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New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for Saddam

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 09:42:44 AM EST
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I bet the U.S. didn't expect this when it planned the Iraq elections:

Iraq's new president, Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani said that he opposed the idea of oused dictator Saddam Hussein being sentenced to death... "I am among the lawyers who signed an international petition against the death penalty in the world and it would be a problem for me if Iraqi courts issued death sentences," he told the Asharq Al Awsat newspaper.

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    New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for Saddam | 72 comments (72 topical)
    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#1)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 09:59:30 AM EST
    And with a name like Talibani, who'd have expected him to hate Freedom?

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:07:30 AM EST
    Talabani also said that he wants the US out in two years.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:16:36 AM EST
    His call, but this big time stupid. As long as Saddam is alive, he will be rally point for Baath terrorists. And they won't hesitate to put Talabani to death, either with,or without, a trial.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:23:16 AM EST
    Admire his courage - maybe this will also take the wind out of Sunni insurgency. I would get Saddam out of the country though - no chance of a break-out

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:25:44 AM EST
    Time for another election!

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    I'll be surprised if that flies. The Iraqi assembly has a different take on this matter, as does the laws Saddam will be tried under. I admire Talabani's principles, all the same.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:48:39 AM EST
    Sorry Fleetguy, PPJ has the right call on this one. As long as Saddam is alive he is lightning rod for Iraqi Baathists and fringe Arab nationalists.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:00:07 AM EST
    May be correct I grant - but is it right. People willing to risk all on principle is a good thing

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:14:02 AM EST
    Fleetguy - Stupidity is bad, no mnatter the intentions, and this guy is proposing to do something stupid. You got the snake. Now kill it.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:19:37 AM EST
    I can see how one can reason that Saddam still has influence over the rebels being that his armed forces fought for all of 13 hours on his behalf. I would not want to forget how all the rebel forces are demanding his release. Execution would bring martrydom and hero worship, the public humiliation of being imprisoned by his own people for the rest of his life is far more powerful. Good for Talabani and good for the Iraqis.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:20:55 AM EST
    How 'bout keep him alive, but every Iraqi girl gets to visit him in prison, look him in the eyes, and kick him in the shin on her 13th birthday?

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:23:42 AM EST
    shin?

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:27:09 AM EST
    The other side of the coin is if it is perceived that Saddam got railroaded by the predominately Shia government and hung out of vengence not justice, then the Sunnis and bathist in particular will have one more thing to get very angry about and he will become somewhat of a martyr. Its an old problem, the proper resolution of which should be accomplished with a clear vision of the issues on the ground. From a political perspective only, one could argue that neither choice is appealing but you should chose the one that will cause the least political instability. There are bigger issues in Iraq than what happens to Saddam. Killing one snake to make more snakes angrier may not be the smart decision at this time. One of the overriding issues in Iraq is the Sunnis feeling they will not be treated fairly by tghe government. talibani's gesture speaks to that in a real way that might have some political effect, despite denying the blood thirsty right of its spectacle.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:39:44 AM EST
    Thank you, soccerdad. Lord do I get sick of the reflixive post from the wingnuts. Think begore you type, Jim. Not hard.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:47:36 AM EST
    So what is he going to do about saddam? most of what this guy is talking about is bull, we all know what will happen soon in iraq.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 11:59:13 AM EST
    I really think you are overblowing possible Sunni reaction to Saddam's possible execution. Even the Sunnis who benefited from his reign harbor no illusions as to how evil he was. For thwm it is a simple cost vs benefit analysis (since many in the region consider ALL the various regime leaders necessary evils). Sure, some way out extremists may try to tag him as a martyr, but it will be a tough sell, and damn near impossible to make the closer you get to Iraq.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:07:05 PM EST
    et al - If you leave him alive, he will remain, one way or another, a person to be used by the terrorists, and the Baath party. Dead, he may be a martyr, but he will fade. You can also expect that, if alive, hotsages to be taken, etc., for exchange for his release. You got the snake. Kill it. And don't worry about the other snakes. They're going to attack you no matter what you do.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    Tell me, how much support and influence does Milosevic have over the terrorists/insurgents in the Slavic region? Real life example of a leader that has not been executed that has faded into obscurity during his trial let alone his incarceration. The support for the death penalty for suppressing rebellion is a tired one and not validated by recent data.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:40:28 PM EST
    The world is littered with ex dictators.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:46:54 PM EST
    come on...we all know Saddam is going to slip on a bar of soap or something and will never be brought to trial...

