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Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean

Democrats need to remember that the enemy is not in here with us, it is outside the room. Dissing the Chair of the DNC is not the way for Dems to unify and take back the country.

Joe Biden today:

Dean “doesn't speak for me with that kind of rhetoric and I don't think he speaks for the majority of Democrats.”

What Howard Dean said:

While discussing the hardship of working Americans standing in long lines to vote, Dean said Thursday, “Republicans, I guess, can do that because a lot of them have never made an honest living in their lives.” Dean said later his comments did not refer to hard-working Americans, but rather to the failure of Republican leadership to address working-class concerns.

John Edwards on Dean:

Dean “is not the spokesman for the party.”

Karen Finley, spokesperson for the Dems:

At times we may have disagreements in our party, just as Republicans have disagreements, but as Democrats we are unified in our efforts to get our country back on track.”

A better way is to expose the extremism of Republicans, like James Dobson, who compared the Supreme Court to the KKK, or Pat Robertson who said the judges are worse than terrorists who fly airplanes into buildings. Or John Cronyn who tried to explain the murder of Judges by referencing their lack of accountability and Tom DeLay who threatened revenge on judges in the Terri Schiavo case. Examples:

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay tries to bully judges with threats of impeachment or elimination of funding. "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior," said the Sugar Land exterminator, referring to judges who refused to rend the Constitution in the Terry Schiavo feeding tube drama.

From the floor of the Senate, Texas Sen. John Cornyn would infer that the recent murders of judges and courthouse violence are related to frustration over the "lack of accountability" of judges. Not only is that patent demagoguery utterly divorced from the details of that violence, it would abrogate the checks and balances of the three branches of government in attempting to make judges susceptible to political pressure instead of accountable to the Constitution and the rule of law.

AmericaBlog has much more, here and here.

Update: Another example of bad inter-party policy: Former DNC Chair contender Donnie Fowler tonight reportedly threw a punch at Swing State Project's Bob Brigham and missed - due to the Swing State blog's criticism of Fowler during the Chair campaign. As Sean Paul at Agonist says,

I'm tired of Clintonian triangulation. I'm tired of not winning elections. I'm tired of being Republican lite! (Tastes like crap and makes you fat.) I want a party that fights! Although not necessarily one that throws, er, punches!

Digby weighs in as well.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#1)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Why not just form a new party already? Is it cuz you feel you need the Dem brand name since Leftie ideas are not really saleable on their own? Or is it cuz you can't find a candidate to match the charisma and electability of a John Kerry or an Al gore? This is a serious q, btw, not a taunt. It's pretty clear that the Dems have major cracks within them (the R's have some of their own, tho smaller). If you feel your ideas are overwhelmingly better, what's holding you back already? You'll never get a better time than right now, when there won't even be an incumbent running for the White House next time.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Didn't Rush Limbaugh say just last week that making voting day a national holiday wouldn't really help the Democrats since most people who vote Democrat are unemployed? Could it be that Dean had that comment in mind when he made his? Why is it that Democrats are more bothered by Dean's comment about Republicans than they are by Limbaugh's comment about Democrats? But I'm still waiting for a party that advocates liberal policies. A centrist party that's scared of its own shadow just doesn't cut it. And liberal ideas are sellable, when they're being advocated by liberals who actually understand them. Democrats are stupid. Republicans are stupid and mean. I'm so tired of voting for the least dangerous choice.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Ras' dishonest, smart-allick propaganda has been toned down since the election. Leads me to believe that he and others from the noise machine have no interest in any discourse, only disruption. Others: Something tells me that Dean has been setup to play the liberal "bad cop" within the party. It sounds contrived to me - just as I am now convinced that his candidacy was: designed to fail from the beginning. I am unsure as to whether the Democratic Party can be fixed from within and I disagree with Talk Left that Liberals/Progressives should ban together with Corporatist Moderates under the Democratic Flag with the absent minded lock step solidarity that the Republican constituencies have acheived. I have no desire to be a lemming following the lead idiot - especially a lead idiot who willingly sells out progressive votes to the highest Corporate bidder. I also hate proto-fascisti, but perhaps America needs to be slapped in its face by the product of its own short-sightedness before any real change can occur.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#4)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    You gotta admire Dean. The guy just keeps on screwing up and screwing up, yet the Demos continue to let him play on the major league team. He`must have photos on a lot of people.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Obviously to anyone with a brain, the "product" I am referring to is another manufactured/artificial victory by the Republicans in '08.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Allen, >>Why is it that Democrats are more bothered by Dean's comment about Republicans than they are by Limbaugh's comment about Democrats? Limbaugh doesn't have an official position in the Republican Party. He's an entertainer. If the Republicans gave an official platform to such a loose cannon, they would be as stupid as the Democrats are for giving the platform to Dean.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#7)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Actually Tampa, I raised the issue in all sincerity. Give the tribalism a rest for a moment and consider: If a 3rd party is to start up, and if it is to be taken seriously, it prob needs to win the presidency. Winning hundreds of other seats, be they congressional districts, or be they senatorial seats, is a long hard slog, which is not the kind of catalyst the 3rd party would need. But winning the presidency takes them only one strong candidate/campaign to put themselves on the electoral map. The time is now, when there will be no incumbent. If there were an incumbent R, the soft Left would rally against him, leaving no room for a 3rd party candidate. simiar to last year. If there were an incumbent D, they would rally to prevent the R from taking the D's office. Either way, the rest of the Left is squeezed out by the squishy middle. Now is your time to run a 3rd pary candidate - if you're serious, that is. I repeat, that's not a taunt, just an observation. A non-incumbent presidential election is, historically, pretty much a once in a lifetime event. You get one chance in your time on this earth, and one only. I'm Canadian. We occaionally wipe parties right off the map in a single election, which is a feature (if that's the right word) of the parliamentary system. But in the US, with a staggered slate of elections, it's way tougher; you gotta make a splash right from the get go. The Presidential election of '08 is your once in a lifetime chance. You can already see McCain and maybe even Lieberman positioning themselves for this. What are you gonna do?

