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One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Filibuster and Preserve Integrity of Judiciary

By Jeralyn, Section Judiciary
Posted on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 11:27:07 PM EST
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Press Release From Office of Senator Harry Reid, regarding the petition drive by Coalition for a Fair and Independent Judiciary:

One million Americans Wednesday petitioned their Senators to stand up against any attempt to circumvent our government’s checks and balances and silence debate in the U.S. Senate. The petitions against the proposed “nuclear option” were presented to Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid on the steps of the Supreme Court, and later delivered to targeted Senate offices on Capitol Hill.

“Today, over one million Americans have spoken with one voice against the arrogance of power in Washington,” said Reid. “They’ve told the Republican Party loud and clear to stop any attempt to abuse their power and silence Senate debate.”

Senate Republicans are trying to change the filibuster rules in the Senate and eliminate debate. By going “nuclear,” they will be able to remove the one check on President Bush’s power in Washington and turn the Senate into a rubber stamp for his judicial appointments and Supreme Court nominees.

“Our founding fathers built a system of checks and balances into our Constitution,” Reid continued. “This system has worked for over 200 years, but is now threatened by a handful of power hungry Republicans who will do whatever they want to get their way.”

The nuclear option is a transparent power ploy by the Bush Administration to pack our federal courts with ultra-conservative, extremist judges. As Reid reminds us:

While Republicans suggest they need the “nuclear option” to put judges on the bench, evidence to the contrary could not be clearer. President Bush has seen more of his judicial nominees approved than any other President in the past twenty-five years. Only ten of 214 nominations have been turned down.

“The ‘nuclear option’ is the result of Republican leaders arrogant with power,” said Reid. “If they can’t get everything they want, they try to break the rules. Based on the facts, it is clear that this attempt to strip away important checks and balances in our government is not about judges. It is about the desire for absolute power, and Senate Democrats are proud to stand with over 1 million Americans against this attempt to change the rules.”

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    One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Filibuster and Preserve Integrity of Judiciary | 52 comments (52 topical)
    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#1)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 05:14:21 AM EST
    So. The filibuster allows debate? Keeping it allows debate? Y'all know the sorry history of the filibuster in civil rights matters, including Sheets Byrd, as I recall. But now it's a part of checks and balances. I hope nobody, and by that I mean NOBODY, thinks for an instant that those pushing for the filibuster look honest. Don't even try to convince yourselves that people think you're honest. It would be one of the more egregious wastes of time and energy to try thinking that.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 05:53:21 AM EST
    And 299,000,000 didn't. I like the odds.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:39:41 AM EST
    If the Filibuster was being used to make sure issues were fully debated, I would agree with preserving it. But it isn't. It is being used to obstruct. It shouldn't take two years to get a vote on a Judge. Shut up and vote!

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:50:41 AM EST
    When Clinton's nominees weren't even brought up for a vote that was ok. But now a filibuster is an outrage. Freakin hypocrites.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:58:44 AM EST
    I hope nobody, and by that I mean NOBODY, thinks for an instant that those pushing for the filibuster look honest.
    You would be referring to the founding fathers as crooks, RA. Nobody just invented the filibuster - do you think that a Republican president, Senate and Congress are just a little MIFFED that they can't push their extremist agenda. 210 Judges approved. 54 Hard right wing judges the left finds intolerable aren't. You can't hijack the balance of power (I hope) just cause you're the bully on the block. I saw Harry Reid on TV last night. A truly great American. They should take away George Tenet's Medal of Freedom and give it to Harry Reid. In face... I think I'll call his office right now.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 07:06:08 AM EST
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The constant carping from the right on this blog is distracting and annoying. TalkLeft is becoming more and more like one of those old-time AOL bulletin boards or chat rooms where everyone just yells at each other. Who cares what I think? No one, of course. But this is a perfect example. Three comments extolling (sarcastically) the filibuster. One against. I don't think this is TalkLeft anymore. More and more sniping, sarcastic right wing comments. I can get that day in and day out in the MSM and the streets. After two years and voting you Koufax, as well as tipping many times, and recommending you to many people, I quit TL. Just sick of the constant noise from the right on this blog. Don't waste the bandwidth with "don't let the door hit you ...", etc. I couldn't care less.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 07:16:25 AM EST
    PPJ, you really do have a problem with numbers, don't you? There are only 267 million people in this country, so just where do you get the 299 million? I don't see anywhere near as many people coming out in support of going "nuclear". Have you really become that detached from reality that you just invent scenarios in your head and believe them to be true? Gerry and RA you are equally deluded, but that is ok. You both use GOP talking points and think that others will assume that these are your original thoughts. Unfortunately not everyone is a complete rube yet and can see you guys for what you are, just a couple of Scheeple. 10 out of 214 judges is not a bad deal. But for some reason the Republicans and their supporters on the Right feel that anything they want goes and damn anyone who disagrees. That is why 1 million people have decided to speak up and be counted. They are tired of the Right running rough shod over the people of this country. Where are all the supporters in the citizenry who are for going "nuclear" on the filibuster?