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:47:07 PM EST
    Jim, Enough with the rootin tootin rattle-snake-catchin metaphors. The world cannot be reduced to a series of tough-sounding epigrams which do nothing to enlighten and simply make the speaker sound absurd. Witness the ridiculous "Bin Laden: Wanted Dead or Alive" if you don't believe me).

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 12:48:58 PM EST
    And besides, Big Tex already owns the rights to all cowboy lingo on this blog. Get your own alter-ego to hide behind.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Send him to the Hague. No death penalty and no more Saddam in Iraq. And no media circus trial with potential for internecine bloodshed.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:20:28 PM EST
    Gerry what you say is basically true but what it misses is the message that Saddam being railroaded and hung sends to the minority Sunnis. The message, which is being advocated by many Shias, is punish the Sunnis because of past problems and keep ethnic tensions alive and strong. Talabani is trying to defuse that. He's trying to send a political message that the new government will be fair and not rooted in ethnic fights. the treatment of Saddam in this context has political overtones independent of his present or past worth to any group.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:23:02 PM EST
    PPJ's rhetoric is very similar to that of our beloved Sec. of Defense which has served us so well in Iraq. to paraphrase "Consequences, we don't care about any stinkin consequences"

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:31:24 PM EST
    jim, your argument, if you haven't figured it out by now, can just as readily be used to keep him in prison. wish we all had crystal balls to know with the certainty you do. mine are only brass. ahem.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:38:14 PM EST
    Soccer- I agree with your assessment of Talabani, and I think his overall go is a worthy one- Shia animosity and resentment toward the Sunnis while understandable is extremely dangerous. However, I think the proposition that Saddam is being railroaded would be a tough sell over there. Regardless of anyone's views on the Death Penalty, if Saddam escapes the axe it will register as a sign of weakness in that culture. Talabani will have to cave on this, lets hope the shia blood thirst can be quenched and Talabani can get some concessions for the Sunnis when everything is said and done.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 01:54:23 PM EST
    One of the goals of the trial will be to focus Shia anger and resentment onSaddam and his inner circle- execution to mark the end of an era, Iraq emerges from the dark age of tyranny, an so on and so forth. Not a difficult sell.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:00:39 PM EST
    Seems to me that according to all the press reports and pentagon briefings they have "moved on" fairly well sans an execution of Saddam. First the argument was "he is fueling the insurgency fire" which of course has no legs as there are no insurgents referencing him. Now it is "to move on" which of course this administration declares they are doing at an unbelievable pace. To satisfy a "blood thirst" is truly an american ideal, not an Iraqi ideal why don't we allow them their right as a nation to decide his fate.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:02:36 PM EST
    The man committed genocide. Political, even 'stability' concerns (ala Jim's latest pooch on a diamond leash sniffery) have NOTHING to do with it. I oppose the death penalty for ordinary murder. But genocide is nothing like that. It is one of the greatest evils we will ever confront on the earth, the intentional destruction of culture and its members. The only reason why he hasn't gone on trial already is that the evidence includes TONS of embarassing US contracts for things like anthrax. Talabani has about two, three months, tops. 85% of the country is Arab, and they want to have a Kurd leader with ties to Bush? And not just any Kurd, but Uncle Jalal, reportedly the most prominent Kurd in the nation? The only reason why he is in power is because when he fails it will inch the country that much further toward the civil war that is USPNAC's actual purpose.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:08:25 PM EST
    Sure, only problem is that the 300,000 bodies the US cited in Mass Graves have never been found, in fact only 15000 approximately have been found which are all attributed to the uprisings in the attempt to overthrow him. Where are those bodies? Where are the 300,000? Should be easy to find, no? Or are they with the WMD? He was a tyrant and a POS, but genocide has not been proven, in fact at this point the charge is more than suspect.....

