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Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Window

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:03:46 AM EST
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Caption, anyone?

Police say Esteban Carpio killed James Allen while being questioned at police headquarters Sunday and was injured in a failed escape attempt. But Carpio's family shrieked when he shuffled into a courtroom Monday for his arraignment with his hands and legs shackled.

"Oh, my God, look what they did to him!" somebody yelled. Carpio's mother and another woman were wrestled out of the courtroom as they screamed about police brutality.

Authorities said Carpio jumped out of a third-floor window, injuring his leg, arm and head, and was captured after a struggle a few blocks away. There was no indication that police used excessive force to subdue him, Police Chief Dean Esserman said.

"If (Carpio's relatives) have allegations, if they have concerns, we will not be deaf to that," Esserman said.

Good. Start the investigation, Chief. Now.

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    Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Window | 64 comments (64 topical)
    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:16:24 AM EST
    uh, slight omission; the young man suffered the injuries after murdering a police officer - might want to incorporate this tid bit of information in the text of the article if not in the headline itself?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:25:10 AM EST
    You might want to read the article it's in the first line and it probably should say alleged to have killed

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#3)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:26:05 AM EST
    Earl, That really shouldn't matter. If someone is a cop killer (Which there appears to be little doubt in this case, but he is still innocent eh T-Chris?) that is no excuse for brutality. TL, Start what investigation? I'ms ure the escape investigation is well under way as are the stabbing of the elderly woman and the shooting of the detective. What other investigation would you have them start? As for a caption, Robin Williams said it best, "Wow, Gravity, what a concept."

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:29:54 AM EST
    obviously this needs investigation. but there will never be "justice". when someone is killed, there never is. if this suspect is mentally ill, he might well have jumped out a window AND have been beaten by cops. sadly, i doubt we'll ever know the truth. a man is dead, families on both sides are ruined. there is no silver lining here if, say, all his injuries are attributed to brutality. because i seriously doubt the story of his shooting the cop is made up -- tho i could be wrong. and if someone shot my friend, child, whomever i cared about, and i caught him...wow, i really don't want to think about what i'd do to the guy. revenge is a powerful instinct that will never be completely overcome. if it were, we'd stop being fallible humans, and we all know that isn't possible. but investigate, please, let's try to find out some semblance of truth.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:40:58 AM EST
    Investigation into how the suspect got such severe facial injuries. Did the police lose it when they caught him and beat him to a pulp, or did he cause his own injuries when he fell? Earl: He's charged with murdering a detective which is clearly spelled out in the post. If you think that being charged with murdering a police officer authorizes cops to beat a suspect, then you are on the wrong site. We've heard your point of view and future comments to that effect will be restricted.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:50:30 AM EST
    TL, It seems the story is he hurt himself when he fell. If you have information other than that I would suggest you contact the R.I. Police. Would you rather police use valuable resources to conduct an investigation every time a prisoner injures him or herself? Oh wait I get it....You're insinuating that since the family thinks this was a beating, they must be right. Oh, well of course that makes sense now. DO we know whether or not the family could even have this information or was it an emotional reaction after seeing him for the first time....???

