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Why Arar Was Tortured

By TChris, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sun May 29, 2005 at 09:25:44 AM EST
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by TChris

This attitude toward individual liberty has become typical in the Bush administration.

"We wanted more information," said the former official, who sat in on discussions of Mr. Arar's fate in 2002. "The one way we wouldn't get it is if we let him go."

The official is talking about Maher Arar, who was kidnapped by the United States government and whisked away to Syria for interrogation. (Talkleft background collected here.) The administration claims it had evidence that the Canadian was a member of Al Qaeda, but Arar was released when ten months of imprisonment and torture produced no evidence to support the claim.

Even a casual reader of the Constitution might think that a deprivation of liberty requires something more than an unspecified level of suspicion held by unnamed bureaucrats in the Justice Department on the basis of secret evidence. One might expect proof to be presented to a neutral magistrate before the government removes someone from American soil and tosses him into a foreign prison to be tortured. “We wanted more information and we couldn’t get it if we let him go” is a poor substitute for due process.

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    Why Arar Was Tortured | 33 comments (33 topical)
    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    Bush is, a-want-to-be-saddam, it will never work bush, and if you keep going down your evil little road, the people will see you for what you really are. my bush can you tell me if we are at war? if not i can understand your political ideals, but if we are at war and the borders are opened and millions get killed because of your non ideals, you become the enemy of the people, got it bush boy? by the way Liberty and freedom of action mean nothing without jobs and a normal system of justice. bush hates the ideals of justice and jobs for the people.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    Right on Fred...we all know that Bush's wet dream is to treat US citizens the same way he is being allowed to treat foriegners. If that day comes, the MSM and the neocon apologists (you know who you are) will be the primary accomplices. What's the punishment for this type of TREASON?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#3)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    et al - Irrespective of the right or wrong, he was arrested, not kidnapped. Ernesto - I strongly doubt that any neocons of any importance will read your threat. But hey, if it makes you feel better, do it!