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:27:37 PM EST
    Is any of that the point? Talibani has fought the death penalty all his life - he should sacrifice his principle now? Gotta love him for not being a moral relativist. The political process will do what it does and in the big picture Saddam will die (when is a question); but can't you applaude him for not reading the latest polls to see what he should believe in

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#34)
    by roy on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:43:18 PM EST
    I just hope the official decision is made, and the trial is carried out, without too much apparent meddling by the U.S. Letting the Iraqi people and new government take charge of dealing with their past will set a good precedent for the future. That will probably only happen if Bush is extra sneaky while meddling and doesn't get caught, but that's almost as good as actual trust.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:47:06 PM EST
    Fleetguy- I'd be a bit careful about making claims that "Talibani has fought the death penalty all his life", unless you equate running from it fighting it. This "kinder softer gentler" Talabani is a bit of a surprise to me- although Barzani was always the more hard nosed of the two.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    Actually, realized I overreached when I re-read the story after I posted - he only signed an international letter forswearing the death penalty which he is standing behind.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:36:32 PM EST
    How is the hard-core secularist Saddam going to be a rallying point for fundimentalist islamo-facists? I don't get that.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:37:55 PM EST
    You know, Saddam has a great deal of information, that, on a world scale, could be used to keep imperial US at bay (Where Saddam got the bio-warfare weapons he is alleged to have used). I certainly would not want to lose control of that information, either by killing the source or releasing Saddam to a world court. I see potential blackmail within blackmail.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:53:41 PM EST
    "how much support and influence does Milosevic have over the terrorists/insurgents in the Slavic region?" In an interesting juxtaposition, for the most part the "terrorists/insurgents" in that situation were opposed to Milosevic and supported by us. Having split Kosovo off, the internicine conflict risk has been reduced, at least for as long as we are willing to keep the combatants corraled in their respective corners.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:58:15 PM EST
    pacified Excellent point - kinda goes with pre-war Hussein support for Bin Laden. Why would the politically astute Saddam give any serious support for folks who would get around to his muslims someday

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 04:00:14 PM EST
    "Posted by Jlvngstn: "Sure, only problem is that the 300,000 bodies the US cited in Mass Graves have never been found...He was a tyrant and a POS, but genocide has not been proven," We have 16 TONS of his gov't documents in our Nat'l Archive, J. Included is shoot-to-kill orders, list of depopulated villages, lists of disappeared people, etc. The funny thing is, this cat named 'Talibani' (as if that could be a name...we looked, we couldn't find any evidence of that name) said back in 1988 on a trip to the US that Hussein had destroyed more than 1,000 villages in the previous year (the Anfal). Indeed, Hallabja alone would qualify as genocide. But that was just one of an estimated FORTY attacks on Kurdish civilian populations with chemical weapons. That's a lot more than tyranny, whether or not the caches of bodies are ever found. The difficulty in proving genocide is a persistent, and will be a persistent problem. But we have the goods on Hussein, and the only thing missing is a legal US gov't to put the nails in his coffin. Bush is a liar and a traitor, and couldn't care less about Hussein's crimes. Indeed, he is in competition to out Hussein him in his dictatorship over the ME. Nuking Tehran after the next terrorist attack (when Bush's numbers fall into the teens and he has to do something) will beat Saddam but good.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 04:05:21 PM EST
    Paul in LA: The Kurds and Shiites in Iraq know better than anything the brutality of Hussein. Talibani knows; and yet he sticks to his promise to foreswear capital punishment (I doubt if he realized when he made it who he would have to oppose using it on). Gotta love it.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 04:46:44 PM EST
    I don't know where I stand on this one. On one hand Mr.Hussein Al-Tikriti justly deserve to dance at the end of a Rope. Tojo did so for the very same crimes. On the other, his death will undoubtedly make a martyr outta him. He certainly cannot be cremated once dead (it wouldn't be a Muslim burial otherwise), thus would leave shrine for his followers to adorate. Maybe (and I'm just guessing), the new Iraki Govm't wants to give him the same treatment as the Peruvian Government gave Sendero Luminoso's Abimael Guzmán. For the Peruvian Government it would have been easy to kill him off. Instead, they caged him like the dog that he is, and exposed him to the World to see his absolute disassociative mental dissorders. When this became self-evident to everyone, the whole Maoist Guerrilla movement deflated like a burst baloon.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 05:41:06 PM EST
    Yes, Jlvngstn where are the bodies? the fact is we have bodies here, remember waco? but that was only 87 murdered old people and kids, many black on top of that. and to gerry owen/paul, yes but how many other nation state like china have been doing Genocide? saddam was made by our so called borderless nation state of really insane people, who is doing what to who? and about Milosevic, what did he do? that bush and many others are doing now? you can't find one mass Grave that Milosevic order made, but i can show you mass Graves here in our country from 1898 brimming over with little ones and old people, that our government needed to kill for law and order. so its really how you look at a political idea? and paul, the destruction of a culture is happening right now here in our little part of the world, can you see it?