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 07:31:11 AM EST
    As noted previously, I wouldn't mind a real filibuster at all. The problem isn't really on the Democrat's side; they are simply using the leverage given to them by Bill Frist, who seems incapable of doing his job effectively. If Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy had to stand up and talk themselves to death to thwart a vote, that would be a filibuster, and it might even lead to something productive. As it is, we have nothing but lazy threats and lazy leaders unwilling to call the bet. Strangely enough, Byrd himself has said that there is no need for a vote on nominees at all, as the advice and consent clause in the Consitution doers not specify how that advice and consent should be delivered. I don't know if he's serious, or simply blowing smoke, but this is something else Frist should consider calling him on. Sadly, that day will never come.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 07:59:11 AM EST
    Sherm- Sorry, dude, I'm not on anyone's "Talking Points" mailing list, and I seriously doubt PPJ is either. No one thinks for me. Soccer- so can we flip that around? If it was wrong for the Republicans to do it in the 90's, than isn't it wrong for the Dems to do it now? Justpaul raises an interesting point- Does Advise and Consent really require a vote? These are judges- all that matters is their qualifications, not their political viewpoints. The fact that everyone is concerned about their political persuasions shows the judiciary is way to politicized already.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:12:34 AM EST
    Gerry, Just to clarify: I didn't raise the issue of whether a vote is required, Robert Byrd did, and he answered that question with an emphatic "no". Having looked at the Constitution in response to this statement, I am forced to agree with him that it nowhere states that the Senate must or even should hold a vote on nominees, only that the President shall appoint nominees with the advice and consent of the Senate. It has been suggested elsewhere that this advice and consent could be registered by having 51 Senators sign a letter in support of a nominee and then having that letter delivered to the President. I doubt that Byrd expects anyone to take him seriously on this (although he is often considered the Dean of the Senate due to his expertise on the issue of the rules thereof), especially given that Frist isn't even willing to force those threatening a filibuster to actually launch one, but it would be worth trying this approach just to see what happened. It's also interesting that Robert Byrd, the man most clearly associated with the threat to filibuster these nominees, is the man who says that no vote is required in the first place. I don't know if he's trying to lay the groundwork for Hillary in 2009 or just rubbing Frist's face in his own incompetence, or suffering from the early stages of dementia, but it makes for an interesting notion.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:50:49 AM EST
    The real dispute here is all about moving the goal post. When the Dems where in the Majority they could have also used the Nuclear Option, they didn't. This was based on an established principle of Bi-Partisenship. It has worked well for Both parties. The Repugs haven't learned how to be a majority party. I guess they fear they will have only two years to savor the power.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:57:10 AM EST
    mem For myself I kind of enjoy the trolls. To me they're like little magots to be squished under my liberal boot! Their only a problem if you let the little buggers get under your skin.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:01:59 AM EST
    mem - the same could be said for the posting tactics of those on the left here.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:04:56 AM EST
    Sherman In his figures PPJ was including all the fake voters for Bushbag in the last election!

