home

Military Jury Returns Death Verdict

By Jeralyn, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:09:05 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

The evidence was he is legally sane because he understood the consequences of his actions, but he is mentally ill, suffering from schizophrenia and paranoia. He apologized to the jury.

I want to apologize for the attack that occurred. I felt that my life was in jeopardy, and I had no other options. I also want to ask you for forgiveness," Akbar told the jury before it deliberated in the sentencing phase.

The jury rejected life without the possibility of parole, and sentenced Sgt. Hasan Akbar to death. The media's principal comment: His apology wasn't under oath. Only in America. And people wonder why our international image has lost its luster.

< Open Thread: Bush Speech and Social Security | The Toad Story >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Military Jury Returns Death Verdict | 51 comments (51 topical)
    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#1)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:20:58 PM EST
    His apology said he thought his life was in danger? This is why he did what he did? Not according to his earlier statements which were considerably more bloodthirsty. Given the situation, what about this particular death sentence makes this worse than other death sentences? Are you sure that even in non-death penalty countries that this sort of thing in the military would not receive the death penalty/ Civil/criminal law is one thing, and that's what we frequently hear about. But for apples/apples, it would be comparing, say, Britain's military law against mutiny and murder of a superior officer.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:24:40 PM EST
    If he had only killed a bunch of ragheads, an Italian peacenik, or an Al Jezeera reporter, he would have gotten a medal for it!

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:34:18 PM EST
    "what about this particular death sentence makes this worse than other death sentences?" All death sentences are horrendous.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:35:23 PM EST
    He is most likely schizophrenic as diagnosed. However, (surprise my liberal friends) in the military I don't see any other way than capital punishment in some instances to achieve certain military goals. I don't know how logically I can justify my feelings (which they are, not facts) but I'm not surprised that he got death nor am I outraged. Despite my view that the death penalty is abhorrent and barbaric for the non military classes.... Despite knowing that he should have been hospitalized, medicated, etc., etc. for the rest of his life as a fair punishment.... This is my "tough" side coming out but I think in this instance the inhumane thing was to put him through a trial and sentencing. Shooting him in the head at sunrise the next day would have been the compassionate choice under these particular circumstances. Willing to be convinced otherwise but doubtful, mfox

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimcee on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:39:41 PM EST
    Maybe I'm missing something but didn't he kill his theoretical brothers in arms because he felt the enemy was right? Uhm if he was just some terrorist guy that randomly killed a few cops it would be different? If I rolled a grenade into a DNC meeting would I get the feeling that I would be a murderer and I would have no hope of TL defending me? So sad has partisan politics become that TL would appear to condone the murder of US troops and believe that this former soldier is such a nice guy that everyone including the families of the murdered soldiers should not see fair military justice. If you believe this piece of sh*t deserves the benefit of a doubt I suggest that you tell the families of those killed by him that it is not a big deal. Talk Left, I thought you were better than that but I'm starting to think otherwise. He is a murderer and you think he deserves a break and your opinion is...?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#6)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:40:02 PM EST
    All death penalties are equally horrendous, TL? I must have misinterpreted your comment as saying there was something particularly wrong about this. Why mention the nuts factor if not to make a point that there is something worse?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:57:06 PM EST
    Pre-meditated murder is never defensible. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. As in, two wrongs do not make a right. People jockeying to defend the killing of this disturbed soldier need not apply. Your defense of pre-meditated killing is impermissible in any society that values its members. Soul-less are you. And soul-less do you seek to make society. Once you deliberate as a group to allow pre-meditated murder, where can a line be drawn? You have, in effect, okayed your own death and the death of those you love. Since there is no line that can be drawn once you choose to approve death for another. Stop it. I ask you to stop because I value your live and the lives of those you love. Please consider that your approval for killing is counter-productive to your own desire to live.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#8)
    by Johnny on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 09:03:17 PM EST
    Jimcee-nice job of extrapolation there, I am impressed.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 09:07:09 PM EST
    Alright, Pre-Med, ya got me (I feel so easy ...). In my ideal world there is no war, which I think is indefensible. And I am certainly not advocating abusing the mentally ill. I would instead argue that being condioned to kill in the armed services is a form of behavioral "abuse" to a certain extent and that you could never draw a line between mentally healthy or unhealthy, stable or unstable in a military force. Therefore, I don't realistically see any Army in the next few decades at least that's going to provide diagnosis and treatment for things like depression, paranoia, ADHD, or mild PTSD. That's part of the abuse you're subjected to as a piece of Government Property when you sign on the dotted line to enlist. So you're right of course. But even in my liberal world, there's no way that guy wasn't going to end up dead. Simply no way.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 09:10:45 PM EST
    I guess I am imagining that if I did what he did and was even as remotely conscious as Terry Shiavo I would expect to be killed. I'm not sure where my feelings on this come from.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 09:31:18 PM EST
    There's a word that describes this guy: Traitor There's a term that describes the state the US was in when this action took place: War Hmmm - treason during war by a soldier. You're confused by the verdict why?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 09:40:24 PM EST
    No one is defending what he did. The death penalty is wrong, for everyone, no matter what the crime. Life without the possibility of parole is not letting the murderer off. See here.
    The death penalty is institutionalized violence that only creates more victims.
    An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 10:05:14 PM EST
    I'm trying to figure out how his mental illness is relevant.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 10:28:45 PM EST
    TL, I have qualms about the death penalty. On the other hand, once you are in life w/o parole, any murders you commit in prison are free. When I lived in NY, a few of those happened. What do you propose to do with such offenders?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 11:19:33 PM EST
    There's a term that describes the state the US was in when this action took place:
    Delusional

