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Former Republican Representatives Criticize House For Protecting DeLay

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:13:18 AM EST
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by TChris

As Tom DeLay's Republican colleagues wonder whether they can muster the courage to stand up to DeLay before he destroys their party, some former House Republicans are making their views known. Ten former representatives sent this letter to Speaker Dennis Hastert last week, expressing their "grave concern" about the decision to change the rules of the House ethics committee so that a party-line vote can protect representatives from investigation of their ethical violations.

We saw it as an obvious action to protect Majority Leader Tom DeLay who had been admonished three times by the Ethics Committee for well-publicized misuse of money and/or power.

We felt even greater concern when the leadership then fired Chairman Joel Hefley and two other members of the Committee, replacing them with Members who had either given to or received funds from Mr. DeLay.

One of the signers, former GOP congressman Caldwell Butler, explains why he felt compelled, albeit reluctantly, to criticize Republican leadership in the House:

"I feel strongly about it because I think it's embarrassing to the party and should be addressed by the party," Butler said Friday in a telephone interview. "It's just the wrong thing to do," Butler said. "If the ethics committee can't be free of partisan commitment, then you can be in big trouble."

Can be? The ethics committee is in big trouble. It can't function so long as it pursues its single-minded goal of protecting DeLay.

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    Former Republican Representatives Criticize House For Protecting DeLay | 59 comments (59 topical)
    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:46:28 AM EST
    This quote from the link says it all: "He said several of his contemporaries who signed the letter were part of a loose association of moderate Republicans known as "the Wednesday group." These were/are, basically, RINO's. After this, they should go ahead and change their party to Demo, not that the Demos will help them either.;

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#2)
    by TChris on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:54:18 AM EST
    Right, PPJ, there's no room for moderation in the Republican party these days.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#3)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:54:42 AM EST
    PPJ is right, though for reasons he doesn't appear to grasp, that a moderate thinker today cannot belong to the GOP, though people like McCain, Hagel, and Snow have proven that such make excellent tools. People, once you've called George Bush, Rick Santorum, Tom Delay and Bill Frist 'centrists,' there's no turning back. It's hard line or the highway.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 10:26:12 AM EST
    ..but a social liberal.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 10:56:26 AM EST
    ricky1756 - You may kiss same. Please slant your pucker to the right. TChris and Glanton - Can you tell me why you never see a Democrat described as "moderate?" Are there none? This description is always reserved for a Republican that is agreeing with a Democrat. Said Democrat is never designated as anything, but "Democrat." This is a not so subtle indication that the writer, usually a MSM reporter of some type, has a bias against Republicans. Why? Because if the "moderate" Repub is agreeing with the Demo, then the other Repubs must be immoderate.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#6)
    by marty on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 11:10:45 AM EST
    name calling comment deleted. Commenter warned.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#8)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 11:16:08 AM EST
    Just a few of Democrats many of us have consistently described, and fairly so, as moderates, though they obviously have important differences among them: Bill and Hillary Clinton Tom Vilsak Joe Leiberman Bill Richardson Mike Easley Jennifer Granholm Max Cleland Etc. Etc. Etc. Try again