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:11:50 AM EST
    ED - thanks for proving my point.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:12:52 AM EST
    Justpaul Watch what you wish for. Can you imagine all the endless C-span grand standing Filibusters. My goodness it would be worse them then stareing day after day at a Dead Pope.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:55:54 AM EST
    Ed, Are you kidding? It would be priceless. And it would be the first thing C-SPAN has shown in at least 5 years that was worth the cost of a cable hookup. I would love to watch it. You also have to remember that a filibuster only works as long as you can hold the floor. It might take 24 or 36 or even 48 hours, but eventually it would end and a vote would be held. We might lose a few Senators to exhaustion in the process, but that particular patch needs some healthy weeding out anyway. In regard to a real filibuster, I would have to borrow a line from W and say "Bring it on".

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:22:19 AM EST
    mfox - Repeat after me. The filibuster is not in the constitution. Sorry if facts get in the way, again. Ed B - Wrong, oh election math challenged breath. My figure was the approximate US population.... and you write... "To me they're like little magots to be squished under my liberal boot!" Let's see, now what well known political party was associated with boots. Hmmm... from Europe... from...Germany...gee, nice group of people you like to imagine yourself part of. Can you swagger with your riding crop held just so? Got an arm band??? Sherman - Okay 1 million did and 266 million didn't. Again, you seem to not catch on very quick. Shall I expand? We have a President who has been twice elected, the second time with higher numbers than the first. The number of republicans in the Senate has increased to 55. To a reasonable person, this would indicate that the voters want this President to act. Now, in his judical nominations, the Demos are threatening filibuster. That is not democracy at work, that is democracy stopped. Plus, the con stitution says that the Senate shall advise and consent. So let's bring'em forward, and let's debate, and let's have a vote. The Demos look silly in their claims.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:33:29 AM EST
    PPJ I was talking about an Approximate of bush stolen votes. Lets see I recall Bushbag wears Boots and so did Reagan and the marlboro guy and most folks in texas I guess you meant the are a lot like Nazis? Hmmm. Hey I can be cute too. Wach out or I'll call the Orkin Man! Just joshin you aka jim :)

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:40:50 AM EST
    I think I have a plan to settle this matter Lets agree to drop the filibuster when the repugs are in the minority this way everybody will know they are just being true to the Constitution and dropping the filibuster is not just another cheap power grab on the repugs part. Sounds fair to me. How about you PPJ

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:59:37 AM EST
    democracy stopped = Repubs not getting their way. The filabuster isa mechanism open to the Dems, don't like it get rid of it if you have the votes. The Repubs have used other techniques that have been discussed here to "further" democracy. Keeping votes open past deadlines so they can get votes they need, excluding Dems from conferences on bills, and even limiting the time most of their own members get to examine a bill before a vote. This is all done so the Prez can get his way. Personnaly I find it bad. Like PPJ said the Repubs have the majority, they will end up doing what they want. In the future don't come whining if the majority party changes and the same techniques are then used on the Repubs. I would prefer that both parties acted more responsibly but I don't expect that to happen. PPJ is for the tryanny of the majority.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:30:18 AM EST
    "democracy stopped = Repubs not getting their way" Actually, considering the President who nominated the Judges was popularly elected, and the majority of Senators who support those judges being appointed are popularly elected, and the Minority is using a debate rule to prevent them being voted on (and voting is the essence of democracy), than I would say your comment is a fair assessment.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 12:47:05 PM EST
    PPJ, Gerry, What percentage of the total number of judges nominated are being challenged again? What's that?
    These are judges- all that matters is their qualifications, not their political viewpoints.
    Don't they take some kind of oath to uphold the constitution? If their political viewpoint is that the constitution is immoral or they have ruled in ways that challenge precedent (ahem, "judicial activism") then hell no. The filibuster is the last resort of the minority party to use in their commitment to represent all the people. If you all are going to trash the filibuster, this is one of the most odious and partisan power grabs in modern American history. Remember - a fish rots from the head down.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:20:37 PM EST
    Look at PPJ and Gerry, teaming up to have one half of a brain. PPJ, I didn't know that 266 million people actually voted in the last election. Silly me I thought it was over 100 million. I must have been sleeping when children, who are in that 266 mill, got the right to cast a vote in a Presidential election. Gerry, your reading comprehension doesn't really come up to snuff, now does it. I didn't say anything about PPJ using talking points, God knows he needs something to make himself sound almost coherent, I was refering to you and the other Brownie troll posting here today. And I seriously doubt you think for yourself, you are a Repuglican. So let's get down to it. I would like any of you Repug's to tell me, and not just use rhetoric but facts, why since the filibuster is not "enshrined" in the Constitution has it been allowed to exist for the last 200 years or so? It could have been done away with along time ago but neither party saw fit to change or abolish it. So why now? Afraid that Repug policies won't sit well with the average American so they have to make sure that no one challenges there hold on power? I mean can any of you right leaning individuals tell me using facts just why the filibuster should be changed at this point in time? Please no stupid comments. If your position is solid and valid I am sure posters here would love to read just what you really think.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:03:33 PM EST
    President Bush has seen more of his judicial nominees approved than any other President in the past twenty-five years. Only ten of 214 nominations have been turned down.