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#44)
    by roy on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 06:22:12 PM EST
    If you're debating just how big an a-hole Saddam is, don't forget the scud attacks on civilian areas in Israel during the 1st Gulf War. Not sure if you'd call it genocide, since Israel had some (non combat) involvement with the war.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 06:57:50 PM EST
    So where are the 300,000 bodies? Something tells me that 300,000 would be pretty hard to hide. Again, he was a dictator, sick and twisted, but deserves a fair trial and we need to see whether or not the 300,000 was just more propagada on our part. Still avoiding the question. How much influence does Milosevic have over the serbs? How many are killing "in his name"? More cries for blood from blood thirsty americans.....

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 07:25:14 PM EST
    Turning him over to the Court at the Hague has always made the most sense to me. I assume it isn't on the table because the US does not want a trial open enough to embarass us about our past support for this guy during times when he was probably at his worst (Iran-Iraq war in the 80's, btw), but he was our buddy then and the Ayatollah was the Great Satan. Wait a minute, weren't we the Great Satan? I always get this stuff about who is the Great Satan all mixed up. Thank goodness we have herpetologists like Jim to absolutely identify snakes so we don't get into the Great Satan confusion where science and positive identification become slightly more difficult.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#47)
    by Johnny on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 08:49:40 PM EST
    "You can also expect that, if alive, hotsages to be taken, etc., for exchange for his release." Hostages have not swayed our purpose one bit.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:06:04 AM EST
    "Posted by Jlvngstn: "So where are the 300,000 bodies? Something tells me that 300,000 would be pretty hard to hide." The point is that you are thinking about genocide in numeric terms, a common error in terminology. Genocide is not dependent on some magic number analysis. Destroying 1,000s of villages is plenty, even if many of the refugees survive. The same holds true for the genocide of Fallujah. It is TOTALLY illegal to use collective guilt (racist) theories to justify leveling 40% of the buildings (and most of the infrastructure) in a town of 300,000 people. That act IS genocide, and it is not the only act of genocide in this illegal, fruitless invasion. " Again, he was a dictator, sick and twisted, but deserves a fair trial" Nobody ever said he shouldn't get a fair trial. So should Bush.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 05:52:03 AM EST
    If we can't find bodies in anywhere near the numbers the neo-cons have claimed and the number of civilians killed in this unjust war is more than the number of innocents killed by Saddam then obiviously it is Bush who should be tried