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 11:36:23 AM EST
    PPJ - No, there are none. And the "MSM" is a radical- leftist front.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 11:46:03 AM EST
    Delay a guy for Bush/Laden in 2008.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#11)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 11:50:38 AM EST
    Kerry, too, has often been described as a moderate thinker, and rightfully so. I will give you an example of why the label applies to him. Clearly he is torn on the issue of abortion and tries to maintain a balance between his own religious convictions on the one hand, and his respect for privacy and bodily autonomy on the other. In the townhall style debate with Dubya, the Pres suggested a federal law requiring parental consent to minors getting abortions. Kerry's response? What about the girl who has been impregnated by her father?, he asked. Bush had no response. His views are so fixed that even when confronted with factual evidence to the contrary, he will not swerve; some call this consistency and admire it, but are flat-earthers admirable? The ability to see contigencies, the possession of a facile mind, the willingness to weigh coinflicting factors and viewpoints against the impulse to pass sweeping demagogic infringements into law is a mark of moderation. And Kerry, for all his warts, would have made a fine President. Plus, he's literate.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 12:11:58 PM EST
    Or, alas, he's literate. Up until the McCarthy era the term "leftist" was generally reserved for self-designated anarchists,socialists,and communists, but in age of media dependency, capital-unfriendly insights and ideas have been almost completely marginalized, and the Kerrys are called "radicals" by the very same mindset that villified FDR. And the MSM is pinko.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 12:21:55 PM EST
    glanton - I can't remember a news article that described a Democrat as a "moderate." If you can find one, please link it so I can place it in my collection of rare and unusual things. ;-) I would guess you can find blog/comments that describe some on the list as "moderates," as opposed to the more radical of your idols. And, I find it difficult to find the more leftward Demos agreeing with anything that the Repubs have brought forward. As examples I give you Rx benefits for seniors, something I would have thought would have had bi-partisan support, and Social Security reform, which was (rightfully)described as broken and needing to be fixed by Clinton. BTW - In case you don't watch a MSM source, Demo Senator Reid has declared that the Demos will oppose everything the Repubs bring forward.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#14)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 12:30:07 PM EST
    PPJ: That's what happens when all you read for news is NewsMax and Drudge, and your television source is FOX. In truth Clinton, for one, was always represented by the media as a centrist because--SURPRISE---his policies and rhetoric were almost always centrist! But avast! This is neither here nor there. What we might more fritufully discuss is whether these people are actually moderate, what it means to be moderate, rather than simply arguing about media spin--we'll get nowhere with that. In the spirit of productive discourse on line, and in the name of North Carolina's first National Championship in 12 years, I have given you an incontrovertible example of Kerry's status as a moderate, and could do same with each of the Deomcratic politicos I have named, and many others.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 12:50:47 PM EST
    Glanton, re your comments on Kerry that he would have been a fine President - THANK YOU!!! There isn't a day that goes by that people can't wonder how much better off the US would be today if Bush had not been re-elected. So many lives lost because of a war that one petty man was determined to go forth with, so many families destroyed, so much hate and narrow-mindedness from people who claim to be Christian but are just the opposite, so many lies, lies, lies and greed, and disrepect for the environment. His record in Texas should have been fair warning.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 01:09:20 PM EST
    glanton - National Championship? Did Barney Fife win the checkers championship? ;-) And you state the problem beautifully. Clinton was described as centrist when Bush is described as conservative, when neither are as described. But returning to my point, why do you never hear a Demo described as a moderate? And why is it always a "moderate" Repub that is agreeing with the Demo? The implication is obvious. And incorrect. And biased.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 01:18:00 PM EST
    PPJ, I hear Democrats referred to as moderates all the time. Perhaps you should leave the echo chamber once in a while.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 01:21:42 PM EST
    PPJ: Why do you insist on debating how these people are represented, when evidence can be marshalled all day long and nothing proven? Isn't it more productive to talk about what we, the people talking now online, mean when we say 'moderate'? I don't really care how the medie represent Dubya, to be honest, though I'd say overall my feeling is he's gotten a pretty easy ride and his extremism has been largely ignored. Again, I hold to my Kerry/Bush anecdote as an example of moderation versus extremism. With Clinton, there's no way you can honestly put him out there as a radical, not unless you want to look stupid. Dubya on the other hand is very easily shown to be an extremist, one only has to look at the laws he has signed, his cavalier attitude towards war and towards his own errors in judgment, the policies he has pushed, the rhetoric he uses daily. And BTW: Given that the people I listed all qualify as moderates, with Harry Reid among them; given that, and added to the fact that those running the GOP are indeed very much extremists, why should Reid, as a moderate, not be bent on stopping these droollers from achieving their rapacious agenda? When a moderate seeks to halt a rabid ideologue, that doesn't make him anything other than a sensible man.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 02:14:24 PM EST
