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Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon May 30, 2005 at 10:02:38 AM EST
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by TChris

A prosecutor's botched cross-examination can be a defense attorney's best friend. Here's a fascinating account of the courts martial trial of Pablo Paredes, who defended his failure to deploy by arguing that he was obliged not to fight an illegal war. Particularly amusing: the prosecution's cross of the defense's expert witness, Marjorie Cohn.

After a 20-30 minute eternity that left us all in a stupor of disbelief that the war's legality had just been debated in a military court, on the record, and had lost, badly, the attorney for the prosecution sat down. And then the judge said, "I believe the government has just successfully proved that any seaman recruit has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."

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    • Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal | 30 comments (30 topical)
    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    "Yes, its Illegal so what", most wars are. the question people should be asking is, "Where is bin laden" Find bin laden end the war, In Fact cut bin laden, head off on TV. You can cross-examination 10 million people and yell at bush but it will not end until people understand that our government made guys like bin laden and let millions of lovers of bin laden and his ideals into this non nation. stop people from coming here and the political problems will end, stop the third world propaganda and you won't have mass murder,but above all hang bush and all will be ok. bush's other names are as follows:Traitor/treachery/disloyalty/treason, but many of you have the same names.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    That's a well reasoned comment

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#3)
    by Peter G on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    I am currently reading a history of the ACLU entitled "Defending Everybody." In the chapter on the Vietnam era, there is an account of the court martial of Capt. Howard Levy, an Army doctor who refused to continue in his assignment of training Green Beret "aidsmen" (medics), because he had become convinced that they were using the training to commit war crimes and assist in South Vietnamese Army torture of prisoners. According to the author, the same thing happened in Levy's court martial as in Paredes's last week, and the presiding officer made more or less the same comment. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    I heard this young man speak at anti war rally. He really has his act together. He got 3 months hard labor and a demotion to Seaman first class. After his time he will be asked to deploy again and if he refuses he will face a general courts martial. It's brave men like this that finally got us the h**l out of Nam because they simply refused to either go or to fight. This is how we will end this current crime. The soldiers, marines, sailors and pilots must simply refuse to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. What are they going to do? Lock up tens of thousands of military for having a conscience?

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#5)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Here is some background on Pablo Paredes: New York meeting supports US sailor who refused orders to Iraq By Jamie Chapman, 5 March 2005 US sailor refuses deployment to Iraq in protest against war By Andrea Peters, 10 December 2004

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#6)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Fred: If I ask "where is bin laden", am I allowed to use capitals and puncuation? Or do I ask in your words? Che: What rank is Seaman First Class in the US Navy? Never heard of it. Let me get this straight, he signed up for college never figuring the military would be in a war during his time in? He should not bet at Las Vegas. Never mind the fact the closest he would probably get to combat is in port in Bahrain, shopping at the souq for carpets and dickering with my favorite Iranian pistachio vender.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Wile, I misstated his rank. Sorry. He signed up to defend the country. That is not what this war is about. But please, feel free to diss our military all you want.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#8)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    To, Wile E. Coyote don't ask don't tell, its the bush way, say nothing or we will all be hang in the town square as racists against bush and business, read sec.802/p.a., remember a lawyer a day keeps the jail house away, but in my case the jail house is my home. help!

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#9)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Che: Where'd I dis the military? I've been in the Navy the past 23 years, 11 months, and lived in the ME for over a year. I think I know how close he would get to the action. Fire away.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Wile, do you think the issue for this young man was how close to the hostilities he was going to be? That's not what I got from his actions and statements, but if you want to ascribe cowardice and lying behavior to him, you can. That seems to be dissing this young man in uniform to me and any other soldier who suddenly understands that they have just been given an illegal order. I think Auschwitz is down the road a ways.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#11)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    CA: Point out where I said he was a coward or a liar. Point it out! And then point out the illegal order given to him. I would say he guessed wrong if he thought he was going to go through his enlistment without a war.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Wile, Never mind the fact the closest he would probably get to combat is in port in Bahrain, shopping at the souq for carpets and dickering with my favorite Iranian pistachio vender Hey, you're in the service, but you have a peculiar idea of unity. But hey, you're in the service so diss your fellow servicemen all you want. I guess it's not my place to stand up for one of your own.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    That meant that someone else had to do his job, whatever that was. If combat was involved, someone else took his risks. He not only failed to fufill his contract, he failed his country, the Navy, and his shipmates. Of all his failures, the last is the worst. On ships, in airplanes and in small combat units, each person must be able to depend on the other. The Navy is being far too easy on him.
    Wow, think about it... if this was 1973 you would be saying the same things about Lt. G.W. Bush. Maybe this dude is presidential material, eh PPJ? Or maybe Lt. Bush was a conscientious objector?

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    Wile, Where are you stationed (generally)? Are you part of the war effort? What is your justification for the war in Iraq and your role (if any) in it?