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 11:23:56 PM EST
    Pre-meditated murder is never defensible.
    What about premeditated mass murder? That's about the only way to describe the mission he was sent on.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 04:32:16 AM EST
    If he had only killed a bunch of ragheads, an Italian peacenik, or an Al Jezeera reporter, he would have gotten a medal for it! Wow. That comment soars past cynicism and manages to land somewhere beyond stupid, JeraLynn. fyi - Sgt. Akbar followed the Rules of Engagement regarding the killing of the - your words - ragheads, Italian peacenik, or Al-Jazeera reporter, Sgt. Akbar probably would not have gotten a medal for killing them. Combat medals usually are given for conduct while under attack or action taken after an attack. What you're talking about, apparently, is marksmanship - the military gives ribbons out for marksmanship after time spent on a rifle range. But, no doubt, you felt better for your snark - and that's the important thing. My guess is that the military doesn't want its soldiers guessing whether or not their lawyers can float a diagnosis of schizophrenia with depression and get a life sentence while deciding whether to frag their officers during combat operations.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 05:17:09 AM EST
    "All death sentences are horrendous." Sure enough, but just like wars, it doesn't mean they cannot be justified.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 05:20:19 AM EST
    I'm having a hard time understanding this. If all death sentences are bad, then why even mention the alleged paranoia? Seems to take away from the moral anger.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 05:32:25 AM EST
    Schizophrenia with paranoid features definitely suggests a lack of capacity to me. I have thought for years that there ought to be a separate category of plea which would be guilty by reason of insanity. Then the trier of fact would only have to decide whether substantial mental illness existed at the time of the event. I know a few schizophrenics and I don't really think the military is the best place for them. It tends to be a little too structured and scary when the schizophrenia is florid. Sentencing the mentally ill to death does not appeal to me. I reserve judgment on sociopaths such as Ted Bundy and others because I have no first hand knowledge about that mental condition and am not certain it would meet my definition of mental illness. Maybe some folks are just more evil than crazy? But probably not this guy, I think he's much more crazy than evil.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#21)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 05:51:03 AM EST
    As far as I can tell, there are five categories of nuts which relate to crime: One is the guy who knifes another under the impression the other is a rabid Rottweiler coming for him. One is a guy who knifes another because he likes to knife people. One is a guy who knifes another under the impression the other guy is a mortal enemy, about to do something awful to him, which is really only a variation of the first. One is a guy who can't understand that what he is doing is wrong. And one is a guy under irresistible compulsion. The second is not mental illness. It's just a difference of opinion, and as we were taught when I studied psychology, that's not mental illness. Of course, we didn't use murder as an example--too many complications--but the point is that, whatever the lay person thinks, doing stuff the rest of us don't like because YOU like it isn't mental illness. So that leaves three categories of nuts which may or may not apply to a criminal trial. Can't resist. Don't understand. Delusional. Whether this guy was nuts or not, his reasons as he articulated in advance were no more than any other Islamic wackjob's reasons. War against Muslims had to be resisted. That Muslims war against Muslims is, apparently, not part of the picture. US soldiers were going to rape Muslim women. That Iraqi thugs were already doing so at a rate infinitely beyond what the US troops were going to do was apparently irrelevant. This clown's reasoning is exactly congruent with the stuff we hear from other Islamofascists. We can do what we want to each other. To you. You may not do anything back, or it's a violation of universal law. A kind of exceptionalism. From which I draw the conclusion that this guy isn't the only wackjob out there. Or, if they're not nuts, neither is he. Last possibility. He's nuts and his reasoning is only similar to the non-nuts wackjobs by accident. Isn't that neat.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:24:22 AM EST
    Skip the collective, Capt.We the people do not "abort". Nature and mothers abort. That has exactly what to do with you? I don't think we've slept together ; )