    Randy Paul - Take time to read the thread and see the context. glanton - When you call Kerry, moderate, that means any "moderate" Repub who agrees with him is a far Leftie.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 02:14:52 PM EST
    That's me.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 02:36:13 PM EST
    Quips, soundbites, substanceless to the last drop, thou legendary blogger! I admit that half of me thought you'd actually address what I'd written.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 02:40:52 PM EST
    PPJ, I read the thread. I stand by what I said. I hear the term moderate Democrat being used all the time. Are you so intellectually lazy that you cannot do basic research? Must I do yours for you? Apparently so. It's called Google News. Try using it before making sweeping generalizations that the intellectually curious among us are duty bound to disprove. With you PPJ, it's like shooting fish in a barrel sometimes. BTW, the news portion of the search is very limited in terms of it's time frame. This link covers a period of about 30 days.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#23)
    by Rick B on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 03:01:55 PM EST
    PPJ, face facts. The current Republican Party ~is~ a party of extremists led by DeLay and Bush, both of whom are Dominionists out to destroy the American Rule of Law under the Constitution. They are supported by people like their lackey, Frist, who is kissing up to Dobson and the rest of the Xtian right in hopes of getting the nomination for the President in 2008. The Xtian extremists have done a reasonably complete job of taking over the Republican Party, and the moderate office-holders don't dare say anything for fear of having some extremist run against them in the next primary as their funds get cut off. America is getting close to having a Democratic American Constitutional Rule-of-Law Party opposed by a Republican right-wing Xtian fundamentalist Party that wants to install the rule of Biblical old testament law and install their theocratic government. The so-called moderate Republicans are the few elected Republicans who still believe in the Constitution and the Rule of Law. PPJ, if you aren't one of the theocrats, then your "allies" are using you, and if they take over th egovernment completely, you will either "find Jesus" to their satisfaction or be treated as they want to treat heretics. Just remember, they consider Roman Catholics, Methodists, Moderate Baptists and most Presbyterians to be heretics. Go ahead and play your word games with whether the SCLM considers the Republicans to be extremistrs or not. The leadership clearly are extremists, and the rest of the Republican Party has been hijacked.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 03:02:33 PM EST
    Its not that there isn't any room for moderates in the GOP. There just isn't any room for anyone with ethics.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#25)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 03:29:31 PM EST
    Randy Paul's common-sense link reveals many things, one of my favorite being the fact that in 2006, moderate Democrat Robert Casey will rid the Senate of that deadly disease known as Santorum Syndrome. Maybe when he loses he can go be President of Bob Jones University.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 03:57:52 PM EST
    Too bad TChris failed to mention that the letter was actually written by the Public Campaign Action Fund, a group that has been working to get rid off Tom DeLay for months. I'd like to know how many individuals wered contacted by the Public Campaign Action Fund and refused to sign the letter. Why should this be a secret?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 07:25:54 PM EST
    Randy Paul - Well, I hit the link you provided. It showed about 106 hits for "moderate Democrat." Of the 106, about 10 were discrete, the others just multiple listenings of the same AP story showing up in various newspapers. Of the more interesting variety, I found Dianne Fienstien and Hillary Clinton described as "moderates." The chuckle I got from that was almost worth the effort. So, I'll give the point to you. From time to time, some MSM media call some Demos moderate, even if some of them are not. As for you snarky remark, remember to be nice on your way up, you'll meet the same people on the way down. BTW - This is only about the second point I have given up in about two years. So enjoy. Soldier - Good'un. glanton - The problem is, you want to debate based on your definition of the word moderate. Would a moderate Repub be pro choice, pro gun control, pro gay marriage, anti-war... Would a moderate Demo be anti abortion, anti gun control anti gay marriage, pro-war.. In both cases the two represent positions that are not accepted by the majority of their party. So is "moderate," like beauty, in the eye of the beholder?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 07:51:17 PM EST
    The thread is about Tom DeLay, right? Jim's good buddy. You may do all the thread hijackng you want, this guy is on your team, live with it. I think he's a social liberal also!

