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Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq - al- Qaida Link

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:21:26 AM EST
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Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) has released a document showing the Administration knew of the lack of ties between Iraq and al Qaida before going to war.

A TOP Democratic senator has released formerly classified documents that he says undercut top US officials' pre-Iraq war claims of a link between Saddam Hussein's regime and the al-Qaeda terrorist network. "These documents are additional compelling evidence that the intelligence community did not believe there was a cooperative relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda, despite public comments by the highest ranking officials in our government to the contrary," Senator Carl Levin said today.

The declassified documents undermine the Bush administration's claims regarding Iraq's involvement in training al-Qaeda operatives and the likelihood of a meeting between September 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in April 2001, Senator Levin said in a statement

[link via Buzzflash.]

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    • Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq - al- Qaida Link | 57 comments (57 topical)
    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 12:13:19 PM EST
    And the Shoes keep dropping. I feel a bit of Vietnam flash back coming on. There came a time when you no longer had any emotional response to the constant drumbeat of horrors befalling us. I'm numb

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 12:45:23 PM EST
    Over 1,500 Americans who signed up to defend their country have died for a lie. I wonder how the neocons live with themselves? How do they sleep at night?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#3)
    by Patrick on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 01:24:53 PM EST
    Find me one place in history, anywhere, where the Bush Administration blamed Iraq or Saddam for the events of 911. They were a terrorist supporting government and as such were a legitimate target in the war on terror. It was never a war against al-Qaida, but a war against all terrorist and the countries that supported them. The sooner you all can figure that out the sooner you'll bounce back to reality. Let the name calling & personal attacks begin.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 01:54:07 PM EST
    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002" These Senators get the intelligence briefings. Evidently he thought enough of them to say the above.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#5)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 01:55:35 PM EST
    " In late 2001, Vice President Cheney said it was "pretty well confirmed" that attack mastermind Mohamed Atta met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official." He lied. Then, in declaring the end of major combat in Iraq on May 1, Bush linked Iraq and the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks: "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001. Moments later, Bush added: "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda" Richard N. Perle, who until recently was chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board, long argued that there was Iraqi involvement, calling the evidence "overwhelming."

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#7)
    by john horse on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 01:58:22 PM EST
    Patrick, Noone is saying that "the Bush Administration blamed Iraq or Saddam for the events of 911." The Bush administration did claim that there was a "cooperative relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda". I guess when the evidence does not support your side, it must be easier to argue against what critics never said than what they actually said.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 01:59:38 PM EST
    Those must be some great earplug you got Patrick... That was a mantra for Bushco

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:03:28 PM EST
    Bush and his Government have no ideals of what is going to happen. the lack of common sense is not known by the bush boys in any area of government, the funny thing is people think this war may work! and freedom will ring all over the mideast, if that isn't a joke i have no idea what is. if you saw on C-Span the interview with (so called) Brig.Gen.Janis Karpinski it would be understood why this war will roll-on-for 20 years. she was doing the old game of coverup and its funny to watch. and she states some facts without knowing it, about the insane non intelligence community that should paralyze you in fear. if you want to know what will happen next, just see who bush has been talking to? hey people think "Syria will be used in iraq", watch and see, bush made the deal.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:07:13 PM EST
    PPJ tell Patrick about the AQ links

