even the livestock isn't safe. Two Jordanians were evacuated with injuries to their wedding tackle after an attempted relationship with goats. And another group of Jordanians drew their weapons on some Aussies because they thought the Aussies ratted them out for child rape. Who went to jail for Srebrenica? Rwanda? Oh, right. He got promoted. Maybe somebody who insists on inflicting UN peacekeepers on a defenseless population ought to go to jail. The reasonably logical extension of some lefty talking points could be embarrassing.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:32:47 PM EST
    that might extend to drug dealers
    they are jailed, vigorously and enthusiastically i might add. The reasonably logical extension of some wingnut talking points could be, well there is no logical extension, just nonsense, that's embarrassing.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#64)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:38:49 PM EST
    Outswhatsit. Yeah, I know. But lefties are supposed to be AGAINST jailing drug dealers. If the point is to jail people for selling stuff that kills their customers, the tobacco execs will be right in their with the dope dealers. The point is.....that's a contradiction with lefty principles--snort--which says put white collar guys in jail on account of they have white collars and who knows what they might do if given half a chance and besides some of them sell stuff that kills people while we ought not jail drug dealers because some of the stuff they sell kills people. See? Ach. Get back to me when you run out of whatever it is. About twelve hours later.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#65)
    by soccerdad on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:53:58 PM EST
    RA is in top form with irony today
    Lefties maybe shouldn't talk about using courts to get stuff done they can't get passed in the legislature.
    Of course its the right who is attacking judges, becuase in fact they can't get their laws passed.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 04:21:24 PM EST
    The judicary issue is serious, and a concern to many. Yeah, until the courts are packed with Conservatives -- at which point "judicial activism" will become "constitutionally ordained discretion" rather than the "affront" or "threat" that it currently is. At least in the mind of Conservatives and PPJ, the Conservative who incessantly claims not to be one.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 04:42:45 PM EST
    The histrionic reactions to the Senator's comments here are just absurd. He clearly was not advocating the murder of "activist" judges. He was wondering whether there was a connection between the alleged frustration with such judges and the violence we have seen in courtrooms (the answer to his question is most likely "no" -- there has been no notable upsurge in violence against judges, and where there has been violence, there is no discernible connection to judicial activism). But since when does positing a question equate to endorsement of a position? If those are the same things, then clearly those who condemn the Senator must also condemn liberals who ask whether US foreign policy might have anything to do with terrorism against Americans. After all, if you ask that, then clearly you are "advocating" terrorism against Americans. Sheesh. And there really is a whole lot of hypocricy in the selective outrage here. As someone else pointed out, there seem to be plenty of liberal zealots who want to defend the likes of Ward Churchill and even that moronic Columbia University professor who said he hoped for a "thousand Mogadishus" for US troops in Iraq. Those two jackasses weren't asking questions about potential causal linkages. They were making outright hate statements. Now THAT was repugnant. But I guess they get a pass because of their left-wing politics.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#68)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 05:16:09 PM EST
    M's got it. By George she/he's got it.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#69)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 05:19:23 PM EST
    Tampa Student -yeah, until the courts are packed with Conservatives the courts are packed with conservatives, fed and supreme are almost all regan, bush appointees. schiva as an example, only one judge was appointed by clinton and he thought schiavo should have yet another day in court. rethugs command the congress, the executive and the judiciary, and they still claim they don't have enough power.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#70)
    by roy on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 06:48:58 PM EST
    Cornyn has clarified his statement.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 07:16:20 PM EST
    I'm glad Cornyn made that statement. The first one was very regrettable. He needs to take his own advice and tone it down, or modify his dosage. The way the American Talibanicans are in hysterics, they seem to forget that their ilk already dominate the judiciaries. They must be awaiting the return of Roland Freisler, their dream judge. And all this "wondering" and "thinking (sic) out loud"! It would be "understandable" if people would "wonder" if the Bush "culture of lies" may lead citizens to become so frustrated with the lack of accoutability of the junta, that it would "build up and build up and build up" to the extent where people would engage in violence against the regime. Just wondering.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#72)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 07:36:11 PM EST
    I don't wonder, Silo. Back in the Sixties, some of your type used to "wonder" the same thing, until one, at least, of them made the observation that Remington and Winchester made that impossible. Point was, he (or she, I forget) knew that, really, really, the people, who were armed, had not only no interest in lefty revo, they would take action against it and were equipped (the reference to Remington and Winchester) to act decisively. So, no, I don't wonder.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 07:40:41 PM EST
    This is beyond comical. Just last month, the left were jumpin' and jivin' all over this forum about how anyone who displayed even the slightest displeasure over the gasbag prof's comments were "anti-freedom-of-speech". Now anyone who is not "outraged" over this mild remark is a "repug", and a "rethug", blah, blah, blah... Why not just get it over with and have the word "hypocrite" tatooed onto your foreheads? btw, Jeff and Scar, most Republicans don't "think" Dems are soft...

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:24:41 PM EST
    It still turns the judiciary into a political group subject to the whims of whoever can contribute the most soft money.
    A number of states appear to do quite well with elected judges. I've heard that Florida is one of those states and that Judge Greer was elected as a Republican judge. On the other hand, the book I mentioned previously suggested a single 18 year term, in order to avoid the problems so many people worry about. A single term would, of course, mean no re-election issues. Not that I agree with all this, but y'all make too many assumptions, or lack imagination - the source of my faux shock.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:28:09 PM EST
    Wish I could edit previous posts. One of the arguments the book "Electing Justice" makes is that federal judicial appointments are already very much like elections and very much subject to special interests.

    Re: Sen. Cornyn Oversteps His Bounds (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 07:33:49 AM EST
    allen - Exactly. Which is why "blue slipping" was such a damnable practice. And why the filibuster is wrong. If you don't pass the leftist agenda election....