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#29)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 08:01:51 PM EST
    "The problem is, you want to debate based on your definition of the word moderate." No, PPJ, you've missed it entirely. I have offered examples of what I consider moderation to be. I can offer others but I don't really see the point, inasmuch as you rarely acknowledge the actual points I make, anyway. Maybe you just don't think I'm making any points. Fair enough. In that case, too, I'll hold off on other examples unless asked for them. If you disagree with anythign I've actually said, or want to offer counterexamples, have at it. Wouldn't that be better than dickering over what media outlet said what about whom? For instance, you could tell us all, with supporting evidence, why Hillary Clinton ought to be considered a hard-leftist and not a moderate Dem?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 08:21:02 PM EST
    You are letting Jim hijack the thread. The story is about moderate republicans expressing concern about what DeLay is doing to the Republicans, ethics and the ethics committee. As DeLay, Frist and Dubya pull the grand old party farther and farther to the right and turn it into an American Taliban, more and more republicans become rinos. They may actually have to hold their noses at some point and switch to democratic party. I understand how painful that might be, but if they have the social liberal tendencies of most rinos, we will make them feel right at home. We might even reconstitute a powerful, bipartisan ethics committee with the help of moderate republican, rinos or repubs turned democrat. Jim, DeLay is your guy. If you are republican, you have to face that he is on your team. I hope he stays and twists slowly in the wind. Can he find anymore brain-injured patients to exploit? Anymore judges he wants to target?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:13:57 PM EST
    glanton Kerry and Hillary moderates? Reeeally? You know what, I think you’re onto something. Gee, glanton, I think you might be right. Please, tell me more about these “moderates”. .. .. .. LOL! Have you no shame? Have you no credibility? Come now glanton, what kind of fools do you take the public for? You must have been low on oxygen when you belched that piece of filth. Please, give me better than your starry-eyed, bone-headed assertions to work with – it’ll be more sporting.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#32)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 23, 2005 at 09:49:57 PM EST
    Horse, you make these comments in the aftermath all the major and controlling figures in your preferred party showing their true colors, how very very far they are willing to go in bending us all to a narrow vision: Read the Shiavo Carnival, peanuts and lemonade stands on every corner of south central Florida. This is the kind of hubris and extremism the few moderates in the GOP are referring to. We all saw it. You were, no doubt, on board. Show me Hillary Clinton or John Kerry making such brazen moves to seize control of your private life. Look inward, my friend.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:09:42 AM EST
    glanton If a family reached out to me because they felt their daughter was being unjustly executed, I would do everything in my power to help them in any way I could. And I would not remain silent in the midst of what I felt was an atrocity. Because that's the type of person I am. What kind of person are you? "We're going to use Schiavo" - Howard Dean that type of person. RE: Moderates. Not Kerry, not Hillary, not Dean.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:23:31 AM EST
    CA - You write nonsense. The post was about so-called moderate Repubs signing an attack letter on Delay. We spent some time discussing their desigination as "moderates," as that definitely plays into their motives for the letter, its release, and how "moderate" has been used to disguise the real positions of various politicans, including this letter. As for your comment about Delay being "mine," you know better. My comments re Delay have been consistent. If he has done something illegal, charge and try him. You are attacking him for being a very effective Congressman for the Reopubs. You know it, I know it, and any observer of the political scene knows it. That's perfectly okay, politics is a blood sport. I just find it amusing to see it practiced by someone who has a moniker with "angel" in it.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:07:51 AM EST
    PPJ, Practice what you preach about snarky comments. Most of what you say gives one the impression that you are little more than a bottomless pit of bile. If you read carefully, you would have noted that I wrote this covers only a 30 day period. You wrote at April 23, 2005 01:21 PM:
    "glanton - I can't remember a news article that described a Democrat as a "moderate." If you can find one, please link it so I can place it in my collection of rare and unusual things. ;-)"
    Your petulant response is as follows:
    Of the more interesting variety, I found Dianne Fienstien and Hillary Clinton described as "moderates." The chuckle I got from that was almost worth the effort.
    FYI, When I lived in San Francisco and Feinstein was one of the City Supervisors, she was regarded as one of the most conservative along with Quentin Kopp. Whether you think she's moderate or not is irrelevant. It's just your opinion and I'm sure you know the old saying about opinions. Same thing with Hilary, btw. As for this comment:
    BTW - This is only about the second point I have given up in about two years. So enjoy.
    That says more about your stubborness than it does about the accuracy of your comments.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#36)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:36:18 AM EST
    Let me get this straight. Those defending Delay aren't claiming that the charges of unethical behavior are false. The defense consists of claiming that those making the charge due so for ulterior or partisan reasons. By the way, there is a difference between unethical and illegal behaivor. There are many things that are unethical that are not illegal. Isn't it amazing how hypocritical Republicans are? Just a few years ago they were promising a government run by the highest of ethical standards. This fits a pattern of saying anything so long as it gets what you want. This isn't illegal but it is unethical.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#38)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:47:01 AM EST
    Horse: I'm the type of person that would leave family disputes to the actual family, and in the event of a dispute, I believe litigation the way to settle it. If some demagogues don't like the decision, what of it? Thanks to the tabloid media, the whole nation: nay, the whole world saw what the GOP is really about, not a moderate thinker in the power structure. Not one. Your desire to flip the Shiavo circus into an indictment of the Democrats--amazingly, of Howard Dean, who simply pointed out what any thinking person already knew--believe me, I understand that desire. It's like the time I got mad at my brother for telling on me when, as a child, I "borrowed" fivedollars from my mother's purse. What a jerk he was, it was all his fault for telling on me, right? Accept responsibility--your party is out for blood and even the tabloid media is losing the ability to hide that fact. And again, please show me examples of why Hillary Clinton or Howard Dean aren't centrist? Surely you're outside the actual policies they support, when you make these claims?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#39)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:53:16 AM EST
    Oops, a correction to the first paragraph: let the phrasing read, "in the event of an irreconcilable dispute, I believe litigation the way to settle it."