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:09:32 PM EST
    It was never a war against al-Qaida, but a war against all terrorist and the countries that supported them. Perhaps. I think we bungled our priorities though. We should have invaded Iran first. Then Syria. And then possibly Saudi Arabia, though it would be unpopular by that point, but necessary. Eventually, Iraq would come up for its tangential associations with terrorists, but not before Syria, Iran, etc. Also, Afghanistan was the correct first choice of action. I'd hope we could all agree on that.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:19:05 PM EST
    "Afghanistan was the correct first choice of action. I'd hope we could all agree on that." You hope in vain. It was stupid to invade Afghanistan. It was precisely what bin laden expected. You never, ever, do what an enemy expects. And it was bungled, as you know. Bin Laden escaped, Zawahiri escaped, and Omar escaped. And the place is a disaster area which is not much better. Worse, the US is being blamed for the disasters, as it is in Iraq. We are breeding 100's of new bin Ladens right now, and they will come back to haunt us. As for invading all those countries, I can only assume that since you are so gung-ho all this invading that you are a member of the armed forces or intend on enlisting right away.Otherwise you're being very cavalier with other people's lives.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#13)
    by chupetin on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:20:40 PM EST
    Skaje, You are not going to find a lot of disagreement re Afghanistan. Its the invasion of Iraq that pisses most people off.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:27:54 PM EST
    Patrick - Why do more than half of the citizens in the U.S, and, almost inevitably, a much higher percentage of Bush supporters including a couple that regularly post here, believe that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks? Is this the result of an administration that adheres to high standards of clarity, honesty, and intelligence in its communications to the citizenry, and, theres a lot of folks in this country that are just-a-little-slow? Or, could it be that it better serves the purposes of "the Bush Doctrine" to instill, subtly, the perception/belief in an Iraq - Al Queda connection? If we're going to fight terrorism anywhere and everywhere in the presidents self-described "endless war", then we should redefine terrorism to NOT include the killing of tens of thousands of noncombatants in a country whose leader we wish to dispose of.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:33:56 PM EST
    PPJ - Ill start taking seriously what Dems and Reps say about the situation in the M.E when they stop taking all that Oil money.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    Exactly Unlike Iraq, Afghanistan was actually harboring Al-Qaida so I think it was justified to retaliate against the Taliban.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 02:38:23 PM EST
    Unless you are willing to become a member of the US armed services and trek on over to the Iraqi war zone or the poppy fields of Afghanistan and risk your neck fighting the opium drug warlords, don't be using fighting words. The economy is sinking into an abyss because of the way we behave towards the rest of the world. Be paranoid because they are out to get the US. The place has gone nuts and people are climbing the walls. Don't expect any help from the government, they're being driven mad by the constant fears that have been saddled upon them by their own paranoia. I've got sore eyes from the sight of it all.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#18)
    by Don on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 04:10:23 PM EST
    The US Congress, including most Democrats, and most of the nations citizens were hoodwinked by the Bush administration. Like anyone who has been conned, people will react with growing anger as they realize the extent to which they were snookered, especially if the con men appear to be continuing their fraud. Don't expect this all to go away. The revelations and righteous indignation will grow and grow. There will be political payback for sure. How do you think the soldiers who have been abused as a fighting force will react as the stories unravel?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 04:36:57 PM EST
    wow, have seen this story on so called liberal media? Bush is going to get away with everthing, you liberals should know when you are conquered.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 05:25:21 PM EST
    I still say we should have taken Baikonur...At least we know where those launch pads are--I think.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 06:36:48 PM EST
    Afghanistan... that's a tough one. On the surface it is the obvious, logical reaction. Inevitable even. However if you look at the history of Afghanistan and how the Taliban rose to power and what relationship they had to the rise of Osama Bin Laden and the forming of Al Queda out of the Afghan Mujahadeen army you might conclude that a. we had a lot to do with supporting the rise of the Taliban, They are the Afghan freedom fighters - the "brothers in arms" of Dire Straits fame (I really love that album) Also it was a trap of sorts. OBL isn't Afghani - he doesn't give a F*** about the people who live there. They knew before the second plane hit the WTC that American was gunnin' for Afghanistan because our pres. couldn't help it. The country is a freakin mess. Run by drug dealers and warlords. I'm puttin my money on the position that Bushco never any intention of rebuilding either country after the war. That he only cares about gathering political capital from reactionary patriotism to solidify the republican base and achieve Roves plan for a permanent Repub. majority. Funny though. I'm starting to think that the hens might come home to roost in this case. We've acted in a way that is politically so embarassingly naive that we've lost any confidence in our ability to convince others of our competency. They are just "dealing with us" while getting their hands on as much money and power as they can. 9/11 may be the "Godsend" for the republican party that ultimately damages it - but by then George will be building his library and engaging in these bizarre photo ops where ex prezes act like they've been in the back room smoking cigars and laughing at us all these years.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 08:56:41 PM EST
    PPJ - a particuarly large pile of crap. You've out done your self.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimcee on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 09:05:55 PM EST
    OK, let's say that Bushco lied etc, this seems to be a little late for regrets because the deed has been done and there is no undoing it, period. Invade Iran, wow now there's a strategy...for a fool. Unless of course if you want to re-install the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam in Iraq and give them a "do-over" but I would hope that you would at least ask the Afghans and Iraqis if they want these guys back in power. Otherwise this thread is a waste of time no matter if you were pro or con in relation to the liberation of those two countries. What is done is done the real question is what's next?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 09:46:34 PM EST
    Tristero is right, but who helped Bin Laden Escape? check out who two days before our attack on someone in our non government informed the "Pakistani" Government which sent cargo planes to help in the escape of 8,000 taliban and Al-Qaeda guys like Bin Laden!...some troops have reported that our guys knew were bin laden was, some say, our intelligence authorization was need to move cargo planes into this are, who is doing who and why?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#27)
    by bronco214 on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 10:37:07 PM EST
    I wonder how the neocons live with themselves? How do they sleep at night? I imagine that on silk sheets you sleeppretty well!