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:38:06 AM EST
    Thread is about death penalty for this soldier, not about abortion. It's strange to me that the folks who are so energetic about the rights of the unborn, are often so indifferent to the rights and conditions of the already born. This guy was not aborted, do your interests in his inalienable rights continue?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:40:02 AM EST
    Should the military be screening and discharging folks with schizophrenia or should we just go ahead and send them to the combat theaters and see how it all works out?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:46:38 AM EST
    This is such a challenging issue to sort out, and IMHO exactly the kind of thing that progressives have to be able to speak aptly to and frame in a way that doesn't exploit fairness and compassion. I am really really against the death penalty. However, in an ideal world where the death penalty was abolished (I'm no fan of life w/o parole except for the Charles Mansons and Ted Bundy's of the world either), how can you possibly abolish the death penalty in an organization whose job it is to administer the "death penalty" to defend us and our national interests? I guess, in an all volunteer army, ideally you wouldn't want any candidates who exhibited unstable tendencies or signs of depression or mental illness. But honestly, how are you going to tell apart, in a combat situation the guy who's scared sh*tless in a foxhole because he's scared and the guy who's freaking out because a little Mullah in his head is telling him that the Americans are trying to kill him? Ultimately, my feeling is that we, as Americans, have to realize that sometimes things happen that aren't anyone's fault. I don't blame this guy. My ex-husband's thirty something succesful scientist brother, after several weeks of bizzare behavior and preposterous allegations, was finally detained at the airport trying to get on a plane because the Nazis were out to get him (he was Armenian - go figure Nazis!). He was diagnosed with adult onset schzophrenia and was fine (more or less) with some meds, which he might be on some would argue if we hadn't been lied to about WMD's, the motivation for invasion, etc. Just another casualty of war, in the end.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:49:01 AM EST
    Catch you on an abortion thread, Capt. In the meantime go help some babies who are already born. Better yet, I chose to have my baby and be a single mom. Could you help us out and donate $50 to Talk Left?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:52:54 AM EST
    Clarification: He was diagnosed with adult onset schzophrenia and was fine (more or less) with some meds, which SGT AKBAR might be on some would argue if we hadn't been lied to about WMD's, the motivation for invasion, etc.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#30)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 07:21:50 AM EST
    If the soldier was in fact delusional at the time of the attack he shouldn’t be killed, he should be confined to a secure hospital and medicated. Although if he was delusional it seems it was more than some transient delusion of persecution, as pointed out by the prosecution through passages from the soldier’s diary. I’m curious; say the defendant refused to testify, isn’t the prosecution using the soldier’s diary effectively compelling him to testify? “Your defense of pre-meditated killing is impermissible in any society that values its members. Soul-less are you.” Soulless? We all are; it’s a metaphysical construct of spiritual fairytale. How folks value human life has always interested me. My observation; folks value the lives of others in direct proportion to their relation and geography. Relation in how they either identify with that particular person, i.e. similar circumstances, or familial relation. Take the example of someone going hungry. It weighs on the conscious much more to see your parents go hungry than a second cousin you may have met once or twice. And certainly folks are more willing to sacrifice more for a hungry neighbor than they are to sacrifice for the starving or undernourished millions of developing nations. “I ask you to stop because I value your live and the lives of those you love.” Well, the question then is how much? You certainly can’t value them as much as you value your own life or the lives of your loved ones. If so you wouldn’t have time to visit weblogs or even afford the computer to do so. In the time it took me to write this almost 60 children died of dehydration from dysentery. I think your objection may be less than altruistic … “Please consider that your approval for killing is counter-productive to your own desire to live.”