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    If the Republicans are the "extremists", how come they are the majority party? Oops! Sorry! That's right, no facts, please. You're Democrats. [Doctor Ace, you are over limit. Feel free to return another day.]

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:23:24 AM EST
    "If the Republicans are the "extremists", how come they are the majority party?" Because they lie, and the MSM helps them generously. Because they invented a war and exploited it, silly.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:29:11 AM EST
    Jim - ppj - yes, your type think of politics as a bloodsport. That explains Afghanistan and Iraq. DeLay is a completely unethical sleaze. He will be indicted eventually and will probably cut a deal to avoid jail time, cash out his pacs for his personal retirement fund. I believe when his activities are adequately investigated plenty of illegal activities will be apparent. I do not see politics as bloodsport. It's the nuts and bolts of public service and the formulation of public policy. Personal enrichment and corruption of our representatives gets in the way of the true goals of politics.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:29:55 AM EST
    Jim - couple of simple yes or no questions: Do you support the changes to the ethics panel to remove people who were critical of his activities? Do you support replacement of the critical people with persons who have financial ties to DeLay?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:53:03 AM EST
    Results of news.google.com searches: democrat - 33,000 "liberal democrat" - 4,430 "moderate democrat" - 106 "radical democrat" - 2 republican - 63,100 "moderate republican" - 846 "conservative republican" - 745 "radical republican" - 124 What does this tell you? The press is more likely to call any democrat liberal than to label any republican conservative or moderate. Seems to me the bias is against the democrats..

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:32:36 PM EST
    doesn't matter - Guess that proves that there are more liberal Demos than liberal Repubs. Randy Paul - Saying Fienstien is moderate compared to people on the San Fran city council is meaningless. The baseline is far, far radical left. And you should remember that I conceded the point. As a football coach once told me, act like you've been there before. CA - I would support changes that would eliminate either side changing the rules. Let me know when we can do that. I think there was a book on politics by a Clintonite called Blood Sport. There have been others. You should remember that before you can do all these good things for the people, you have to win an election or three. glanton - Given that the Schiavo situation inflamed passions across the country to an almost unhead of degree, would a moderate political leader say that the Demos would use that in the next election? I think not.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#45)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:04:16 PM EST
    Nice spin Jim. Two points for effort. But you know as well as anyone that the "passions" to which you refer were and are overwhelmingly against what the GOP scavengers did. For Dean and others to remind people that this can and will happen over and over again is truth-telling, it's no more extreme than walking out into a thunderstorm and saying, "it's raining." Plus, everyone with any sense knows this power move by Delay and Santorum and Dubya, et al, has to do with a fringe movement dedicated to overturning _Roe_ outright. It's the writing on the wall, stupid. Criminalize abortion, throw the women and doctors in jail--Hey, and in Oklahoma kill the doctors while you're at it! But Dean's the extremist. How's the weather on your planet? :-O