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#28)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:28:07 PM EST
    What a horrible intelligence failure by the US by announcing the presence of WMD's. After uncovering though, the mass graves, I would hope that we should have queried... 'why not sooner????'

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:12:16 AM EST
    Bah. I was being facetious about invading half the middle east. And, tristero, it can be argued that the Afghanistan campaign was bungled, but that doesn't change the fact that action was necessary against the regime that supported AlQueda. But you would be right to call me out on my gung-ho military opinion, if I was actually serious about invading Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. The point is that so many countries have ties to AlQueda that to invade them all would be crazy. And yes PPJ, I am Monday Morning Quarterbacking. We all are. None of us knew back in 2002 exactly what Iraq's connection (or lack thereof) to AlQueda was. All we had was what the administration told us. The administration told us there were contacts between AlQueda and Iraq. The administration did not explicitly say Iraq caused 9/11, but the insinuation was obvious. ... In all honesty, I don't like to get involved in Iraq debates. I prefer to stick to social policy, which I feel much more confident about. On one hand, I know that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who regularly ignored UN sanctions. On the other hand, I know that half the Third World is run by corrupt tyrants. We can't take them all out. We can't bring freedom everywhere. And I feel chicken-hawkish, blithely throwing out which country I think we should attack, when I would never actually enlist myself. So what to do now? Whether or not attacking Iraq was the correct choice of action, we have another choice now. To stay, or to bring the troops home. My instincts tell me that leaving Iraq in the condition it is now would only invite further civil unrest, followed by a coup and a new Saddam, this time one a bit more like the radicals running Iran, where women are stoned to death for the "crime" of being raped. In all honesty, I feel somewhat hopeless about the whole situation in the middle east, where homosexuals are beheaded, men can beat their wives without punishment, and women are arrested for showing ankle in public. Can we force democracy on them? Perhaps. Can we force basic human rights on them? I'm less certain.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:13:36 AM EST
    Ed Beckman writes - "I feel a bit of Vietnam flash back coming on." Ed, were you around during Vietnam? If so, you must know that there is no resemblance between the Iraq and Vietnam. But, if you were, and if you have a point, why not make it instead of just off the cuff statements? Skaje - Nice Monday morning quarterbacking, although you really can't hold a candle to Tristero's lecture on how you never do what the enemy expects. Let me see. Al-qaida is in Afghanistan. What should we do? Oh. I know! Invade Bermuda. Duhhhh. IM - Well, snarky request aside. Let me see... Here we have a country who's leader absolutely hates us. Here we have a group of terrorists who absolutelty hate us. Now a reasonable person would assume that they would cooperate with each other. And since the vast number of Americams are reasonable, guess what? They assume they would cooperate with each other. And even the 911 Commission, that noted monument to politics, said that there were contacts.But hey, pay no attention to common sense. It is so much more fun to rant. BHAW

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:36:51 AM EST
    CLAIM: "There's overwhelming evidence there was a connection between al Qaeda and the Iraqi government. I am very confident that there was an established relationship there." - Vice President Cheney, 1/22/04"