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:06:01 AM EST
    There must be an investigation He was in police custody --how did he get a gun? If for no other reason then making sure it doesn't happen again. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:11:11 AM EST
    Yeah, right, he fell on his face. Uhuh. What a crock. While it is likely that he killed the cop, it's not clear that he murdered the cop. My understanding was he was being "interrogated" when he grabbed the gun. But if the interrogation involved a beating, the shot might have been self-defense. If he shot first and then they beat the crap out of him, then the cops have given him an ideal defense.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:25:49 AM EST
    What really happened in that little room, is unknown, was the cop beating the hell out of this guy? and the guy was doing his best not to be beaten to death, or was the cop so nut's as to have a gun in that room?, what was happening in that room? lots of questions here.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:30:02 AM EST
    Patriot, Yes of course, but we can play the what-if game all day. Of course your statement, "What a crock" indicates you have more information that the rest of us. Please share it. There is no indication that the police were doing anything other than investgiating the stabbing of an elderly woman. Of course all cops lie, cheat, steal, beat offender, beat their wives, etc... I know all of this is gospel to some. Load, According to the article he took the gun from the detective who was questioning him. I would concur they should review their procedures for questioning suspect, but somehow I get the feeling that's not the type of investigation Talkleft is calling for.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:50:35 AM EST
    Last night on MSNBC they said there was a "struggle" before he even got to the police station. So he may have been beaten prior to even being taken into custody. Or, falling three floors out of a window might have given him the punkin head look.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#12)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:53:36 AM EST
    Had a friend who looked just like this after a head on collision, no beating there. Looks pretty good for a three-story fall. Patrick- You need some thicker skin if you are going to frequent a defense site. As a cop you are guilty until proven innocent. I expect much speculation about how the alleged shooting was defensive and he was tossed from the window.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:13:19 AM EST
    Of course all cops lie, cheat, steal, beat offender, beat their wives, etc...
    not "all", just an alarmingly high (and increasing) percentage.
    ...he was tossed from the window.
    hadn't speculated on that scenario! R.I., must be way behind the law enforcement curve, haven't seen a jail lately were the windows were not barred/caged, but i reside in "Texecution" and frequent CA,FL,IL.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#14)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:24:01 AM EST
    Outside, In your comment what consitutes "an alarmingly high (and increasing) percentage?" Since that is a subjective term and could mean different things to different people.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:35:28 AM EST
    I can understand a reaction which empathizes with a cop who lost control because a buddy was killed and who beats the suspect well beyond any reasonable means to subdue that suspect. I can understand it, and I empathize with that cop as well, but at the same I aver that justice must be done and that cop is no less guilty (presumably, all caveats do apply) of a crime and justice demands that he be no less in the eyes of the law than any one of us. As for those who express sentiments along the lines of that suspect got what was coming, etc., I would warn that you are in danger of leaving the rational, ethical, moral human community. What difference is there, then between the sides, as sides they must become? What I wish to emphasize above all is the posing of a question. What ever happened to professionalism? To professional values and codes of conduct and the honor that accrues by struggling against the easy and all too human to better abide by those professional codes of conduct which are nothing other than the representation of the highest values of our society? When a cop, even one who has lost his best friend and colleague in the line of duty, no, especially when something such as that happens, and he struggles against his or her baser, irrational, emotional nature to adhere to what he or she has always held to be the highest, I ask, is that struggle, that achievement, not a ever-replenishing spring of pride and honor and satisfaction and fulfillment? These by the way, are the true conservative traditional values. It's bizarre that I, a far left anarchist should have to point them out. And I must say that when these values are embodied and practiced and struggled for, I find it a wonderful thing and worthy of respect and admiration. This struggle is a far more difficult path than giving in to the lowest in ourselves. And it is a path that is ennobling in itself and whose goal is truly worthy of the highest.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    Wow, ex post facto spell-checking on this site. I was puzzled as to why my correction didn't show up when I returned to reload the page. Thanks TL, that was sweet. (BTW, I won't mind at all if you excise this post.)

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 12:24:49 PM EST
    If we are required to the prisoner in NOTguilty until prooven Guilty. I think it behooves us to give the same assumption to the Cops. But remember to "Trust but verify"

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 12:51:40 PM EST
    An interview with the hysterical aunt of the defendent I saw last night had her saying that she tried to see her nephew in the hospital, after he jumped out the window, and was told that all he had was a lacerated leg. She seemed to draw the conclusion that the facial injuries happened later...

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:07:54 PM EST
    I saw this story when it first developed, and I believe it told of an "R.I. Officer kill with his own gun...suspect escaped..." I remember thinking that when they caught him, the would probably beat him to within an inch of his life. Not saying the story is exactly how the cops said it was...but if they guy did shoot this cop and try to flee, he deserved what he got. If the cop was beating him, they deserve what they get. In earl's defense, this topic does omit the fact that a cop was killed. You have to click another link just to read that. Shame, shame.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#20)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    Caption? "If he mentions fava beans and chianti one more time, I f***in' quit."