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    Jim, I think arrest in this country almost requires the initial hearing within 72 hours in front of a judge. I don't do criminal law, so I am rusty on the nuts and bolts, but there is something called an initial appearance and then an arraignment in front of a judge. These niceties are essential when a person is arrested. Failure to follow these processes change an arrest to a kidnapping. Also, we sent him to Syria. If you got kidnapped or detained by US officials and found yourself on the next plane to Egypt or Uzbekistan or Syria, would you be concerned? We would all miss you and we might even speculate about whether you had been kidnapped or arrested, but we would get over it.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    PPJ...no threat...just a statement of fact. If you see a threat there, then that's your problem, isn't it?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#6)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    Ernesto - Whatever. CA - You would get over it? I am crushed. Yes, crushed. BTW - I have commented I thought what happened to Arar was wrong. And I would still like to know why the RMCP would not take him back when we tried to give him to Canada, before he was sent to his other country of citizenship, Syria. (He has dual citizenship) Since we do know that Canada had some problems with him because he had signed a lease with someone they thought was associated with terrorism, perhaps they didn't want him, and may have said so. Was their information on the other person correct? I don't know. But that undoubtedly increased the pressure on the US.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    I would still like to know why the RMCP would not take him back when we tried to give him to Canada That's not the way it went down. The RCMP was asked by American officials if they intended to charge Arar on his return to Canada. When the Mounties replied that no, they had nothing to charge him with, American officials decided to send him to Syria instead.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    George W. Bush, Torturer in Chief A partial list: 1. An official US military report describes in gruesome detail how two prisoners – Dilawar and Habibulah - in the US Bagram base in Afghanistan were tortured to death - beatings, chaining to the ceiling, denial of water and denial of medical attention. Also in abundance are descriptions of humiliation and torture of other prisoners. 2. Maher Arar, a Canadian, was arrested in New York, shipped to Syria and was tortured there for over 10 months. 3. Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, an American, was arrested in Saudi Arabia at the behest of the U.S. He was imprisoned and tortured there for over a year. 4. Khaled el-Masri, a German, was kidnapped in Macedonia, beaten, shipped to Afghanistan and held there for months. 5. Martin Mubanga, a British citizen, was tortured and smeared with feces in Guantanamo. 6. Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi, was torture to death by soldiers and CIA agents in Abu-Ghraib prison. 7. Sean Baker, an American soldier, was brutally attacked by other soldiers in Guantanamo Bay during a training exercise simulating treatment of prisoners, causing him a brain injury and seizures. 8. Nagem Sadoon Hatab, an Iraqi in a prisoner camp outside Nasiriyah, was found dead shortly after he was dragged some 30 feet by the neck. An Army pathologist who performed the autopsy said Hatab probably died of strangulation caused by a broken bone in his throat. 9. Ayad Alazawi, an Iraqi, died in Abu-Ghraib. His body showed a severe head wound and extensive bruising. 10. Human Rights Watch named 11 terror suspects that have disappeared into the CIA’s secret prison system – there is no way to know how these are treated.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#9)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    pogge - That's not exactly correct. They didn't want to arrest him, but shared their concerns. Read Greg - Hey! You missed one. Nick Berg - Found with head detached.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    pogge - That's not exactly correct. According to testimony at an ongoing public inquiry here, it's exactly correct. That link is to a pdf file of a transcript. See page 38. They didn't want to arrest him, but shared their concerns. Certainly the RCMP had "concerns" about Arar. And they were so eager to share documents with American officials that they violated their own policy in doing so. But you stated previously that the Americans tried to return Arar to Canada and the RCMP wouldn't take him which is ridiculous. If the Americans wanted Arar back in Canada all they had to do was release him and let him get on the flight he'd booked. He was on his way home when he was detained and RCMP agents were waiting at the airport to surveil him when he returned. They expected him to come back.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    Read Greg - Hey! You missed one. Nick Berg - Found with head detached. I don't get it. What are you trying to say? That some Iraqi rebels also kill prisoners? They do. But in what way does this justify torturing Dilawar, Habibulah, Arar, Omar Abu Ali, el-Masri, Mubanga, al-Jamadi, Baker, Hatab, Alazawi and many others?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#12)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    Read Greg writes "I don't get it." Yes, I understand that you don't. That's the problem. pogge - My memory says that when the Americans tried to release him to the Canadians, this was after the US had held for a period of time, Canadian immigration would not let him in, leaving him in a limbo state. At that point the US sent him to Syria.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    Well, PPJ, it appears that you don't understand your argument either.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    But in what way does this justify torturing Dilawar, Habibulah, Arar, Omar Abu Ali, el-Masri, Mubanga, al-Jamadi, Baker, Hatab, Alazawi and many others?
    It makes PPJ feel better?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    What happened to this guy is clearly the fault of liberal canadians. Now it all makes sense. Thanks for straightening all this out for us Jim.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    pogge - My memory says... Your memory is faulty. You'll have to forgive me if I give more weight to dozens of media reports and the testimony of a number of Canadian officials including the Canadian consular official in New York who assured Arar that the Americans couldn't possibly send him to Syria. Canadian immigration officials wouldn't have entered into the discussion. Arar is a citizen. There is much to criticize in the actions of Canadians in the RCMP, CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service) and the Department of Foreign Affairs. But by all accounts, everyone on this side of the border was taken by surprise when Arar ended up in Syria. Everyone on the Canadian side took it for granted that Arar would be released and allowed to return to Canada. He was never regarded by the RCMP as any more than "a peripheral figure or potential witness." To this day he's never been charged with a crime let alone convicted. According to the principles of the justice systems in both our countries, he's an innocent man. And yet he was "rendered" to Syria where he spent nearly a year in prison. Calling it kidnapping sounds about right to me.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#17)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    pogge - Absent a better document on this than what we can provide each other, and given that I have agreed that he should not have been sent to Syria, we are actually arguing over details. But I repeat that I understand that after he had been questioned by the US, he was taken back to Canadian Immigration and, essentially, turned loose to go through immigration and get on a plane to Canada. They refused him entry. The US then sent him to Syria, as he had dual citizenship. CA, Ernesto and Read Greg - Perhaps if you took the time to condemn the actions of the terrorists and were more vocal in support of our winning in Iraq, your complaints about these mostly alleged abuse and torture cases would be met with more favor.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    I have never been less than clear that I condemn the actions of terrorists. All of them, without regard to political stripe. You, Jim, have taken the position that a terrorist who is the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Guess what? I now introduce you to Osama Bin Laden. You and your ilk have found excuses and funding for death squads in the Americas, for bombers, and for jihadists to challenge the Russians in Afghanistan. When the problems from such stupid decisions come home to haunt us, you and your type, select a country like Iraq to invade. Yes, let's all wave the flag with Jim, uberpatriot and clearthinker.