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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri May 06, 2005 at 09:35:07 AM EST
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    Friday Open Thread | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:57:27 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy writes - "2. Murder Inc.? The U.S. military has just cleared a Marine who was video-taped shooting a wounded an unarmed Iraqi after determining the man was alive." Uh, why would he shoot him if he wasn't alive? He shot him because he thought he was alive, thought he was playing "dead" and was going to blow himself and those around him up. mfox - "A uniform implies IMO MORE accountability than less - a fact that amazingly seems to escape most people." The purpose of the uniform on BOTH sides is to identify the combatants, it has nothing to do with "accountability," whatever that means. BTW - You don't have to remain, but you really should.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:57:34 PM EST
    "I'm longing for my country to be a place like Denmark or Holland who actively resisted the Nazis and made deliberate efforts to save Jews." Really nothing nothing to say to that beyond: "it's a wonderful dream that aint never gonna happen."

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:57:34 PM EST
    glanton - Holland and Denmark were so good at resisting the Nazis that the US and England had to come rescue them. I mean really. Sometimes you amaze me.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:57:35 PM EST
    Larger military budget doesn't mean better people, Jim. Those are (relatively) peaceful nations mfox is talking about, nations that have a helluva lot less bigotry than we do, too. We could learn much from them. Of course with you, nobody can teach the United States anything--this country and its politicians are always right, is that it?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Thanks Jeralyn... Blaghdaddy has a couple of issues that he feels could bear some discussion on a quiet Friday. 1. War on Terror...maybe? So the U.S. gov't is quietly holding a Cuban terror suspect who entered the U.S. illegally, but the Bush gov't doesn't want to give Castro the satisfaction of returning him, so he's being considered for refugee status. Question: In Bush's "War on Terror," doesn't a man who bombed an airliner qualify as a terrorist? Or does he get a pass based on his politics? 2. Murder Inc.? The U.S. military has just cleared a Marine who was video-taped shooting a wounded an unarmed Iraqi after determining the man was alive. Question: If this isn't a "summary execution" as described under Geneva, what is? Not to take up TL's broadband, Blaghdaddy has linked to his own opinions. Any takers on the above-mentioned?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy.... #1 He commited acts of terrorism in Cuba... against the Cuban government.... ok...So? doesn't a man who bombed an airliner qualify as a terrorist? Yes, do you have info to the contrary? #2 There were several cases where wounded (& seemingly unarmed) men waited for Marines to get close to them & then blew themselves up. Were you there? Do you know the circumstances? It's easy to play Monday morning QB isn't it?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Who does? Hey BB- remember how Americans foamed at the mouth in the first days of the Iraq invasion and a dozen U.S. soldiers died in an ambush? Remember how mad everyone was when it came out that some of those soldiers had been "executed," shot after they were wounded or captured? Remember how the cry "That's what makes us different" went out? How the U.S. military said, "They will pay for this crime..."? Were you mad then? If you were, are you willing to admit that you're being hypocritical in this matter?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy.... don't we all know deep down that this kill wasn't legit Well... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I (being an ex combat vet myself) tend to give the beneift of the doubt to the guy facing that split second decision. You hestate...you die. I know most of the people on here think the war is wrong and jump on anything that might verify their thoughts..... I understand that, but you must take every action as an individual thing and not lump the whole war into a "see, here's another example"... type thing. Imagine if we critisized the guys in WWII like we are now? I saw something the other day on the History Channel, when they were close to getting Hitler. Many of his men were trying to surrender but the GI's mowed them down... All guilty of murder? I don't think so. Mfox.... It is less morally excusable to shoot an injured soldier in a gunfight I understand and agree (somewhat) on the Geneva convention comments you make... But you must understand... you are trying to apply logic & reason from the past. Back when we knew who the enemy was... he had a uniform... he had a base camp. He didn't blow himself up as he was lying injured on the ground. He followed (for the most part) the articles of the convention. Unfortunately this isn't the case now. I can cite a famous old example from the revolutionary war. The British marched in columns and fired their guns as they marched out in the open... Meanwhile, the Americans hid behind trees and took cover. This was totally 'unfair'. But guess what, the British eventually got the hint and started fighting us the way we were fighting them. Thankfully, they lost anyway... but you get the point.