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:41:41 AM EST
    "Posted by Don: "The US Congress, including most Democrats... were hoodwinked by the Bush administration." NOPE. I presume you refer to the Iraq resolution. That vote was: House Dems: 60% NAY Senate Dems: 50% NAY The YEA votes were pure politics, a reflection of the dirty pool these wingers play, calling Daschle a traitor and the like. Neither of the Dem presidents we have elected this millenium would have invaded Iraq, but neither would have missed Bin Laden after 911. Oh, that's right, a "Second Pearl Harbor." So 911 wouldn't have happened, at least, not with only two fighter jets engaged. Under President Gore, the Twin Towers would still be standing, and the nation would mourn the dead on some airliners that were hijacked and then forced down by the US military. 1,551 of our nation's best soldiers would still be alive. Thousands of our brave soldiers would still have their arms and legs. Since it is the demonstrated height of malfeasance to send 2,000 troops against the 'Dead or Alive' to-be-caught ringleader of 911, there really is no denying that the reason why the US attacked Afgh. was to satisfy a major goal of the USPNAC project paper, namely to pipe, for big profit, Tajikestan oil, through Kabul, and out to the Persian Gulf in Pakistan. NO OTHER policy purposes have been accomplished than to set up Cheney's Pipelinestan. Occam's Razor tells you the rest. A ceasefire is being negotiated with the Taliban; outside Kabul they are still in charge. That the 'energy meetings' were the conspiracy behind these actions (including the "carpet of gold, or carpet of bombs" statement by the US to the Taliban in JULY 2001, right before Bush's month-long vacation negligence) is now coming out. Treason, malfeasance, and war crimes. It's the Trifecta.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:17:11 AM EST
    PATRICK:"They were a terrorist supporting government and as such were a legitimate target in the war on terror." NOPE: CIA review finds no evidence Saddam had ties to Islamic terrorists By WARREN P. STROBEL, JONATHAN S. LANDAY and JOHN WALCOTT Knight Ridder Newspapers http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/9836114.htm WASHINGTON - A new CIA assessment undercuts the White House's claim that Saddam Hussein maintained ties to al-Qaida, saying there's no conclusive evidence that the regime harbored Osama bin Laden associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The CIA review, which U.S. officials said Monday was requested some months ago by Vice President Dick Cheney, is the latest assessment that calls into question one of President Bush's key justifications for last year's U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. The new assessment follows the independent Sept. 11 commission's finding that there was no "collaborative relationship" between the former Iraqi regime and bin Laden's terrorist network. "The evidence is that Saddam never gave Zarqawi anything," another U.S. official said. There's no dispute that al-Zarqawi spent time in Iraq before the U.S. invasion, but virtually all that time was in a portion of northeastern Iraq that wasn't under Saddam's control. Some officials believe that Saddam's secular regime kept an eye on al-Zarqawi, an Islamic extremist, but didn't actively assist him. Al-Zarqawi 's ties to al-Qaida are in dispute. While he clearly shares much of al-Qaida's violent ideology and ran an al-Qaida camp in Afghanistan, the Jordanian has his own organization, acts independently and hasn't sworn fealty to bin Laden.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:29:00 AM EST
    PPJ Is off his meds again. Tell us about the voices, AkA fool. Now I understand why everyone told me to just ignore this clown. Nice PPJ, Nice Boy.. Please take you pretty colored pills. You'll be doing a good thing.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:36:27 AM EST
    The Bushbag rule for Wingnuts: If your dumb enough to believe our Bulls**t Were smart enough to dish it out to you. Count PPj (akafool) in.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:43:08 AM EST
    Jimcee If someone raped and killed you wife and daughter. "this seems to be a little late for regrets because the deed has been done and there is no undoing it, period." Well try your flippant remarks on the family and friends of the soldiers and Iraqies Killed, raped and mamed all because Bushbag & co LIED!

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:31:06 AM EST
    Ed Beckman - Dumb is as dumb does, and you lead the parade with your unsupported charges. First, I note you didn't answer my question about your Vietnam comment. You know, the one that asked if you were around then, and if you were, exactly what comparsion do you find? I guess you weren't around and don't really have a comparsion. Ignore? Clown? Comment something specific, Ed. Tell us something besides old PPJ is dumb. I mean if you don't have anything to say, why don't you just set on the sideline and observe. You might be able to handle that. But you won't. Your style is to make snarky remarks in front of all the other boys, saying, "See! Look at me!" Skaje - You are correct. We didn't want to invade all the countries in the ME, so we chose Iraq to be first, with the hope that by getting rid of Saddam and establishing a democracy there, we could pressure the other countries to get rid of al-Qaida within their boundries. That was the goal of Bush's pre-emptive strategy. Strike those we think are bad and scare the rest into salvation. We've had some success, with Iran and Syria being the two most notable failures, although Syria appears to be backing away from Lebannon. We didn't invade SA for one reason. Interruption of the No 1 and No 2 oil supplies at the same time would absolutely zap the world's economy. But.... SA has arrested many more terrorists than in the past, has announced some reforms in women's rights and Egypt has announced an actual election for President. Will everything work out? The game is still afoot, as Sherlock said. But thing is for certain. Continuing the failed criminal justice policy - wait for them to kill then try to catch them - wasn't working. In fact, it was getting progressively worse.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:36:37 AM EST
    Poor PPj it's past his bed time. Just ignore his babble he'll soon whine himself to sleep.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:39:55 AM EST
    PIL - "but neither would have missed Bin Laden after 911." What horse hockey. Clinton and two chances to get OBL before 9/11 and didn't. So why do you think he, or Gore, would have captured him after 9/11? Do you understand that Clinton's administration discussed going into Afghanistan, but couldn't muster the diplomacy to establish invasion launch sites in Pakistan? BTW - Do they know you have escaped? ;-)