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#8)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    Wow, PPJ, thanks for telling us what Fox News says so we don't have to watch. Only a Republican could call a politician speaking the truth a screw-up.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#9)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    And for the record, I don't think Tom Delay has made an honest living, and I don't think all his Republican lobbyists currently running Congress have either. Ditto for our President whose businesses never seemed to make a dime until the Saudis gave them money. Do explain how Christ-like all these business practices are, Jim. (At least Bush is working hard clearing brush on the fake ranch, though.)

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#10)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:44 PM EST
    scar - If Dean didn't exist the Repubs would have to invent him. Stop with the rant for a moment, and consider. Each party has a base. To keep the base in a white hot fever it is necessary that they be poked every now and them. This poking typically involves politicians saying unreasonable things. Which has a tendancy to turn of the "middle." Now to win an election you must get enough votes from the middle to add to your base. Dean, and the Hollywood'ers, do that for the Repubs. So they don't have to do anything except point out the nonsense coming from these folks. pigwiggle
    "A non-incumbent presidential election is, historically, pretty much a once in a lifetime event. You get one chance in your time on this earth, and one only."
    I agree with your "do it now" comment, but we have had lots of elections in which we didn't have an incumbent President running. 2000, 1988, 1968, 1960, 1952... I'll stop there..Matter of fact, 8 years is the maximum time between having non-incumbents run.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#11)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:44 PM EST
    PPJ, Actually, that was me, not pigwiggle, who made the comment. However, if he's younger and better looking than I, you are welcome to continue the confusion. By "non-incumbent" I was referring to both the Pres and Vice-Pres, btw; I oughtta have mentioned that. The oops is mine. The q is still valid, tho: why aren't the Left forming a 3rd party? They're not gonna get another chance like this again.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    Loved Digby's "rich old biddies" comment. I've used that for years about those two, and others. PPJ, your question, "why aren't the left forming a third party", is a good one. The main problem I see is ballot access. The two major parties have done much to stop this. Maybe the real Progressive wing of the Democratic party could shake things up, but some of us have switched over to the Greens, and are committed to their ideals. What would a joining of true Progressives and Greens look like? I'm being serious here. I've thought about, and can't get a good idea of the result. It is a thought, though.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    Biden and Edwards DON'T speak to me or FOR me either. They have no idea of what the majority of Dems think or want. Dean is so much more in touch. if the DLC line continues to hold in the Democratic Party, they will see the MAJORITY of Dems who are pissed off LEAVE in the next election. I really don't know if I can vote for Democrat like Clinton who supports the Iraqi Invasion and Occupation and dances on the line of pro-choice (despite what her legislative aides say).