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    mfox, A bummed-out mfox isn't good. Well, you can look at my response to your somewhat similar question over on the Emmett Till thread. It's all I can offer!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    BB, Blaghdaddy's hat is off to you as a combat veteran... You've earned your right to your opinion. We just happen to disagree. Blaghdaddy hopes you'll forgive him for guessing that you were ten times the soldier this piece of crap is, but if you feel he was legit, Blaghdaddy can't second-guess you.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Glad you asked, BB... 1. Blaghdaddy has no info to the contrary, but you might want to ask Bush that, since he's considering giving the guy asylum...America gives asylum to terrorists now? 2. The Geneva Convention doesn't say "unless you've been tricked before and are kind of ticked off." Or is it your supposition that, if an enemy violates Geneva, that it's "every man for himself?" In that case, why all the crying about "dirty tactic" terrorists?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy... Sorry but your post doesn't make a lot of sense. The fact that this guy hates the Cuban government (who we also dislike very much by the way) doesn't make him bad. He has commited no terrorist act against the US has he? I guess I'm confused by your thought process here? As for point #2 In a combat zone....you do what you need to do. If I knew that other wounded individuals blew up some of my comrads...and I came up on this guy, who was moving under the blankets and didn't heed my warnings to stop...I would have shot him too. Lets be straight on the Geneva convention here while we are on that subject. It was designed (& signed) by many governments (Nations) of the world. Our current fight is not with any one nation and the individuals fighting against us don't recognize it as any kind of document that they are willing to abide by... Therefore, we are under NO obligation to do so either. Should we follow it anyway? ...Yes of course. Should we be upset if (in the course of battle) our troops don't always followed it to the letter? .... NO! For example...it cleary states that troops should be in uniform so as to distingish them from civilains. Are these guys doing that? NO. Are we? Yes! I could go on but I hope you will get the point.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    I've watched too much Holocaust stuff on TV this week. Can anybody tell me why I should remain in the United States as a patriotic and committed citizen? Our history of racism and moral ambiguity is just really starting to get to me. I'm longing for my country to be a place like Denmark or Holland who actively resisted the Nazis and made deliberate efforts to save Jews. I love my country. I just don't recognize it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    BB, Blaghdaddy agrees whole-heartedly with your supposition- hell, if some guys had blown up Blaghdaddy's buddies, Blagh would probably have emptied his entire clip into the guy... And that's the problem...don't we all know deep down that this kill wasn't legit, but the anger and frustration, combined with the fact that he's one of "our boys" leads us to want to excuse it? If those who are on our side are shown in black and white doing what he did, we must say, "Yup, I'm feelin' ya," but also, "Unfortunately, the rules apply to both sides and we must do OUR part in enforcing them." Does that not make sense, even if you disagree, BB? This isn't about standing in judgement...it's about standing behind what we say is the "Western Ideal," which means we don't look the other way when these things happen. The next Iraqi may be some civilian standing by a fire-fight, who was caught in the cross-fire and then taken out by a pissed-off Marine who took him for a bad guy...are you going to tell that Iraqi family that they're "arm-chair quarter-backing" to want their pound of flesh for the murder?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    mfox- so you have that same, sick-in-the-gut feeling too, that somewhere, something went terribly wrong with the way the West does things? Join the club of "Dark Foreboding-" waiting list for membership.