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:17:29 PM EST
    Ern the only reason to mention that He Killed a cop would be to, by inference suggest the beating was justified or Understandable. Whether he killed a cop has no bearing in law on the charge of brutality.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#22)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:24:20 PM EST
    I'll back a good cop any time, anywhere. But I won't tolerate a bad one. With all the power they have, their resistance to corruption must be as exceptional as their bravery. Corruption of that kind of power should be punished severely. And IMHO I have no idea what happened but it should be thoroughly investigated.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:36:22 PM EST
    Or how about mention that a cop was killed because...it's part of the story!? No? Whether people think it's justified, understandable, unbelievable, etc, makes no difference. Facts are facts.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:42:50 PM EST
    i wasn't saying that killing a cop authorizes anything. i was simply saying that, in cases as extreme as this on both sides, where murder and mental illness seem to have met, there will never be genuine justice. there never is when lives are taken and many others are ruined, including those of the accused and his family. perhaps this is another abner louima, i don't know, but i agree a full investigation should be carried out to determine, as best can be, the truth.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:44:35 PM EST
    last post addressed to TL, if TL was talking to me in the second post on this thread. who's on first?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 01:45:36 PM EST
    "...what consitutes "an alarmingly high (and increasing) percentage?"
    law enforcement is one of those jobs were .001% of anything listed (lie, cheat, steal, beat offender, beat their wives) is unacceptable and cause for alarm and constitutes "an alarmingly high percentage". ?how many times has the phrase "a few bad apples" been used when addressing police misconduct? that is always the retort, but the increasing number of complaints (nationally) against officers suggest a more troubling trend, flagrant disregard for the laws they swore to uphold. also at an "alarmingly high percentage" is law enforcements rate of alcoholism, divorce, mental breakdowns and suicide, as compared to the general population. no doubt the job is becoming more tougher and "an alarmingly high (and increasing) percentage" of officers are folding under the stress. no need to repeat re: Barry Freed at April 19, 2005 12:29 PM

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 02:21:07 PM EST
    OTOH: His HEAD looks fine. His FACE looks like S**t.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 02:40:02 PM EST
    A caption? No doubt something that starts with "Yes, Clarisse. A chianta would go very well with...."

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 03:25:02 PM EST
    oops, sorry, TL, missed that bit where your original comment was meant for "Earl".