    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:04:02 PM EST
    President Bush has seen more of his judicial nominees approved than any other President in the past twenty-five years. Only ten of 214 nominations have been turned down.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:04:35 PM EST
    President Bush has seen more of his judicial nominees approved than any other President in the past twenty-five years. Only ten of 214 nominations have been turned down.


    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    what?

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:12:26 PM EST
    Ed B - Sorry guy, but you are the one saying "they're like little magots to be squished under my liberal boot!" So give up the Reagan, Bush, etc., bit. It doesn't fly. Aint it just terrible when your words come back to haunt you? As for waiting until the Repubs are in the minority... No. First of all, the Demos have exactly zero creditability on such things, and secondly, why wait? The Repubs won. The Demos lost. Such is democracy. mfox - I remind you of your commitment to prevent abuse. I wait your censure of Ed B for his 9:57AM comment (above): "To me they're like little magots to be squished under my liberal boot!" And who cares about percentages? Good grief. The Senate is supposed to advise and consent, not work out math formulas. They can debate their quals, and then vote. A filibuster prevents that. Duhhh. And your logic is skewed, as usual. A minority party cannot represent all the people, because if they did, they wouldn't be a minority party! Where do you get these things? SD - PPJ is for the constitution to be followed by everyone. Radical Left Wing Demos included. Sherman - Silly you is right. The comment was about population, not votes. I see that along with your inability to quickly grasp complex issues that are defined simply, your reading ability is questionable. Actually, I don't think it has been "allowed." It may/may not have been part of the rules of the Senate, but even there it is come and gone, especially on the side-issue of cloture. But afraid of what? You keep on trying to ignore something. Filbusters STOP debate. So it must be Demos who are concerned about what people think and want. Tell me, why do you and Demos hate democracy?

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:01:40 PM EST
    PPJ, Allowed is a good way of saying something happened which no one stopped from happening. The last time the filibuster was used I don't remember anybody not allowing it to happen, correct? So yes "allow" is a very good choice of words. You still don't offer up any good explanations as to why a parlimentary procedure like the filibuster should be changed or abolished. Sure you spout alot of crap and seem to hang on small statements (you know, the whole crushing of maggots thing) and steer away from the fact that you are not really making a whole lot of sense. I asked, I thought rather respectfully considering the folks I am conversing with, as to some good justifications for going "nuclear" on the filibuster. You obviously don't have any to offer. I really think you are a hypocrite when it comes to democracy. You try to justify the tyranny of the majority and at the same time try to lecture everyone on this site as to how to correctly interpret the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers for one second thought your idea of "whatever the majority wants, goes" since they made sure to put alot of checks and balances into our governmental system. I charge you with being a traitor and a treasonous pig in regards to upholding the constitution. And no PPJ, I understand your statements about population size, which you have consistently gotten wrong, it just makes no sense. Since for most petitions to be of any worth they need registered voters to sign them. A good portion of the population is either too young or doesn't care to register to vote, so getting 1 million registered voters to sign any petition is a pretty mean feat. Now, where are all the others who voted to put Shrub into power? Why haven't you goons gotten another petition going saying just how badly we need the filibuster done away with? Could it be because you wouldn't be able to match the numbers of folks on the other side of this issue? I think so. So answer this PPJ, since 266 million of the citizens of the USA agree with everything the Preznit does then why isn't there a majority of people who want to sign a petition saying "Nuke the Filibuster"? Because not everyone, including traditional Republicans, believe it is a smart move. PPJ, the posterchild of how public education can fail miserably.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#31)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:06:30 PM EST
    And your logic is skewed, as usual. A minority party cannot represent all the people, because if they did, they wouldn't be a minority party!
    Ironically, at least when it comes to the Senate, the minority party actually *does* represent more people than the majority party due to the 2 senators per state rule.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:13:13 PM EST
    Tell me, why do you and Demos hate democracy?
    ?did the pot just call me black?