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:43:40 AM EST
    Ed - Still no comments, just attacks. You are defining yourself. Keep it up. Now go ahead, say something nasty. Don't bother to refute a comment. We all know you can't, so it doesn't matter.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:43:22 AM EST
    Great! You're figuring it out Ed. I like your comments - don't waste your time arguing with PPJ he hijacks threads and adds nothing.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#39)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:25:48 AM EST
    These recently declassified documents call into question the Bush administration's claim that their misrepresentation of evidence before the invasion of Iraq was the result of bad intelligence. Here we have direct evidence that the Bush adminstration ignored its own intelligence. For example, according to a CIA report, "the most reliable reporting to date casts doubt on (the) possiblity" of a meeting between Atta and Iraqi intelligence in Prague. Yet VP Cheney was claiming that this meeting was "pretty well confirmed." Why did VP Cheney make claims that were not correct? You can't say that he was acting on bad intelligence because the evidence that was available contradicted what he was saying (it also happened to be correct).

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:37:18 AM EST
    PPj I was around during Vietnam and know a little about "spreading democracy". There were probly more Al Queda connections in Detroit than in Iraq. The spread of terrorism today=spread of communism yesterday. Occupation by it's very nature makes you the enemy. Underprivileged Americans will bare the brunt of this. When the Vets clubs open up on campus, you will see what the wounded paid for their college education. We need to look very hard in the mirror before we declare a war on terror.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:54:49 AM EST
    Tim Z - The only problem with your comment is this. Vietnam was part of the Cold War, and our purpose was never very well defined, and many couldn't see the connection that it was really part of the confinement strategy postulated in the late 40's by Marshall and others. Worse, it was fought with one arm behind our back, and fought by an idiot of a President who worried about porportional response. That gave the enemy status they didn't deserve, and a miliary tool they should never have had. The Radical Left use our inane leadership to create a situation that aided the enemy, and in the end, caused us to lose the war because of politics. The Left thinks they can duplicate that again, but they cannot. We have too many channels for news and communications and the Internet provides even more, so controlling public opinion aint gonna fly this time. The WOT exists because we have people attacking us. This goes back about 15 years. You either accept the fact that you will play defense and try to catch them after they have killed Americans, or you say, no. This is getting worse and worse so it is time to take the fight to the terrorists. BTW - Your comment re Detroit re al-Qaida re Iraq is clever, but common sense, which I posted above, just destroys any such position.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:17:24 AM EST
    The purpose was defined (by 4 Administrations) as stopping the spread of communism in Indochina. As far as one hand tied behind our back, are you suggesting over 50,000 American boys dead was not enough? Should we have nuked them? Which idiot President, Ike, Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon? The "radical left" were predominatly the students in America, seeing it as wrong to die halfway around the world for someone elses democracy.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:48:11 AM EST
    It was refered to as " "containment" not "confinement". The fear of the "domino" effect led the Presidents to support any regime that was not communist. In Vietnam communism had to be contained, or Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, Malaysia and Indonesia would fall. The theory was that communists would then have a geographically strategic advantage to conquer Japan, Formosa, the Philippines, Australia, and New Zealand. This theory was very real at the time and accepted by mainstream America. Kennedy was afraid of the political implications of being soft on communism. Johnson escalated the war, suffered the consequences and refused to run in '68. Nixon engaged in realpolitic promising to pull out, then engaged in the secret bombing of Laos and Cambodia. This deception was what turned the mainstream public against the war. Check your history, the WOT exists because of our foreign policy in the ME dating back to the overthrow (CIA) of a democratic government in Iran to impose the Shah.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:47:07 PM EST
    in october 2002 bush said: "we've learned that iraq has trained al-qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gasses."
    c'mon patrick, where's the apology for being so wrong?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:08:46 PM EST