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 06:19:09 AM EST
    Jlvngstn- By the way, they never found anywhere close to 6 million bodies after the holocaust, either- I guess you would say that didn't happen? From my understanding, giant plastic shredders do not leave much that a drain and a dustbroom cannot remove. The Arabian Deserts are a brutal environment- bodies dessicate rather quickly and crumble. The Iraqi records speak to hundreds of thousands of executions, as did the Nazi's.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 08:10:31 AM EST
    Let's not compare apples to filet mignons Gerry. The holocaust occurred no question, and it was an atrocity. But again, there was no talk about a "shredding program" by Saddam. The US press said that there were over 300 mass grave sites with 300,000 bodies in them. That is approximately 1000 bodies per. They did not say that Saddam was cremating them, they did not say that he was destroying the bodies. They said emphatically that there were 300k bodies in mass graves, and as of yet they have failed to unearth even a fraction of that number. When the Kurds had the uprising, Saddam viciously attacked and killed as many as he could without any consideration to the geneva conventions, and for that he should be tried. People die in revolutions or uprisings, although they should not be subject to the carpet bombing type attacks. If your answer Gerry is that "we know he did it, we just can't prove it" that goes against the grain of this nation's policy on crime and punishment. It is hard to defend such a despicable person, but Saddam has a right to face his accusers and the allegations escpecially if they are grossly exaggerated to justify our military action. We trumped up the wmd and it only makes me think that the 300k is a myth also.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 09:12:49 AM EST
    So far, by your own count it is 15,000 and counting. The Kurds buried several thousand more, as did the Marsh Arabs- who were also straved out by Saddam altering the course of the Rivers and draining the Marshes that supported their way of life. Many bodies were "delivered" (dumped) on their families doorsteps as a warning through the years- these will not be interred in Mass graves either. Iraq's records report tens of thousands. Some estimates are as high as a half million. Be it 50,000 or 500,000- what is the difference? he and his regime were still evil and the country is better off without him, and it is still genocide.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    Gerry, the Iraq records have not been released as of yet so how would you know what they say? Secondly, Saddam had a right as the leader of the nation to fight the uprising of the Kurdish peoples (not the right to kill at will) and most of those bodies that you are speaking of came as a result of his suppressing the uprising. Is George Bush going to be tried for killing Iraqis that are fighting the americans? Of course not because it is a scurrilous charge. Saddam had a right to defend his position of power and he did so, and killed approximately 10-15k Kurds, which is funny you should mention that amount. You cannot call it genocide if he was defending his country from a revolutionary or insurgent attack. And YES the difference between 300,000 and 15,000 is MONUMENTAL. The greater question is how many were killed in the attempted civil war and would that qualify as genocide? I will hold out judgement as to the charge of genocide until the evidence is presented, just like I held out with wmd.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:08:05 AM EST
    Be it 50,000 or 500,000- what is the difference?
    the difference is the truth, not a foreign concept to you G.O., i hope. if bushCO had simply said "saddam is interfering with america's oil flow and the world's current economic system which could lead to a destabilization of the region and possibly the world; we need to do a jack move on his a$$". buchCo could/would have still garnered the necessary support, rendering the current opposition, allegations and bickering mute. americans don't like to be lied to, it's a credibility thing, regardless your like or dislike of bushCo, americans need to believe politicians (especially the president) is at least a forthright character (as much as a politician can be). pre-emptive troll away: stating you didn't have sex when you did also damages your credibility. (but nobody died so that credibility gap/lapse is of a slightly lesser magnitude than this one)

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:28:42 AM EST
    jlvnstn- I do not consider the gassing of civillian targets, the wholesale razing of villages and the slaughter of those inhabitants to be Civil War- by that standard, Darfur's current situation is A-ok! Any regime should be expected to fight for its survival, however, and your point about the casualties from the civil war is well taken. I seriously doubt there will be a lot of mass graves that were NOT a direct result of insurrections- Many of the bodies were returned to their families, or buried in prison cemeteries in "normal working conditions" (or at least significant pieces of them- I met a lady once whose father's head was delivered to her uncle's flower shop). I remember reports that some bodies were dumped in the Marshes in the hopes it would spread disease among the Marsh Arabs, who Saddam tried to exterminate with even more effectiveness than his war on the Kurds (at least the Kurds had the means to fight back). I too seriously doubt that they will find 300,000 bodies in a bunch of mass graves- but I do not doubt Saddam's regime killed at least that to stay in power and keep the people cowed in fear.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:48:29 AM EST
    outside- Gulf I was about oil, this war was and is about changing the Mideast. Our casus belli was Saddam's failure to comply with the UN resolutions, with WMD being the primary concern- a big flop, which exposed just how incompetent our Intel community has become. It does not change the fact that Saddam WAS in violation of the UN resolutions, and was an all around bastard the world could well do without. I don't see where we were lied to, just misinformed- The CIA has a long history of mismanagement, neglect, and foolish shortsighted regulations to overcome (no, it isn't all Clinton's fault). I would hope ANY President would act on information his CIA tells him is a "slam dunk". I think we've all beaten up on the Agency appropriately, and I hope (though doubt) the changes implemented will help in the future- but WMD seemed to me atleast to be of secondary importance as to whether or not we needed to go to war.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:36:14 PM EST
    Gerry, I am not of the opinion that the pres lied, and I agree wholeheartedly that the "slam dunk" comment made was a kick in the teeth. That said, the presence of wmd was spun by intel sources fueled by Chalabi and believed by most of the planet. I would argue that the "genocide" was fueled by the same groups in an attempt to create another reason for us to go to war. Clinton used the sanctions (which i opposed) and targeted bombing containment (which i supported) in an attempt to contain Saddam and create enough pressure to induce a revolution or an overthrow of his gov't. An overthrow would not have (in my opinion) created a democratic style gov't as typically when a tyrant is ousted a new one takes place; ergo the military action will probably net a better result than had we waited for a coup. That said, there were plenty in the intel field that thought the intel was hasty and inaccurate and incomplete and he still went forward with the military action. The intel agencies are not in complete disarray, nor are they inept. They were responding to 9-11 and the fear of short-sighting an assessment and felt it better to err on the side of aggression.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:51:51 PM EST
    Jlvngstn The disarray may not be complete but it is hard to argue against inept. Since I know you want our intelligence capabilities to improve, and believe they can, I wouldn't at this time give them any better grade than they deserve - F with a recommendation they improve their study habits and skills before the next test