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 07:58:52 AM EST
    Pigwiggle, I really want to stay on topic today so won't say to much except that you are very close. It turns out we demonstrate "altruistic" tendencies a. in direct relationship to that person's genetic similarity to us and b. when we perceive that acting as a group (e.g. ganging up to hunt a mammoth) will aid our genetic fitness. For example some Gorillas males will "gang up" to help their "friend" mate (by distracting the female, etc.). This gorilla demonstrates altruistic behavior with the expectation that the same will be returned and that making partnerships will aid his ability to mate.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 09:08:40 AM EST
    Excellent!! Justice is served!!!!

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#33)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 09:10:48 AM EST
    any murders you commit in prison are free. When I lived in NY, a few of those happened. What do you propose to do with such offenders?
    Hmmm. Life imprisonment in a Supermax will likely solve that problem. Tough to kill other inmates when you have no contact with them. The guards their are usually a cut above the run of the mill c.o.'s as well, or so I'm told by friends working in the field.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 09:28:43 AM EST
    All members of the armed forces should realize that they have already given their lives to the government to waste as they see fit. If the govt. kills you in a battlefield, no different than in a prison. I am staunchly against the death penalty, but anyone who joins the military, esp. in a time of "war", knows that they may in fact die. Changes the value of their life in my mind.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 10:34:50 AM EST
    wtf, talking bout coming out of left field! whose posing?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 10:53:01 AM EST
    A robot army would solve the problem. I've yet to see a schizoid robot except for the one on 'Lost in Space'. Put him on a feeding tube and then starve him to death. It's the humane thing to do.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 11:47:52 AM EST
    troll deleted

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 11:48:22 AM EST
    troll deleted