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    Let's see. The evidence the cops did anything wrong is...thin at best. The evidence the perp actually killed the cop is heavy-duty. Verdict: The cop got what was coming to him for having the gun or beating the guy or being a cop or something. Anyway, the other cops are guilty as hell The elderly lady the perp stabbed doesn't count. The perp ranges from "alleged" to "innocent". Must be the TL folks.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#31)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:15:49 PM EST
    Outside, Based on your definitions, I agree with your statement. that is always the retort, but the increasing number of complaints (nationally) against officers suggest a more troubling trend, flagrant disregard for the laws they swore to uphold. Question, do you consider this thread a complaint indicative of a troubling trend? I see it as a premature indictment. If there was brutality, and I do not stipulate that this is the case, then let someone come forward with knowledge of the complaint and report it. With the coverage this is getting (According to what I've read here) this guy will have ample venue to voice his complaint and it will not be swept under the carpet. But I disagree with initiating an investigation based on the emotional outburst of a family member. You'd never be able to do anything else but investigate other officers, and you'd use all resources doing that.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#32)
    by Lindsay on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:28:28 PM EST
    Seems to me that if someone fell three floors, they would have died or had multiple fractures.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:19:25 PM EST
    Why didn't the judge ask him what happened to him?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:43:05 PM EST
    I am not sure his jaw is working enough yet for him to answer questions, Sailor. Sounds like he got outside the building before he was recaptured. Are there no witnesses to the recapture? Was he taken directly to the ER after recapture? No matter how you want to look at it, it does appear that somehow the policeman who was killed made at least one serious mistake, if not more. So, Patrick, do you do interrogations? Alone? Take your weapon in with you?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:41:49 PM EST
    A couple more questions, Patrick: Do you think that the public has any reason to fear that a perp suspected of killing a policeman might be subject to excessive force? Do you think police have ever beaten or killed a cop-killer suspect when less force could have been used to make an arrest? Any unwritten code that you have ever heard about cop-killers?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#36)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 08:15:55 PM EST
    Conscious. Correct me here. Do your questions presume particular answers? If so, do those answers function as evidence that the cops did as you seem to think they did?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:52:36 PM EST
    No presumptions, just asking for Patrick to give answers. He's an insider in this matter, he has special knowledge. I think he knows the answers. The answers if given mean nothing with regard to this incident. We will have to wait to see if details emerge that can be confirmed to shed light on this particular incident. Family says the guy was mentally ill, that they tried everything to get him help prior to the arrest. That much should be subject to confirmation easily. Let's take it one step at a time, shall we?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimcee on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:28:14 PM EST
    Let's see, I wrestle away a cop's gun and kill him, then throw myself out of a third story window and land on my face and I show up in court looking as if I had jumped off from three stories up and some dopey defense att'y suggested that it was the cops that injured him....and his loving, nurturing family makes overatures to a pliable press as well as liability att'ys as what a sweet guy he is..... TL, I understand that you are a defence lawyer but really even you must have a conscious. Afterall no one seems more innocent than this piece o'sh*t, eh? Is this really the hill you want to die on? Or is hyperbole more important than justice?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#39)
    by Kitt on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:56:42 PM EST
    Jimcee: I think that's conscience; I think TL is conscious.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#40)
    by chupetin on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:57:46 PM EST
    Excellent post Barry Freed, we all would like to feel respect and even pride when we look at a cop, sort of how we feel when we look at military personel. They are not allowing me to look at them in this way. A profesional manner sure would help.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:11:22 AM EST
    Question, do you consider this thread a complaint indicative of a troubling trend? I see it as a premature indictment.
    this thread goes to the point of Barry F's comment; the public (particularly left minded citizens) have lost confidence/trust in law enforcement, so naturally their presumptions would be "guilty until proven innocent" (agreed premature), while echoing the frustration the regular citizen feels in dealing with law enforcement (right or wrong were helpless), that is a "troubling trend". when an incident like this occurs only one things certain: errors, mistakes and bad decisions/judgements were made by all participants.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#42)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:00:25 AM EST
    Barry, You asked, What ever happened to professionalism? To professional values and codes of conduct and the honor that accrues by struggling against the easy and all too human to better abide by those professional codes of conduct which are nothing other than the representation of the highest values of our society? Prefessionalism, honor, values, the code of conduct are all still alive and well in the law enforcement community. They are the fundamental concepts under which we operate. To come to a place like this to get your information how the public views law enforcement as a whole is a disservice. It's like watching TV or movies to learn hw to be a cop. That does not mean I believe the image of law enforcement is untarnished, just not to the degree that some here might wish it to be. The ideas and concepts which you have addressed do not lend themselves well to the brief written word on some web-site, and I do not claim I can adaquately address them in this environment. My point being that a law enforcement officer doing his/her job with professionalism and honor is not news and will not usually be made public. In fact, I submit, if the day comes when that does become news, we are all in trouble. Concious Angel,
    So, Patrick, do you do interrogations? Alone? Take your weapon in with you?
    Not regularly but sometimes, Depends on what you mean by alone, there is always someone at least watching a video montior which is recording, of course that's only when we're interviewing people under controlled circumstances, I've interviewed people in the field, in hospitals, in the back of an ambulance and many other places that complicate it, and lastly yes I do. To your other questions, No, quite possibly and no. Your questions are loaded and we've had these discussions many times in the past. You do not seem open to reasonable debate on this issue, but I don't want you, or anyone reading these threads, to think that by ignoring you I am giving any credibility to your arguments.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#43)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:51:58 AM EST
    “the public (particularly left minded citizens) have lost confidence/trust in law enforcement, so naturally their presumptions would be "guilty until proven innocent"” This may be your perception but it is far from the true state of public confidence. The UN publishes an international crime victims survey every few years in which they ask victims of crime throughout the world, among other things, about their perception of police competency and corruption. Police in the United States consistently scores as well and often much better than other western nations. Canadians, for example, report crime less often to their police and more frequently perceive them as corrupt as compared to US attitudes.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:46:33 PM EST
    Patrick said: "But I disagree with initiating an investigation based on the emotional outburst of a family member. You'd never be able to do anything else but investigate other officers, and you'd use all resources doing that." Well, I am not a family member. Rather, I am a former federal prosecutor who has worked with law enforcement officers and I have eyes, ears and a brain. Even I believe based on the way the suspect looked in court (puffy/blackened eyes in particular) combined with the fact that he is suspected of killing a cop as well as the chief's comments about a "struggle" there should be an investigation into police action. This would include the period the suspect was being questioned, the "struggle" and following arrest. If officers are truly anti-crime, officers should be pro-investigation of a suspected crime. No officer believes that he/she needs "probable cause" to initiate any other type of investigation. The law allows that of course. Heck, officers "investigate" on the basis of a "suspicious" manner of walking. A waste of "resources" is the time that an officer spends giving "the beat down" to a suspect. [And yes, Carpio is a "suspect" just like that Brooklyn officer was a "suspect" until he finally pled guilty (in the middle of a resource-draining trial) to abusing Abner Louima with a plunger.]