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#17)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    grad student nope! only about the invasion of Iraq

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#12)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    et al - It is amazing how these folks only discover their opposition after they are asked to do something that might be a small bit inconvenient. In case you folks don't understand, what he did was miss a movement. That meant that someone else had to do his job, whatever that was. If combat was involved, someone else took his risks. He not only failed to fufill his contract, he failed his country, the Navy, and his shipmates. Of all his failures, the last is the worst. On ships, in airplanes and in small combat units, each person must be able to depend on the other. The Navy is being far too easy on him.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Also of interest: the judge put the Kosovo and Afghanistan conflcts in the same context....do any of the ardent leftists on this site feel as strongly about the illegality of the Kosovo offensive ordered by Clinton? The objectivitymeter is at an all-time low.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    grad student, i'm as lefty as they come and i can comfotably say clinton was the single most disappointing president of my lifetime. now, it wasn't ENTIRELY his doing (the prurient fascination with his personal sexual dysfuntion being a contributing factor, and a right wing smear machine as powerful as and dem president has faced), but i will say the massive bombing of belgrade was a travesty. as was the entire conflict. europe, first and foremost, must take the blame for that since it was happening in their own back yard. but we came in too late, with too little imagination, and too much violence. also, and clinton has admitted this, his and our failure to step into rwanda and prevent that genocide, or at least help lessen it greatly, will stand as a testement to our utterly hypocritical stand on "human rights". now, if you want to put bush's record of "successes" against clinton's, go ahead. as badly as clinton stumbled and allowed his dysfunction to dominate his presidency, bush makes clinton look like president washington lincoln roosevelt.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#19)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    @grad student: After the Slaughter: Political Lessons of the Balkan War By David North, 14 June 1999 Why is NATO at war with Yugoslavia? World power, oil and gold Statement of the Editorial Board of the World Socialist Web Site, 24 May 1999

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#20)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Che: He does not deserve any unity from me anymore. He needs to tell us: -The name of the man or woman who had to be pulled from their family to replace him on the ship. -Where was he when his ship spent six weeks at Tsumani relief. He would have had more direct effect on that.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#21)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Ernesto - Good try at a strawman. Bush was in TANG. He received permission for what he did. Paredes did not. Even though I have personal doubts about your ability to think logically, I trust you can understand the difference.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Well, Jim, the evidence suggests that GW was in TANG some of the time and awol some of the time. And there are questions about how he got into TANG when other people his age could not and were getting drafted and sent to Vietnam. Act of conscience on this young man's part to refuse to take any more part in the service of the country based on his assessment of the legality of the orders given to him. Too bad more Germans did not act on their conscience back in 1939-1941 when the German armies were overrunning Europe in a war of aggression. I think there is no doubt that given the history of hostilities in Europe and the growing military power of countries like Denmark, Holland, France and their activities to amass weapons of mass destruction that a case could have been made that Germany's war was really a preemptive strike against countries who intended to do them harm. We need all the conscience we can get in this world.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#26)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Che - I didn't make the charge, just noted that it existed and would be violently opposed by Clinton's fans. But I think I have posted it several times in the past.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Ernesto - He was offically what? Surely you aren't still trying to sell that story are you?
    He was busted for being AWOL and missing a drug test (gee, I wonder why he skipped out on the drug test). He was grounded from flying. Hey check this out... "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." -Colin Powell from "My American Journey" Then he goes to work for Bush and Cheney. Go figure.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:30 PM EST
    Ernesto - Good try at a strawman. Bush was in TANG. He received permission for what he did.
    Then why did he get officially reprimanded for it? And we both know that someone else had to go fight in SE Asia because his old man pulled strings for him. Maybe if Paredes' dad had some political pull you would be supporting him rather than calling him a traitor? Your bluff and bluster about "duty, honor, country" is exposed as BS once you start defending draft dodgers like Bush and Cheney based on your partisan political leanings.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#24)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:31 PM EST
    Ernesto - He was offically what? Surely you aren't still trying to sell that story are you? And be careful when you start using the words, "Draft Dodger." Millions of Demo Clinton lovers will rain on your parade. Ernesto, the fact is this man did what I said he did. I hope he refuses the second time, and I hope they give him a General Courts Martial with all that means. CA - Was it only yesterday that you were blathering about law and facts? And why are you guys trying to hijack the thread into a Bush attack vehicle? Answer is, you have no defense for what this guy did.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:31 PM EST
    Jim, Clinton and Cheney both had legal deferments. How is one a draft dodger and the other not?

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#28)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    Jim, Remember that even Sgt. York considered getting out of the army on CO grounds. I am sure that you know how that story turned out. Let's wait and see what happens on this one

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#29)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    Ernesto - You know nothing of military aviation, etc. Bush skipped the physical because he wasn't going to continue to fly. Catch a clue. If you are not going to fly, you don't take a physical. You also don't do the two days of other quals that are involved. Trust me on this. They are a pain in the patuit. As for the AWOL bit, Rathergate pretty well dispelled all such BS. Bring this up sometimes on an Open Thread and I will be glad to educate you. Roger - Nice thought, but this guy couldn't carry York's ammo. We know how it is going to turn out.

    Re: Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    Ernesto - You know nothing of military aviation, etc. Bush skipped the physical because he wasn't going to continue to fly. Catch a clue. If you are not going to fly, you don't take a physical. You also don't do the two days of other quals that are involved. Trust me on this. They are a pain in the patuit.
    Oh please...I know Navy aviators and the first thing they will tell you is that you don't miss a physical and get an official reprimand in order to be grounded. Did you ever do that, Jim? No, you did NOT, because if you did your ass would be toast if you didn't have an important last name.
    As for the AWOL bit, Rathergate pretty well dispelled all such BS.
    Perhaps in your own mind it did Jim, but that is a very small and restricted space. In the real world, it did about as much to dispel the AWOL issue as the Newsweak flap did to dispel the torture issue, i.e., nada.

    Military Lawyer Proves Iraq War is Illegal | 30 comments (30 topical)