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:31:53 PM EST
    come on Jim, they are simple yes or no questions: Do you support the changes to the ethics panel to remove people who were critical of his activities? Do you support replacement of the critical people with persons who have financial ties to DeLay?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:37:59 PM EST
    "We're going to use Schiavo" - Howard Dean Nothing like tying the millstone around your own neck, eh Howard?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#48)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    Horse, we all understand that you enjoy playing with the soundbite, but for a real adventure you might try coming on back to earth for a moment and actually address the issue. I go outside, it's raining, I say it's raining. Some millstone, let me tell you. Look inward.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:12:00 PM EST
    Saying Fienstien is moderate compared to people on the San Fran city council is meaningless. The baseline is far, far radical left. [BIG YAWN] Please see previous comment about opinions. As a football coach once told me, act like you've been there before. I bet he had to put it on a tape loop and glue a speaker to your helmet.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:17:19 PM EST
    I seem to recall that LBJ said he thought Gerald Ford had played too many downs without his helmet. Yes, all the football cliches are so useful, just remember to put your helmet on. Come on, Jim, can you answer yes or no to a couple of straight forward questions or do you fear your answers might show you to be rino, also?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#51)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:41:15 PM EST
    Delay has claimed that he had "no way of knowing that any lobbyist might have financially supported the trip (to Scotland)." However, according to today's Washington Post, his airfare on his trip to Scotland was paid for on a lobbyist's (Jack Abramoff) credit card. The "expenses during the same trip for food, phone calls and other items at a golf course hotel in Scotland were billed to a different credit card also used on the trip by a second registered Washington lobbyist." However, Delay had no idea that lobbyists paid for this trip. Just like Ralph Reed had no idea that the $4 million dollars he got from lobbyist Abramoff came from gambling interests. I'm sure this has nothing to do with a lapse in ethics. The reason for these memory lapses is because of the growing epidemic of amnesia that is, so far, limited to Republican politicans. (sarcasm alert)

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:45:19 PM EST
    CA - Do you still beat your wife/husband? Randy Paul - Speaking of loops, do you ever think outside the box? john horse - Airline tikets don't show who owns the card, just the number. Same for hotel, etc., billing. So. Now what is your point? Is DeLay lying? Who knows? (Besides the Left, that is.)

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:48:24 PM EST
    Any of you right leaning, right thinking folks want to handle two simple questions: Do you support the changes to the ethics panel to remove people who were critical of Tom Delay's activities? Do you support replacement of the critical people with persons who have financial ties to Tom DeLay? These are not particularly difficult questions.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:49:34 PM EST
    nope, never did. Raised my girls to know to leave any relationship the first time any of that crap started. So, Jim, you ready to answer the questions?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:51:26 PM EST
    And Jim, I believe the question is supposed to be phrased in the following manner: Jim, when did you stop beating your wife? Answer the questions?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:22:35 PM EST
    CA, I’ll answer your questions. The answers are “yes” and “yes”. Fifteen years ago, when the then Democrat-controlled House Ethics Committee was investigating Jim Wright, the committee flat-out refused to even hear the more serious charges against Wright. Today’s ethics committee is far from perfect, but it is a major improvement over earlier ones. If you don’t want religion involved in politics, then don’t expect miracles!

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:26:11 AM EST
    Thanks, Sailor, for simple answers. We will agree to disagree on this, but at least you are honest and brave enough to give your answers. But since you bring up Wright, do you remember what happened to him at the end of the ehtics investigations? I believe he resigned in a bit of disgrace, did he not?

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:28:17 AM EST
    Jim, yes or no answers? Be a man like Sailor and show your true colors. Does Jim support the changes to the ethics panel to remove people who were critical of Tom Delay's activities? Does Jim support replacement of the critical people with persons who have financial ties to Tom DeLay? Sailor says yes to both. These are fine. How about it Jim. These are ok with you or do you have some rino tendencies yourself.

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 09:51:08 AM EST
    CA - I have given you a reasoned answer to your questions. An assine attempt to badger me will get you no where. My answer was, is and will be: "CA - I would support changes that would eliminate either side changing the rules. Let me know when we can do that."

    Re: Former Republican Representatives Criticize Ho (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 04:08:25 PM EST
    Randy Paul - Speaking of loops, do you ever think outside the box? PPJ: Do you ever think - or simply react?

    Former Republican Representatives Criticize House For Protecting DeLay | 59 comments (59 topical)