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:29:27 PM EST
    SD - PPJ is for the constitution to be followed by everyone. Radical Left Wing Demos included.
    First of all, I don't believe this BS for a second. The proof is in your never ending supply of hypocritical posts. Second, I didn't think the Constitution spelled out the "rules" of how things were done on a day to day basis. Thirdly, I dont remember you being critical of the Repubs when they violate the rules e.g. extending the voting time. The rule exists, you don't like the rule change it. Can't get the votes to change it, tough.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    Hypocritical Liberal statement of the day
    The rule exists, you don't like the rule change it. Can't get the votes to change it, tough.
    What, you mean the RULE where the president nominates judicial appointments and then the Senate VOTES to confirm or deny? Show me where in the Constitution it reads that the minority must be allowed a fillibuster. Show me.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 04:31:47 PM EST
    Neocon with a name like that thought you would bring a better, more interesting approach to trolling. all your comrades here have worn that one out. As if you would want anything close to a "literalist" interpretation of the constitution. your a pup compared to the resident wingnuts here, not to worry though, stick around and they'll have you up to speed on their talking point tactics in no time. new conservative, lol, sounds like the sos!

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#36)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 05:50:10 PM EST
    Jim, Let's see, now what well known political party was associated with boots. Hmmm... from Europe... from...Germany...gee, nice group of people you like to imagine yourself part of. Can you swagger with your riding crop held just so? Got an arm band??? Considering how much you conservative commenters hate the nazi label, you sure have no problem tossing it around for your own purposes. Justpaul, I got your last entry on the Gore thread.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:22:04 PM EST
    out - I notice you didn't show necon where the filibuster is in the constitution. Neocon may be a pup, but he did ask the right question. SD - Hmmm, first, the Senate sets its own rules. From a practical viewpoint, any organization has to have a way to shut off debate at some point and force a vote, or nothing would ever get done. So the Senate is free to establish what the rules are for cloture. Your problem is you don't want the judges in question to be debated and voted on. That isn't democracy in action. That's tyranical response. As for the "extension of voting time," I confess to not know what you are referring to. Do you have any details, or just charges? nolo - As you keep forgetting, we are not a pure democracy, but rather a constitutional republic. I know it is confusing, but there are some differences. Sherman - I swear the Left has absolutely no sense of irony. So I will explain this just one last time. I thought it ironic for the post to triumph that 1,000,000 people have signed a petition, when the population is somewhere around 300,000,000. From that you and Ed B launched into some vague comment string about voters in the last election, etc. BTW - No one has mentioned that all, none or some of the 1,000,000 may not be regsitered voters. But who cares? Think spatially. So 1,000,000 signed. Somewhere between 266,000,000 to 300,000,000 have not signed. That means that the 1,000,000 is statistically insignificant. As for "tryanny of the majority," that is nonsense. We have had an election. The Demos lost. Now they are trying to claim that the winners are supposed to rule in some sort of magical "bi-partisan" way. Is that dumb, or what? This is not a parlimentary system. Bush did not have to form a collation government. In our form of government, the minority party may do all sorts of things, make points, comments, add amendents, debate, etc. But they don't get to call the tune. From TIME magazine. "The history of the filibuster The word "filibuster" comes from the Dutch word meaning "pirate." Members of the U.S. Senate have pirated debate for as long as the institution has existed. Initially, House members were permitted to filibuster as well, but their growing numbers soon made the practice inadvisable. In the Senate, unlimited debate was permitted until 1917, when President Woodrow Wilson suggested the Senate adopt a new rule: a two-thirds vote (67 members) would close down ("cloture") a filibuster. In 1975, the required vote count was reduced to three-fifths (or 60 members)." I am not 100% sure, but I believe the Demos were the Senate majority in 1975.... "Mar. 17, 1975 (TIME Archive.)It was one of the most intricate struggles in the history of the Senate's many battles over the filibuster. Finally, the urgencies of practical politics prevailed. The liberal Senate majority, determined not to be blocked by endless argument over legislation in a period of economic crisis, last week approved a compromise that achieved the first new limitation on debate since 1959. A filibuster will be choked off if 60 Senators (three-fifths of the total membership) vote to do so. That is seven less than the number (two-thirds) that had been required under the Senate's celebrated Rule 22,..." So you may quit acting as if changing the rules is some unheard of thing. In fact, it appears that, in the past, it has been praticed particularelly well by Democrats. As for your, and Ed B's typical moonbat comments, "you goons," "maggots," etc., what can I say? Use'em if you got'em.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:22:55 PM EST
    "When the Dems where in the Majority they could have also used the Nuclear Option, they didn't." Back then, Ed, they called it "borking". Rather ridiculous for you to presume to dress down the opposition for not being bipartisan enough for you and then call them "repugs"...