    TimZ`- No, it wasn't accepted, or the Left's actions wouldn't have been accepted. Or maybe a better way to say it would be, the MSM ignored it. Last time I checked LBJ got us as* deep in it. And Nixon, I seem to remember, promised to have a secret plan, not to pull out. His bombing did bring them to the table, he just didn't do enough of it. And no, that wasn't the problem. It was the MSM's continual harping on how we were losing. See Cronkite. See Tet. Nuke Hanoi? Heaven forbid we use our superior force to win a war. And the WOT exists because Radical Moslems believe they are destined to take over the world. Source DA - Yes. He sold it to Truman and Marshall. And a guy named Churchill had a word or two.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:39:28 PM EST
    Let me get this straight, Walter Cronkite was considered Left-wing in the late 60s? Junior, there were only 3 news stations in the country, ABC, NBC and CBS all very mainstream. The "secret" plan was Kissenger undermining the peace process, and telling the NV they would get a better deal under Nixon. Nixon did nothing but prolong the process, and accomplish nothing but more dead bodies. It was their country and Ho Chi Minh was prepared to fight forever, we wern't. Nuke Hanoi? I have just discover that your insane. What do you think Russia and China would have done? You probably would have never been born. Back to the ME and Iraq...Bottom line it's not about democracy. It's about establishing hegemony over oil and developing new markets. We will stay there to insure "stability" for oil, Nike, Colonel Sanders, or whatever we decide to move there. Blood on your hands.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:53:40 PM EST
    PPJ - the official la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la of TalkLeft. "Posted by JIm: "What horse hockey. Clinton and two chances to get OBL before 9/11 and didn't." And that would be BEFORE 911, which isn't what I was talking about. Bush had the backing of most of the country going after Bin Laden (unlike Clinton, who took flack FROM YOU GUYS over the possibility of attacking him), and he BOTCHED THE JOB. He put 130,000 troops into Iraq, claiming he had definitive evidence of which NONE has ever been produced, contrary to what he promised. And he put in a handful of troops, ended up relying on Taliban warlords to let ObL escape into this 'Pakistan' you talk about with such affection. And ObL WALKED, which is what I was saying would not have happened under either the legally-elected President Gore, or the legally-elected President Kerry. Indeed, Kerry would be massively more effective prosecuting terror than Bush, who is making such good money at it, and who cannot explain a single one of his ideas or admit a single one of his mistakes. What a buffoon; and you, a toad-licker. What will you do when the high of Bush's treason wears off, just like the high of DeLay and Frist's corrupt sell-off of the Congress to rightwing bidders? You will cling to your pretense that Gore and Kerry, both more hawkish than Clinton, could in anyone's wildest dreams have screwed the pooch as much as Bush-the-Vacationer, the man who chose to explain My Pet Goat to schoolkids while adults were jumping from the windows he left UNGUARDED.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:02:36 PM EST
    "Posted by Tim Z: "It was refered to as " "containment" not "confinement". The fear of the "domino" effect led the Presidents to support any regime that was not communist." A theory that was clearly NOT in evidence in Nixon/Kissinger, who instead had the idea that spreading the conflict, destabilizing Cambodia until the gov't fell, flattening and deforesting Laos, and threatening to start a nuclear war, would allow them to more effectively pillage the wealth of SE Asia and the world. Just had to tell the Big Lie to America...just like Nixon proteges like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, and the rest of the Nixon-lickers of the Big Lie Presidency of Bush the Lesser.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:33:53 PM EST
    Paul in LA, you are entirely too correct.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:25:31 PM EST
    Iran next, make no mistake. Perhaps Syria right after (or at the same time). There is simply no way the Neocons are going to pass up this opportunity, with 150,000 troops already right next door. They've been planning this for well over 30 years and they're going all the way babies, I can tell you that for free. So Bush and the Neocons lied their asses off about Saddam and 9/11 ... you're all splitting hairs here people, it's not about what they said, it's about what the American people BELIEVED based on what they said and I think we all pretty much know what the American people believed. Levin and the rest of the Democrats in Washington (I'm a Democrat, but not a pathetic one like them) have no one but themselves to blame because they were so eager not to look like pussies that they said stupid things and went along with Bush instead of standing their ground after 9/11 and saying "STOP!! EVERYONE COUNT TO TEN! Let's gather some facts before we start dropping bombs! These countries are not going anywhere!" But no, the plan, you see was already in place long before. Osama played his part on schedule and everything else has gone according to plan ever since. The American sheeple have reacted exactly as the Neocons knew they would. BTW - at last count, GW and his daddy are now responsible for WAY more Iraqi deaths than Saddam and his sons ever were. That's really something to think about. Our nation has at it's helm a man who preaches a "culture of life" yet is a mass murderer who executed hundreds as Governor and a hundred thousand as President, whilst refusing to attend a single (not even one!) military funeral. Crazy, huh?