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Well, it don't hurt to ask, kdog...even if one knows the answer before-hand. And hey, isn't it "the same Shi'ite, a differet day?" :-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    BB, I would say that your reasoning seems sane. But that is because you are referring to OUR guys. I don't think the Geneva convention was only to apply if both sides met beforehand and shook on it. It is less morally excusable to shoot an injured soldier in a gunfight than to be a "slow" kid tryin' to be one of the guys. A uniform implies IMO MORE accountability than less - a fact that amazingly seems to escape most people. The fish is rotting from the head down - so stop saying that the tail smells. Just a few thoughts, BB. Blaghdaddy said the rest (in 3rd person, to boot!)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    "Can anybody tell me why I should remain in the United States as a patriotic and committed citizen? Our history of racism and moral ambiguity is just really starting to get to me." Mfox, you OK?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Sarcastic- the question isn't "is fmox ok?" but rather "what the hell's wrong with everyone else?" Remember the Persian Gulf War, when Americans nearly had a conniption when Saddam's boys roughed up captured pilots? Did they SHOOT them dead where they lay? How about Mi-Lai? Ooops, the Marines were ticked off, too? Remember the rage when Somalis dragged dead American soldiers through the streets? Well, if you think what this Marine did in Fallujah is heroic or just, you've just joined the other side...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    I repeat, mfox, you ok?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Appreciating the concern, sarcastic, but your response hardly helps! : )

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    ... I don't like Dark Forboding....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    glanton - You avoid my point. These nations were incapable of disputing Hitler's philsophy before he attacked, because of their wonderful world view. Because of that, Hitler was able to attack with the full belief that he could win easily, and did so. Do you think that helping Jews after you have lost the battle is more moral than destroying the evil that is killing the Jews? Glanton, that reveals a serious America bashing attitude. As for these nations, current state of bigotry, I note that some of Holland's Moslem citizens recently killed a film maker because they disagreed with his movies. I don't remember any of the so called Christian Right leaders dispatching killing squads against Michael Moore. So yes, an ability to defend your beliefs and civilization is necessary in the scheme of things, and has always been so.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Jim, again, as always, you confuse big military with good people.You should know by now that our ability to "kick ass" (spits tobacco juice into spit can, adjusts ballcap) doesn't mean anything to me. Just more guns is all it is. Your anecdote about the film producer is fine and all, and I even bet you could find a couple more if pressed, but REALLY. Please. Do you really want to get into comparing hate crimes in Holland and hate crimes here? How many people in this country in the past, say, ten years, do you think have been beaten and/or killed because of their sexuality or race? Of course, Americans a lot of times just kill because we're an extremely violent nation, more so than every other European nation combined.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Glanton - You dance well. The subject was how wonderful Holland and Denmark was, oh so moral. You evade the hard`reality that bad things happen to good people, and that you need to be able to defend yourself. As for our violent tendancies, I assume you are projecting into the future, because when you start using history, there is a 6,000,000 base figure, not to mention the others killed in WWII and WWI.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Such self-loathing. So what do you think, the Dutch and Danes are so different from us? You think they're "better" than us? Guess what, had the situations been reversed, their countries would have acted just like ours, and ours just like theirs. You don't like being the biggest kid on the block/most powerful country in the world? Fine, you don't have to like it, but the only way to change that is to break the US up into much smaller and weaker countries and that ain't gonna happen, so what are you going to do? Spend the rest of your life crying about it? Have fun.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    You evade the hard`reality that bad things happen to good people, and that you need to be able to defend yourself.