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:30:21 PM EST
    Che - Now you are well aware that I am a social liberal. I am not a left winger. The two are distinctly different in numerous ways. BTW - I would, if a Senator, probably vote against some of the nominees, and if they are confirmed, may disagree with their rulings. But. It is time for us to vote on these things and move on. We are dying over issues like health care, education, gay rights, etc. We should not be afraid to debate these issues. Filibusters make the Demos look weak and afraid. People do understand that a filibuster stops debate, and votes. So let's vote. If we lose, let's get up and try again. But for God's sake, let us quit looking like a bunch of looney losers who just want to throw temper tantrums. That will persuade no one.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:37:42 PM EST
    God what BS

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:45:54 PM EST
    SD - Can't refute it, eh? Completely out of ideas. I knew it.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:47:22 PM EST
    As for "tryanny of the majority," that is nonsense. We have had an election. The Demos lost. Now they are trying to claim that the winners are supposed to rule in some sort of magical "bi-partisan" way.
    You must have taken your stupid pills today. The history of the US has been that many, not all, presidents have tried bi-partisanship. Sometimes its out of necessity because one party held the white house the other the congress. This president wants what he wants period,without the usual duiscussion and horse trading. Fine he has the votes he can do it. The fact remains that he has gotten a very large percentage of his nominees through. But now becausehe cant gethis bottom of the barrel extremist through he's throwing a snit as if the might king can't get his way. Changes the rule if you got the vote, but when things swing back the other way, it will be the Repubs sitting in the corner claiming democracy isn't being served because they can't filabuster.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:52:32 PM EST
    Filibusters against nominees are constitutional. Some Republican senators have claimed that filibusters of nominees are unconstitutional because they prevent the Senate from fulfilling its obligations to advise and consent. In fact, and quite remarkably, the Constitution does not specify that a majority of any sort is required for confirmation, or even for passing laws. The Framers most likely had such a requirement in mind, but the Constitution does not address it. No reading of the Constitution can support the idea that filibusters are unconstitutional.
    LINK