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#45)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:11:27 PM EST
    Right, Jennifer, about Carpio. But are the cops suspects or are they fascist brutes who haven't yet gotten what they richly deserve?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#46)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:23:20 PM EST
    You must have been one helluva federal prosecutor, did you tell fortunes too or were you only able to devine things about cops?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:13:12 PM EST
    I don't believe anyone can "devine things about cops" -- including that they are being anymore truthful or are more trustworthy or law-abiding than anyone else. [Yes, I prosecuted public corruption cases] So believing an investigation is needed based on suspicion (in this case reasonable suspicion) is "devining?" Interesting. Is then "devining" what law enforcement officers do everyday [when they are not wasting resources, that is]? So from family member to "deviner" -- it appears that "blue line" is bright indeed.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#48)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:03:22 PM EST
    Please tell me what is reasonable about your suspicion? I can't wait to hear it. Do you have one fact, one, that indicates this guy was the victim of police brutality and not the victim of his own actions? If you do then you have more information than the rest of us. Without a complaint (either from a victim, witness, other officer, anyone) then there is no need for an IA.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:35:36 PM EST
    Fact one: I find the stitches in the facial area and the eyes swollen almost to closing to be consistent with being beaten. True enough that it would be possible to sustain those kind of injuries in a three story fall, but I find it more likely to sustain foot, leg, arm and hand injuries in such a fall. I think there is a fairly natural and universal impulse to wrap the arms up around the head and face in such a fall to prevent precisely the kind of injuries this picture shows. The mechanics of sitting in a driver seat and hitting the dash, steering wheel, windshield with your face are easier to understand given the proximity and aspect of face to windshield, plus the limited amount of time a person in car accident has to protect their face in an accident. So that for me would be fact one. The nature of the injuries to the face suggests a beating. Sorry you had to wait this long to hear it. I hope there is videotape of the interrogation. Want to place any bets on that one?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:35:15 AM EST
    Can't wait to hear? In my first post, I stated three bases for suspicion, but I will spell it out a bit more -- 1) the injuries (which I agree with Conscious Angel are less consistent with a fall [I had a narc defendant jump out of a window of at least 3 stories with a severely broken leg as a result, no facial injuries], 2)that he is suspected of killing a cop (which tends to make cops upset) and 3) that the chief said there was a "struggle" which does not always accompany an arrest and you'd think if he'd sustained the injuries via the window/fall he'd have less fight in him by the time of the arrest. Combined, to me, they create reasonable suspicion for investigation. IA procedure notwithstanding, criminal procedure is such that investigation precedes complaint, arrest, trial and conviction or aquittal. An IA investigation may or may not happen or can be illusory -- ie. that pesky blue line again can make it difficult for "insiders" to get the cooperation they need to investigate. Luckily, criminal and civil rights charges can be investigated by independent sources -- US Atty's office or DA and federal law enforcement. It's called checks and balances. No complainant necessary either; just a prosecutor and/or investigator [who typically is not blind to the reasonable suspicion of officers' actions] It is telling that perhaps the only suspicious activity that officers are not gung ho to investigate is another officer's actions. It hits too close to home perhaps. It is clear from some of the comments that policing the police is necessary because the brightness of the blue line obviously blinds officers -- blinds them to factors that create reasonable suspicion of a fellow officer. Public confidence in law enforcement could be heightened if officers stop arguing against the investigation of suspected abuse cases. After all, investigating is what they do, right? By the way, if you are arguing for a heightened standard for suspicion, don't because you risk losing the ability to investigate the crimes you currently do. Let's see what is suspicious activity he was "walking furtively" "in a neighborhood known for drug trafficking", "a bulge in his jacket," "looking around" "appeared uneasy/nervous." If there is any information that I have that some do not, it is that the level of suspicion necessary to start an investigation is not the heightened standard cops want it to be -- in cop cases, that is.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:13:12 AM EST
    Patrick and Richard Aubrey, you are both just lacking the basic modicum of human empathy and understanding of the world around you needed to participate in civilization at the most basic level. Perhaps this can shed some light on the dilemna here. A close relative (maybe the mom) said after court in an interview that her son was mentally ill and that she had tried and tried to get help but no one gave a rat's ass about this kid until he offed an old lady. Although I don't know if this is true or what the form of mental illness is, basic common sense tells me that a young, scared, not-quite-right kid may not respond to "traditional" interrogation methods in a way conducive to the investigation. What I do know is that the cops didn't give a rat's ass about this either. Regardless of the mental state of the prisoner, are there no procedures in place to make sure that a stupid kid couldn't grab a gun in an interrogation room? If these weren't followed, given that mental pressure is put on suspects in custody, isn't it pretty much de facto that opportunity would turn into action at some point? Policing produces a natural hubris of sorts that leads inevitably to consolidation and eventual abuse of power. It isn't the fault of individual cops but the responsibility of the state and its citizens to impose standards and discipline - to check and balance unfettered power. I, therefore, put more responsibility on the police as representatives of the state to act legally and responsibly than I do to a f**ked up kid whose life has been flushed down the toilet. I blame the state. That means us. This kid could have had a better life and be paying into the system, not getting supported by it. Could we have taught him to read better? Maybe meds or a half-way house? We could have saved this kid. Not your job? Well you're going to be paying $25 or $30K for him yearly for a long time. Look at him now. His ugly battered face is the face of our justice system. of our morality and our hypocrisy. It doesn't have to be like this.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:33:44 AM EST
    Wow, my first time to this site and it is full of idiots! Iv'e been reading some of the responses and they are full of stupidity. Like "He was thrown through the window" The window was 3" plexiglass. He had to shoot through it to break it. Second of all I want everyone here to understand something. He shot a cop twice in the police station and escaped. The police were thinking he was armed, he just killed one of their friends! It's amazing they didn't all empty their clips into Carpio on site! Carpio is lucky to be alive!!!