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:31:56 PM EST
    TimZ`- I wish I was a junior, but alas, I am just another seasoned citizen. Probably more so than you. And yes, many people called CBS, the "Communist Broadcasting System," not a term of endearment. Cronkite was roundly derided for his erroneous call on the Tet Offensive, and is until this day. And I have never seen any proof of Kissinger telling North Vietnam to wait until after the election. You probably also believe Bush 1 had the Iranians hold off on releasing the hostages until after the election. And you think I am insane? I do apologize for giving you the "superior force bait." I could point out that I said we shouldn't, but your response was about what I expected. You might pause and consider though that if we had just continued heavy conventional bombing, and not stopped everytime North Vietnam made a fake move, the war probably could have been over, on our terms, in 1969-70. For that I do blame Nixon and Kissinger. As for the oil comment, well, for a moment there I thought you might bring something new to the table, but I can see you will not. PIL - The treatments failed. Proof follows. You wrote: "

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:32:50 PM EST
    ....sorry about that: "And ObL WALKED, which is what I was saying would not have happened under either the legally-elected President Gore, or the legally-elected President Kerry."

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 18, 2005 at 01:50:02 AM EST
    The continued non-responsive Jim, tsk-tsk. To review: 1) No military readiness on 911. 2) A president on vacation for a month, even though he received over 50 briefings warning of imminent danger. 3) No warnings to airlines. 4) Failing to respond to the actual initiation of what he was warned about, he sat on his hands for nearly an hour, putting school kids at risk, and leading to the death of 3,000 persons. Lack of adequate response by military unpunished. 5) Underdeployment in Afgh. allows the named terrorist behind 911 to escape. 2 years later, he's still active. Bush says he "hardly thinks about him." 6) Lied about state of evidence for invasion of Iraq. 7) Lied about costs, duration, course of deployment, and purposes of illegal invasion of Iraq. 8) Underdeployed, leading to massive looting of materiel, which is already showing up on the black market, as Bush's Wallmart of Terror. 9) Sloppy, racist occupation, with little planning, no heeding of previous planning, disregard for civilian life or the lives of reporters. 100,000+ civilians killed; Fallujah flattened as symbol of collective guilt. 10) Stole a second election. I've left out much, but Terri Schiavo and Michael Jackson, and O'Reilly having sex with a goat. You do the math, Jim. We're done counting the chips over where I live. That's facts in evidence, it's not my fault at all. So put your fingers to your ears, and repeat after me: 'la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la. There's a good poodle.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 18, 2005 at 08:05:01 AM EST
    PIL - Your paean of nonsense knows no end. I give you that. You are a virtual cornucopia of words and charges that are unrivaled in irrelevance beyond your fevered desire to rewrite history. But, as my coffee cools, I shall attempt again to educate you. And yes, I realize it is hopeless. 1. No military readiness on 9/11. So? What's your point? Was there any particular reason for military readiness? 2. Ah, the old vacation BS. You know, in a world that has information workers working at home, I again say, "So? What's your point?" Are you so dumb you don't realize that the President is plugged in 24/7? Heck, I bet they even have high speed internet access. 3. "No warning to airlines." That is a a demonstratable lie. "At the special meeting on July 5 were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken." Source So, try to understand this. Everyone was warned. The problem was, no one knew "where and when." 4. Failure to respond? Again, BS. All the systems responded. All the various groups did what they were supposed to do. Do you really think the President, in an emergancy, is supposed to put on his armour, mount his white horse and start "commanding?" PIL, the worst thing that could happen would be a President charging off in all directions. These type of charges are just BHAW BS. BTW - You condem Bush for not responding to the CIA warnings prior to 9/11. The above shows that you wrong. But tell me this. Why do you lie and condem him for not listening to the CIA prior to 9/11, and then condem him for believeing his intelligence organizations about Iraq? That doesn't make a lot of sense, you know, until you put it into the context of you just wanting to distort and attack, the truth be dam*ed. Well, my coffee is cool enough to drink, so I'll leave you to stew in your little world of hate and lies. Say hello for me to all your friends in the ward, and tell us the visiting hours. Not that I would visit, but at least I would know you are not in complete isolation.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 18, 2005 at 08:13:08 AM EST
    hey patrick join up it's the end of the world catillion the neo cons are only in it for the money and the power...and to lead sheep like you. wake up fool.. "they came for the gypsy's and i wasn't a gypsy so i said nothing, they came for the gays and i wasn't gay so i said nothing.." they WILL come for you one day..and there will be nobody to say anything.. as a christian i believe in a heaven and a hell. no matter how much money you have, there ain't no way to buy your way out of hell...the fires of hell don't scare me as much as having to spend an eternity with all those neo cons. and i ain't gonna call him mr president when i get there either.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 18, 2005 at 12:46:16 PM EST
    Paul - When PPj gets that uncivil and insulting, you know youve gotten him in the soft underbelly. BTW, Jim forgot to mention that you should read Gen.Giaps memoires - exact title and publisher withheld - to find out how the radical left was responsible for the carnage in Vietnam and our loss of the war.