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:58:48 PM EST
    From the intro on the web page
    In this essay Mill also warns of a second danger to liberty, which democracies are prone to, namely, the tyranny of the majority. In a representative democracy, if you can control the majority (and get them to vote for, and elect, your candidates) then you can control everyone (because your candidates, once "democratically elected", will pass whatever laws are needed for this, as was done by Hitler's agents in the 1930s in Nazi Germany
    From the John Stuart Mills Essay on Liberty (same link)
    Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant — society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.
    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:11:10 PM EST
    I am with mem, I enjoy the talk left entries but whenever I check out the comments I am disappointed with the aggressive, abusive and unhelpful one-up-man-ship. More time is spent ridiculing each other than making any points or sharing any thoughtful comments.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:13:39 PM EST
    Sherman- "Teaming up to get half a brain" is pretty lame- name calling and personal attacks only give the impression you are a bit to over emotional to carry on a real debate. Also, trying to demean the intellect of the those you disagree with only raises the question you are trying to compensate for your own shortcomings. mfox- "Don't they take some kind of oath to uphold the constitution?" Yes. Not that anyone reaaly holds them to it, regardless of the viewpoint. "If their political viewpoint is that the constitution is immoral" By whose standard? We are a democracy of MANY view points, why shouldn't judges reflect some of them? This also gets back to my contention that the Judiciary is too political and too involved in things that should be left to the legislative branch, but that's another post. "... or they have ruled in ways that challenge precedent (ahem, "judicial activism") then hell no." Agreed, to a point. I have a real problem with the concept that if the Judiciary makes a mistake, there is no recourse though. I do not think anyone right left or from Mars considers the courts infallible. "The filibuster is the last resort of the minority party to use in their commitment to represent all the people." True- I haven't made it very plain, but I really am leary about eliminating it entirely- I just think in "Advise and Consent" matters it is frankly crybaby tactics. That is why I'm interested in justpaul and Sen Byrd's proposal that they don't need a vote! "If you all are going to trash the filibuster, this is one of the most odious and partisan power grabs in modern American history." That it could be- which is why I wish they would Shut up and vote. The right will always have Clinton and Carter appointees to complain about, and the Left has Reagan, Bush and Bush appointees to complain about. "Remember - a fish rots from the head down." True again- but what is rotting? A reactionary Legislature or an over imperious Judiciary? Or Both? You make good points, professor- I hope I make you think as hard as you do me!

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:14:37 PM EST
    SD - Stupid as stupid quotes. Bush doesn't have to be bi-partisian. He has the votes. And I haven't said filbusters are un-constitutional. What I point out is that the right to do so is not in the constitution. Two totally different things, but then you are trying to change the focus with misdirection. And when I read in your link such deep comments as, "They’re wrong. Democrats, pointing out that more than 100 of Bush’s nominees have been confirmed, say it is improper to limit debate in the Senate. But it’s been done before." I am just naturally inclined to pursue more information from a source with such obvious depth.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#48)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:01:23 PM EST
    Jim, "And 299,000,000 didn't. I like the odds." Man. And this is from a non-Republican non-conservative? God help us.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 03:25:13 AM EST
    PPJ as usual avoid the real points.

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 08:05:04 AM EST
    PPJ, you haven't convinced anyone of anything in the hundreds of posts I've seen you make. You simply hijack (or is Pirate a better description??)any reasonable discussion. The same may be said about me, but at least I'm home among fellow left-leaners. PPJ - Inventor of the Blogosphere Filibuster! Can I get 60 votes to outlaw such activist behavior?? :)

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 09:12:26 AM EST
    your right, there are no rules in the Constitution that even address the filibuster. would you like a detailed list of policies/practices/precedents/rules/norms/mores etc., which are and have been available to (and utilized by) both parties that are not listed in the constitution? isn't the current reason the judges have not gotten the vote is due to a precedent/practice long accepted in the senate? why the threat of the "nuclear option"? maybe the air up there were you reside is to thin!

    Re: One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Fi (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:07:29 AM EST
    It is increasingly apparant that the Republicans want to have total control over everything. Now, they want to take away the last possibility for anyone to oppose their legislative acts. The vast majority of Bush's judicial nominees have been confirmed. Only a handful of them are being filibustered against. Certain Republicans are acting like spoiled cry-babies because some Democrats are standing in the way of them having their own way. When I was a little girl I tried acting like a spoiled cry-baby when I wasn't getting my own way. My mother made me stand in the corner whenever I acted that way. Perhaps certain Republicans should go stand in the corner for a while.

    One Million Americans Sign Petition to Keep Filibuster and Preserve Integrity of Judiciary | 52 comments (52 topical)