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    I don't agree that some Dems should break off and try to form a third party. In my opinion, that's the way to guarantee at least another four years of Republican government. If the Dems can't even win an election as one party, why should they be able to win as half a party? I'm not Howard Dean's biggest fan, but as a Democrat, I've just learned to take him with a grain of salt. As DNC chair, at least he won't be running for president again.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#15)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    ras, or pigwiggle, excuse me. But either way, unless you are a member of the more deadly of the species, appearance is mox nix to me. And you have to go back to '52 to find an election where a Pres or VP was not involved, so it is rare.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    nc dem: you don't agree that troll Jim and troll RAS's idea that Dems for a new party is a good idea? Wow. Get right on spreading your noble contradiction to the HIJACKING OF THIS THREAD. Liars.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:46 PM EST
    I'm no big fan of Dean's tenure, but he's got more life and game than Edwards and Biden times ten.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Edwards has a clarification statement here. I really like both Edwards and Dean so I'm glad they appear to be on the same side. Meanwhile, you see things like:
    "He was gratuitously insulting 50 million Americans who call themselves Republicans, some of whom we hope will vote Democrat," says Democratic consultant David Axelrod.
    A clear repetition of GOP talking points.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    I can't help but believe that the Dems will let the good doctor toss his red meat to the far left of the party for another year or so. When he has become overextended the leading candidate, probably Sen Clinton, will attack him and force his removal and then install someone who can help her campaign in 2008. In other words she will pretend to be the savior of the party by wresting control back from the far left fringe. She will look moderate in contrast to Dean's apoplectic demeanor and she will do a fake to the middle in an attempt to appear as a moderate which she surely is not. I rather doubt she can succeed with this in the general election but she will look strong coming out of the convention. As far as a third party is involved it is unlikely that it could get any traction afterall I believe the last time a third party won the presidency was Abraham Lincoln for the then new Republican party. T. Roosevelt tried it with the Bull-Moose party and he lost although he was a rather popular ex-president at the time. George Wallace as well as the Dixecrats found out the same thing. The Democrats need to be reformed from within but if those who want reform jump ship then the party will continue to meander with no true/new vision. It will need all the help it can get from within but alas I don't see that happening until the likes of Kennedy, Byrd and Reid are retired. Overall it should be very interesting to see how and if this all resolves itself.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Please stop trying to bait people into pulling another Ralph Nadir maneuver, thank you. Why don't the right take your advice and start a third party instead? THIS IS THEIR BIG CHANCE! Doofus.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Trolls. TS: "perhaps America needs to be slapped in its face by the product of its own short-sightedness before any real change can occur." Which is Leftist theory at its worst. Do you really believe that pain, suffering, and sorrow produces democracy or change? The suffering we are likely to do (a terrorist attack) will produce MORE fascism and MORE destruction of the Constitution. Are you really that desperate, that you think the population in general should suffer for the actions of a few? It's bigotry, dressed up as political opinion. And it's real politik. It plays games with people's life, just like Bush. Ras, Ed, and the others have gone completely over into troll status, not that they ever weren't. They hijack the threads. In the case of ras, he is invading every thread in order to spread his idiotic 'new party' nonsense, which is NOTHING other than an attempt to derail the topic, the definition of trollery. Posted by nc dem: "If the Dems can't even win an election as one party," The Dems have won BOTH presidential elections in the last five years. We no longer have a legal election system. 30 states have NO recount rights. We paid for the court-ordered, legal, pending recount of Ohio ($125,000), and Bush's campaign chair/Ohio's SecState BLOCKED THE RECOUNT, because they know they lost the state, and thereby the election. None of that will change until the electronic vote-fraud companies are driven from our shores in tar and feathers.

    Re: Biden and Edwards Criticize Dean (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Oh, I forgot, GO DEAN! Chew those bad doggies a new airhole.