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:59:10 PM EST
    JCH - The report written by the task force commended the intel community for its accuracy regarding Libya's programs and Iran's programs, so I find it difficult to use inept. There were plenty in the intel field disputing the Iraq dossier but Tenet opted to listen to those that had a different view. I think our intel is the best in the world, despite my feelings about the negative effects of spying. Is there need for reform, or better checks and balances? Sure. But the same report that blasted intel on Iraq, lauded them on Iran and Libya....

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    Gerry, point taken and agreed with caution. We used napalm, atomic bombs, gas etc against our enemies because it was at our disposal. That said, I think Saddam is chemically imbalanced and did not use them to limit casualties in a long drawn out war, but simply because he wanted to send a message that he was all powerful. He is and was a very sick man.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:36:25 PM EST
    "Posted by Jlvngstn: "You cannot call it genocide if he was defending his country from a revolutionary or insurgent attack." You are wrong. The theory that a ruler has endless prerogatives in 'his' country has been entirely discredited with the passage of international treaties on genocide. "The genocide convention boldly closed many of Nuremburg's loopholes. It made states (and rebels) liable for genocide regardless of whether they committed aggression against another country or attacked only their internal 'enemies.' Peacetime or wartime, inside a country or outside, the 1948 treaty made no distinction." (Power, Genocide: A Problem from Hell, p. 58.) As for 'finding the bodies,' no concerted effort has ever been made TO find the bodies. Centcom is certainly not looking; Iraq doesn't have a government (how could it, while US-hired mercs are going around killing at will?), and even Hussein's capture was a made-for-tv LIE. And, indeed, Hussein's genocidal actions WAS NOT focused on insurgents, but on the entire Kurd population in rural Iraq. Gee, that's oddly similar to Centcom's genocide at Fallujah. Some women were allowed to escape; men were forced back into the city, which was then bombed flat. THAT is genocide. It is no longer the middle of the Dark Ages. Bush and USPNAC would like to roll the clock back, but the tide of history is going to drown THEM in the bloody bathtub of their actions.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 01:49:38 PM EST
    Not true Paul. The Kurds were pretty much alone in their uprising and he suppressed them. An argument can be made for the anfal campaign, but an argument will be rendered against it as they were plotting to overthrow his gov't. He does have a right to protect his country from insurgency and he exercised that right. You think it was genocide, I think he was overly aggressive in beating them to a pulp. I think I will allow the courts to make that determination. As for your remarks on our involvement in fallujah, our president and our military is certainly not guilty of even conspiracy to commit "genocide". In fact, they gave the townspeople warning to leave so that they could limit the amount of civilian deaths. There has been an effort to find the bodies, the found and exhumed approximately 60 "mass grave sites". The found approximately 5k in bodies which were almost all attributed to the 91 attack as a result of the attempt to overthrow saddam which we sanctioned but did not militarily support.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 02:40:46 PM EST
    I don't see where we were lied to, just misinformed
    the best lies ever told are about 80-85% truth G.O., you only have to misinform about 5-10% of it, but it's still a lie. to suggest that this war is not about oil is quite disingenuous on your part. should i list the reasons from the start to the one your quoting know, we've had at least 5 reasons for going into iraq, all lies. i say again, admit it's about oil and more than half this left/right bickering/back-n-forth becomes mute. you ignore the testimony of the shell oil executive who said in 2001 bushCo was plotting (with infighting) to divvy up the iraq oil fields. the pipeline from that K'stan country cutting through iraq, a lost deal for america but with the invasion uSa is back in the drivers seat, kissenger’s comments, rummy just today stating want many already knew, the u.s. has no exit plan, never did, never will, the air bases, the $1b embassy. hate to get all "Fred D" on you, but these are not little isolated incidents that result in coincidence, heck no, this is that great big ol "C" called conspiracy. the american people were "hoodwinked, bamboozled, lead astray", iraqis didn't land on the democracy rock, the democracy rock landed on them. (got a little X'cised there.) this war is/was and will remain about oil, any caveats like spreading democracy etc., is what we call round these parts "gravy" or if your up north "icing".