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:34:12 AM EST
    If you google Esteban Carpio you will find several articles with detail about the attempts that he, his girlfriend, and his family made to access mental health care, hospitalization. The details are sufficient to convince me that he was apparently having some kind of nervous breakdown in weeks prior to the event in question. I think that no reasonable person would review those details and conclude that this guy was not in some kind of severe distress that included a significant amount of paranoia. Then he gets picked up for questioning, probably with good cause on the stabbing crime, handcuffed and taken to a police station. They take the handcuffs off, several officers leave so that Carpio and Det. Allen are all alone. Next that we know, Allen is dead, Carpio is out the window. There is more, but if RA and Patrick want to be patient and wait for the details to become known, I think it is going to be clear that this guy took a terrific beating on recapture. RA, Patrick - you want to stick your neck out and predict that such is not the case? It's amazing that the obvious is often not immediately apparent to some folks.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:47:22 AM EST
    Dan, this thread is typical of some but not all of our TL discussions. Have faith if you actually want dialog. However, introducing yourself with statements such as
    It's amazing they didn't all empty their clips into Carpio on site! Carpio is lucky to be alive!!!
    Doesn't bode well for you as this is TalkLeft, not TalkLawEnforcement. He is lucky to be alive - however, that doesn't bode well for our system of justice, which this site more committed to than a few pissed off cops. It is indicative of the (albeit necessarily so)brothers-in-arms mentality of police that you won't find any cops out there saying so without being reviled as "traitors to the badge." Being paranoid won't get this kid off. Being pissed off shouldn't get the cop off.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:08:56 AM EST
    Mfox: Thank you for your reply. I want to make one thing clear. I didn't say they should of "emptied their clips" I said I'm surprised they didn't. Providence is a very tight nit community when it comes to their police and Fireman. I'm just surprised it didn't. On the other hand, when I say Esteban's face I was horrified! They are trying to say he suffered those injuries from the jump out the window. First of all he would have had to land on his face that would have broken his neck and there would have been no chase, the window he jumped from was over grass, there is now way he sustained anywhere near those injuries from that height! As I mentioned before the Providence police are a tight nit group. They are also very corrupt! Just look at the Mayor evebn he is in Jail. I wish Johnny Cocran was still alive...........he'd have a field day with this!!!