    Re: Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:28:18 AM EST
    An interesting story from the wires. Seems to follow a pattern of willful deception, both direct and through omission, by this admin. "State Department Cuts Data from Terror Report" Mon Apr 18, 6:27 PM ET By Arshad Mohammed Reuters WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The State Department said on Monday it will stop releasing annual statistics on terrorism deaths after officials botched last year's count, leaving the intelligence community to publish and explain the data. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the National Counterterrorism Center, a newly created office responsible for compiling the statistics, would release them. It was unclear when this would happen. Critics suggested the State Department might be removing the data from its terrorism report because they could show a rise in attacks and deaths and raise questions about the Bush administration's claims to be winning the war on terrorism. Philip Zelikow, a top aide to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who advised her on whether to stop publishing the numbers, denied this and said he did not know what the recent data showed. "That wasn't the reason for the decision," said Zelikow, who was executive director of the commission that investigated the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. He argued that the NCTC should release the data because a law overhauling U.S. intelligence agencies last year gave it responsibility for compiling them. "If the numbers ultimately end up showing that the problem has gotten worse, then the administration will still have some questions to answer regardless of who puts out the numbers," he said. "One way or another I am sure the numbers are going to be made available to Congress." The State Department was fiercely criticized last year when it initially used faulty data compiled by the intelligence community in its 2003 "Patterns of Global Terrorism Report" to argue the United States was winning the war on terrorism. The government later revised the figures, saying the number of people killed and injured in terrorist attacks in 2003 was more than double what it had first reported. The CIA, which is handling media inquiries for the nascent NCTC, said no decisions had yet been made on what data it would provide. "Although no decisions have been made, the National Counterterrorism Center is looking closely to see precisely what data it can provide, with a methodology that is as strong and clearly understood as possible," said CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano. Former intelligence official Larry Johnson said in a Web log he believed the State Department was dropping the data because the 2004 statistics would show a sharp increase in the number of "significant" international terrorist attacks to at least 655 from about 172 in 2003. "For Secretary of State Rice these numbers are a disaster," Johnson wrote. "It is tough to argue we are winning the war on terrorism when the numbers in the official government report will show the largest number of incidents" since the State Department began reporting on such events. "The analogy is that we declare war on poverty and we stop producing the poverty statistics," said Princeton University Professor Alan Krueger, who co-wrote an opinion piece that helped unmask last year's wrong figures. Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record), a California Democrat who successfully lobbied the administration to review and revise the incorrect figures last year, blasted it for dropping them this year. "This is mind-boggling. Is the State Department relying on actual terrorism data for its report? If so, why hide this data? If not, what is the report based on?" he said in a statement. "The administration owes it to the American people to provide the facts -- not propaganda or political spin."

    Senator Releases Document Showing Lack of Iraq - al- Qaida Link | 57 comments (57 topical)