    Jim, just curious...how does this square with your support for our intervention in Vietnam? Was it necessary for the good guys (us) to defend ourselves halfway around the world?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Jim, you really don't wanna get into base figures, do you, because then we have to get into slavery and Indians and the filibusters in Northern Mexico after that war, as well as the annexation of Texas and the Civil War and World Wars and Vietnam and Iraq and on and on and on..... The on the other side with most of these European nations you have the barbarian hordes, the Crusades, slavery of their own, World Wars and what have you and on and on and on. No. I'm not saying we're the only nation with a bloody history. I am saying we're far more violent as a people, today, than any of our European counterparts. In any case, if you don't wanna admit that we have huge problems with bigotry here in this nation, like the cop in South Park, everything's fine nothing to see here, it's all great as long as you can go to Olive Garden for dinner after shopping at Wal Mart----then be my guest. You ignoring the problems doesn't make them go away.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy had an idea when he posted the thread suggestion for the U.S. Marine that something like this would happen: 1. Support him or you're anti-American, 2. Condemning him means you're anti-American. Blaghdaddy thanks you all for participating in this discussion. America is still in big trouble if those who excuse America's crimes do so in the name of patriotism. The fall of Empire has never been caused by military force, but by internal rot, corruption and hubris. What that soldier did was a crime. Anyone who excuses him should go lie down where American soldiers were executed in the same manner, and see if they excuse the Iraqi murderers any more easily than they did the Marine... People need to remember Rome- now Italy, Greece- now a backwater country, Egypt- enough said... All dynasties fall, and those who whistle in the wind, turning their faces away from America's crimes instead of saying, "My country is better than this," are a bigger threat to her than her enemies.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:50 PM EST
    Blaghaddy - Can you name me one thing that you like about our current military? Administration? What was your position on Kosovo? Do you believe we should defend ourselves? As for the marine. Let me educate you on what happened. The very young man in question was in his second day of high tension and high risk combat operations. He was well aware of the fact that these terrorists had, and would, kill themselves if they could take an American with them. And he was well aware that wounded terrorists had been booby trapped to try and kill anyone who tried to move them. So, at the moment in question, he reacted and finished killing the already wounded terrorist. Which was cause for a modest amount of regret because of the blah-blah it would cause within the hate America community. Sorry, but I can't mourn the death of a terrorist. As for your striking inability to recognize this and your continual ranting about America I can only prescribe you a large dose of reality juice in the hopes it will open your eyes to the real world. Now, Blaghdaddy. Anymore questions? Ernesto - I'll answer your question when you tell me what America did to deserve the 9/11 attack. And remember. The "we gave them weapons" is not an excuse for the attack. Did you think I would forget?? glanton - Please. We are talking about how sweet and lovable Denmark and Holland is. I have already specified that we are warlike and ready to defend ourselves, and others, at the drop of a hat. I think Holland and Denmark are part of that "others" group, so they can continue to be sweet and loving while we cover for them. And why would you bring up Civil War deaths in a discussion about deaths caused by truly bad people? As for the native americans, you should do a little reading about who was here first, and who bumped who off their spot, etc. Try "The Contested Plains," University of KS Press.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:50 PM EST
    This was sad. Florida has a website providing the addresses of sex offenders. In reaction to the recent news about the killing of two young girls, someone in the Ocala Orange Groves subdivision found an entry about Chuckie Claxton's conviction for molestation of a young girl about 15 years ago. That person then plastered the neighborhood with posters about Claxton adding at the bottom of the poster "CHILD RAPIST." What the person writing the poster did not mention and maybe didn't know was that Claxton relied on a wheelchair and that the police no longer considered him a serious threat. A couple of days after the posters appeared, Claxton killed himself. One of the posters was found next to his body.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:51 PM EST
    "And why would you bring up Civil War deaths in a discussion about deaths caused by truly bad people?" I love questions that contain the answer within them. Very Douglas Adams. And BTW: I think you misunderstood my comment about the Indians. That they were here first was my point, their methodical extermination surely would factor into any "base figures" you seek to offer. Finally, you're a broken record when it comes to discussing foreign policy: military strength equals value in your rubric, obviously--unless we're talking about those who would fight us, of course. Clearly, Jim, you're not capable of looking objectively at the American soul. You must think the world is a real life Lord of the Rings, with the US as perennial good guys or something. More funny still, my point, at least, about Holland and Denmark had to do with seing them as nations as having soemthing to teach in the way of widespread bigotry. Our nation being in desperate need of tutoring from someone anyway: read Mississippi Burning, also read the fact that politicians and posters here still want to claim that anti-homosexuial rhetoric rperesents a valid point of view. Just forget it. What a waste, trying to discuss ethics with you. "My country right or wrong" is not the lens through which I see, choosing instead to look at what we do realistically.

    Friday Open Thread | 32 comments (32 topical)