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:10:37 AM EST
    Thanks for joining the party, Dan. I think we were one idiot short before you arrived. Welcome.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#57)
    by Kitt on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:11:34 AM EST
    "Patrick and Richard Aubrey, you are both just lacking the basic modicum of human empathy and understanding of the world around you needed to participate in civilization at the most basic level."
    mfox: Yeow! Good call. Unless he fell on his face, which is evident that he did not - no abrasions consistent with such - it seems pretty damned obvious his face was sucker punched several times. I'm surprised he survived a three-story jump/fall without fracturing anything.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:14:55 AM EST
    Dan, I am in agreement with you that there is little or no reason to believe that he was thrown out the window. I think the facts as stated - he shot out the window, then jumped - will stand up to scrutiny. Many of us here are committed to the rule of law and due process. Violation of basic civil rights, lawbreaking by the law enforcement comunity, miscarriages of justice in the courtroom are all taken very seriously by many of us. Welcome, again.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#59)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:19:10 AM EST
    Fact one: I find the stitches in the facial area and the eyes swollen almost to closing to be consistent with being beaten.
    The fact is he's injured, the rest is your opinion of how that injury occurred. Jennifer, Fact, I can infer from your post the reason you are a former prosecutor, you don't know a fact from an opinion. Nice try. My posts were not about federal criminal or civil rights investgiations of the incident, if they want to, go ahead, wanna bet there's nothing there? I'll give you a hint, the odds are in my favor, not because of the thin blue line, but because it's more likely the guy injured himself being an idiot or because of his mental illness. Angel, Sure I'll bet you, how much and are you good for it?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:00:41 AM EST
    That should have been tell the difference between a fact and an inference.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:26:53 AM EST
    Patrick -- Reasonable suspicion is based on perceivable facts and the assumptions that can be drawn from those facts. Reasonableness is subjective not objective. I don't think it takes a law degree to understand that but perhaps. As for the type of investigation you were speaking of, please read your own post which asks: "Start what investigation? I'ms ure the escape investigation is well under way as are the stabbing of the elderly woman and the shooting of the detective. What other investigation would you have them start?" Perhaps now you know some of the other investigations? Also, if nothing is discovered in the non-Internal Affairs investigation --GREAT and guess what, another entity has wasted their "resources" not the cops. Wouldn't that be helpful to law enforcements' image? And at no charge? It would be smart to think so, Patrick. Whatever is or isn't taught at the academy, know that an investigation does not presuppose the outcome. Calling for an investigation is not an indictment (literally or figuratively) of the cops involved,so relax -- hey no harm, no foul. Also your attempted personal attack is in error. I'm a former prosecutor because, like others, I accepted a more lucrative job. Also, I sensed that in the private sector, I would not feel like an Honor student working on an Honors class project with a visiting Special Ed student. Turned out to be true.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:30:53 AM EST
    I am curious to know what you all think will happen here? I beleive that if he has a good lawyer that Esteban may never truly see a day in real jail. He will be declared "insane" and head off to some mental hospital. Obviously no one knows all the facts and there are a million questions to be answered. Just curious to see what your hypothesis may be.

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#63)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:25:40 PM EST
    Jennifer, Your talking about a federal investigation, my statement, in which I stated "....have THEM start", refers to the R.I. Police. Nothing you have said changes my points or invalidates them. I've said in other threads here the same things you have. If the feds think there's something there, go right ahead and jump in, but don't expect my agency to waste resources investigating a non-crime. The feds waste money left and right...I can't control that. Unlike many here, my default position is still that the cops are telling the truth. Seems like that's a bit different from yours, and I wonder why. How many cops have you prosecuted and convicted? Any? Are your assumptions based on facts and personal observations or just your perception based on someone else's?

    Re: Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Win (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:11:23 PM EST
    Sure, I am good for it, Patrick. Loser has to admit he was wrong about it right here in the real cyber world. Admitting when we are wrong is good for us. Builds character.

    Police: R.I. Suspect Fell From Third Story Window | 64 comments (64 topical)