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 03:55:01 PM EST
    Harry was right - buck stops on President Bush's desk regardless of whether he knew what he said about WMD was right or not. All that water WAY past bridge now however - and we cant even not vote for him again again. I personally did not see a mass enough exodus from the CIA with boxes full of pictures to think the President was real upset over the misinformation. If I sincerely thought there were WMD and found out there were none, everyone who touched that report would be looking for a job

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 04:21:37 PM EST
    "Posted by Jlvngstn: "Not true Paul. The Kurds were pretty much alone in their uprising and he suppressed them." The Kurds were not a uniform mass of rebels. He committed genocide against the entire culture, under what is now recognized as 'collective guilt' theory, which is racist. Slaughtering civilians under this theory is EXACTLY what the Turks did against the Armenians in the teens and twenties: "'We have been reproached for making no distinction between innocent Armenians and the guilty,' (genocidist) Talat told a German reporter. 'But that was utterly impossible, in view of the fact that those who were innocent today might be guilty tomorrow.'" You are now by your own words a genocide APOLOGIST. Hussein slaughtered not just rebels, but babies, old blind grandfathers, little girls, and invalids. Indiscriminate chemical weapons use on civilian populations? That's GENOCIDE. " An argument can be made for the anfal campaign," Oh really! Arguments have been made for Auschwitz. Welcome to that club. "He does have a right to protect his country from insurgency and he exercised that right." No, he does not have that right. That supposed right blew out the windown in 1948, when the right of dictators within 'their own' countries to behave with impunity behind the wall of nationalism was categorically REPUDIATED under international law (which includes US law, btw). "You think it was genocide," Under international law, it WAS genocide. That's not my opinion, that's the facts. "I think he was overly aggressive in beating them to a pulp. I think I will allow the courts to make that determination." The issue is not one of determination by a court, though confirmation by a court is certainly needed before we can dispatch yet another traitor to the human race. The acts ARE genocide, under international law, as legislated, and ratified. "As for your remarks on our involvement in fallujah, our president and our military is certainly not guilty of even conspiracy to commit "genocide". In fact, they gave the townspeople warning to leave so that they could limit the amount of civilian deaths." That doesn't matter. "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: • (a) Killing members of the group; • (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; • (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;" Hussein gave shoot-to-kill orders on the cleared rural areas. That in itself is an act of genocide under the law. 'Warning' civilians to leave an area does NOT clear the perpetrators of the crimes they then commit. Destruction of the cultural materiel, the mosques, and the people of Iraq has been an act of genocide. You can deny that -- genocide deniers are legion. Hug a Nazi, JL. You have joined with them in justifying their crimes.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 07:46:54 PM EST
    Outside- The war only relates to oil in that oil is the primary economic reason anyone in the world really cares what occurs in that region as a whole. However, as the world grows smaller, we all must realize that opression breeds extremism, and those extremists are no longer confined by traditional borders, wherever it is found. Paul- While I agree (for the first time ever) with you that Saddam's extermination campaign was genocide, the anfal was more of a forced resettlement, so jlvngstn is making a valid point. The Kurds have been fighting the various govt's of the region since they were shafted by the allies after the first world war. I also noticed you mentioned the Turkish slaughter of the Armenians, I think you might find it interesting to do some research into who the Ottomans employed to carry it out. fleetguy- The reason you do not see a mass exodus from the CIA is because there are a lot of good people there who have been prevented by foolish regulations and some pointless taskings from developing and creating the sources needed to GET a clear picture of Iraq. jlvngstn- point taken about the a bomb, etc. I think one could make theargument that the acceptable uses of warfare are slowly evolving away from the total war tactics of WW II, at least for our part. Different cultures also have different morays and customs that translate into different sets of rules for battlefield conduct. You gave me a lot to ponder there.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:41:30 PM EST
    Gerry, I agree absolutely - I was talking about Bush's reaction. The only way what happened at the CIA could happen is a culture gone very wrong (at least in that instance - but I suspect more). My point was my lack of faith in President Bush's reaction - he is misled by people he tasked and ultimately hired. If I were in his position, and got suckered by my employees failing at their jobs - it would have gotten ugly in pink slip land. Just do not think he was all that upset by the mistakes.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:44:00 PM EST
    No Gerry, the Anfal was not a 'resettlement,' just as ethnic cleansing is not resettlement. There were --40-- chemical weapons drops on towns, usually with machine guns set up at the edge of town to mow down people fleeing. Chemical Ali is famous for bragging: "A different insecticide for each kind of bug." Oppression breeds extremism? Then it would be best to stop oppressing people for wealth, eh? And what part of AIRBASES is extremism? Bush and his clan are as extremist a gov't as the US has ever had. The Turks themselves carried out the genocide. Why are you so coy? INVASION for profit is not 'war,' like WWII was war. It is invasion, it is putting the iron boot on the neck of the civilian population and forcing them to live with that oppression. It has nothing to do with the issue of legitimate war against a concerted enemy. The invasion of Iraq is based on Collective Guilt theory, which is now recognized as RACIST.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#69)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:42:17 AM EST
    Paul, your answers so distort the law I do not know that they warrant a reply. Relative to Fallujah, you imply that the US armed forces intended to destroy in part or whole a specific ethnic, racial or religious group. The insurgents are not part of any "specific" group mentioned thereof. There has been no edict directed at our soldiers to my knowledge to kill all iraqis, all sunnis, all islamists etc. The edict as I understand it is to shoot those that are shooting at you. As far as Saddam and the Kurds, I would argue that Turkey did a lot worse than Saddam and we are not overthrowing the Turkish gov't. What Saddam did in anfal was disgusting, but an argument can and will be made that it was part of the defense of his regime. I don't think of myself as an apologist for Saddam nor do I take any joy in defending his actions. However, the geopolitical landscape as it is requires a certain sense of relative consideration. If the rule of law were applied with equal weight notwithstanding outside considerations, Bill Clinton and Albright would be prosecuted similarly for Waco. Which of course was an abomination, but not genocide by any stretch of the imagination. Gerry, thanks for the discussion, you and I do not agree often relative to the ends justifying the means but I do respect your opinion and believe in the merits of your arguments..