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 11:51:53 AM EST
    Sorry if this has already been said, but: Akbar kills two American soldiers. Death penalty. Numerous Americans tried for murder and torture because of Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan and Guantanam. No death penalty. Virtually all acquitted. I get it.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 12:09:00 PM EST
    there is no military justice system, the outcome is predetermined, if your innocent there's no trial, if your guilty theres a trial, guess what the trial will reveal, your guilty. murder and torture at Abu Ghabi, Afghanistan and Guantanamo, the only reason anyone was tried, and a few scapegoats offered up, was the media (w/blogasphere) and international attention. notice: no one of significance has been accused and/or tried, in fact they were summarily acquitted of any/all accusations, past/present/future.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 12:10:28 PM EST
    V2Marty - Did you ever think that if they are killed they have given their life in defense of the country. And, that includes you. Now I don't want you to be grateful, but I do want to be sure you understand that. AtlantaJan - I refer you to the above. et al - I have often commented that I am against execution when the case is circumstantial, but not when there is no doubt. There is no doubt, and he turned on his own comrades in arms. Hang him.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#40)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    "Did you ever think that if they are killed they have given their life in defense of the country . . . I do want to be sure you understand that." Fair enough, Jim. When lives are on the line this logic is by far the most palatable, and maybe for thgis reason alone it deserves first dibs. In the spirit of sharing, though, I have to ask: Have YOU ever considered the opposite? That when they are killed it is simply because George W. Bush is President? That sans the GOP victory in 2000, everyone killed in the Iraq war would still be alive, and we would still be at least as safe as we are today? When a President starts a war, it does not necessarily follow that the war is being fought in defense of "us." That actually has to be true on its own terms. And in this case, such truth has hardly been demonstrated.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#41)
    by shmerritt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    Coincidentally, Amnesty International just sent its "flashcard" e-mail pertaining to the drive to abolish the death penalty worldwide, providing links to its recent reports on the death penalty in 2004. Here's one with a menu on right leading to the home page.
    As in previous years, the vast majority of executions worldwide were carried out in a tiny handful of countries. In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.
    Note the company "we" keep.
    Based on public reports available, Amnesty International estimated that at least 3,400 people were executed in China during the year, although the true figures were believed to be much higher. In March 2004 a delegate at the National People's Congress said that "nearly 10,000" people are executed per year in China. Iran executed at least 159 people, and Viet Nam at least 64. There were 59 executions in the USA, down from 65 in 2003.
    The only good news is that in the USA, the number of executions was down in 2004, but not by many. And it won't be until this time next year that the numbers for 2005 are reported. The death penalty should be abolished because it is inhumane and contrary to universal human rights (one of which is the right to life). If someone takes away another's or others' human right to life, there are severe penalties short of death (short of "an eye for an eye"/retributive justice). I think that the death penalty is unconstitutional, that it is a "cruel and unusual punishment" as well as a breach of the Bill of Rights (the right to life). I am opposed to the death penalty in all cases.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#42)
    by shmerritt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    Here is the Amnesty International "Fact Sheet" for those above discussing the execution of murderers who are diagnosed as mentally ill, specifically suffering from schizophrenia. Executing the mentally ill is against international law, but, most outrageously, the United States still does it.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    To Bumperstickerest... My point was that this guy stands to be killed because he was guilty of killing...the wrong people. If he had killed the people our government wants him to kill, i.e., everyone standing in the way of Iraq's state assets being privatized, then he would have been rewarded with a medal, a ribbon, or whatever worthless piece of decoration that tradition dictates they pin on him. Here's the motto of the vultures who sent him to kill... WE ARE THE STATE YOU KILL WHO WE TELL YOU TO KILL OR WE'LL KILL YOU Go ahead and defend that concept if you feel comfortable doing so, but I see through the hype. I only wish he was able to roll that grenade much, muuuuuch further up the chain of command than he did.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#44)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    Good rainy Saturday Susan: "A defense psychiatrist testified that although Akbar was legally sane and understood the consequences of his attack, he suffered from forms of paranoia and schizophrenia." Before codemning the US, consider what I have placed in italics from the linked article. First, a defense witness testifying on mental matters doesn't have a great deal of credibility. But even then, he testifies that he was legally sane and understood the consquences of his actions. You may be against the death penalty in any form, reason, whatever. I may be for it in cases where there is absolutelly no doubt of guilt. But isn't your logic flawed when you bring in AI, and since he is legally sane, what does the international law reference prove?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    PPJ: So you believe that "defense experts" are not credible - but prosecutors experts are? I dislike intensely the battle of paid experts with a (usually) non-professional jury having to decide which one is credible. I think all this sort of stuff should be done before any trial by a panel of appropriate experts appointed by the judge. If you don't believe that the prosecutions experts are cherry- picked for their willingness to go along with the state, you are incredibly gullible!

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#46)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    I know a few schizophrenics and I don't really think the military is the best place for them. Ya think? Those morons (and their right trash supporters of death in all forms) couldn't spell schizophrenia much less recognize it. So it must not exist. So why do the makers of Lithium make so much cash?