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    But I repeat that I understand that after he had been questioned by the US, he was taken back to Canadian Immigration and, essentially, turned loose to go through immigration and get on a plane to Canada. They refused him entry. The US then sent him to Syria, as he had dual citizenship. If true, this has some traction. So, using this citizenship test, why should we not send Luis Posada Carriles right back to Cuba where he was born and thus enjoys citizenship. Nevermind that Syria and Cuba may not welcome these expatriots, may mistreat them, at least we are being consistent, aren't we?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Jim, your "understanding" does not match the facts. I know how inconvenient that can be, but you should review the transcript of the Canadian commission - pages 38-40. The Canadians did not and could not prevent Arer from returning to Canada, they just said that if he was returned, they would not arrest him because they had only suspicions about his connections with militant muslims.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    were more vocal in support of our winning in Iraq,
    What exactly are we trying to win over there, Jim? Contracts? Good work CA...but citing facts to Jim is a complete waste of time, as you well know by now.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    I am an eternal optimist. I always hope that we can start with facts instead of beliefs or understanings, hash out the facts and then apply a rule of law or values to reach conclusions. It's probably one of the reasons that the law appeals to me. It's important to present facts with basis, foundation. And enough facts to support the argument about what the facts mean before launching into the argument. Jim is likely many Americans, not particularly analytical. He confuses facts and beliefs. He like many of his type think that anything they believe strongly must be true. Flat earthers, creationism - whoops, that's intelligent design - Saddam was behind the 911 attacks. True believers, jihadists, not spiritual seekers who listen quietly for the Light and Truth to speak to them.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#23)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    CA - The info you provide matches somewhat. Of course it doeS appear to have some doubt, given that it quotes news articles, etc. But let's say it is accurate. So the US said, take him and arrest him and investigate. And the Canadians refused. So the US sent him to Syria. It occurs to me that the Canadians didn't rise to his defense. I wonder why? As for your snide little remarks, they are typical of an elitist Left, who won't defend the country but who is always there to criticize it. Ernesto - I keep forgetting that you find OBL and our neocons the same.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Jim, here is what you said above: But I repeat that I understand that after he had been questioned by the US, he was taken back to Canadian Immigration and, essentially, turned loose to go through immigration and get on a plane to Canada. They refused him entry. The US then sent him to Syria, as he had dual citizenship. It appears clear to me that your "understanding" was not supported by the facts of the matter. You have tried arguing that he was arrested, not kidnapped. Then that he was sent to Syria because of the Canadians denied him entry and the dual citizenship suggested that Syria, his place of birth was the logical place to send him without regard to whether he would be tortured or perhaps killed in Syria. Yet, you want to do everything in your power (it ain't much, buddy) to see that Posada Carriles is not deported to his country of birth because of your concern for his well-being in Cuba. If your positions and principles are not consistent, then I suggest you are just a political hack with no compelling principles, just your flawed understanding and limited reasoning abilities. Tell us again how they never had it so good as when the muslims got detained by US forces. Simple yes or no answer: if Arer had to be deported to Syria because of his birth citizenship, does Posada Carriles have to be deported to Cuba? Yes or no?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#25)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    CA - Not only NO, but hell NO. You confuse yourself at times by thinking that if all spotted dogs are bad, then we must shoot all spotted dogs. And actually I never thought of myself having any political power whatsoever besides my vote. And trust me on this. I don't think we could ever be buddies. But who knows? You could change. ;-) It is strange that even when I agree with the important parts of something, Arar shouldn't have been sent to Syria, I am attacked for raising some issues and engaging in a debate. Essentially, in this case, I have never understood what Canada didn't intervene. Why they didn't say, "Give us our citizen!" Could it be they were also interested in what Arar "knew?" And what his interest in Afghanistan was? And you want to talk about freedom of speech? I don't think so. I think you want to talk about freedom to agree with you.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    PPJ - having a debate is one thing arguing with someone who just makes crap up and when caught starts moving the goalposts is something else. I don't know why someone as smart as CA wastes bandwidth trying to have a discussion with the likes of you.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    So the US said, take him and arrest him and investigate. And the Canadians refused. So the US sent him to Syria. I see some progress has been made. It occurs to me that the Canadians didn't rise to his defense. I wonder why? So do we. That's why we're having a public inquiry. One that the American government has refused to cooperate with. In fact Canadians did rise to his defence but only at the consular level and that wasn't enough. The Canadian consular official who was the subject of my last link was alerted by someone that Canada should kick the matter upstairs and deal with your Justice Department at a high level. Either it wasn't done, or it wasn't done quickly enough. As I wrote previously, there's plenty to criticize on the Canadian side. That doesn't mean American officials are blameless.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Ernesto - I keep forgetting that you find OBL and our neocons the same.
    Hey could you please explain the difference? I didn't think so.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Well, they both want to make the world 'safe' for theocracy. Regardless of Canada's actions, if the US had a reason to hold Arar, they should charged him, not sent him to a country that they they know tot=rtures people.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Ernesto - Hey, it is your claim, so you get to explain it.
    Only differences I can think of is that the Neocons have killed more people and done more damage to the U.S. economy than Bin Laden.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#30)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Ernesto - Hey, it is your claim, so you get to explain it. pogge - I asked that question months and months ago. SD - Advice from the lovelorn? Hey, you haven't called Bush a war criminal in months. Isn't it time?

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    jim, do you really want to live in a country where you could disappear and never be heard from again based on nothing more than secret evidence and the summary judgement of an anonymous partisan of the state? that is what we have done to our laws here. plain and simple. and out of nothing more than irrationally conflated and misplaced fear. We have become what we despise and worse, becaise we pretend we aren't corrupt, that those unpleasant vanishings only happen to people who MUST have done something wrong in the first place.

    Re: Why Arar Was Tortured (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:30 PM EST
    Dadler... just like the snitch in the movies who sucks up to the antagonists assuming he's one of them - Jim will ultimately be betrayed by the very people he defends. Count on it. And Jim, like the kid who does bad things to get attention, there comes a point when cries of "wolf" are ignored. To quote my favorite response to you... you are once again rendered....irrelevant.

    Why Arar Was Tortured | 33 comments (33 topical)