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:58:24 AM EST
    Paul- The Turks played the Kurds off on the Armenians. The Ottomans my have given the orders, but it was the Kurds who were the footsoldiers in the Armenian massacre. You are correct (at least, so far as the reporting goes) as to the more sordid parts of the anfal program- The only thing I was wanting to clarify is that the focus was resettlement. Thousands were forced out of their homes and forced into the northern hills. Yes thousands were killed, and genocide was committed- but that was not the totality of the program. Minor point- I agree with your premise in general. Fleetguy- I don't think Bush was that concerned because WMD wasn't his primary issue. Tenet was forced out (who I feel was a good man in a horrible situation). A lot of changes have come about so far, although Im not sold on some of the major ones.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:31:44 AM EST
    jlvngstn- "The edict as I understand it is to shoot those that are shooting at you." This is something EVERYONE tends to forget. From a legal standpoint, I agree with you on this. Any regime has to be expected to defend itself when threatened, although the circumstances behind the mass graves should also be considered (were they executed? Were they combatants? etc.) Interesting discussion- you gave me a lot to think on, and let the record show I finally agreed with Paul in LA on something besides the earth being round.

    Re: New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for S (none / 0) (#72)
    by glanton on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:47:05 AM EST
    "I don't think Bush was that concerned because WMD wasn't his primary issue." Well, friends, what do you do with that? It's amazing to me how some of you people jusr refuse to take your lips off of the GOP ass. Admit it Gerry whatever Bush did you were going to back it, if he invaded Germany today you'd drink down whatever justification he gave. Stop pretending to think when really you merely echo, please. The whole war was sold to us on grounds of WMD, it's what rallied unsuspecing tool/citizens who were afraid 9/11 was going to become a pattern; Powell made a damn fool out of himself and one day his presentation at the UN will be performed as Theater of the Absurd, or perhaps Theater of Cruelty. Et al: Oil is an important true reason for all the American killings and deaths that have occured since Dubya took over, but really in the end this war was all about consolidating political power. Start a war, become a consequential and hard to defeat president, even if you're George W. Bush. But the real blame falls on our own increasingly callow population, and definitely worthless media, for playing along so blissfully.

    New Iraq President Opposes Death Penalty for Saddam | 72 comments (72 topical)