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#47)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:35 PM EST
    glanton – In the spirit of sharing?? ;-) Some good questions. Let's see.. If Bush had not won in 2000, how many would have died in post 9/11 attacks against the US? Remember, Gore was part of the administration, and I have seen no record of him being for attacking Afghanistan, or anyone else for that matter. In fact, the previous administrations had discussions about al-Qaiada , the Taliban and Afghanistan, but backed away from attacking because they could not secure the cooperation of Pakistan. The basic strategy was a criminal justice strategy. i.e. After they attack we will bury our dead and try to hunt them down. That strategy was not working, as can be seen by the number of successful attacks against the US, the most recent pre Bush was the USS Cole. What is most often forgotten is that Bush, in 2/01, increased the resources and called for finding a solution a rather than merely waiting to respond. Clark said that was in April 01. And remember, Bush's strategy for the WOT was pre-emptive strikes before the country in question could provide support/weapons, etc. for attacks on the US. Now, I understand you disagree with the strategy. But you have no way of knowing how many US lives it has saved. Who knows what DOD facility is in the Triangle that would have been high on the list? But basically, what you propose is a selective list. I’m not at risk, so I don’t worry about the others. A country cannot run like that.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    If Bush had not won in 2000, how many would have died in post 9/11 attacks against the US?
    PPJ...This isn't the first time you rolled out this canard but I hope it's the last. What you imply is that invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq has stopped any post-9/11 attacks on the United States. Very few people who know anything about the subject would make such a claim. What proof is there that the military action since 9/11 has done anything except result in thousands of unnecessary deaths? Please answer that question. We KNOW how many U.S. people have died because of those military operations. We can only guess at the number of Iraqi and Afghan deaths. Hey, why don't you ask how many people could have been saved by us not arming Bin Laden and the boys in the first place? The answer is close to 3,000 in this country alone. That much we know.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#49)
    by shmerritt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    In countries that have the death penalty, it is, nevertheless, still against several international laws (not Amnesty International USA, but against the international laws that AIUSA summarizes in its reports) to execute people who are judged (1) criminally [an important distinction] "insane"; and (2) suffering from "mental illness" (including schizophrenia and paranoia) and/or (3) "mental retardation." The point that I cited earlier is that the United States is still executing people who are judged "mentally ill" (and/or "mentally retarded") in some cases when those people have been found "criminally sane" (These are separate distinctions). Yet, executing people and executing specifically the "insane" and/or "mentally ill" and/or "mentally retarded" are against some international laws to which the United States itself is a signatory (e.g., the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for starters). As AIUSA also points out, in contrast to U.S. Federal and State "death penalty" statutes, the U.S. Military has its own "death penalty" statute. Paralleling the article TL quotes, AIUSA observes that while there are several people already on military "death row," no one has been executed by the military since the early 60s. Please read the material here and at other links such as FAQ on the AIUSA page. There is no excuse for ignorance in matters of life and death (or most others, including the understanding of the nature of crimes against humanity). More here . From my own perspective, people like "you and me"--that is, commenters here--are not to decide who lives and who dies, in our day-to-day lives (unless we are soldiers ourselves on the battlefield trained to kill others, and, obviously, I am not and never would be a soldier--I volunteered for training in the U.S. Peace Corps in the mid-60s), or as judges or members of juries in courts of law (and, as I go on record about opposing the death penalty, I would not selected to serve on such juries in the United States; not being a lawyer, I would never become a judge either). So my only means of opposing the death penalty publicly (on ethical human rights grounds) is by "commenting" in my writing online and in print and in public presentations.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#50)
    by shmerritt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    At the bottom of the "some pictures" webpage just linked, you will find additional death-penalty "abolitionist" "Stop Capital Punishment Now" links, welcoming that people with comparable sites submit them. It's a very useful compendium of links for those seeking more information about issues relating to this subject.

    Re: Military Jury Returns Death Verdict (none / 0) (#51)
    by shmerritt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    On the "Military Death Penalty," try this site: Death Penalty Information Center; also the source of information on the "Federal Death Penalty." (AIUSA seems to draw its information from them, or webpages like them.)

    Military Jury Returns Death Verdict | 51 comments (51 topical)